The solution I propose is to make magazines abstract as well. In movies and television, we often see heroes shoot several times, even though only a few shots actually hit. My solution is as follows:
Characters have an "ammo pool" (most easily represented by a die showing the current number of rounds left). The pool is reduced by one per round, unless the character scores a critical hit that round. Suggested ammo pools are shown below, based on magazine capacity.
Feats that result in extra bullet consumption cause the same drain to the ammo pool.
Most of this was thought up in the last 30 minutes, so please help me make this work.
I realize that this may not be great for all groups, but I believe it would at least help my group give better descriptions of their actions (since they'll feel that they can narrate losing shooting multiple times).
EDIT: The character can also spend an action point to not drain his ammo pool for one round/encounter, provided the ammo pool is currently above zero.
So basically, you're coming up with a mechanic that allows you to describe taking multiple shots and expending only one bullet, yes? My question is: why not just do that with the system we have now? It makes no mechanical difference whatsoever.
I wouldn't really have a problem with abstracting ammunition. In fact, I consider the "1 attack = 1 bullet" to be the root cause of dissatisfaction some have with d20 Modern firearms.
Ask any GM or player and I am sure they will agree that it's OK to spend more bullets per attack, adding flavour rather than effect. And they'll even play along up to the point where they realise that flavor is going to have an adverse effect on their characters' perfomance: they are running out of ammo. Then it's back to counting beans.
I'll give this some thought and see if can come up with anything reasonable.
-DF
This option allows your players to make more shots per round than attacks, without said shots simply being wasted. It also makes feats like Quick Reload matter for people who aren't firing single-round bolt-action rifles, as their magazine-fed weapons will start to run out more quickly.
While it's an interesting idea, I prefer to go with the houserule that you can spend more than one bullet per attack to increase your accuracy. +1 for each additional round fired -up to your base attack bonus- per attack. Fully-automatic weapons should probably be able to get off more shots than semi-automatic weapons per attack, or possibly gain a better bonus to accuracy for each bullet expended as the rounds are being fired more rapidly than your average guy could fire them.
This option allows your players to make more shots per round than attacks, without said shots simply being wasted. It also makes feats like Quick Reload matter for people who aren't firing single-round bolt-action rifles, as their magazine-fed weapons will start to run out more quickly.
That's a really cool house rule that I hadn't heard before. I think I may borrow it.
I would consider suggesting it as a feat:
Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +2
Benefit: You can add a +2 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least double the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
Special: This feat is available as a bonus feat for the Fast Hero and the Charismatic hero.
Improved Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Spray and Pray
Benefit: You can add a +3 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least three times the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
Advanced Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +8, Spray and Pray, Improved Spray and Pray
Benefit: You can add a +4 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least four times the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
-DF
So you don't have a problem with the players doubling their BAB, then?
Nope. If they're dumb enough to double their BAB every time (particularly at high levels), they're going to be running out of ammunition pretty quickly. Reloading takes time, unless someone spends a feat on Quick Reload (which needed love anyway), so any PC who makes liberal use of this rule (doubling BAB every time) is going to find himself reloading every two or three rounds. Eventually he'll run out of prepared clips. Sometime after that, he's going to run out of bullets altogether.
If they start carrying around Rambo-style bandoleers of ammunition, start telling them how much it contributes to their encumbrance (make up a reasonable number).
I would consider suggesting it as a feat:
Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +2
Benefit: You can add a +2 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least double the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
Special: This feat is available as a bonus feat for the Fast Hero and the Charismatic hero.
Improved Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +4, Spray and Pray
Benefit: You can add a +3 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least three times the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
Advanced Spray and Pray
Prerequisites: BAB +8, Spray and Pray, Improved Spray and Pray
Benefit: You can add a +4 firepower bonus to your ranged attack roll with a personal firearm if you fire at least four times the number of bullets as normally required.
Normal: You gain no benefits to your ranged attacks simply by firing more bullets than the minimum number required.
-DF
Meh. If it works for you, then do it. I'd rather have the houserule I mentioned available to anyone who picks up a gun, or maybe is proficient with it. The worst it could get, and this is a ridiculous example, is someone with twenty BAB firing twenty-one times to gain an additional +20 bonus to attack for a single hit of 2d8+3 (assuming he's using a fully masterwork +damage assault rifle). Sweet! The shot hit! ... but now he's out 2/3 of his clip if he's using an M16/M4, if not his whole clip (if he's using something else) and may need to reload before he makes anymore attacks.
If he does something like that with a double-tap, he's still only getting 3d8+3 at an additional +18 to attack, or 4d8+3 at an additional +16 assuming he has the clip-size to pull off either of these.
It isn't as though he could do something like Power Attack with his bullet, and sacrifice his BAB while relying on the additional bonus. Even if he did, it'd still be a waste...
If they start carrying around Rambo-style bandoleers of ammunition, start telling them how much it contributes to their encumbrance (make up a reasonable number)
back when me & the dinosaurs were in the army,
"standard load" = a thirty in the well, plus 2 pouches on the LBE with 3 thirtys each
plus maybe a bandoleir or two, depending on resuply times / mission duration
I only kept 25 in a Thirty, but that still added up to a lot of walking around ammo
(and yet, always seemed like not enough once it became TriggerTime )
back when me & the dinosaurs were in the army,
"standard load" = a thirty in the well, plus 2 pouches on the LBE with 3 thirtys each
plus maybe a bandoleir or two, depending on resuply times / mission duration
I only kept 25 in a Thirty, but that still added up to a lot of walking around ammo
(and yet, always seemed like not enough once it became TriggerTime )
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't quite catch what you're trying to say here.
Was your point about being able to carry lots of ammo, or how quickly it disappeared? Or did you just want an excuse to talk about back in the day? :P
Sounds nice. That gives you, what, 21 rounds of autofire? Two and a half minutes including reload times. Nice quick firefight.
Or, it becomes 70 rounds of three-round bursts.
This idea strains my disbelief suspenders. By default, an unfeated human should be able to do anything a normal human can do in real life. This should be a combat option along the lines of disarm or bull rush. Those don't require feats to do either.
That touches slightly on one of my issues with some 3e feats and a lot of 4e powers - the idea that if you don't have a feat/power for it, it can't be done. I strongly belief that if a normal real person can do it, a character can do it without feats.
Traveller d20 has something similar to spray and pray btw, except it isn't a feat - anyone can do it. The only real limitation is the rate of fire (and magazine) of the weapon.
It isn't as though he could do something like Power Attack with his bullet, and sacrifice his BAB while relying on the additional bonus. Even if he did, it'd still be a waste...
And a measly four extra bullets negates the entire penalty for using Burst Fire.
Don't get me wrong: The players are going to love this house rule.
-DF
Or did you just want an excuse to talk about back in the day?
d'oh... am I that transparent? ;)
Just saying that the PCs that want to increase their spray to ~5 per attack
still have lots of ammo in a standard load, compared to a guy with 2 spare 9mm mags in an armpit.
By default, an unfeated human should be able to do anything a normal human can do in real life. This should be a combat option along the lines of disarm or bull rush. Those don't require feats to do either.
I agree, you should be able to do it, but do it better when Feated.
If we just extend the d20 doubling rules to Rounds Per Attack as 'normal':
Std# = +0 ToHit
2x = +1
4x = +2
8x = +3
and change the posted Spray & Pray feat 'normal' section to show that
Feated +2 is 2x, unfeated +2 is 4x
Feated +4 is 4x, unfeated +4 is 16x ammo spent
Like CMA & Brawl, you choose which way you want to attack, not stack them
There's some great work by backstabbist in this thread regarding autofire
huh?
Can you put a page# or post#, we kinda rambled on in that thread
re: spray and pray
This idea strains my disbelief suspenders. By default, an unfeated human should be able to do anything a normal human can do in real life. This should be a combat option along the lines of disarm or bull rush. Those don't require feats to do either.
Well, that certainly makes sense if you see feats mainly serving the purpose of proficiencies - e.g. the attack of opportunity you provoke when making a Bull Rush represents a kind of non-proficient penalty and Improved Bull Rush makes you "proficient".
However, a number of feats allow you to earn a game-mechanical benefit for something that would otherwise just be flavor text. Describing a character as "putting his weight into the attack" doesn't mean it affects attack rolls or damage unless he is actually using Power Attack. Without the feat it's just a normal attack.
Spray and Pray is conceptually similar to Double-Tap and Burst-Fire in allowing you to gain a beneficial effect from what would otherwise be just flavour text.
-DF
I agree, you should be able to do it, but do it better when Feated.
If we just extend the d20 doubling rules to Rounds Per Attack as 'normal':
Std# = +0 ToHit
2x = +1
4x = +2
8x = +3
and change the posted Spray & Pray feat 'normal' section to show that
Feated +2 is 2x, unfeated +2 is 4x
Feated +4 is 4x, unfeated +4 is 16x ammo spent
Like CMA & Brawl, you choose which way you want to attack, not stack them
I've always figured d20M to use the following formula:
Quantity x2 = +2 to the d20 roll
So, what's the effect of non-proficient use of Double-Tap, Burst-Fire and Power Attack "manuevers"?
-DF
(not word for word... I'm too lazy to retype exactimundo)
Damage reduction by AR: Each point of Armour rating (AR) reduces teh damge done by one die. Roll teh damage first, then remove a number of dice equal to the AR, lowest rolls first. If the AR is equal to or greater than the number of damage dice, do not remove the last damage die. Instead, each remaining point of AR reduces total damage by one point. This can rduce damage to zero.
Conversion note for AR: As an approximation, divide the AC bonus by 3 to get the AR for body armours.
Burst Fire: As a standard action, fire multiple shots.
* 1 shot: +0 attack, +0 damage dice
* 3 shots: +1 attack, +1 damage dice
* 4 shots: +2 attack, +2 damage dice
* 10 shots: +3 attack, +3 damage dice
* 20 shots: +5 attack, +5 damage dice
* 100 shots: +10 attack, +10 damage dice
(These numbers are presumably based off specific weapon designs in T20. They probably coudl do with re-calibrating for any decent weapons design system. They also assume teh weapon has at least one automatic fire mode).
Suppressive Fire: Full-round action, requires a weapon that has at least one automatic fire mode. Any creature that is exposed (not in 100% hard cover), within the first range increment, and within 5 squares of the character's 90-degree front arc is a viable target.
If the RoF is 10+, the range limit is 40 feet and upto the second range increment. Targets beyond the basic range but within this extended range are atatcked at -8 instead of -4.
Beyond this range, any viable target within a 40-foot wide path out to the range of the weapon can be subject to an attack roll at -10 penalty.
The total number of attack rolls that can be made is equal to half the number of bullets used. Each viable target is only subject to a single attack roll. If there are not enough viable targets, excess shots are wasted (although they may still contribute to bonus damage dice).
* RoF 3-4: -4 attack roll, +0 damage dice
* RoF 10: -4 attack roll, +1 damage dice
* RoF 20: -4 attack roll, +2 damage dice
* RoF 100: -4 attack roll, +4 damage dice
There are no new feats T20 that relate to ranged combat, beyond those in the MSRD. Essentially, burst fire is something anyone can do. It's the original point and click user interface, after all.
DR by AR: I like this, but it changes the dynamics of armour greatly. No need to change it, but I expect big debates over whether to implement it at all.
Burst fire: RoF for a lot of guns would need to be defined in order to implement this. It seems like Double Tap (and certainly Burst Fire) is subsumed into this in T20, removing the feats from existence. I'd make this attack default to a -4 attack penalty and half the number of bonus damage dice. the feat would remove both penalties. Maximum rate of fire is still subject to the limitations of the actual gun used.
Suppressive Fire: This obviously replaces the autofire rules. I'd make the attack roll penalty equal to -4, with an additional -2 per range increment, to keep it simple. I'd also add in a note that any new viable target that appears before the start of your next turn inside that danger zone may be subject to an attack roll if you still have any remaining attacks available. A "Suppression Fire" feat would enable the bonus damage dice; without the feat, any successful attack would deal only the regular damage.
And a measly four extra bullets negates the entire penalty for using Burst Fire.
Don't get me wrong: The players are going to love this house rule.
-DF
Let's look at this a little:
Assuming a burstfire weapon, you expend 3 rounds minimum to activate the feat. Since the PC is using a weapon with a burst setting, he's only going to be able to use 3 or 6 more bullets to increase his accuracy. I mean it doesn't make sense to gain additional accuracy for one attack type if you're not using the same firing mode for all shots, right?
So now you have a level 4 Strong guy with an M16 expending 9 rounds to negate the penalty from burst fire. Great! He can do that a grand total of three times per clip. Assuming he even lands those shots.
Now let's look at the AK47. He's firing full-auto for his burst-fire ability, so off the bat he's using 5 rounds instead of 3. Now add in the 4 extra rounds and you get 9 again. Once more, he can only do this three times before he has to switch clips - though he and the M16 guy do have enough ammo for one normal burst-fire left over.
So in three rounds your assault-rifle guy has possibly hit/downed three smalltime enemies, or concentrated fire on a bigger threat. Now he has to reload if he's going to keep up the same rate of fire. That's one clip down the drain, out of - let's assume he's an actual soldier and go with backstabbist's numbers - seven-ish. He can go on like this for another 21 combat rounds, making one attack per round, before he's completely out of ammunition.
And you know what? The guy's he's shooting at can do the exact same thing with their guns. Cover just got a whole lot more important.
That said, the houserule certainly isn't finished. Before I would implement it into any of my games, I'd have to polish it. Perhaps I'd restrict the potential just a little and rule that the highest bonus you could possibly gain from extra rounds would be 1/2 your BAB. That way a strong hero has to be level 8 before he can negate a burstfire's penalty, and everyone else needs to be over level 10.
Of course this makes Strong Hero the best marksman... again... but that already needed fixing.