I hope this letter finds you well and in good health. My name is Eric Willhelm and on the Wizards COMmunity site my user name is Trappedslider. I am writing you on behalf of the D20 Modern fanbase and community.
Currently the line up for products includes a retooling of Gamma World using the 4th edition rules set from D&D, along with the addition of using random booster packs. Now this has caused a general reaction among of the fans of D20 modern as causing panic that when or if a future version of d20 modern comes out it will include those things.
Back on D&D game day in 2008 during an interview with Mike Lescault on the podcast show “Gamer Radio Zero” he asked you about future plans for D20 modern, and you responded by acknowledging that Wizards of the Coast would be looking to bring out a new edition of D20 modern in 2009. It is currently 2010 and as of this letter there has not be any news regarding an update for D20 modern. Is d20 modern no longer on the horizon?
We also shouldn't be surprised if the answer to this letter is either silence or, not to put too find a point on it, more vague promises that they don't really know if they can keep. See, they like our loyalty, but they don't particularly want to sink money into a line that failed once. I don't see that they have any motivation to tell us the truth, other than professional ethics, of course, but those don't really exist in capitalism.
Understandably, you might believe that it is an old system, that with the launch of the SAGA System and also the Fourth Edition. But well, the fans (hard-core, us all) do not want the game to go.
Heck, we want you to expand on it. Bring back more Alternity stuff. Made an add-on (a web enhancement, anything) for Gamma World for D20M. Make more worlds for it.
Understandably, much research might bring up the fact that it might be a low-sales thing or something, but again, heck-we are HARD CORE FANS (and this is ennunciated for a reason) and we WILL buy whatever you make for it. This is a fact, this is an oath.
Also I'd like to point out Perkins didn't say WotC would be doing anything in 2009, he said they might look into it in 2009. Small difference that means a lot in BS corporate spin.
I agree with Orion 100%.
Also I'd like to point out Perkins didn't say WotC would be doing anything in 2009, he said they might look into it in 2009. Small difference that means a lot in BS corporate spin.
I went with the word "would" simply because it sounded better...
We might want to explain why, despite all their positive-sounding rhetoric, we don't like the idea of booster packs, although I don't expect to get any answer other than some ad-copy that tells us why we ought to like them.
If you could give me a summery,lol i'm horriable at doing that type of thing, right now all i can think of is "We don't want to play Modern The gathering"
We also shouldn't be surprised if the answer to this letter is either silence or, not to put too find a point on it, more vague promises that they don't really know if they can keep. See, they like our loyalty, but they don't particularly want to sink money into a line that failed once. I don't see that they have any motivation to tell us the truth, other than professional ethics, of course, but those don't really exist in capitalism.
I'm not really expecting anything but I enjoy typing letters to game companies on issues that are clsoe to me.
My core dislike is that this is false marketing of sorts. Wizards is trying to market a TCG as a roleplaying game which at the same time they are trying to pass off as part of D&D, despite having nothing to do with Dungeons nor Dragons.
You have to choose one, you can't have it both ways and make people happy. I like my TCGs to be TCGs and my Pen and Paper games to be Pen and Paper games. If i wanted to play with cards i would play one of the many TCGs available out there.
Being someone who plays both, RPGs and TCGs, i can clearly see where the line is drawn and how different both are. Not just in mechanics, but also in the mindset and what can be achieved.
RPGs of this kind are NOT competitive, the gm uses a set of rules to creates an interactive world for his players to inmmerse themselves into. The only reason additional rules are ever needed is because sometimes the rules are not flexible enough to allow for certain things to happen.
Additional rulebooks are created to compensate for a stiff corebook. Basically, they are errata of sorts. You don't need the Helix warrior from D20 future at all in order to create a hero who is physichally powerfull in d20 modern, but some people like the comfort of having official content that has been balanced before hand over homebrewing content that may unbalance the game.
Booster packs are created to frustrate players' efforts to gather what they need, forcing them to spend money on each pack for a modest chance to obtain that one card they want. It's sadistic and evil, but well fueled by the desire to beat their local badbutt player.
By it's design, TCGs are meant to be competitive. It's this desire to best someone else that pushes the sales of Randomized Card Packets (boosters). And the need to satisfy this desire creates product which is not blanaced but rare. An attempt to force players to purchase even larger amounts of boosters.
These are not optional. Tell a serious Magic the Gathering player that boosters are optional and he doesn't need to buy anything in order to enjoy the game and that same player will burst out in laughter. Sure, he can play magic with his preconstructed deck, but what is he going to do when another guy with a pimped out deck wants to play with him? loose terribly every single time?
Now, transfer these scenarios onto an RPG. what happens when the gm has a pimped out deck of doom for his NPCs and the PCs only have the preconstructed deck that came with their corebook?
Unlike a rulebook, where the gm can let his players read through the additional content and choose what they want (eliminating any obvious advantage on his side), the gm in this case can't let the players borrow the cards he is already using. The only option now is to get more cards. I'm guessing that is an advantage for Wizards, since more cards will be sold, but in my eye as a consumer...
A booster pack based TCG is a poor platform to rest a roleplaying game on. That's my conclusion as a fan of both, TCGs and Pen and Paper RPGs.
Couldn't they at least have the descency to call this thing Gamma World: The trading Card Game?
bons,
Everthing you mention could be accomplished without a collectible/randomized/rarity system. It could be accomplished by selling power cards as a set, much like they do now with 4e power cards. Then you could construct your deck and draw randomly at the table. It could be accomplished by printing out new tables in the expansion books. Really, I thought the "we don't want a bunch of tables that become obsolete" from Rich Baker was the weakest bit of sophistry I've heard from a marketing person in a long time.
As far as I can see, the only thing that randomized boosters accomplishes that couldn't be handled in another way is forcing players to pay for the same rules over and over again, as they collect duplicate cards. Giving people money for things I already own has never seemed fun to me. In fact, a company wanting me to do so feels like a scam.
There are better explanations out there, these are just my own initial post and a post i had quoted recently.
when you can instead sell them cards they DONT want 82 times
Its about the co-op vs competitive nature of pp-rpg vs TCG,
we all have the same materials to build with, and we make ROLE PLAYING decisions how to develop our chars. Heck, I even have contempt for recent (aka 3-4) rpg versions that had folks 'building' high level characters that would be nigh unplayable at levels 3-7 due to the char investing those levels into useless prerequisites rather than what the char would need to have/use at those low levels.
However, to develop or build your character based on what random cards you get in boosters
is the complete opposite of role playing... your character either has to change roleplaying direction to fit the cards that randomly end up in your possession, or you stay IN RP CHARACTER and watch your metagame friends play the powercreep cards that dont fit while your RP character has limited advancement options:
Sure your gunslinger qualifies for and would love take DoubleTap,
but YOU cant have them take it cause you havent bought enough boosters to get DTap yet,
even though the other gubnslinger in the party (the guy working a DomainAdmin job or Airline Pilot) has bought $2500 of cards so HE can have HIS gunslinger take it)... so does your gunslinger take one of his 23 cards of Craft:Knitting or MW-BrassKnuckles cards (C:K and MwBK are common, DTap is, for some profit driven reason, rare) that don't fit RP gunmonkey character?
The massess will snarl and maybe even bite you if you tell them something they don't want to hear. o.O
Also, OP wants inspiration for his letter.
Also also, some more quotes:
If all they wanted was to add a nice card based mechaninc to their RPG, they could have just sold the cards in nice little static boxes which contain a predetermined set of cards. You want the fist of awesome card? buy the fists and punches box.
That's all it needs to appeal to me.
What they should do is take the 120 cards of the booster set and divide them into a bunch of themed sets. Really, they don't even have to be themed. There could be a Gamma deck, Beta deck, Lambda deck, etc...
Each pack could have 20 predermined cards with a set amount of them being specfic rares. If you want multiple copies of the same rare, you can spend 10$ to buy another copy of the theme pack, which is still going to be less than what rares are likely to go for in the aftermarket if the game becomes popular.
I would not bother. I will not be willing to purchase this game even if I love its mechanics. I will not in any way, shape, or form, put a single cent of money into supporting Gamma World so long as any facet of its rules can only be obtained through a collectible card distribution model. So lets say I try the game out and really love it, what then? I just teased myself, because I still won't be willing to purchase any of the games products anyway.
Unless WotC changes this game's distribution model, be it via non-random booster backs, or whatever, I am just not interested in even giving Gamma World a try. They have lost me as a customer based on their attempt to unfairly increase their profit margin with randomized booster packs.
I mean, at cards being 4 dollars for 8 cards, even if cards were not randomized, in order to gain the number of powers that the Sorcerer alone gains from Arcane Power I would have to pay 56 dollars. That is over twice what I pay for Arcane Power, and the amount of content I have gained is that of a single class. But with a smaller game like Gamma World I would be willing to pay that. I love post-apocalyptic science fiction enough to support that game with non randomized card booster packs, even though even that doesn't really make me smile. I mean, 56 dollars for the content of a single class in Arcane Power? Youch. That means the power content of Arcane Power as a whole book would cost me 280 dollars, even if the booster packs were NOT randomized, and I wouldn't get any of the bonus fluff, feat, or other such content that came with that book for the price I would be paying. Add in the random element and that cost just got multiplied by an unknown factor. Paying 1,000 dollars for the equivalent power content of Arcane Power is very realistic. In fact, it is probably an under estimate. You might end up paying that price or more for the power content of a single class from Arcane Power.
Sorry, that business model isn't going to fly for me. If the rest of WotC's customers are willing to support that business model more power to WotC. They won't get a cent from me though...
From my side of things, I just dislike it when people being to talk like they know the game when - obviously - they do not. Until we know the actual rules we can do pretty nothing but assume all day long, which leads to horribly bad conjecture from time to time (an both sides).
Um, no. Just no. You don't need to know the rules of the game to know that if the booster packs cost 4 dollars a pack (they do, we know that because we have been told), and if there are 8 cards in a pack (there are, we know that because we have been told), then you need to spend about 56 dollars to get the same amount of powers as about a single class's powers in one of the "Power" books from the D&D line. You need to spend about 280 dollars to get the same amount of powers as found in a single "Power" book in the D&D line. That is if the packs are not randomized. That leaves a 257 dollar price difference between the content of a "Power" book in book form, and the content of a "Power" book in card form, WITHOUT even including the price inflation that invariably happens in a collectible distribution format. We don't need to know the rules of the game to know that every collectible game in existence results in price inflation. We have prior precedent to back that statement up. We don't need to know the rules of the game to notice that if it would cost 56 dollars to get the power content of a single class in non-random card booster pack format then it will cost MUCH more if the cards are randomized. It will cost much more simply because you will have to buy packs over and over again, because the randomized format will cause you to buy the same product over and over again while attempting to purchase the product you actually desire. You don't have to know the rules of the game to realize that human nature will cause people do desire certain specific rare rules, and those people will go to the internet hoping that someone is willing to sell them singles. You don't have to know the rules of the game to realize that where there is a market there is a seller. You don't have to know the rules of the game to realize that sellers will sell single cards at vastly inflated prices, because their goal will be to make up the money lost from buying pack after pack in order to procure said cards, and then produce profit on top of that. You don't need to know the rules of the game to know that you are not willing to engage in or support this model of rules distribution in any shape or form, no matter what the rules of the game are...
Other people are better at saying stuff than me...
You also don't need to know the rules of the game to know that as soon as the cards begin to sell, people will start scanning them and putting them on-line, and the majority of players won't need to buy multiple, randomised packs in order get the cards that they want. That's not a threat; that's a fact.
And a moral dilemma if you strongly believe in intellectual property rights.
That's kind of topic but I'm just saying.
I could go into some details but that would be tough to do with out violating copy right laws, but to give you broad strokes of it Saga feels like a more stream lined version of D20 Modern though that's not to say it's not with out it's own issues. Converting Modern to 4.0 would make it a completely diffrent game, and it seems like we would be giving up too much of what we love about Modern.
I know that's kind of topic, but even if we avoid the Dooms Day scenario of "Modern the Gathering" there still could be a bleak furture for the game if we don't speak up and tell them what we want. Of course two years ago we were having an equally bleak conversation about Star Wars being turned into a strictly mini game. We came out ahead on that one, I still miss vitality points myself but the condition track in Saga is still nice. It would make a good fit for Modern too.
TS,
you might want to thank them for making Gamma: The Magic'ing
instead of making a Gamma campaign book for d20Modern / Modern-II
re: Open Letter
TS,
you might want to thank them for making Gamma: The Magic'ing
instead of making a Gamma campaign book for d20Modern / Modern-II
wwhy must oyu make me laugh when i'm having asthma issues >_<
Conversion to 4E type mechanics and CCG are practically irreversible. You won't see anything new for Modern that willl work with the previously published books. Since most of the users here have no love for 4E and/or CCGs I'm thinking RealOrion could be right. Its time to move to another galaxy just like the Technomages in Babylon 5...
While I commend your intentions I'm not shure it will amount to anything you want to hear in the end.
Conversion to 4E type mechanics and CCG are practically irreversible. You won't see anything new for Modern that willl work with the previously published books. Since most of the users here have no love for 4E and/or CCGs I'm thinking RealOrion could be right. Its time to move to another galaxy just like the Technomages in Babylon 5...
who said it has to work with the pervious books,thats a pipe dream,what I am doing IMO is letting them know that "we" do not like this road and do not wish to see modern go down and in fatc I've added the following to it:
"The fan base has made statements that say they do not wish to see a D20 modern rules set based entirely on 4th Edition. The fan base would like to see a rule set based on the SAGA edition rules for the Star Wars Role Playing Game. The fan base likes the simplified skill list from SAGA,but they do not like the focus on combat that 4th edition has with little to no abilities for non combat encounters"
I'm not looking to start an eiditon fight, but I think I was pretty much right about the above paragraph
And to be honest this letter is jsut mean to say "HEY! We're still here!"
Also it won't take a heck of a lot to adjust SAGA to the modern setting. What needs to be done is equipment changes of course (AK-47s instead of blaster rifles), and the classes of course need to be changed. SAGA was based heavily on D20 Modern and it represents nearly everything that D20 Modern 2 should be.
"The fan base has made statements that say they do not wish to see a D20 modern rules set based entirely on 4th Edition. The fan base would like to see a rule set based on the SAGA edition rules for the Star Wars Role Playing Game. The fan base likes the simplified skill list from SAGA,but they do not like the focus on combat that 4th edition has with little to no abilities for non combat encounters"
This paragraph is not necessarily an accurate portrayal. There is actually some degree of pretty active discussion about skill conglomeration and how much is "too" much. Regardless, the SAGA line is now ended as well, and any future Star Wars games will be on the 4e model. I'm sorry everyone, but I just see no reason to think that Wizards will go "backwards" in terms of their game design. That would be like asking Microsoft to redesign Windows XP. I feel like I'm just saying the same thing over and over, and it's probably getting annoying by now, so I'll stay quiet unless something new comes up, but I'm just going to type this one more time:
It ain't going to happen. Turn to third-party publishers. Wizards doesn't care about us.
"The fan base has made statements that say they do not wish to see a D20 modern rules set based entirely on 4th Edition. The fan base would like to see a rule set based on the SAGA edition rules for the Star Wars Role Playing Game. The fan base likes the simplified skill list from SAGA,but they do not like the focus on combat that 4th edition has with little to no abilities for non combat encounters"
This paragraph is not necessarily an accurate portrayal. There is actually some degree of pretty active discussion about skill conglomeration and how much is "too" much. Regardless, the SAGA line is now ended as well, and any future Star Wars games will be on the 4e model. I'm sorry everyone, but I just see no reason to think that Wizards will go "backwards" in terms of their game design. That would be like asking Microsoft to redesign Windows XP. I feel like I'm just saying the same thing over and over, and it's probably getting annoying by now, so I'll stay quiet unless something new comes up, but I'm just going to type this one more time:
It ain't going to happen. Turn to third-party publishers. Wizards doesn't care about us.
I have to agree with RealOrion on this one. Modern is dead, SAGA just died. All this is left is 4E. Its unrealistic to think they will design a game that arcs back to previous editions for the simple reason that it's counter productive. Its been almost 2 years. 4E did not crash like some predicted. WoTC game designers are tied up in creating 4E spin offs. In fact WoTC is already writing the premise to 4.5 with the advent of random boosters introduced with GAMMA WORLD. Its clear to me now that the era of classic P&P RPGs will come to an end if WotC succeeds in marketing their hybrid CCG-RPG (CRPG?). Many other publishers will follow suit. For Modern lovers the only hope at this point is the independant project e20...
There are lots of different 3e-alternative systems out there: Green Ronin, Spycraft, Game Mechanics, e20, True 20, and that's just the modern variations. d20 is one of the most robust systems you could possibly play. You just have to let go of the, frankly, simplisitic dream of getting all your gaming supplies from one company.
Modern isn't dead; it's free. It's free of Wizards; since they abandoned it, it's grown strong and learned to fend for itself. And it's free of charge; the MSRDs are widely available, even in hypertext form, and there is no shortage of d20M-style games that are legally free to download and play, including my own.
I can't even tell what you're all complaining about any more. Thanks to the OGL, we can tinker with this game to our hearts' content and there's an never-ending supply of new materials. What do you people want, for Daddy to love you again or for your ex to tell you that they really don't want to break up with you after all? There's lots and lots of Modern gaming out there to be gamed; just go grab it by the nuts and report back about how much gods damned fun you had.
I will not, however, put up with a CCG aspect in my PnP RPG. Any game that includes such an aspect will be boycotted by me.
Yeah I also wouldn't mind a modern game based off of 4e rules, and Neurospasta is coming along pretty well. It would only take a few modifications to run a modern game with it. The combat focus of 4e isn't from the rules themselves, but the options within those rules. What I mean by that is that there is nothing stopping WotC from printing some more non-combat options/powers for a fighter, they just have chosen not to do so.
As for SAGA, go check out the e20 system. One of the SAGA designers is working on it, and while he wants it to work with any genre, he has stated that he intends for the "default" out-the-box setting to be modern. He's working on the e20-lite document that will spell out more clearly what he intends for the system, but in the meantime you can read about the system www.gmsarligames.com/ and browse the forums gmsarligames.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=... If it looks interesting, make a pledge to help get this thing off the ground www.kickstarter.com/projects/gmsarli/gam... (note, if he doesn't receive the $10,000 total that he feels is the minimum for this project to work, no one gets charged any money).
What? No. That's not what I'm saying at all.
There are lots of different 3e-alternative systems out there: Green Ronin, Spycraft, Game Mechanics, e20, True 20, and that's just the modern variations. d20 is one of the most robust systems you could possibly play. You just have to let go of the, frankly, simplisitic dream of getting all your gaming supplies from one company.
Modern isn't dead; it's free. It's free of Wizards; since they abandoned it, it's grown strong and learned to fend for itself. And it's free of charge; the MSRDs are widely available, even in hypertext form, and there is no shortage of d20M-style games that are legally free to download and play, including my own.
I can't even tell what you're all complaining about any more. Thanks to the OGL, we can tinker with this game to our hearts' content and there's an never-ending supply of new materials. What do you people want, for Daddy to love you again or for your ex to tell you that they really don't want to break up with you after all? There's lots and lots of Modern gaming out there to be gamed; just go grab it by the nuts and report back about how much gods damned fun you had.
LOL... I meant Modern (SAGA) is dead for WoTC. And yes you are right its time to grow up and leave the sandbox. Still e20 is the only project we can have an input, influence, on because its not published yet. Shure you can thinker around but the shear amount of work you put in Pheonix is not within everyones reach or capabilities. That's why so many of us are dependant on published products.
My point wasn't that each one of you could build your own entire system, but that there are people like me who are more than willing to share our tinkering for free, or even charge very modest amounts for it. $5 is very little to spend for a 50 or 100-page gaming manual, and those are the kinds of prices I often see.
What I would love is some kind of free-to-cheap swap-meet somewhere on the internet, a place where we can talk about our gaming creations and trade them around. Perhaps if you want to charge $10 for your game, but I'm giving mine away for free, you might feel comfortable just giving me yours? That's the kind of thing that could happen. Ever since the OGL, I've had this wonderful dream of d20 going open-source, and we're right on the doorstep of that. The complaints that Wizards has abandoned Modern, as accurate as they are, are keeping us in a mindset where we just beg publishers to provide us with content. I want to make the leap to gamer-created content. Yes, it means sifting through a little to avoid the total crap, but don't we all do that at gaming stores anyway? A lot of crap has been printed over the decades. At this could be our crap.
I'm kinda rambling now.
Sort of requires that you have the Star Wars Saga books though...
Oh, I see. Sorry everyone! I think I reached a personal annoyance point and didn't properly stop myself from venting. My bad.
My point wasn't that each one of you could build your own entire system, but that there are people like me who are more than willing to share our tinkering for free, or even charge very modest amounts for it. $5 is very little to spend for a 50 or 100-page gaming manual, and those are the kinds of prices I often see.
What I would love is some kind of free-to-cheap swap-meet somewhere on the internet, a place where we can talk about our gaming creations and trade them around. Perhaps if you want to charge $10 for your game, but I'm giving mine away for free, you might feel comfortable just giving me yours? That's the kind of thing that could happen. Ever since the OGL, I've had this wonderful dream of d20 going open-source, and we're right on the doorstep of that. The complaints that Wizards has abandoned Modern, as accurate as they are, are keeping us in a mindset where we just beg publishers to provide us with content. I want to make the leap to gamer-created content. Yes, it means sifting through a little to avoid the total crap, but don't we all do that at gaming stores anyway? A lot of crap has been printed over the decades. At this could be our crap.
I'm kinda rambling now.
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The fan base has made statements that say they do not wish to see a D20 modern rules set based entirely on 4th Edition. The fan base would like to see a rule set based on the SAGA edition rules for the Star Wars Role Playing Game. The fan base likes the simplified skill list from SAGA,but they do not like the focus on combat that 4th edition has with little to no abilities for non combat encounters"
I did not say that all of 4e is evil, I said in different words that some of 4e is okay,just not ALL of it and if to be blunt about it but if you think its gone and over with then why are you still here and this letter is primed to go out on saturday btw.
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Hot. Buttered. Awesome.
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Great. It wasn't that hard to implement once I knew were to look... and its free! Hopefuly we can get enough members to repost there personnal stuff on the new site. I'll probably need some moderators down the line.
I'm thinking of doing a special section for The Phoenix Project. Is that okay with you?
Join the Rebel Alliance today
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