EDIT: Meant to say majority, not minority.
Some of us are actually trying to create Modern material with the 4e ruleset in mind. For those of you who only want to argue about how modern can never work with 4e rules, or are intent upon being naysayers; i present you with an open forum to agree with yourselves without bothering the rest of us. Do all of us a favor and take advantage of it.
You realize this is about as bad as anti-4E posters posting disruptive interjections into your discussions. You're now condescending upon them and telling them to stay out of an open forum.
That said, I certainly won't try to change your gaming tastes (that'd be pointless/stupid). The majority of the modern community (at least as it is represented here) aren't fans of 4E, but that doesn't stop you from making it. I hope you make something that you and your gaming groups enjoy.
Please don't generalize all of us "4E haters". Some of us actually stay out, or *gasp* try to help you out in your threads.
The majority of the modern community (at least as it is represented here) aren't fans of 4E, but that doesn't stop you from making it.
I think that the votes in the poll would indicate that the majority of the Modern community are fans of 4e, but are not represented in this forum.
I think that the votes in the poll would indicate that the majority of the Modern community are fans of 4e, but are not represented in this forum.
well considering you toss the link to the poll in the 4E forums......its hardly surprising....IMO
Other people can toss links up anywhere they like.
... but if they don't, the poll isn't accurate.
I have enough friends who dislike 4E and like the normal Modern to balance that poll, but they don't care anymore (they hated 4E AND SAGA as replacements [liked 'em as standalone games, but not as much], so... yeah, no faith in WotC at the moment).
And, to be honest, this poll probably should have gone up in the Future Release forums anyway. That way the poll would have been an accurate representation of the desires of people looking to purchase Future Releases from WotC.
I understand that you have lost faith in WotC. I understand that you don't like 4e. That is fair. I can understand why people with a certain set of sensibilities would not. Me, personally, I think both Saga and 4e are the best two products WotC has ever released. I like Sagas out of combat options and the impression of an open ended character building system more. I like 4e combat resolution mechanics more. I have full faith in WotC at the current moment in time. I think a healthy mix of the two systems in order to create a new Modern game would be the best thing I have ever played.
Please don't generalize all of us "4E haters". Some of us actually stay out, or *gasp* try to help you out in your threads.
I don't. Some of the people here have been helpful and decent. They are to be applauded for it. The condescension was levelled squarely at those who only want to interject that: things wont work with 4e, that any 4e inspired system isn't truly the modern game, or that want to naysay the 4e system. As long as the purpose of your post doesn't fall into those 3 categories, I'm perfectly glad to listen to any points you have to make.
If they don't want to have controversy or argumentative threads, they shouldn't bother posting to a public forum where there is no bar on topic matter (within reason as defined by the CoC). I'm echoing Master_Vega here in that it is unfair and hypocritical to attempt to mollify us by setting up ONE thread for all the 3e fans to complain about 4e Modern (as if they have the right to tell us where and what to post). If thats the case, we should just throw up one thread for 4e creative ideas and support, regardless of content, and have the rest of the forum be non-mechanic fluff talk. Oh wait. That would be boring.
-Dave, I just want to make a point here, and I'm not specifically trying to start an argument with you about it. Its easier for a link to pull more votes from the 4e crew on these forums because of the abject hostility and antagonism that 3e "Holdouts" as I've heard them called are faced with. Figure, all of our threads were destroyed or archived, some very GOOD material was lost with the switch over 4e, Wizards hasn't done anything to make that community feel like welcome fans, and I'm not even talking about products but more of a treatment of them as both fans and consumers (Some of whom purchased a lot of the 3e+ run, myself included). Other 3e threads that pop up are small in comparison, or ridiculed by 4ers for it.
So no, while posting a link in the future releases about a Modern poll isn't padding the vote in any way, it is unfair because 4e has a definitive advantage on these forums compared to 3e, with a larger majority, and you know it.
Thank you, though for pointing out to MP that there's no justification for his accusations, although I find it funny that you're doing exactly as I suggested was happening (That people were bringing in 4e votes from the other forums). I thought that was just a conspiracy theory?
Nothing. He's just trying to push the 3e+ crew into a corner and shut them up, while his iron fisted HOOHA runs rampant over the forums and tramples on our rights as gamers to vocalize what we want, when we want, and how we want.
You have the right to vocalize what you want. You don't have the right to go into threads specifically about converting Modern into a 4e thread to whine about how the effort is faulty from the ground up, because Modern should never be designed using the 4e rules. If you don't want to post in a manner constructive to the original posters goals (in any given thread) don't post at all. Don't go into a 4e conversion thread, about creating house rules or brainstorming on the possibility of a 4e game, to do nothing but say that you don't think one should go through the effort at all. That is what ****** MechaPilot off, and that is why he made this thread.
-Dave, I just want to make a point here, and I'm not specifically trying to start an argument with you about it. Its easier for a link to pull more votes from the 4e crew on these forums because of the abject hostility and antagonism that 3e "Holdouts" as I've heard them called are faced with. Figure, all of our threads were destroyed or archived, some very GOOD material was lost with the switch over 4e, Wizards hasn't done anything to make that community feel like welcome fans, and I'm not even talking about products but more of a treatment of them as both fans and consumers (Some of whom purchased a lot of the 3e+ run, myself included). Other 3e threads that pop up are small in comparison, or ridiculed by 4ers for it.
Sorry, but there is no abject hostility from the 4e crew towards "3e holdouts." There are 3e boards specifically dedicated to 3e. There are 4e boards specifically dedicated to 4e. And there are those who like both in the d20 Modern forums. If a 4e player were to walk into the 3e boards specifically to say 3e sucks, he will be met with hostility. If a 3e player were to walk into the 4e boards specifically to say 4e sucks, he will be met with hostility. This is to be expected. Don't go into someone else's living room just to tell them they have an awful taste in furniture. If you do, expect the reaction you get. In the Modern forums, the same is true in a micro scale when a 3e player walks into a thread about converting Modern into a 4e game just to say 4e sucks, or vice versa. In the Modern to Saga conversion thread you don't see anyone posting about how Saga sucks. Even those who prefer 4e only posted if they wanted to help the original poster with his stated desire. But, in the 4e conversion threads, a few posters (or rather, one specific poster) would repeatedly walk into threads to pretty much do just that. Its annoying, and its uncalled for.
And I for one don't feel that Wizards has done anything negative to my community. They have made some decisions I am not particularly happy with. They have made some I am happy with. I have lost some threads from the old forums. I've gained two new games that I like a lot more than anything they offered in the past. And none of it really matters. In the end, Wizards can do whatever they want with this space. They are not beholden to anyone but themselves, their investors, and their margin of profit. I don't really get this sense of entitlement some people have in regards to companies. They are not your friends. They exist to make money, nothing else.
So no, while posting a link in the future releases about a Modern poll isn't padding the vote in any way, it is unfair because 4e has a definitive advantage on these forums compared to 3e, with a larger majority, and you know it.
These forums (I mean WotC's overarching forums) have more 4e fans because more of D&D's current fans ARE 4e fans. And no, letting people in the 4e forums know is not unfair. For a fair vote to happen, both parts of the community in the WotC forums need to know that a vote is going on, the 3e fans, and the 4e fans. The 3e d20 Modern fans already knew a vote was going on. The 4e d20 Modern fans did not. I let them know. There is nothing unfair about that. Not letting the 4e d20 Modern fans a chance to know that a vote was going on at all, that is unfair. That is holding a vote for a specific audience with a preordained result, a result that is not indicative of what the majority of gamers out there (at least as represented by the WotC forums) actually want.
Thank you, though for pointing out to MP that there's no justification for his accusations, although I find it funny that you're doing exactly as I suggested was happening (That people were bringing in 4e votes from the other forums). I thought that was just a conspiracy theory?
The conspiracy theory was no different then MechaPilots last statement. The first claim was that people were using multiple accounts to vote more than once (in favor of 4e). The later claim was that 4e fans who were not d20 Modern fans were coming here specifically to skew the vote. Both those statements are ridiculous, and are conspiracy theories. They are as unjustified as what MechaPilot claimed. There is zero proof for either statement. The fact that 4e fans who are also d20 Modern fans came to this section of the forums, which they usually do not, specifically to vote, is neither unfair nor surprising. It also does not make the vote an inaccurate representation of peoples desires here on the WotC forums.
GIVE IT A REST ALREADY.
We just managed to get everyone to shake hands and make nice. The only function of this kind of thread is to stir up trouble. Nobody cares who's in the right, and it's not the kind of debate in which anyone can ever be definitively "right," anyway. So just let it go already. Seriously. The last few days have proved that we all do in fact have better things to do around here.
On the other hand, I wonder how many people voted in this poll that are actually invested in d20 modern, instead of just seeing a poll for "4e vs. the Old Ways(tm)" and decided to contaminate the results.
I'm also not accusing anyone here of doing that, so don't start flaming me for it.
So, please forgive me. I was not talking about your joke (claiming I was account spamming)... I thought that was funny :P. What I am referring to as a "conspiracy theory" was the above quote. For some reason I remembered Hochiu starting his accusation with a claim of account jumping to vote pad. I must have gotten your joke mixed up with Hochiu's actual accusation, or something along those lines. I seem to have developed an early case of Alzheimer's. Sorry about that!
EDIT: Not trying to stir anything up Orion. Just amicably talking to Vega. Or at least, that is all I am trying to do.
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ORC_Chaos
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I am not closing or deleting this thread at this time. I will however remind people we do NOT allow flame wars and disruption on the Wizards forums. If you cannot post politely and with respect even if you disagree, then please do not post. Any violations of the Code of Conduct will be dealt with as necessary. You are more than welcome to disagree and debate the ISSUES, but do NOT attack another poster in any way.
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ORC_Chaos
Online Response Crew
Why not close this thread too? Are you really just confirming that its ok to poke at 3e, but not at 4e?
I want nothing to do with the edition wars, but this is completely unfair.
Some of us are actually trying to create Modern material with the 4e ruleset in mind. For those of you who only want to argue about how modern can never work with 4e rules, or are intent upon being naysayers; i present you with an open forum to agree with yourselves without bothering the rest of us. Do all of us a favor and take advantage of it.
If you seriously see nothing wrong with this at all but think saying the same with 3e in relation to 4e is against the CoC, then I seriously question your ability as a moderator.
Just my thoughts.
Just a side note: All keep in mind I'm not taking an edition side here, I'm just against the apparent unfair treatment.