Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cannibal_penguin May 27, 2008 16:29:27	Does autofire ignore armor class? The rule in the book is i think a dc of 15 for a 10 foot area. what if your wearing like...Starcraft Terran marine armor or something? Id say an autofire 5.56 wouldnt do much. Im thinking autofire is there to balance out, so someone with a crap gun can hurt someone at the price of using up ammo.
#2 nodaisho May 27, 2008 16:59:25	Yeah, it is about volume making up for lack of individual skill, useful on the big heavy armored guys with bad reflex bonuses.
#3 tema69 May 27, 2008 17:11:49	One word. Use Armour as Damage Reduction. ...damn. That was slightly more than one word. :D As RAW, armour does not count against area of effect weapons. Some theoretical exercise: 1 random mook (heck - even a schoolgirl without any weapon proficiencies) with an 9mm MP5 autofires a friggin' space marine terminator. Guess, what? SMTerminator is gonna be takin' 2d6 points of damage because he didn't dodge the bullets.
#4 backstabbist May 27, 2008 19:39:46	The word you were loking for is "Use-armor-as-damage-reductionism"
#5 nodaisho May 27, 2008 19:53:31	UAADR, actually. Everything is better as an acronym
#6 tema69 May 28, 2008 12:38:37	* "UAADR" is great! It's even fun to pronounce * :D Off topic: any of you guys had problems with viewing threads earlier today? I couldn't see any threads - only the forums.
#7 nodaisho May 28, 2008 16:59:32	Are you using the wizards community default skin? If you do, it does that sometimes, just goes to a blank page? If you change the skin you are using, it works better.
#8 tema69 May 29, 2008 6:24:29	Thx - I'll try that if it does it again. I'm using the purple/metal skin - I believe that's default.
#9 nix4 Jul 18, 2008 9:53:13	I'm dragging this up from the grave because I've ran into this issue in a game last week. I think I may have a better solution for AutoFire and I would like to share it with the community to see what the response is like. The MSRD rule on AutoFire can be found here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Combat#Grenades_and_Explosives The problem I have is that it makes no sense to me that someone fires 10 rounds at an area and only has to hit a Defense of 10 in order to damage the targets in that area... REGARDLESS of armor they are wearing. This may not be such a big deal at the d20 Modern level. But at the d20 Future scale where you may have heavily armored targets in that area then it makes little or no sense (to me at least). So, instead of treating AutoFire like a grenade (which it isn't its 10 bullets not an explosion). I have modified the rules a bit and think this is reasonable. It allows inexeperienced shooters to hose down an area and have a chance at hurting targets in that area. ================= Modified AutoFire If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15). If the Reflex save is successful, the creature affected avoids all damage. ** This is my modified rule ** If the Refelx save fails, the initial attack roll made by the character is compared to the Defense of the creature, if that attack roll is greater than the Flat-Footed Defense of the creature, the creature is struck by one or more rounds. For every 2 points above the creatures Flat-Footed Defense, an additional round hits, up to the maximum number of rounds fired (10). Resolve targets in the affected area one at a time until either all Reflex saves are determined or the maximum number of rounds are expended. ** End of my modification ** Autofire shoots 10 bullets, and can only be used if the weapon has 10 bullets in it. Autofire is not the same thing as burst fire, which involves firing a short burst at a specific target. Firing a burst requires the Burst Fire feat. If a character fires a blast of automatic fire at a specific target without the Burst Fire feat, it’s treated as a standard attack. The attack, if successful, only deals normal damage—all the extra ammunition the character fired is wasted. Some firearms—particularly machine guns—only have autofire settings and can’t normally fire single shots. ========================================== This allows a player to shoot a 10'x10' area..expend 10 rounds...and HIT, but then each target in that area gets to dodge and avoid damage...those that fail have to see if their armor can resist the initial attack. If it does, oh well armor wins...if not, they get hurt normally as per the rules.. And if the intial attack was quite good...they get hit by multiple rounds too!
#10 kjakan Jul 20, 2008 6:46:59	At first glance, this is kind of similar to the autofire rules used in Saga. The autofire attack roll is compared to the affected characters' defenses. A hit is a hit, a miss deals half damage (errata: no damage if the target has suffcient cover). However, I see that you have kept the Reflex save for no damage and added a bit of extra damage for beating the targets Defense (flat-footed, no less) by degrees. I don't think this is going to work all that great. First off, it is my personal opinion that allowing incrementally more damage to be caused due to a greater degree of success is a bad idea. In this case, scoring two hits on a target is very similar to scoring a critical (a fairly rare occurance) or scoring a hit with a burst fire attack. It's actually better than a burstfire attack in many regards since beating the target's Defense by 4 nets you three hits, while burst fire is more similar to two hits. This is further aggravated by the modified autofire attack being open-ended wheras the burstfire attack is limited. Beating the target's Defense by 10 points with a burst fire attack still only deals 4 dice of damage, while the same roll on an autofire attack would deal something like 8 hits! A curious quirk in the proposed mechanics would make heavily armoured target subject to less of the incoming fire than would be the unarmoured ally beside him. Seriously: An attack roll of 20 would consume one round when worked out against the guy with Defense 20 and five rounds against the guy with Defense 10. If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion: Consider armour to be a kind of cover against area effect attacks like grenades and autofire! As you may have noticed, cover give the target a bonus to Reflex saves. If you treat light through heavy armours as one-quarter through three-quarters cover then that might suitably address the issue: No armour or impromptu armour: +0 Light armour: +1 Medium armour: +2 Heavy armour: +3 You might want to limit the characters to benefiting from either actual cover or their armour - not both. The bonuses are kind of low compared to the Defense benefits derived from cover. This is because the Reflex DC of most are effects have a fixed value that are expected to represent a threat to characters of any level. You may have noticed that "good" saves improve at approximately +1/2 per character level. This means a reflex save of DC 15 should be both possible to make for a level 1 character (ca. +1 base) and possible to fail for a level 20 character (ca. +10 base). Adding too many bonuses into the equation skews that balance. -K
#11 tantaclaus Jul 20, 2008 13:39:32	If you use AADR, does the armor bonus still go to your AC?
#12 tema69 Jul 20, 2008 14:05:21	That depends on how you want it. We use full AADR (only DR) in our group (and we like it). Some use 1/2 AADR (1/2 Defense bonus, 1/2 DR). Using full AADR completely eliminates the problem, but some groups might not like to have too low Defense, and can thus use 1/2 AADR.
#13 nix4 Jul 20, 2008 17:06:44	Wow, I'm still unsure if I would elminiate defense bonus and go full DR yet.. I believe defense bonus and equipment bonus represent something DR does not and should not be merged. However, thats an other discussion... Thank you all for the great feedback and this give sme more to think about. The idea of giving a cover bonus based on armor is an interesting one. comments below... At first glance, this is kind of similar to the autofire rules used in Saga. The autofire attack roll is compared to the affected characters' defenses. A hit is a hit, a miss deals half damage (errata: no damage if the target has suffcient cover). However, I see that you have kept the Reflex save for no damage and added a bit of extra damage for beating the targets Defense (flat-footed, no less) by degrees. The FIXED REF save of DC15 could be removed, and it could be a REF save against the initial attack against the DC10 of autofire....as an alternative idea. The extra damage concept was taken from cyberpunk. I don't think this is going to work all that great. First off, it is my personal opinion that allowing incrementally more damage to be caused due to a greater degree of success is a bad idea. In this case, scoring two hits on a target is very similar to scoring a critical (a fairly rare occurance) or scoring a hit with a burst fire attack. This brings up an interesting point as to weather autofire is better than burst. Burst requires a feat, autofire does not. I think I misunderstood autofire as being superior to burst in that it fires 10 rounds...but its really just a wild fire at a given 10'x10' area. The fact that you fire 10 rounds mearly gives you a greater chance of scoring A HIT...not MANY HITS. If thats what Autofire is..then I have to reconsider. Perhaps What stands now could become FULL AUTO ..which requires a feat and allows for more hits than burst (Perhaps Burst would be a pre-req). It's actually better than a burstfire attack in many regards since beating the target's Defense by 4 nets you three hits, while burst fire is more similar to two hits. This is further aggravated by the modified autofire attack being open-ended wheras the burstfire attack is limited. Beating the target's Defense by 10 points with a burst fire attack still only deals 4 dice of damage, while the same roll on an autofire attack would deal something like 8 hits! A curious quirk in the proposed mechanics would make heavily armoured target subject to less of the incoming fire than would be the unarmoured ally beside him. Seriously: An attack roll of 20 would consume one round when worked out against the guy with Defense 20 and five rounds against the guy with Defense 10. Thats what armor does, less rounds hit you, the guy with less defense takes more hurt cuz his armor isnt' blocking the rounds. If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion: Consider armour to be a kind of cover against area effect attacks like grenades and autofire! As you may have noticed, cover give the target a bonus to Reflex saves. If you treat light through heavy armours as one-quarter through three-quarters cover then that might suitably address the issue: No armour or impromptu armour: +0 Light armour: +1 Medium armour: +2 Heavy armour: +3 This brings about another interesting point. One player in my game suggested that Having a REF save AND factoring in Flat Footed Defense factors in the characters DEX bonus twice, which is unfair. Therefore, you really should merge REF save to avoid damage into a single role (apparetly like 4th ed does). You might want to limit the characters to benefiting from either actual cover or their armour - not both. The bonuses are kind of low compared to the Defense benefits derived from cover. This is because the Reflex DC of most are effects have a fixed value that are expected to represent a threat to characters of any level. You may have noticed that "good" saves improve at approximately +1/2 per character level. This means a reflex save of DC 15 should be both possible to make for a level 1 character (ca. +1 base) and possible to fail for a level 20 character (ca. +10 base). Adding too many bonuses into the equation skews that balance. That is to say, that a lvl 20 soldier and a lvl 1 fast character create the same kind of autofire that experience or level dosn't make one characters autofire more difficult to avoid than anothers. This would assume, as I have mentioned above, that AutoFire really is a low-level character option and not truely suitable for a military guy as it dosn't favor his additional skill in striking a target. -K This is great feedback, I hope to hear more responses to my comments!
#14 tema69 Jul 20, 2008 18:43:44	A quick note: As for Reflex Saves vs. Autofire and AoE attacks, we do not use fixed DCs, although the fixed DCs (15 for autofire for example) are the minimum. A character must succeed a Reflex save against the attack roll of the attacker. Thus, a 12year old schoolgirl with an MP5 isn't as dangerous as a SAS QCB specialist with the same MP5. Assuming the character rolls 22 on his Autofire attack, the target(s) must succeed a Ref DC 22 or take damage. Assuming the character rolls 12 on his autofire attack, the target(s) must succeed a Ref DC 15 (which is the minimum). It has worked out pretty well so far.
#15 nix4 Jul 21, 2008 0:14:49	Okay, so I think I got to the bottom of this.. Autofire= Attack Defense 10, each target in the 10'x10' area has to make a REF DC 15 to dodge. Failure means the target is hit, and the attack roll has to beat their Flat Footed Defense (perhaps minus class bonus to defense as well). And takes 1 hit of damage. 10 rounds are fired. Burst (FEAT)= Attack a target with 3 rounds and hit with multiple rounds (as per RAW). Full Auto (new FEAT, req Burst)= Fire 10 rounds, Attack Defense 10 in a 10'x10' area. Targets make REF DC vs attack roll to dodge. Failure means the target is hit and the attack roll has to beat their Flat Footed Defense. Every 2 pts the attack roll beats the Flat Footed Defense an additional round hits up to the full rounds shot (10).
#16 ranger_reg Jul 21, 2008 2:22:02	Does autofire ignore armor class? The rule in the book is i think a dc of 15 for a 10 foot area. what if your wearing like...Starcraft Terran marine armor or something? Id say an autofire 5.56 wouldnt do much. Im thinking autofire is there to balance out, so someone with a crap gun can hurt someone at the price of using up ammo. By RAW, it does. Though a GM can make reasonable judgment as to whether the armor can give decent coverage protection during an autofire attack. Someone who wears just a kevlar vest still leaves their limbs as well as their head unprotected in the targeted 10-feet square. Cover is Your Best Friend.
#17 kjakan Jul 21, 2008 7:05:24	The FIXED REF save of DC15 could be removed, and it could be a REF save against the initial attack against the DC10 of autofire....as an alternative idea. Not necessarilly a bad idea, but bear in mind that attack rolls tend to progres at +1/2 per character level at the worst while saves improve at +1/2 at best. A commonly suggested feat is the Improved Autofire feat from the Ultramodern Firearms supplement that increases the save DC by +5 to DC 20. It's a simple feat that tacks onto the Advanced Firearms Proficiency tree. This brings up an interesting point as to weather autofire is better than burst. It is a fairly basic design concept that if you want to deal more damage you need to take the feats. That's why there's the Double Tap and Burst Fire feat in the game in the first place, kind of the firearms variant of Power Attack. Firing more bullets should give you a better chance of hitting something and should allow you to hit things more often, but is adding more realism to a game that deals combat in an abstract manner. Hit points aren't exactly the most realistic way to handle gunshot and stab wounds in the first place. The idea is that there damage output scales with level. A level 1 character with 10 hp shouldn't need to worry about getting hit six times for 2d6 damage each by a punk pointing a MAC Ingram at his general location! Thats what armor does, less rounds hit you, the guy with less defense takes more hurt cuz his armor isnt' blocking the rounds. Yes, but your proposed rules don't do that at all: Let's say the attack covers four guys with Defense 10 vs. an attack roll of 18. In theory that would mean that each guy could suffer 5 hits. Since there are only 10 bullets to go around, the first two guys take 5 hits each, leaving the other two unscathed. Now let's assume the first target you resolve damage for has a Defense of 20. Not only does he take no damage, but neither does his armour absorb any of the bullets either. His armour isn't blocking any rounds: it's just passing the bullets onto the other guys! This brings about another interesting point. One player in my game suggested that Having a REF save AND factoring in Flat Footed Defense factors in the characters DEX bonus twice, which is unfair. Therefore, you really should merge REF save to avoid damage into a single role (apparetly like 4th ed does). Your player may have things confused: flat-footed defense does not include the Dex modifier. A character with Dex 14 (+2) and a +4 armour has defense 16 normal, but defense 14 flat-footed. What is unfair perhaps is that a character in heavy armour retains his full Dex bonus to Reflex saves though his maximum Dexterity bonus to defense may be capped as low as +0. I still say applying armour as some sort of cover bonus against this kind of attack is a good option. It allows players to benefit from investing feats, money and carrying capacity in heavy armour. You don't have to change basic rules and risk breaking the game, and you don't have to re-work the armour system for DR. (Armour as damage reduction is a fairly nice idea, but I find it tends to negate the danger of light weapons such as knives). -K
#18 nix4 Jul 21, 2008 7:31:03	Improved Autofire Feat solidifies the REF 15 system..since that feat brings it to REF DC 20, that (In my mind) should nail down that discussion as to weather or not it should scale. This is NOT a feat. Autofire is not about landing allot of rounds on targets..its about having a chance to hit something! for those who aren't quite adept at shooting. In coming full circle with this using the cover bonus you mentioned..It just dosn't sit with me. Because they FAILED their REF DC. So why would they gain the benefit of "cover"..they never made it there. Armor is armor, not cover so Im not too happy with using that mechanic. I would rather have the armor do its job and depending on how heavy it should protect. But using cover as you say is a simple and clean mechanic, maybe I could just re-word it lol!
#19 tema69 Jul 21, 2008 8:34:25	(Armour as damage reduction is a fairly nice idea, but I find it tends to negate the danger of light weapons such as knives). -K Get a hold on Blood & Guts: Armour as Damage Reduction. If you use AADR, a Penetration value for each weapon is absolutely necessary. And guess what? Piercing weapons have the best Penetration value, especially because modern armour can't really handle Piercing weapons at all (anti-stab insert excluded). So, if you give your random thug a knife, assuming he's Level 1 Strong with Melee Smash and +2 Strength, he's going to deal 1d4+3 damage with a Penetration 3. Depending on what armour and how much AADR you use (1/2 or full), his strength and the Penetration value might actually completely ignore the Armour. But really, since when have knives been dangerous in d20 Modern? You need some serious Weap. Spec., and Melee Smash to get that knife boosted to a reasonable damage level. In our group, we add 1 die of damage to all weapons. Thus, the same thug above ^ might actually kill you with a single stab from his 2d4+3 (Pen3) knife (average 8 points of damage, max. 11). It's still not extremely likely, but the second stab might put you down. We also use hit location (so a hit in the arm [halve the damage] isn't as dangerous as one in the throat [double the damage]), Wounds/Vitality points with the MDT scaling with Wounds (essentially, Wounds are the MDT), so if you take Wound damage, your MDT drops (so after a couple of stabs^ on your PC, the thug has a good chance of getting to you MAS). It should be noted that ordinaries in our setting/with our rules don't have Vitality points, and only Wound/MDT points. So if the level 1 Strong PC thug stabs an ordinary NPC, the NPC should go down in very few hits. /rant.
#20 kjakan Jul 21, 2008 11:38:04	In coming full circle with this using the cover bonus you mentioned..It just dosn't sit with me. Because they FAILED their REF DC. So why would they gain the benefit of "cover"..they never made it there. Armor is armor, not cover so Im not too happy with using that mechanic. I would rather have the armor do its job and depending on how heavy it should protect. If you are in any way comfortable with armor as a bonus to defense (edit: with regards to a standard attack, not autofire) with no effect on damage then you should have no problem applying it as a kind of cover (against autofire). Impact-absorbing materials aside, the primary function of armour *is* cover in that is provides a protective layer on part of your body. Also, it may be that you have gotten the suggested mechanic confused with something else. The idea is to apply the armour's "cover" as a bonus to the reflex save, making the process as follows: 1. Attacker makes an autofire attack against an area containing the target character. He makes an attack roll against defense 10. If successfull he has sucessfully subjected the characters in that area to the attack. 2. The affected characters make their Reflex saves, adding +0 through +3 to their saving throw depending on their armour. If successful they take no damage. Indeed, if the success was due to the bonus provided by their armour then it might be appropriate with a description of how the character's armour successfully protected the character from the bullets. Anything else would be a clean miss or a clean hit. -K
#21 nix4 Jul 22, 2008 11:16:54	OKAY FINAL MODIFICATION Okay so in trying to get my head wrapped around and to try to keep the rules simple and to the point. I removed allot of what I added...the basic rule that I'm going to use in my campaign for autofire is this: Autofire ================= Same as RAW except for targets that fail their Reflex save, can use Damage Reduction to lower the amount of damage they take. ================= Using Flatfooted Defense factored in character level (so does Reflex save), which makes autofire pointless and weaker than RAW. Reflex save factors in the armors armor check penalty so you get penalized for wearing armor but recieve none of the benefit when getting hit (which is unfair and broken). So, instead of using Flat Footed Defense, use Damage Reduction if your armor has it ( you got hit because you failed your Reflex check, so Equipment Bonus should not apply, now its a matter of your armors ability to soak pure damage). Thank you all for all the feedback, allot of help here in thinking about this from different angles.