Average Damage for ship weapons - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Average Damage for ship weapons

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mxninja54
Apr 23, 2008 23:16:49 My crew wants to make a turret with 2 fire-linked Fusion cannons... (14d8 each, converted to 21d8 when linked)

What is the formula for calculating average damage?
#2
steventirey1985
Apr 24, 2008 9:17:18 Average damage per damage die:

d4 = 2.5
d6 = 3.5
d8 = 4.5
d10 = 5.5
d12 = 6.5

Multiply the appropriate number above by the total number of dice. So 21d8 would average 21 x 4.5 = 94.5 damage, rounded down to 94.
#3
field_medic
Apr 24, 2008 15:02:55 If you want a more precise way to calculate average damage:

For a 1d6

Multiply the probability of each roll by it's value and then divide by the dice max value, e.g.

1 x 1 + 1 x 2 + 1 x 3 + 1 x 4 + 1 x 5 + 1 x 6 = 21

21/6 = 3.5

So a 14d8 would be (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1)/8 or 4.5. Times 14 is 63 average damage.

Or as steve mentioned, use the averages and simply multiply by the number of dice.
#4
mxninja54
Apr 24, 2008 16:15:42 Okkies thanks... I was close... I took 1/2 of the 14d3 (or 63) and added it, but rounded it up to 95.... that seems like a lot of damage... seeing as how their Ultralight freighter only has 200 Hit points... (10d20 max) with Hardness of 30 (Ceremetal armor)... I mean thats only like 3 hits and their ship is toast??? that's a lot of wealth DC's down the tube....
#5
steventirey1985
Apr 24, 2008 17:32:26 It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy.

The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd).

I would recommend using a different set of rules for starships. D20 Mecha (if you can find it) isn't bad, and is available for free if you know where to look. Cyberdave's rules here on the boards are also pretty good.
#6
backstabbist
Apr 25, 2008 10:40:16 Sure Ultralights get wasted by just a few hits from the biggest guns.
That makes sense, a PT Boat would get obliterated by just one shell from a 16" Battleship gun... or even just one 8" Cruiser gun.

The big problem is that the game allows mounting the same 16" Battleship gun on a PT boat, because the game doesnt recognize that anything can be bigger than 128'. Anything over 64' is collosal(-8), so the PTBoat & Battleship are the same size, and can mount the same weapons. This is either ludicrus that the PT boat gets 3 of the 16" Battleship guns, or looking the other way, the Battleship only can mount 12 of the guns that fit a PTBoat- 1.5". To keep this is perspective, the Iowa had 9 of the 16" along with 80 of the 40mm guns (equiv to having 40 PT boats mounted to the deck). Then for giggles they add the firepower of 4 or 5 Destroyers to the deck with 20 of the 5" guns.

So in one big volley, the Battleship did the same damage as
2 Cruisers [9x 16"]
+ 5 destroyers [20x 5"]
+ 40 PT boats [80x 40mm]

The game says the big ship guns can mount to Collosal(-8) minimum size, but even the tiny Escorts are Collosal(-8). We end up letting a 100' boat mount 3 or 4 of the 66' 4story tall 16" battleship guns.

Gunpowder Firearm tech weapons scale from tiny 22 Derringers to 50BMG Rifles, to 40mm Cannon, to 16" Navalgun. It is the same technology, just built bigger. Same with current Laser technology: We can pop a baloon with a pistol sized lalser with 10 or 20 balloon battery, but we can also carve out designs from paper with a desktop laser, and cut steel plate with an industrial minivan sized laser. The technology is just scaled up to bigger sizes that do more damage.

Unfortunately, while the game admits that Lasers will be every size from Pistols to SniperRifles to MechWeaps, to ShipMounts, they just kinda forgot that as they get bigger they do more damage... look at the Huge McLaser vs the biggest ship laser in the book. Where is the laser we would put on a battleship, why do lasers stop getting bigger & more powerful? Why do ship weapons (of one type) only come in 2 sizes, and not all weapons even have that. The bigest ships laser (8d8) can only mount on a collosal ship, which is a 100' boat, they completly ignore that bigger ships would need bigger guns than that, Destroyer Laser (10d8), CruiserLaser(12d8), BattleshipLaser(14d8).

Even the missiles are no good: MM Blackhawk Sidewinder does 20d6, but the future has improved that to just 6d12. Considering we currently have a Mach2 Sidewinder with vectored thrust, meaning it wold do ok guiding in space with slight reprogramming, the game gives them 1mile in 1 round attack... 5000' or 10 space sq short range instant missile or use the standard Sidewinder rules for a Medium Range 20d6 CHE Homing Missile. But the Future has made missiles worse than the ones we have now, just as they have made BattleshipGuns worse than the ones we had in WW2.
#7
tema69
Apr 25, 2008 11:34:45 The Colossal as a maximum size cap dates back from D&D where it doesn't get much bigger than Colossal Red Dragons 'n stuff... Except that in the modern world, and even more in a futuristic world, things tend to be sligthly bigger.
Hmmm...
Should we create bigger size categories?

On another note: I can't find Cyberdave's rules, does anyone have a link?
#8
doomsought
Apr 25, 2008 11:57:49 My solution is to just use the ship classes as the next few size categorizes,
(light -16, medium weight -32, etc)
all the size modifiers geometric, very easy to calculate given the previous term.
although I'd eventually cap it off saying anything more than three size categories larger than you and withing your first range increment is considered "the ground."
#9
mxninja54
Apr 25, 2008 12:27:44 Not a problem... I went with the "Old" Starships of the Galaxy rules set and swapped out "hyperdrives" for Jumpdrives from Travellers... More realistic weapons damage and 1 week travel time per jump... (up to 6 parsecs).... Thanks for all the input
#10
jekolmy
Apr 25, 2008 15:07:52
It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy.

The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd).

I would recommend using a different set of rules for starships. D20 Mecha (if you can find it) isn't bad, and is available for free if you know where to look. Cyberdave's rules here on the boards are also pretty good.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=698429 Is Cyber-Dave's Ruleset for starships... the rest of his threads (which are also very good) are in his signature. And I agree that the starship rules in D20 Future are really screwed up too.
#11
backstabbist
Apr 25, 2008 15:30:44
My solution is to just use the ship classes as the next few size categorizes,
(light -16, medium weight -32, etc)

We've done this before here.
You run into the problem of that concept being based on Melee. As things get bigger, they get stronger, which grants plusses tohit for melee. Ogres, Giants, Titans... each gets more size penalty, but also each get more strenth bonus tohit. Unfortunately, if you give them Giants & Titans really big crossbows, you find that they dont get any Dexterity increase with size, so they cant hit anything with ranged combat. ~~Try looing at a Giant using a bow for giggles~~
Gold Dragon:
Attack StrBonus goes from +3 to +18 as they get bigger, but they end up at collosal(-8) with just +10 over their BAB :
47STR (+18) but -8Size leave them with +10 over BAB for melee.
Now look at one throwing a rock,
10DEX (+0) when little, but in the end they get 10Dex (+0) with the -8Size for -8 on thier BAB when ranged.

Melee is at BAB +10
Ranged is at BAB -8

Cause his Strength went up with size, but dex dont.... and Ships get neither.

Did you notice how the Ships get the penalties, but the lions share of ship attacks are ranged? Collosal Escort is (-8) to hit other guys, and thier Def gets worse by 8.... now shoot from a Destroyer (Light -16?) at the Escort(c-8), and the Destroyer takes the -16Tohit the Escort that is only 8 worse Def. Try it again with a Cruiser(med -32?) and the Cruiser is -32 Tohit 200' Escort. Can you imagine a gunner with +11/+6/+1 taking a -64 Size Penalty from a Battleship(large -64?) trying to hit a Def7 Escort, with a targeting computer that only gives +4 or 5?

We quickly realized the ginormous ships need to use "Turrets" of much smaller SizePenalties, so the Ship may be (med -32) but the PlasCannon Turret attacks as a smaller (Collosal -8) penalty.

That is the basic idea, the details are in the old threads & CyberDaves rules
#12
lonewolf_the_hunter
Apr 25, 2008 17:02:20
It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy.

The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd).

Personaly I follow the 1 per 100HD and added rules for double weapons, and rules that vary how many weapon slots a battery takes up per weapon by ship.
#13
lonewolf_the_hunter
Apr 27, 2008 22:52:45 The average damage listed with the starship weapons seems fair to me after all the last thing I'd want to do is face a Battle ship in an Assult fighter.
#14
always1sttodie
May 05, 2008 21:57:47 I've never had a problem with the rules, mostly because I don't use them. A Dreadnought will possess any amount of weapons that I deem necessary with a BAB to match. It may be easy for it to wipe out a squadron of ultralights or it might be wasted by the ultralights. I don't have to explain the how's or why's.

Size, max weapons, BABs, all that stuff is just relative terms to give you something to work with. It's a game and will never be close to the real thing. Don't think so hard about it, it'll give you wrinkles.

Rules are just guidelines, it's really that simple.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mxninja54 Apr 23, 2008 23:16:49	My crew wants to make a turret with 2 fire-linked Fusion cannons... (14d8 each, converted to 21d8 when linked) What is the formula for calculating average damage?
#2 steventirey1985 Apr 24, 2008 9:17:18	Average damage per damage die: d4 = 2.5 d6 = 3.5 d8 = 4.5 d10 = 5.5 d12 = 6.5 Multiply the appropriate number above by the total number of dice. So 21d8 would average 21 x 4.5 = 94.5 damage, rounded down to 94.
#3 field_medic Apr 24, 2008 15:02:55	If you want a more precise way to calculate average damage: For a 1d6 Multiply the probability of each roll by it's value and then divide by the dice max value, e.g. 1 x 1 + 1 x 2 + 1 x 3 + 1 x 4 + 1 x 5 + 1 x 6 = 21 21/6 = 3.5 So a 14d8 would be (8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1)/8 or 4.5. Times 14 is 63 average damage. Or as steve mentioned, use the averages and simply multiply by the number of dice.
#4 mxninja54 Apr 24, 2008 16:15:42	Okkies thanks... I was close... I took 1/2 of the 14d3 (or 63) and added it, but rounded it up to 95.... that seems like a lot of damage... seeing as how their Ultralight freighter only has 200 Hit points... (10d20 max) with Hardness of 30 (Ceremetal armor)... I mean thats only like 3 hits and their ship is toast??? that's a lot of wealth DC's down the tube....
#5 steventirey1985 Apr 24, 2008 17:32:26	It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy. The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd). I would recommend using a different set of rules for starships. D20 Mecha (if you can find it) isn't bad, and is available for free if you know where to look. Cyberdave's rules here on the boards are also pretty good.
#6 backstabbist Apr 25, 2008 10:40:16	Sure Ultralights get wasted by just a few hits from the biggest guns. That makes sense, a PT Boat would get obliterated by just one shell from a 16" Battleship gun... or even just one 8" Cruiser gun. The big problem is that the game allows mounting the same 16" Battleship gun on a PT boat, because the game doesnt recognize that anything can be bigger than 128'. Anything over 64' is collosal(-8), so the PTBoat & Battleship are the same size, and can mount the same weapons. This is either ludicrus that the PT boat gets 3 of the 16" Battleship guns, or looking the other way, the Battleship only can mount 12 of the guns that fit a PTBoat- 1.5". To keep this is perspective, the Iowa had 9 of the 16" along with 80 of the 40mm guns (equiv to having 40 PT boats mounted to the deck). Then for giggles they add the firepower of 4 or 5 Destroyers to the deck with 20 of the 5" guns. So in one big volley, the Battleship did the same damage as 2 Cruisers [9x 16"] + 5 destroyers [20x 5"] + 40 PT boats [80x 40mm] The game says the big ship guns can mount to Collosal(-8) minimum size, but even the tiny Escorts are Collosal(-8). We end up letting a 100' boat mount 3 or 4 of the 66' 4story tall 16" battleship guns. Gunpowder Firearm tech weapons scale from tiny 22 Derringers to 50BMG Rifles, to 40mm Cannon, to 16" Navalgun. It is the same technology, just built bigger. Same with current Laser technology: We can pop a baloon with a pistol sized lalser with 10 or 20 balloon battery, but we can also carve out designs from paper with a desktop laser, and cut steel plate with an industrial minivan sized laser. The technology is just scaled up to bigger sizes that do more damage. Unfortunately, while the game admits that Lasers will be every size from Pistols to SniperRifles to MechWeaps, to ShipMounts, they just kinda forgot that as they get bigger they do more damage... look at the Huge McLaser vs the biggest ship laser in the book. Where is the laser we would put on a battleship, why do lasers stop getting bigger & more powerful? Why do ship weapons (of one type) only come in 2 sizes, and not all weapons even have that. The bigest ships laser (8d8) can only mount on a collosal ship, which is a 100' boat, they completly ignore that bigger ships would need bigger guns than that, Destroyer Laser (10d8), CruiserLaser(12d8), BattleshipLaser(14d8). Even the missiles are no good: MM Blackhawk Sidewinder does 20d6, but the future has improved that to just 6d12. Considering we currently have a Mach2 Sidewinder with vectored thrust, meaning it wold do ok guiding in space with slight reprogramming, the game gives them 1mile in 1 round attack... 5000' or 10 space sq short range instant missile or use the standard Sidewinder rules for a Medium Range 20d6 CHE Homing Missile. But the Future has made missiles worse than the ones we have now, just as they have made BattleshipGuns worse than the ones we had in WW2.
#7 tema69 Apr 25, 2008 11:34:45	The Colossal as a maximum size cap dates back from D&D where it doesn't get much bigger than Colossal Red Dragons 'n stuff... Except that in the modern world, and even more in a futuristic world, things tend to be sligthly bigger. Hmmm... Should we create bigger size categories? On another note: I can't find Cyberdave's rules, does anyone have a link?
#8 doomsought Apr 25, 2008 11:57:49	My solution is to just use the ship classes as the next few size categorizes, (light -16, medium weight -32, etc) all the size modifiers geometric, very easy to calculate given the previous term. although I'd eventually cap it off saying anything more than three size categories larger than you and withing your first range increment is considered "the ground."
#9 mxninja54 Apr 25, 2008 12:27:44	Not a problem... I went with the "Old" Starships of the Galaxy rules set and swapped out "hyperdrives" for Jumpdrives from Travellers... More realistic weapons damage and 1 week travel time per jump... (up to 6 parsecs).... Thanks for all the input
#10 jekolmy Apr 25, 2008 15:07:52	It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy. The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd). I would recommend using a different set of rules for starships. D20 Mecha (if you can find it) isn't bad, and is available for free if you know where to look. Cyberdave's rules here on the boards are also pretty good. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=698429 Is Cyber-Dave's Ruleset for starships... the rest of his threads (which are also very good) are in his signature. And I agree that the starship rules in D20 Future are really screwed up too.
#11 backstabbist Apr 25, 2008 15:30:44	My solution is to just use the ship classes as the next few size categorizes, (light -16, medium weight -32, etc) We've done this before here. You run into the problem of that concept being based on Melee. As things get bigger, they get stronger, which grants plusses tohit for melee. Ogres, Giants, Titans... each gets more size penalty, but also each get more strenth bonus tohit. Unfortunately, if you give them Giants & Titans really big crossbows, you find that they dont get any Dexterity increase with size, so they cant hit anything with ranged combat. ~~Try looing at a Giant using a bow for giggles~~ Gold Dragon: Attack StrBonus goes from +3 to +18 as they get bigger, but they end up at collosal(-8) with just +10 over their BAB : 47STR (+18) but -8Size leave them with +10 over BAB for melee. Now look at one throwing a rock, 10DEX (+0) when little, but in the end they get 10Dex (+0) with the -8Size for -8 on thier BAB when ranged. Melee is at BAB +10 Ranged is at BAB -8 Cause his Strength went up with size, but dex dont.... and Ships get neither. Did you notice how the Ships get the penalties, but the lions share of ship attacks are ranged? Collosal Escort is (-8) to hit other guys, and thier Def gets worse by 8.... now shoot from a Destroyer (Light -16?) at the Escort(c-8), and the Destroyer takes the -16Tohit the Escort that is only 8 worse Def. Try it again with a Cruiser(med -32?) and the Cruiser is -32 Tohit 200' Escort. Can you imagine a gunner with +11/+6/+1 taking a -64 Size Penalty from a Battleship(large -64?) trying to hit a Def7 Escort, with a targeting computer that only gives +4 or 5? We quickly realized the ginormous ships need to use "Turrets" of much smaller SizePenalties, so the Ship may be (med -32) but the PlasCannon Turret attacks as a smaller (Collosal -8) penalty. That is the basic idea, the details are in the old threads & CyberDaves rules
#12 lonewolf_the_hunter Apr 25, 2008 17:02:20	It may seem like a lot for an ultralight, but it's practically nothing for a superheavy. The starship rules in d20 Future are a joke. Your ultralight freighter can have 3 fusion cannons, but the dreadnought that's many, many times bigger than your little ship can only have 12 of the exact same weapon? (Or 8, the book is not really clear. One part says superheavy ships have 1 weapon per 150 hp, while the examples show 1 weapon per 100 hd). Personaly I follow the 1 per 100HD and added rules for double weapons, and rules that vary how many weapon slots a battery takes up per weapon by ship.
#13 lonewolf_the_hunter Apr 27, 2008 22:52:45	The average damage listed with the starship weapons seems fair to me after all the last thing I'd want to do is face a Battle ship in an Assult fighter.
#14 always1sttodie May 05, 2008 21:57:47	I've never had a problem with the rules, mostly because I don't use them. A Dreadnought will possess any amount of weapons that I deem necessary with a BAB to match. It may be easy for it to wipe out a squadron of ultralights or it might be wasted by the ultralights. I don't have to explain the how's or why's. Size, max weapons, BABs, all that stuff is just relative terms to give you something to work with. It's a game and will never be close to the real thing. Don't think so hard about it, it'll give you wrinkles. Rules are just guidelines, it's really that simple.