Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gardag Jul 30, 2009 22:26:02	I'm planing an adventure with a lot of warfare, between races in diferent progress levels, so I was reading my books (D20 future & Core Rulebook) when I encountered a little detail (I need help or suggestions for house rules) The Abrams Battle Tank has 64hp.....WHAT?????? But even the Large mechas of progress level 5 have 100hp.... WHAT?????? that's 46hp more thant the Tank, even the Space Shuttle has 100hp and the same hardness, so I was wondering shouldn't the Abrams have more hp or the Shuttle and the Large Mecha less hp, I know this is a too much too hardcore question, but I'd apreciate any comment that will help me in balancing this 2 Warmachines
#2 narukagami Jul 31, 2009 1:46:02	I'll give you the same advice I give everyone else: use d20 Mecha, rules are linked in my sig. The mecha rules in d20 Future are garbage, plain and simple. The d20 Mecha rules, though having a few minor quirks of its own, are at least made to work completely in line with the Modern vehicle rules and statistics.
#3 ack Jul 31, 2009 10:38:07	Ahh yes ... the main battle tank with less hit points than a 10th level Tough character. And in fact, if that Tough character was standing on top of the tank when a 90-point explosion went off, even if he didn't make the Reflex check, the tank would be wrecked but he'd be fine. Pardon me if I have issues with that.
#4 backstabbist Jul 31, 2009 11:11:16	+1 "issues" Modern has a real problem when things get bigger than character scale, such as the dismal damage of heavy weapons, and the coresponding dismality of heavy target Hardness/HP. Just as the bad 50BMG stats make it hard to stat mag rifles, the poor Abrams numbers make it hard to stat Shermans Panzers & Tigers to be harder to kill than a 5th level Smart
#5 narukagami Jul 31, 2009 11:31:33	We could always go the Palladium and Cthulhutech rout and have completely different HP and damage scales for characters and big stuff. :P
#6 backstabbist Jul 31, 2009 12:35:57	I really dont see how a tank with 64HP would be different from a tank with 0.06kHP or a tank with 64000 miliHitPoints and a .308 does 2000-20000 miliHP It really is a mater of first admitting the tank should be much harder to kill than a Tough, then just giving it numbers to express that. A very simple solution would be to grant (mm eRHA)/10 Hardness to armor. Unlike battleships, which have steel walls inside, tanks are soft inside.... get a shot inside and they "die"(out of action) easy, moreso for the crew. We did a formula based workup for WW2 tanks/tankguns (Tema69?), which can simply have another coefficient or DIeSize change to fit different PLs. If we say a ww2 Tankgun did (mm/10)d8 (plus AP,BC,AT features) why not just drop in d10s for PL6 weapon techs, and d12s & d20s for PL7 & PL8? But first off, the d20Future mecha rules are pure garbage. In addition to all the other problems they have, while reality has small tanks carry small (30-57mm) guns and big tanks carry big (76-140mm) guns, the RAW mecha Recoiless comes in only the little version, no matter how big your mech is you get the peashooter. Your 120' giant robot has to hold the little Warpath with tweezers rather than getting a big recoiless that shoots shells the size of large mechs at large mechs
#7 dbay Jul 31, 2009 15:06:41	The abrams does 10d12 damage compared to the Warpath's (one of the more powerful mecha guns) 10d6. So if the mecha has twice the hp but half the damage, it works out somewhere in the vicinity of "okay". However, that's mostly coincidence, I suspect. The tank is a lot faster- the mecha only goes a little faster than people do. Tank is cheaper. As for the tough hero thing, I think MAS was supposed to balance that out- but with a straight 15 save, it doesnt. We houseruled it that for every time you add another MAS threshold to the damage, you add+5 to the DC. So if someone has a MAS of 10 and takes 20 damage, DC 20 (15+5). 30 damage, DC 25 (15+5+5), etc. It means that from something like 90 damage you're probably dead or dying unless you seriously optimized your fort save. Let's give this tough 16 CON (elite ability, ish), at level ten he has +8 to fort with a MAS of 16. 90 damage is five times his MAS, so it's 15+(4x5)=DC 35 save. He's dead unless he gets a nat 20. So far the houserule works fairly well, and it keeps the PCs actually scared of silly things like heavy artillery and rockets.
#8 narukagami Jul 31, 2009 16:02:07	I find houseruleing MAS to be DC 10+1/2 damage dealt to be perfectly balanced and scales well enough into the higher levels. As for mecha. They're vehicles with legs. They shouldn't be treated otherwise. The mecha rules and vehicle rules should coincide with each other, and WORK with each other in mind. This is one of the many places where Future dropped the ball. d20 Mecha picked the ball up and went with it. As for differing HP scales, backstabbist, the systems I mentioned as examples also treat taking damage from the different sources completely different. In Palladium's system something with Mega Damage Capacity can only be damaged by weapons that deal Mega Damage, period. you can unload an entire machinegun on a tank with MDC and you'll only ever scratch the paint. While on the other side of that, one point of Mega Damage is equal to 100 points of normal scale damage (SDC), so if you got hit with a tank's cannon, you will die, period. Though, these systems have their own problems regarding their different scales. :P
#9 backstabbist Jul 31, 2009 16:35:07	something with Mega Damage Capacity can only be damaged by weapons that deal Mega Damage, period. you can unload an entire machinegun on a tank with MDC and you'll only ever scratch the paint. C4 Would C4 do 'mega' damage? Cause you can survive a little c4 exploding on you, but you can kill a tank with enough blocks. The 'mega' system is incorporating ~hardness~ into the damage, a correctly scaled 37mm ATgun doing 80-90dmg would bounce off everything Mega, but we know it was for anti-tank work. I'm not here to argue Mega is worthless, but it is not required in a game system that has Hardness. I could say that Frobaz Damage is 10x regular damage, and you need a weapon that does Frobaz damage to damage steel door...... or obviously just use a regular weapon that does more than 10 to beat the 10Hardness. If a tank has hardness20, you dont need a weapon that does Mega (100x), you need a weapon that does more than 20 you can unload an entire machinegun on a tank with MDC 20Hardness and you'll only ever scratch the paint
#10 dbay Jul 31, 2009 17:22:41	I'm thinking the tanks may have been balanced against level one ordinaries? An ordinary tough has something like 7 hp at level one, and the abrams has 64 with hardness 20. That seems around okay- a shot that could immediately turn the tough into a splatter (17 damage, putting the tough to straight dead) wouldn't even touch the tank. Also, guns go up to around 2d12 (except for the really insane ones) which have basically no chance of hurting a tank. It breaks down rapidly for heroes or anyone with more than one level, when you use double tap or burst fire (maybe burst fire should be against double hardness?) and things like that. I still blame massive damage. It's the only thing that keeps flesh squishy, and I think that's what made the designers let the tank get away so weak. It's just not as deadly as they thought it would be. I'll try out the 10+1/2 damage rule, see how the players react.
#11 narukagami Jul 31, 2009 20:17:39	In the end I agree with what backstabbist is (I think) saying, probably the best way to do it in d20 would just give these armored vehicles good hardness, and make it so weapons meant to go up against these vehicles have some degree of armor penetration. d20 Mecha does all that. Though, for additional options, backstabbist also suggested a good idea of "half" qualities and defects in an older thread.
#12 gardag Jul 31, 2009 23:25:23	It really is a mater of first admitting the tank should be much harder to kill than a Tough, then just giving it numbers to express that. A very simple solution would be to grant (mm eRHA)/10 Hardness to armor. Unlike battleships, which have steel walls inside, tanks are soft inside.... get a shot inside and they "die"(out of action) easy, moreso for the crew. Backstabbist, do you think more hardness alone should be enough, or should I give more hp to the Abrams also , I mean the Abrams should be able to kick the the Large Mechas butt no sweat, Large Mecha is suposed to be just infantry support, am I right?
#13 ack Aug 01, 2009 0:13:32	Mecha are built for mobility and speed. They can't carry the armour that a tank can, but they can wade through lakes and step over ditches. They can also stand up to peer over obstacles, crouch down behind cover, and even hide in (large) buildings. They can't really wear angled armour like a tank can, and legs are less robust than treads for carrying weight. But they can cover terrain much better. They are also better off with machineguns and missile pods, given that a long gunbarrel is best off on a mecha-scale rifle rather than a built-in gun (except on a battleship-scale mecha). Tanks can carry that long barrel because they don't need to be so flexible in movement. For a real-life headstart on the battlesuit/mecha concept, check here.
#14 Waylan_Wolf Aug 01, 2009 8:58:45	well the abrams already has 20 hardness, but I would go further and suggest that you multiply its HP by 10. I mean for crying out loud its a gargantuan vehicle... if you used the D20 Future/Future tech construction rules, you could build a gargantuan tracked mecha with 400 bonus HP just as a starting point... If you use the mecha as vehicles rules, you get an extra 120 HP as the BASE for a gargantuan vehicle... right there should tell you that the Abrams is too flimsy. but then you have to deal with the pathetically weak Mecha weapons... 10d6 from the Warpath RR means 35 points of damage on average... that means the tank is only going to take 15 points of damage from each successful hit after you subtract hardness... now if you've got 4 PCs in large mecha against a single tank, then that's ~60 points of damage per round, making for at least 10 rounds of combat barring critical hits. The tank on the other hand, is going to be doing 65 points of damage on each successful hit, and against a large PL6 mecha with an average hardness of 15, that's 50 points of damage each hit... that means that 3 shots will take out a single mecha. In my opinion, that makes for a tough, scary, relatively even fight, especially since the PCs will probably hit every round, while the tank will usually miss, but do scary (but not quite lethal) damage when it hits.
#15 backstabbist Aug 01, 2009 9:58:37	If we look at the tank as a Gargan Mecha, how many 'slots' can be used to hold a Warpath RR? This is our old friend Non-Scaling Weapons coming back again, the big maingun on a Gargan tank is limited to the lil gun a Large mech can have 2 of (Arm). Why cant a Gargan tank have a 5"Navalgun instead of being limited to carrying a dozen of the 40~57mm large mech ArmGuns? Backstabbist, do you think more hardness alone should be enough, or should I give more hp to the Abrams also Ignoring the crew, look at the damage just a hand grenade dropped down the hatch can do to the interior equipment.... tanks are hard outside and soft inside, the trick is to get inside thru all that armor. As for how to have a PL5 engage Large mechs, Good ole fashion HE shells, cause it sux to be 5' from a 105/120/140mm HE explosion. The big problem is that real military trys to use tank killer weapons, and the game uses tank fighting weapons... you need to hit a tank a whole bunch of times to kill it, unlike some mook grunt using just 1 or maybe 2 Dragon/Javelin
#16 gardag Aug 01, 2009 11:24:47	Ignoring the crew, look at the damage just a hand grenade dropped down the hatch can do to the interior equipment.... tanks are hard outside and soft inside, the trick is to get inside thru all that armor. But Mechas are supossed to be hard on the interior too, why do they have so many hp. how should I stat the garga Abrams to be able to take on Large PL 5 Mecha, I know PL6 stuff should be too advanced and the Abrams should probably be just a TIN CAN in that era, but in PL 5 Mechas should need special weapons (like a soldier with the Pers Antitank Weap) and not be able to destroy a Abrams with their starndard equipment
#17 malbur Aug 01, 2009 11:34:27	dont forget the Abrams hardness. with a hardness of 20, it would not take any damage from anything with less than 2d12 hit dice. even then it would be rather difficult to do any damage. I think this makes sense as a 2d12 .50 cal sniper rifle is designed to penetrate tank armor, just cause it can, doesn't mean it's a simple feat to do...
#18 gardag Aug 01, 2009 13:00:09	but malbur isn't the .50 caliber made for light armored vehicles, we are talking here about a 62 TON Tank
#19 ack Aug 02, 2009 1:20:29	Note also that the .50 cal will probably punch through APC armour, possibly through the rear armour of an Abrams, maybe through the side armour - but not in a million years through the front armour.
#20 narukagami Aug 02, 2009 3:29:10	d20 Mecha handles that via the Directional Optimized Armor feature. :P
#21 dbay Aug 02, 2009 12:54:43	Are there any rules for crafting vehicles and such in D20 Mecha?
#22 narukagami Aug 02, 2009 16:41:45	d20 Mecha's rules are entirely for crafting vehicles and mecha in various forms.
#23 gardag Aug 02, 2009 23:15:44	d20 Mecha's rules are entirely for crafting vehicles and mecha in various forms. So can I make a fair balance between the Abrams and the Large Mecha with those set of rules?, will those rules allow me to make them both from scratch or balance them with the already known rules?, any of those would be sweeeet
#24 backstabbist Aug 02, 2009 23:42:49	Those rules can give a numeric value to anything you dream up, given that all features cost points, so you can get 'fair' contests for a given point value. If you build the Tank spending a lot of points on armor and firepower, then you can have the same number of points to spend on the mech.... on all kinds of features in addition to whatever firepower & armor you give it. What those rules DONT do is apply limits to making things. If you want to make a infantry equipment 10d12 pistol, it would simply cost as many MP as a 10d12 tankgun.... it is up to the GM to impose (alternate)Reality Check to have everything make sense. The d20Mecha rules can allow insane damage pistols because the rules only balance effects, not impose tech level limits : We all know a gunpowder pistol wont to 10d12, but the rules accept that there could be FrobaziumEffect (or whatever fluff text you call it) pistols that do, and gives the MP value of having that FEPistol as very very expensive but not impossible. d20MEcha is good at what it does, but it is not a shopping list of things to bolt onto the chassis.
#25 narukagami Aug 03, 2009 0:19:59	Yeah, d20 Mecha works best when the DM uses it to construct a shopping list, instead of working as a shopping list in itself.
#26 gardag Aug 03, 2009 11:37:56	Oh, I get it, so I gotta be careful with with what I do so I don't end up making Anti-tank revolvers or Nuke-packed Large Mechas, thanks I'll give it a shot then and see what solution can I come up with
#27 backstabbist Aug 03, 2009 19:30:57	so I don't end up making Anti-tank revolvers or Nuke-packed Large Mechas As a guy that has stat'ed a 12ga SlugNuke for modern/pl6-7 games, I am going to have to abstain from comment here ;)
#28 dbay Aug 03, 2009 21:05:11	d20 Mecha's rules are entirely for crafting vehicles and mecha in various forms. No, I meant using the craft skill. Building the stuff. EDIT: While we're on topic, are there any good premade mecha using these rules? Especially modern ones.
#29 narukagami Aug 04, 2009 0:21:00	No, I meant using the craft skill. Building the stuff. I would imagine using the standard craft rules, using the formula to turn Total MP into a PDC. EDIT: While we're on topic, are there any good premade mecha using these rules? Especially modern ones. d20 Mecha Compendium Deluxe Edition from Dream Pod 9 has several example settings along with the d20 Mecha rules, including d20 stats for mecha from their Jovian Chronicles, Heavy Gear, and Gear Krieg games. Military Vehicles is a book that stats up modern military vehicles from all over the world using the d20 Mecha system. Also from Dream Pod 9 is the 3rd edition Heavy Gear Vehicle Companion that dual-stats Gears and Vehicles from the Heavy Gear universe in both their SilCore system and using the d20 Mecha stats.
#30 gardag Aug 04, 2009 23:34:39	This is what I got for my Abrams with de D20 Mecha rules, is the 1st time I use this rules so please correct me if you see anything wrong M1 Abrams (Main Battle Tank) Type: Vehicle Class: Main Battle Tank Size: Gargantuan HP: 100hp (120 Mecha points) Occupants: 4 (40 Mecha points) Cargo: 425lb (3 Mecha points) Armour: 30 (150 Mecha points) Equipment bonus +8 (64 Mecha points) Defence: 14 (10 +8 Equimpment Bonus -4 Size) Strength: NONE Land Speed: 65kmph (7 Chase squares/350ft) (32 Mecha points) Handling: +0 (-4 Size +4 Base) (20 Mecha points) Initiative: -2 (-4 Size +2 Base) (10 Mecha points) Special Abilities: Chobham Armour (30 Mecha points), Reactive Armour (8 Mecha points), Infrared vision 4 miles (20 Mecha points), Stabilization Gear (10 Mecha points), Targeting Bonus +4 (20 Mecha points), Radar 4 miles (32 Mecha points) Exotic Abilities: NONE Defects: Noisy (-5 Mecha points), Road Vehicle (-4 Mecha points), Volatile (-32 Mecha points), Weaponry: Weapon-----/120 mm M256 smoothbore cannon/ 12.7 mm M2HB machine gun Damage-----/10d12---------------------------/ 4d12 Critical------/20------------------------------/ 20 Type--------/Ballistic------------------------ / Ballistic Rate of Fire--/Single--------------------------/ Automatic Range-------/600ft---------------------------/ 150ft Qualities-----/Armor Penetrating 2, Extra Ammo/ Autofire Restrictions--/Crew Serve, Slow Firing---------/ Exposed Cost---------/130MP ------------------------/ 52mp Required Feats or Skills: Drive Cost: 700 Mecha points ($4,350,000/Purchase DC 46)
#31 AnimeSniper Aug 05, 2009 22:09:59	Looks Good and like how it has a 100HP which could make it a Mk II or III
#32 backstabbist Aug 06, 2009 9:53:02	I always have a problem with just picking a number for a large version of something without getting the numbers for all the versions that work up to that big one. 25 Bushmaster 30 Avenger 40 Bofor 57 AT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVais1ooSq4) 76 Sherman 88 Tiger 105 Abrams 120 Abrams 140 Rhinemetal How much damage would a 120mm HollowPoint do? Now add 7lb compA (16d6: 4d6+12d6) into that hollow part and you get the damage of a 120 HE 57mm AT guns killed tanks with 90-140mm armor. 40Bofors a couple years back stot a DU dart thru a m60tank
#33 narukagami Aug 06, 2009 15:51:06	I recommend ramping up the hardness and giving it the Front Optimized Armor defect, since tank armor is, well, front optimized. The book Military Vehicles, which stats modern vehicles using the d20 Mecha system, gives the M1 Abrams 66 hp but 48 front armor. They use different formulas for their stats though. Their HP formula is: 23 x (square root of the vehicle's usual operating weight in tons) and their Armor formula is: 5 x (cube root of RHA equivalent). (Which is about 900mm for the M1A2) 57mm AT guns killed tanks with 90-140mm armor. 40Bofors a couple years back stot a DU dart thru a m60tank Weapons with the Armor Penetration quality against the side armor of something with the Front Optimized Armor defect do a LOT of damage. Against Military Vehicles' version of the Abrams, you'd only be shooting against an armor DR of 12 if your weapon has Armor Penetration.
#34 backstabbist Aug 09, 2009 9:27:52	Who needs tanks or mechs when you can call these boys Close quarters combat effective firepower "You 20 guys shoot at the mech, you other 30 shoot at the tank"
#35 gardag Aug 11, 2009 22:50:43	I recommend ramping up the hardness and giving it the Front Optimized Armor defect, since tank armor is, well, front optimized. Dude you are right I totally forgot the Front Optimized Armor, so you think Optimized Armor and more Hardness would do?
#36 dbay Aug 12, 2009 1:31:32	Maybe a few little gadgets here and there, too. I think they frequently have smoke grenade launchers and searchlights, or have I been playing to much W40k? Some of them have an optional .50cal coaxial gun, and there are a pair of M2HBs from hatches. I think.
#37 narukagami Aug 12, 2009 1:38:07	Dude you are right I totally forgot the Front Optimized Armor, so you think Optimized Armor and more Hardness would do? Yes. The reason d20 Mecha technically uses the term "Armor" instead of "Hardness" is because its also representative of damage-minimizing techniques such as sloped armor, not just the inherent penetration resistance of the plates. Tank armor is sloped to minimize the damage from taking a hit to the front. A tank driver is thus taught to never expose his side to enemy armor, you drive backwards while firing in an engagement with other tanks. Also, as dbay pointed out, there are numerous other gadgets on a modern tank. Its easy to overlook these things, but some research into wikipedia or other sources would help. Remember a lot of things that are significant to mention but don't have a big impact on the stats can be covered by the Accessory trait.
#38 gardag Aug 16, 2009 22:03:28	Well I did some changes, I actually realized Iwas wrong on the armor Mecha cost, so this is the Abrams revised version, I'm still open for advise and some changes, I used 1 extra Mecha point for a total of 701; changes are underlined M1A2 Abrams (Main Battle Tank) Type: Vehicle Class: Main Battle Tank Size: Gargantuan HP: 100hp (120 Mecha points) Occupants: 4 (40 Mecha points) Cargo: 425lb (3 Mecha points) Armour: 30 (150 Mecha points) Equipment bonus +4 (20 Mecha points) Defence: 10 (10 +4 Equimpment Bonus -4 Size) Strength: NONE Land Speed: 65kmph (7 Chase squares/350ft) (120 Mecha points) Handling: +0 (-4 Size +4 Base) (20 Mecha points) Initiative: -2 (-4 Size +2 Base) (10 Mecha points) Special Abilities: Chobham Armour (30 Mecha points), Reactive Armour (8 Mecha points), Infrared vision 3 miles (15 Mecha points), Stabilization Gear (10 Mecha points), Targeting Bonus +4 (20 Mecha points), Radar 3 miles (24 Mecha points) Exotic Abilities: NONE Defects: Noisy (-5 Mecha points), Road Vehicle (-4 Mecha points), Volatile (-32 Mecha points), Front Optimized Armor (-30 Mecha Points) Weaponry: Weapon-----/120 mm M256 smoothbore cannon/ 12.7 mm M2HB machine gun Damage-----/10d12---------------------------/ 4d12 Critical------/20------------------------------/ 20 Type--------/Ballistic------------------------ / Ballistic Rate of Fire--/Single--------------------------/ Automatic Range-------/600ft---------------------------/ 150ft Qualities-----/Armor Penetrating 2, Extra Ammo/ Autofire Restrictions--/Crew Serve, Slow Firing---------/ Exposed Cost---------/130MP ------------------------/ 52mp Required Feats or Skills: Drive Cost: 701 Mecha points ($4,350,000/Purchase DC 46)
#39 narukagami Aug 16, 2009 22:22:08	I'd still seriously consider upping the hardness, especially since you're using the Front Optimized Armor defect. As of now your tank has a side hardness of 15, a handgun can penetrate the side armor. I wouldn't use a hardness less than 40 a modern MBT, myself.
#40 gardag Aug 17, 2009 9:58:59	But the Front omptimized leaves the side hardness on 20 not 15, and I don't what to take so MP ramains balanced, 40 Armor means 50 more MP, I agree 40 Armor seems more precise, but I dont know what to take
#41 narukagami Aug 17, 2009 12:14:41	What are you balancing the MP against? I'm not following your logic here. Abrams are advanced and expensive, so I don't know what else to say but "suck it up and go for the accuracy" :P. So you're going to have to decide whats more important, keeping it close to 700mp or reflecting the Abrams tank. You could make up for some of the extra MP by lowering the HP a bit and/or doing away with the equipment bonus to defense (no vehicles in Modern gets a defense bonus). If you absolutely refuse to up the hardness, then do away with the Front Optimized Armor, right now your tank can be destroyed by an assault rifle d-tapped or burst fired to the side.
#42 gardag Aug 17, 2009 21:44:43	Ok I get it, I'll bust up the hardness and post the new Abrams
#43 backstabbist Aug 17, 2009 22:07:28	Perhaps you should first stat up a Sherman, then the m60, THEN make the Abrams better than those. Just be sure not to downgrade the Sherman, in an effort to keep the Abrams reasonable, to the point that the Sherman is a joke
#44 narukagami Aug 17, 2009 22:34:52	Just be sure not to downgrade the Sherman, in an effort to keep the Abrams reasonable, to the point that the Sherman is a joke Yeah, it does a good enough job of that on its own. :P
#45 backstabbist Aug 17, 2009 22:38:03	When all you got is a Mauser and a couple PotatoMashers, the joke of a Sherman is a lot less funny ;) ;)
#46 AnimeSniper Sep 01, 2009 20:43:50	When all you got is a Mauser and a couple PotatoMashers, the joke of a Sherman is a lot less funny ;) ;) GM: Roll your move silently... succeed GM: Roll your climb... Succeed GM: Okay so you're in the tree what do you do... okay make your balance check... succeed... now what do you do Player: I arm one potato smasher before dropping it in the open turret hatch GM: Okay you succeed now make your Fort save... sorry you fail and don't argue cause the tank explodes beneath you detonating the ammo inside