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| #1pursusNov 05, 2009 13:57:06 | I’m trying out a game of D20 modern with my gaming group, and we’re basically completely new to pen and paper gaming. We dabbled in D&D like five years ago but it didn’t last more than a few sessions because our DM (now one of my players) didn’t have the time to devote to fully learning it. I’ve decided to really pour some time into preparation to make this work and hopefully it’ll be fun. We’re starting with a zombie apocalypse setting. Everyone says it sounds like fun, plus it should be easier for me because I won’t have to jump right into all of the wealth/society/magic rules that a true Department-7 type game would. I want to stick to the official rules as much as possible in an attempt to keep the challenge ratings legitimate and preserve the class balance as best as I can. I’ve marked my specific questions with asterisks, if you guys can answer any of them definitively, I would very much appreciate it. *My big problem at the moment is trying to figure out exactly how to make different kinds of zombies. These are the areas of the core rulebook I was looking at: Humanoid Type - page 220 Undead Type - 223 Zombie Template - page 267-8 At first, I figured I could just use the rules for making a medium-sized undead-type with different hit dice (and a few minor changes for flavor) and call it a day. Then I got to the Zombie Template and now I have no idea at all. How does this template work, and why is the CR so low? If I’m not just making a basic undead-type, how to I add hit dice and stuff to make a beefier zombie? *Also, how many attacks do these zombies actually get in a full attack? I see different damage ranges for bite, claw, and slam. Do they dual wield, or do I just pick only one to make an attack with, and the difference is mostly RP based? _______________________________________________________________ I normally would have glossed over the confusing grapple rules, but since it’s zombies I think it’s pretty important. I went through the bullet points and couldn’t find clarifications on these. So, for all of you pros, on to my grappling questions: *Before you initiate a grapple, the opponent gets and AoO, and the grapple fails if they hit you. It doesn’t specify, but is this because it’s an unarmed attack, and will combat martial arts or natural weapons avoid this AoO? Otherwise, is there any other official mechanic (similar to the improved disarm feat) to negate that? I ask because I tried doing a mock combat between a level 2 fast hero and a set of Human zombies (pg 268 version) and the zombies basically killed themselves on AoOs. The only way I could get a grapple somewhat reliably started was to use up the player’s AoO with the first zombie and then the second would actually get a shot at it. *Let’s say the player tries to shoot in melee range and incurs an AoO, and the zombie uses it to try to initiate a grapple. Does the player still get HIS AoO at the start of the zombie’s grapple, or does he lose that because it happened as a result of an AoO that he incurred in the first place? *Please tell me if I have this right: On the list of grapple actions (pg 154), one says “Damage your opponent” with an unarmed attack, and the other says “attack with a light weapon.” I guess the unarmed option would be used by the zombies to do lethal claw/bite damage by substituting the opposed grapple check for a regular attack roll (which is the advantage to grappling in the first place), and the light weapon option would be a normal attack roll that the players (without combat martial arts) would have to use to do lethal damage. *It says you can’t attack with more than one weapon while grappling. A bit earlier it says “if you normally get more than one attack, you can attempt as many of these options as you have attacks available.” So, with Two-weapon fighting and Combat Martial arts, do you get the offhand attacks, or only the extra mainhand attacks that come from a high BAB? Also, if you do have multiple attacks, does that mean you can make multiple attempts at escaping a grapple? Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me!! |
| #2backstabbistNov 05, 2009 19:07:38 | I think this will also help with some of the other questions I saw you post *Let’s say the player tries to shoot in melee range and incurs an AoO, and the zombie uses it to try to initiate a grapple. Does the player still get HIS AoO at the start of the zombie’s grapple, or does he lose that because it happened as a result of an AoO that he incurred in the first place? Looking at it chronologicly:
Further, while our group has been playing to allow interrupts of an interrupt,
Whats important here is that guns dont get to take AoO cause they dont threaten
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| #3rustam1Nov 05, 2009 19:27:28 | jumping straight in to running your own startup campaign is rough. run a few of the free adventures from WotC: d20 Modern Adventures when you got the hang of the rules and encounter interactions, then move on to making your own. ------------ barring that... zombie 'poclypse ...coolness Human Zombie: CR 1/2; Medium-size undead; (from Modern SRD) HD 2d12 plus 3 (Toughness feat); hp 16; Init -1; Spd 30 ft.; Defense 11, touch 9, flat-footed 11 (-1 Dex, +2 natural); BAB +0; Grap +1; Atk +1 melee (1d6+1, slam); Full Atk +1 melee (1d6+1, slam); FS 5 ft. by 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; SQ undead, move or attack action only; AL none or creator; SV Fort +0, Ref -1, Will +3; AP 0; Rep +0; Str 13, Dex 8, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1. Skills: None. Feats: Toughness. Possessions: Burial clothes. ----------------------- first, let's talk about the attacks... hero "Bill" confronts a zombie. zombie suprises Bill when it lurches out (no move action) of shadows making a slam attack. if the slam attack is successful then it attempts the grapple, if the grapple is successful...Bill is grappled and must try to break free for his turn, if he doesn't, the zombie continues the grapple and can inflict more damage on him. ...Bill is gonna die! now, your zombies may not be like the standard shambling groaner Move or Attack Action Only (Ex): A zombie has poor reflexes and can perform only a single move action or attack action on its turn. It can only move and attack if it charges. yours could have a bite attack too...a bite attack that also transmits the "virus". there's a couple or three ways to add the bite to the zombie above... - say if the slam hits then it can try to bite instead of grappling - say it gets both a slam attack and a bite attack - say it gets either the bite or the slam --------------------------- so, does that help? |
| #4rustam1Nov 05, 2009 20:17:32 | here is a little something ... Improved Cinematic Zombie: CR 1/2; Mediumsize undead; HD 2d12 hp 16; Init +0; Spd 30 ft.; Defense 12, touch 12, flat-footed 12 BAB +0; Grap +1; Atk +1 melee (1d6+1, slam); Atk +1 melee (1d6+1, bite); Atk +1 melee (1d4+1, claw); FS 5 ft. by 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.; SQ fever, undead, decapitation; AL none ; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +3; AP 0; Rep +0; Str 13, Dex 10, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1; |
| #5doctor_mcpirateNov 06, 2009 6:22:40 | First thing I will put forward is that you may want to try using the Viral Deathspawn template from d20 apocalypse which is pretty much the standard movie fast zombie (and if you want to make them shamblers, apply the move or attack only rule and reduce the challenge rating). Second of all, also to do with the zombies, I would suggest finding interesting templates and applying them to the zombie you are using in order to make "special infected". As for grapples, I will suggest two things; first, you want to learn the rules, because you are the GM and people expect that of you and because they pretty much clear up all the issues. Second, I would suggest that you treat natural attacks as unarmed for the purpose of dealing damage in a grapple, making enemies with natural attacks (most animals and zombies) very dangerous once they've pinned you down. As for attacks of opportunity, you cannot make an unarmed attack of opportunity (unless you count as armed for some reason) and then the grab attack is almost always an unarmed melee attack (the exception being the ketch-all pole). Also, remember that you can only make one AoO per round and if a character is in a grapple, other grapplers may automatically join in the grapple, meaning that 2 zombies is pretty much death for a lone character without close combat training or quick thinking. I hope this helps you with your game. Doctor out |
| #6pursusNov 06, 2009 10:03:08 | Wow, this forum is pretty buggy, I'm getting all kinds of errors trying to log in and stuff.
Thanks for the info! One more thing, if guns don't provoke, how does that work with regard to the pistol-whip melee weapon/attack? Does a gun only count as a melee weapon if you last used it as a melee weapon or what? This info helps me quite a bit, because I can just have the zombies try for a grapple if there are more than one in melee, if they get an AoO, or if they wouldn't be threatened by one in the first place.
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| #7pursusNov 06, 2009 10:11:21 | jumping straight in to running your own startup campaign is rough. Yeah, I hope it works out, because now I'm committed to the zombie idea. Those adventures look really cool, I'm going to see what I can borrow from those when I can. first, let's talk about the attacks... hero "Bill" confronts a zombie. It sure does! Do you think I should adjust the CR upwards if I take away "move or attack", or give them multiple attacks in a full attack? Improved Cinematic Zombie: CR 1/2; Mediumsize undead; These ones look really cool. |
| #8pursusNov 06, 2009 10:20:56 | First thing I will put forward is that you may want to try using the Viral Deathspawn template from d20 apocalypse which is pretty much the standard movie fast zombie (and if you want to make them shamblers, apply the move or attack only rule and reduce the challenge rating). That's the next book I'm going to read. I got pretty confused with the Zombie template in the Core Rulebook, how exactly do templates work? As for grapples, I will suggest two things; first, you want to learn the rules, because you are the GM and people expect that of you and because they pretty much clear up all the issues. Second, I would suggest that you treat natural attacks as unarmed for the purpose of dealing damage in a grapple, making enemies with natural attacks (most animals and zombies) very dangerous once they've pinned you down. Yep, that's why I'm trying to get solid on these grapple rules before we start. As for attacks of opportunity, you cannot make an unarmed attack of opportunity (unless you count as armed for some reason) and then the grab attack is almost always an unarmed melee attack (the exception being the ketch-all pole). Zombie claws count as armed, so I may take thier AoOs as grapples, right? Thanks for your help! |
| #9backstabbistNov 06, 2009 11:28:13 | Listed creature Slam, Claw, & Bite attacks are NaturalWeapon, thus count as Armed. Pistol Whip, we say by houserule if you are using it as a gun you dont get Pistol Whip.
And before we get to it, CMA and Brawl do not stack.... its a real frequent question
Yes, the board is really frickin buggy this week |
| #10seth_bNov 06, 2009 12:09:57 | hey guys. first time posting, but i've been reading the forums for a bit. not to derail the grappling discussion, but i came up with a rule that i can't seem to find anywhere and thought it might help in a zombie-type game. more experienced gms, feel free to shoot this idea down, but it seems like it would make sense when fighting zombies. a head shot rule. pcs declare that they are taking a head shot. which (i've decided as a gm) is a -4 penalty to the attack roll (they need to carefully aim), but provides a +2 on the damage roll (a bullet to the head should be more damaging than winging someone in the shoulder). i've started throwing zombies into my game and i'm giving them a pretty high body hp (30-40). shoot a zombie in the body all you like, he's not going down until a stray shot hits him in the head. but setting a separate, lower hp for the head, around 5 or 6. i think this creates more realistic traditional zombie combat. keep your distance. fire away. you'll probably miss a few times, but a well placed shot to the head would bring the zombie down. thoughts? |
| #11rustam1Nov 06, 2009 13:10:25 |
well, yes, that's one way and not too bad at that... another is to make the call shot to the head (-4 to-hit) an automatic critical with either max damage + rolled damage or double damage. ( I like to use half damage for normal shots ) |
| #12backstabbistNov 06, 2009 21:29:46 | Its not a bad rule, But the problem is when the players start taking Headshots at the armored live NPCs to avoid trying to beat the badguys AC from Vest. Shooting at the Merc Sgt is trying to hit Def25, but since 6 of that is Vest Equip Def... you are actually 2 pips better ToHit his head as Def19 & -4Callshot and get a damage reward for doing so. It really invalidates wearing armor greater than 3Def, cause your head is only Naked & -4size. And before we get into Helmets, a LegShot is bigger area than head and just as Not Armored as helmetless Its not a bad rule, but folks WILL exploit it |
| #13rustam1Nov 06, 2009 21:53:39 | ah, therein lays the problem of armor makes you harder to hit. first off, I don't subtract the +6 armor bonus from Merc Sgt. why you ask? because the mechanic of armor works as a deflection bonus, know what I mean? or think of it like being a natural armor bonus. anyway, it stops the called shots to get around body armor abuse. |
| #14backstabbistNov 06, 2009 22:03:51 | actually, I dont know what you mean No matter if your Boots are Kevlar, ceramic, or 12" Batleship Belted HRA, Vest dont cover your head either. In a locationless system like d20Modern RAW,
But you are right that |
| #15rustam1Nov 06, 2009 22:41:43 | yes! you did get it ... Chainmail Bikini ... outstanding! that's what I was trying for. hero Bill Dex 16 (+3) with 4 levels of strong (+3) puts on a tactical vest (+6) and ends up with a def of 21. [19 flatfooted, 16 touch] did I do that right? anyway, that's all fine and good until we add in the detail of location for hits. it's a question of granularity, right? |
| #16doctor_mcpirateNov 08, 2009 4:14:22 | I think the rule is balanced for what it is used for (busting ghoulds in the brain), but is too easy to exploit and will become overused. A headshot is all good and well to aim for, but then with MDT coming into play it becomes the way to go. Then if there are rules for headshots, why not arm shots, leg shots, hand shots, nut shots. Almost every shot in the game would become a called shot. Also, as Backstabbist pointed out, armour would suddenly become useless, as most armour would logically be negated. When you think about it, dealing enough damage to kill a zombie would logically represent a headshot if that's what kills your zombies. Also, with more body health than head health, zombies need to be targeted in the head, which seems odd. A shot to the chest isn't necessarily going to hit the chest, it could even hit the head (this is represented by high damage rolls). Nonetheless, having considered all this, it may work for your gaming group, so go bananas. On topic though; I understand that while a Slam attack or etc is an armed attack (while in the literal sense, unarmed), a grab attack isn't, so you provoke attacks of opportunity and cannot use a grab attack as an attack of opportunity if you have natural attacks. It may make sense to allow characters or creatures with combat martial arts to grab someone while counting as armed. It just makes sense to me this way, because martial arts training could allow you to be better at grabbing someone while as having fangs, a stinger or a powerful punch probably wouldn't. Doctor out |
| #17doctor_mcpirateNov 08, 2009 4:33:44 | As for Templates, you pretty much just have to take the basic creature and make the modifications listed in the template to the original creature. Not too difficult once you get used to it, but some can be a bit complicated to begin with. If you apply it to a human, for example, you should prolly stick with a level one xOrdinary with all 10s for stats and go from there to begin with. I really can't come up with a way of explaining templates at the moment, but I hope this helps anyway. Doctor out |
| #18jornerJan 04, 2010 17:22:11 | In regards to a Zombiegeddon campaign, check the following thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... Jim |