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Brass Nuckle Help!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
xelementalxwarriorx
May 17, 2008 3:32:37 I have always used Brass Nuckles for one of my charactors and i have always used them the way that other GM's have used them before me. So when i read the rules in the core book i mite have gotten confused and misread. It says that brass nuckels make the damage leathal when you hit with them and also increases the "Base Damage" by +1. I have been useing that as the base damage die, example a 1d4 getting poped to a 1d6. However my friend brought up a point that it might just at +1 damage. Example being 1d4+1

Anyone know how it really goes? I have played with brass nuckels before in real life... so i can see either way...
#2
tema69
May 17, 2008 4:05:16 If it says by +1, then it is 1d4 (or whatever) +1. Otherwise it would say increase the die by one step (1d4 -> 1d6, and so forth).
#3
nemafow
May 17, 2008 6:05:46 I think your getting a little confused:

Normal unarmed attack = d3 non lethal damage
Brass knuckles without the brawl feat = d3 lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the brawl feat = d3+1 lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat = d4 damage lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat, and brawl feat = d4+1 lethal damage

All of these do indeed add strength to their damage as well.

Edit: Spelling
#4
tema69
May 17, 2008 8:09:54 You're right. My mistake.
#5
psininja
May 17, 2008 8:26:02 Wouldn't it go like this

Normal unarmed attack = d3 non lethal damage
Brass knuckles without the brawl feat = d3 lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the brawl feat = d6+1 lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat = d4 lethal damage
Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat, and brawl feat = d6+1 lethal damage
#6
tema69
May 17, 2008 8:28:17 It actually just says that if you have the Brawl feat, then you deal +1 damage. Whether it's 1d6+1 or 1d3+1, I guess it's up to the GM.
#7
backstabbist
May 17, 2008 12:28:24
Brass Knuckles
These pieces of molded metal fit over the outside of a character’s fingers and allow him or her to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike instead of nonlethal damage. A strike with brass knuckles is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
When used by a character with the Brawl feat, brass knuckles increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage.

The knuckles only do 2 things:
They make Unarmed attacks Lethal damage (so it adds up unlike Non-lethal)
They grant feated Brawl a +1 Damage

Brawl
Benefit: When making an unarmed attack, the character receives a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, and the character deals nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + his or her Strength modifier.
Normal: Unarmed attacks normally deal nonlethal damage equal to 1d3 + Strength modifier

Brawl only grants a +1 Tohit and Brawl Attacks are 1d6.
It doesnt "up a die size", if it did, that would be Up 2 Die Sizes. But it dont.

Combat Martial Arts
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks.
Normal: Without this feat, a character deals only 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Unarmed attacks normally provoke attacks of opportunity, and unarmed combatants cannot normally make attacks of opportunity

CMA is about being considered armed as to not provoke AoO, and to threaten. CMA attacks are 1d4, choice of lethal or not, and dont provoke AoO. CMA is not Brawling, which is an offensive fight style (big damage) as contrasted to CMA defensive fight style (dont provoke).

Mook: 1d3 nonlethal, provokes
Knuckles: 1d3 Lethal (adds up), provokes
Brawl: +1 ToHit, 1d6 nonlethal, provokes
KnuckleBrawler: +1 ToHit, 1d6+1 lethal, provokes
CMA: 1d4 choice of lethal, "armed" (threatens/no provoke)
KnuckleCMA: CMA punch is considered Armed, Knuckles are for Unarmed Attacks
BrawlingCMA: One or the other, not both
#8
nemafow
May 17, 2008 19:01:58 I swear I remember reading a while ago that although Brawl ups the non lethal damage to 1d6+1, someone had already pointed out that this didn't carry over to lethal damage (when used with brass knuckles or the like).

I may have to find this post again.
#9
backstabbist
May 17, 2008 19:32:24 Most likely you are thinking of the countless times we've said Brawl benefits dont apply to the "armed" CMA (which most choose as Lethal)

This also holds with the Martial Artist AdC.
As your Living Weapon damage die size increases, you dont get to barroom Brawl while using SpittingSerpent or OneEyedLocust KungFu. The MA gets to take a bunch of iterative 1d8 "armed" attacks without spilling his MaiTai or the Margarita for his date in his other hand.

Now, when they come up with LiquoredUpEx-Marine kungfu, then they'd have something worth watching. A lot more fun then LazyMushroom or 3SleepingBabies kungfu.
#10
nemafow
May 17, 2008 20:38:24 Ah yeah your probably right, it does ring a bell. Oh my mistake :P

Getting very quiet around these boards these days huh..
#11
nodaisho
May 18, 2008 0:27:26 I think that was in a bullet points. Honestly, I think that ruling would be absolutely stupid, but that is what the guy doing bullet points said, and those columns count as RAW, which is something I have heard complaints about in the CharOp boards.
#12
brokenoakleys
May 18, 2008 10:06:14 I agree with backstabbist that someone with both brawl and CMA must choose between the two when fighting, they cannot combine the benefits of the two feats.

Allowing the benefits of the two feats would be unbalancing: someone could take brawl, imp. brawl, CMA, Imp. CMA and streetfighting have +2 to hit, no AO's, and 2d12 lethal damage (1d8 and 1d4) with a crit of 19-20 as early as 4th level.

However, I've got to agree with nemaflow and Tema69 on brass knuckle damage: a character with both brawl and CMA who is using brass knuckles should get +1 damage whether using brawl or CMA.

Rule says "When used by character with brawl feat..." not someone using the brawl feat. Thus damage should be:

CMA 1D4+1
BRAWL 16+1

This would give slight edge to CMA folks with brawl but no so much to unbalance the game.
#13
backstabbist
May 18, 2008 12:52:06 I think we are entering an area that requires examining the effect of having a tool in the hands of a MartialArtist.

My initial take was a basic idea that regardless of the tool, damage would be an extension of the kungfu ability: Simply use the size of the tool to determine the increase in damage: Tiny +1 (knuckles), Sm +2 (brick), med +3 (coffemaker), Large +4 (chair)

I'm thinking along the lines of Arnie bustin a guy up bad with a chair vs JackieChan doing one of his ChairFights that are more about extending his fighting style than being armed with a implement.

CMA is already a pretty good Feat. If we allow even more benefits to it it could be overpowered. I would like to leave CMA as is in regard to not getting BrassKnuckle bonus damage for balance issues.

But I would like to see MA get to have objects in its styles that can enhance damage by a +1 to +3 or so. I cant decide off hand if it should be 2 or 3 named objects that are in the style or generic JackieChan use.
#14
tema69
May 18, 2008 12:58:53 That seems like a good idea you have there.
#15
nodaisho
May 18, 2008 18:09:33 You are thinking sort of a... is it drunken master when they use the everyday objects? I know there is a term for that style. I would say that there should either be one or two feats, depending on how powerful it is and how it works. I will put down some ideas later, I can't get them straight right now.
#16
backstabbist
May 19, 2008 15:15:03 I wonder if we can make a Feat list of a guys proper name?
JackieChan
Improved JackieChan
Two JackieChan Fighting
Greater JackieChan
#17
tema69
May 19, 2008 16:06:24
Two JackieChan Fighting

For some reason I'm imagining some guy dual wielding JackieChans... Damn, I wish I was good at photoshop.
#18
nodaisho
May 19, 2008 16:21:06 The drawback would be that you are forced to make reflex saves to catch falling valuable objects, if you fail you are dazed for one round due to your failure.

Does someone remember that type of feat in D+D? I think I do, but I could be wrong, might be in one of the D20 modern third party books for martial arts, but I think it is D+D, since someone had the idea of having a bag of holding full of rarer but very useful objects for use with it.
#19
brokenoakleys
May 19, 2008 18:07:17 Tema69: If you are wielding Jackie Chan's, do they get attacks too? 'For the hit with Jackie Chan, you do 1d8 bludgeoning. For the hit BY Jackie Chan, you do 1d6...'
#20
tema69
May 19, 2008 18:18:19
Tema69: If you are wielding Jackie Chan's, do they get attacks too? 'For the hit with Jackie Chan, you do 1d8 bludgeoning. For the hit BY Jackie Chan, you do 1d6...'

...+30 damage. Make a Will save DC45 or be instantly knocked down in an action-movie-kinda-way.
Note: This may include falling through a window, breaking a table, or something otherwise dramatic.

But of course. Imagine two JackieChan's WunTsun'ing simultaneously while being used to slap the hell out of people themselves.
#21
backstabbist
May 19, 2008 20:36:05 Dang,
looks like I broke another thread....
TS is gonna be peeved
#22
tema69
May 20, 2008 5:21:55 Every thread stabbist posts on should automatically move to the Off-Topic Discussion forum.
Joking aside. *hrem*
#23
johannixx
May 20, 2008 9:31:53 Jackie's getting kind of old and rotund, so I'd suggest using Jet Li as an off-hand weapon (he's 'Light', right?).
#24
backstabbist
May 20, 2008 10:15:03 Meanwhile, back at the Titanium / CarbonFibre Knuckles discussion....

Anyone else have ideas on Knuckles/Objects for "Unarmed" attacks visavis Mook/Brawler/CMA/MA ?
#25
johannixx
May 20, 2008 22:10:39 You could make the argument that CMA represents all kinds of strikes, joint locks, etc, and the brass knucks just don't come into play often enough to matter, while Brawl is down-and-dirty street fighting that centers around punches, thus the knucks are more useful.

I do agree that the +1 damage applies when used with CMA if you also have the Brawl feat, since that's what the description says. Think of it as a combination JiuJutsu/striker in modern MMA: you can occaisionally get a punch in, and the knucks help when you do, but you don't rely on pure punching to fight unarmed.
#26
backstabbist
May 15, 2009 15:03:37 Could you imaging if FabNat started manufacturing JackieChans in 5.7 ?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xelementalxwarriorx May 17, 2008 3:32:37	I have always used Brass Nuckles for one of my charactors and i have always used them the way that other GM's have used them before me. So when i read the rules in the core book i mite have gotten confused and misread. It says that brass nuckels make the damage leathal when you hit with them and also increases the "Base Damage" by +1. I have been useing that as the base damage die, example a 1d4 getting poped to a 1d6. However my friend brought up a point that it might just at +1 damage. Example being 1d4+1 Anyone know how it really goes? I have played with brass nuckels before in real life... so i can see either way...
#2 tema69 May 17, 2008 4:05:16	If it says by +1, then it is 1d4 (or whatever) +1. Otherwise it would say increase the die by one step (1d4 -> 1d6, and so forth).
#3 nemafow May 17, 2008 6:05:46	I think your getting a little confused: Normal unarmed attack = d3 non lethal damage Brass knuckles without the brawl feat = d3 lethal damage Brass knuckles with the brawl feat = d3+1 lethal damage Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat = d4 damage lethal damage Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat, and brawl feat = d4+1 lethal damage All of these do indeed add strength to their damage as well. Edit: Spelling
#4 tema69 May 17, 2008 8:09:54	You're right. My mistake.
#5 psininja May 17, 2008 8:26:02	Wouldn't it go like this Normal unarmed attack = d3 non lethal damage Brass knuckles without the brawl feat = d3 lethal damage Brass knuckles with the brawl feat = d6+1 lethal damage Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat = d4 lethal damage Brass knuckles with the combat martial arts feat, and brawl feat = d6+1 lethal damage
#6 tema69 May 17, 2008 8:28:17	It actually just says that if you have the Brawl feat, then you deal +1 damage. Whether it's 1d6+1 or 1d3+1, I guess it's up to the GM.
#7 backstabbist May 17, 2008 12:28:24	Brass Knuckles These pieces of molded metal fit over the outside of a character’s fingers and allow him or her to deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike instead of nonlethal damage. A strike with brass knuckles is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. When used by a character with the Brawl feat, brass knuckles increase the base damage dealt by an unarmed strike by +1 and turn the damage into lethal damage. The knuckles only do 2 things: They make Unarmed attacks Lethal damage (so it adds up unlike Non-lethal) They grant feated Brawl a +1 Damage Brawl Benefit: When making an unarmed attack, the character receives a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, and the character deals nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + his or her Strength modifier. Normal: Unarmed attacks normally deal nonlethal damage equal to 1d3 + Strength modifier Brawl only grants a +1 Tohit and Brawl Attacks are 1d6. It doesnt "up a die size", if it did, that would be Up 2 Die Sizes. But it dont. Combat Martial Arts Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks. Normal: Without this feat, a character deals only 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Unarmed attacks normally provoke attacks of opportunity, and unarmed combatants cannot normally make attacks of opportunity CMA is about being considered armed as to not provoke AoO, and to threaten. CMA attacks are 1d4, choice of lethal or not, and dont provoke AoO. CMA is not Brawling, which is an offensive fight style (big damage) as contrasted to CMA defensive fight style (dont provoke). Mook: 1d3 nonlethal, provokes Knuckles: 1d3 Lethal (adds up), provokes Brawl: +1 ToHit, 1d6 nonlethal, provokes KnuckleBrawler: +1 ToHit, 1d6+1 lethal, provokes CMA: 1d4 choice of lethal, "armed" (threatens/no provoke) KnuckleCMA: CMA punch is considered Armed, Knuckles are for Unarmed Attacks BrawlingCMA: One or the other, not both
#8 nemafow May 17, 2008 19:01:58	I swear I remember reading a while ago that although Brawl ups the non lethal damage to 1d6+1, someone had already pointed out that this didn't carry over to lethal damage (when used with brass knuckles or the like). I may have to find this post again.
#9 backstabbist May 17, 2008 19:32:24	Most likely you are thinking of the countless times we've said Brawl benefits dont apply to the "armed" CMA (which most choose as Lethal) This also holds with the Martial Artist AdC. As your Living Weapon damage die size increases, you dont get to barroom Brawl while using SpittingSerpent or OneEyedLocust KungFu. The MA gets to take a bunch of iterative 1d8 "armed" attacks without spilling his MaiTai or the Margarita for his date in his other hand. Now, when they come up with LiquoredUpEx-Marine kungfu, then they'd have something worth watching. A lot more fun then LazyMushroom or 3SleepingBabies kungfu.
#10 nemafow May 17, 2008 20:38:24	Ah yeah your probably right, it does ring a bell. Oh my mistake :P Getting very quiet around these boards these days huh..
#11 nodaisho May 18, 2008 0:27:26	I think that was in a bullet points. Honestly, I think that ruling would be absolutely stupid, but that is what the guy doing bullet points said, and those columns count as RAW, which is something I have heard complaints about in the CharOp boards.
#12 brokenoakleys May 18, 2008 10:06:14	I agree with backstabbist that someone with both brawl and CMA must choose between the two when fighting, they cannot combine the benefits of the two feats. Allowing the benefits of the two feats would be unbalancing: someone could take brawl, imp. brawl, CMA, Imp. CMA and streetfighting have +2 to hit, no AO's, and 2d12 lethal damage (1d8 and 1d4) with a crit of 19-20 as early as 4th level. However, I've got to agree with nemaflow and Tema69 on brass knuckle damage: a character with both brawl and CMA who is using brass knuckles should get +1 damage whether using brawl or CMA. Rule says "When used by character with brawl feat..." not someone using the brawl feat. Thus damage should be: CMA 1D4+1 BRAWL 16+1 This would give slight edge to CMA folks with brawl but no so much to unbalance the game.
#13 backstabbist May 18, 2008 12:52:06	I think we are entering an area that requires examining the effect of having a tool in the hands of a MartialArtist. My initial take was a basic idea that regardless of the tool, damage would be an extension of the kungfu ability: Simply use the size of the tool to determine the increase in damage: Tiny +1 (knuckles), Sm +2 (brick), med +3 (coffemaker), Large +4 (chair) I'm thinking along the lines of Arnie bustin a guy up bad with a chair vs JackieChan doing one of his ChairFights that are more about extending his fighting style than being armed with a implement. CMA is already a pretty good Feat. If we allow even more benefits to it it could be overpowered. I would like to leave CMA as is in regard to not getting BrassKnuckle bonus damage for balance issues. But I would like to see MA get to have objects in its styles that can enhance damage by a +1 to +3 or so. I cant decide off hand if it should be 2 or 3 named objects that are in the style or generic JackieChan use.
#14 tema69 May 18, 2008 12:58:53	That seems like a good idea you have there.
#15 nodaisho May 18, 2008 18:09:33	You are thinking sort of a... is it drunken master when they use the everyday objects? I know there is a term for that style. I would say that there should either be one or two feats, depending on how powerful it is and how it works. I will put down some ideas later, I can't get them straight right now.
#16 backstabbist May 19, 2008 15:15:03	I wonder if we can make a Feat list of a guys proper name? JackieChan Improved JackieChan Two JackieChan Fighting Greater JackieChan
#17 tema69 May 19, 2008 16:06:24	Two JackieChan Fighting For some reason I'm imagining some guy dual wielding JackieChans... Damn, I wish I was good at photoshop.
#18 nodaisho May 19, 2008 16:21:06	The drawback would be that you are forced to make reflex saves to catch falling valuable objects, if you fail you are dazed for one round due to your failure. Does someone remember that type of feat in D+D? I think I do, but I could be wrong, might be in one of the D20 modern third party books for martial arts, but I think it is D+D, since someone had the idea of having a bag of holding full of rarer but very useful objects for use with it.
#19 brokenoakleys May 19, 2008 18:07:17	Tema69: If you are wielding Jackie Chan's, do they get attacks too? 'For the hit with Jackie Chan, you do 1d8 bludgeoning. For the hit BY Jackie Chan, you do 1d6...'
#20 tema69 May 19, 2008 18:18:19	Tema69: If you are wielding Jackie Chan's, do they get attacks too? 'For the hit with Jackie Chan, you do 1d8 bludgeoning. For the hit BY Jackie Chan, you do 1d6...' ...+30 damage. Make a Will save DC45 or be instantly knocked down in an action-movie-kinda-way. Note: This may include falling through a window, breaking a table, or something otherwise dramatic. But of course. Imagine two JackieChan's WunTsun'ing simultaneously while being used to slap the hell out of people themselves.
#21 backstabbist May 19, 2008 20:36:05	Dang, looks like I broke another thread.... TS is gonna be peeved
#22 tema69 May 20, 2008 5:21:55	Every thread stabbist posts on should automatically move to the Off-Topic Discussion forum. Joking aside. hrem
#23 johannixx May 20, 2008 9:31:53	Jackie's getting kind of old and rotund, so I'd suggest using Jet Li as an off-hand weapon (he's 'Light', right?).
#24 backstabbist May 20, 2008 10:15:03	Meanwhile, back at the Titanium / CarbonFibre Knuckles discussion.... Anyone else have ideas on Knuckles/Objects for "Unarmed" attacks visavis Mook/Brawler/CMA/MA ?
#25 johannixx May 20, 2008 22:10:39	You could make the argument that CMA represents all kinds of strikes, joint locks, etc, and the brass knucks just don't come into play often enough to matter, while Brawl is down-and-dirty street fighting that centers around punches, thus the knucks are more useful. I do agree that the +1 damage applies when used with CMA if you also have the Brawl feat, since that's what the description says. Think of it as a combination JiuJutsu/striker in modern MMA: you can occaisionally get a punch in, and the knucks help when you do, but you don't rely on pure punching to fight unarmed.
#26 backstabbist May 15, 2009 15:03:37	Could you imaging if FabNat started manufacturing JackieChans in 5.7 ?