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| #1thebeowulfJul 05, 2008 4:01:32 | Can someone post the caliber damage thread from awhile back? I really need it for an upcoming game. For clarification I remember 9mm = 2d6, .357/.45 = 2d6+1, 5.7mm = 2d4+1 but that's all I can remember. Much appreciated. |
| #2tema69Jul 05, 2008 8:00:19 | Here you go, mate: 2d3: .25 ACP 2d4: .22 LR, 5.45x25mm, .32 ACP, 3.4mm flechette 2d4+1: .38 S&W, .380 ACP, 9x18mm PM, .38 Long Colt, 9x19mm (subsonic loading), .38 Special, .22 WMR, 9x18mm PMM, 5.7x28mm FN, 4.6mm HK, 7.62x25mm Tokarev 2d6: .38 Super, 9x19mm, .22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .338 nova, 4.35mm flechette 2d6+1: .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 AE, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30 Carbine/7.62x33mm, 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czech loading), .300 Whisper (subsonic loading) 2d8: .45 Long Colt +p, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .50 AE, .440 CorBon, .50 Alexander, .458 Socom, 5.45x39mm/.21 Russian, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 20ga, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO, .44 AutoMag, .300 Whisper, 4.7mm caseless, 12mm, 10.7mm 2d8+1: 7.62x39mm M43/.30 Russian, .30-30, .243 Win, 6.8mm SPC, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .510 Whisper (subsonic loading), 14mm caseless 2d8+d6: .803 gyro 2d10: .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, 7.92x57mm Mauser, .300 Win Mag, 12ga, .45-70 Gov't, .500 magnum, 8mm caseless 2d10+1: .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin Magnum, .45-70 +p, 12 ga 3" Magnum 2d12: .338 Lapua, .375 H&H Magnum, 10ga, 12ga 3-1/2" Magnum, .510 Whisper 2d12+1: .458 Win Mag, .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys, .600 Nitro Express, .666 magnum 2d12+2: 8ga 2d12+3: .700 Nitro Express 2d12+4: .800 Nitro Express 2d20: 12.7x109mm Soviet, .50 BMG/12.7x99mm 2d20+2: 22.4mm 2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet |
| #3thebeowulfJul 07, 2008 21:18:36 | Awesome, thanks. Also, for anyone hanging around, is .308 the same as 7.62 NATO? |
| #4tema69Jul 08, 2008 9:17:34 | Np. It's just like the american .223 = 5.56 NATO. I think there are small differences, but AFAIK, they are compatible. In game terms, I wouldn't worry about the difference. |
| #5akodoJul 08, 2008 23:41:57 | here's what I use 1d6 = 25acp (and equvalents, same with all the below) 1d8 = 32acp 1d10 = 380 acp 1d12 = 38 speical 2d6 = 9x19mm (regular 9mm) 2d6+1 = 40 S&W, 357 sig 2d6+2 = 45 acp 2d8 = 357 magnum 2d8+1 = 41 magnum, 10mm 2d8+2 = 44 magnum, 45 super Rifles 3d6 = 7.62x39 and 30-30 2d10 = 5.56 NATO aka 223, 5.45x39 2d12 = 220swift 22-250, etc 3d8 = "true rifle" cartridges like 308 aka 7.62 NATO, 30-06, 7mm mauser, 8mm mauser, basically any of the world war 1 and 2 rifle catridges 3d8+1 = midrange magnums, 7mm remington mag, 264 magnum, 257 weatherby, etc 3d10 = 300 magnums, 300 winmag, 300 H&H mag, 300 WSM 3d12 = 300 ultra magnums (300 pegasus, 300-378 weatherb, 300 RUM) |
| #6tema69Jul 09, 2008 3:19:36 | We use (in our WW2 setting): 3d4: .22, .32, .38/200, etc... 3d6: 9x19mm, 7.62x25mm 3d8: .45, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .30 Carbine, 7.63x25mm, .455 , .280 (the british experimental cartridge). 3d10: .30-06, 7.92x57mm, .303, 7.62x54mm. 6d4: 20 Gauge. 6d6: .50 BMG, 12 Gauge, 12.7x108mm. 6d8: 10 Gauge. 7d6: 14.5x114mm, .55 (as used in the Boys AntiTank rifle). It should be noted that we differentiate between the damage by using CyberDave's Recoil system, the Penetration System as well as Armour=Damage Reduction. Also, range vary wildly between weapons of the same damage group. For example, a .45 ACP might seem overpowered compared to the 9x19mm Parabellum, but the Recoil is one higher, and the Penetration is one worse. |
| #7nadakaJul 09, 2008 16:19:17 | Akodo: I see a few minor irregularities with your values. 1: The 357 SIG has 25-50% higher KE than the 45 ACP and in some cases slightly higher than the 357 magnum. Yet it is rated significantly lower than either. 2: The 45 acp is rated higher than the .40 S&W despite having nearly identical KE. Though this is not nearly as significant as the first. 3: 2d6+2 has the same average damage as 2d8, but a higher minimum damage. This effectively makes it more effective for PC's over the course of a campaign due to more reliable damage. |
| #8kjakanJul 10, 2008 18:58:17 | Not wanting to claim any particular level of expertise as far as ballistic efficiency goes, but it strikes me as unnecessarily detailed. Looking at different damage dice values for 14.5 vs 12.7 is silly when a hit from either of them should have the exacts same effect on any human being: death. As it is I'm perfectly satisfied with the 2d6* through 2d12 damage values for the kind of weapons used to shoot at the things that matter in the game: the player characters. Damage typically falls in to four categories: - A complete miss (the attack roll failed). - A grazing hit or narrow escape (minor hp damage). - A flesh wound or near death experience (massive damage check passed). - An incapacitating hit or fatal wound (massive damage check failed or hp dropped to less than 0). Sure, there are situations where the effectiveness of larger guns come into play, such as when working out damage against objects such as vehicles or structures. But why mess up a perfectly smooth non-realistic system for the sake of... well, mere realism? -K *) 2d4 damage firearms are simply never used. Not by the PCs at least. |
| #9tema69Jul 11, 2008 3:13:20 | Well, perhaps someone are looking for a bit more realism, without needing to rewrite the rules completely. I have created a system based on d20 Modern which IMHO is pretty realistic without bogging down everything by numbers and complicated calculations. Pretty much like this: You get shot by a rifle, you go down. You get shot by a pistol, you might live on. You get shot by a .45ACP, you're more hurt than from a standard pistol calibre. |
| #10akodoJul 12, 2008 18:07:09 | Akodo: I see a few minor irregularities with your values. You have to be able to seperate the wheat from the chaffe. You also ahve to be able to compare apples to apples Realize that there is a broad array of types of ammo. For example there is a wide variety of 45acp loads intended for target shooting, which are often just over 300 ft/lbs of muzzle energy, while most standard pressure 'self defense' type loads are in the low 400s. Even in the self defense loads, there are many 'tactical' 'home defense' and 'low recoil' rounds designed for as the name implies, lower recoil and less muzzle flash. What you really need to do is look at the top 5 full power standard pressure loads and you will find most are just a little under 450. Now, add to this that 45+P loadings are what the vast majority of serious users would choose. Modern firearms, be it Glock, H&K, Smith and Wesson, Springfield XD, the frame is all the same. Standard 45acp specs call for low pressure, and it has been offically lowered at least twice, the idea being that SAAMI needs to insure that Great Grandpa's old colt 1911 45 he bought from the army as he mustered out of World War One can safely handle the pressures of the round. The 45 acp standard pressure is only 21,000, with +P bringing it up to 23,500. Now compare that to 9x19mm at 35,000 and 38,000 for +P, 40 SW has 35,000 as well, and no +P catagory, and 357 sig goes all the way to 40,000 with no +P catagory. Now, there are 9mm +p+ rounds that exceed 38,000, who actually creep up to the 40,000 of 357 sig, but that is only 2000 extra pressure. Some 45acps going at +p+ get to 25,000-28,000, some guys use ++P++ designation for 28,500 to 30,000 all runnable in a standard 45 acp of modern reputable manufacture (i.e. not a brand new hi-point and not a 60 year old gun) but wear is increased. You can swap in some new springs and add some barrel support to convert it to 45 super, allowing loads running at 40,000 psi, although normally super is around 35,000. When 46 Rowland came about which set the bar at 40,000, the 45 super guys cranked the pressures and found theirs worked just fine at 40,000 too, but still suggest 35,000 simply due to gun life. Note about presure, it isn't all about amount of gunpowder, it is about space and bullet weight. If you take a loaded cartridge and tap the bullet with a hammer to seat it deeper in the case, PV=NRT, you just made a high pressure load. Put the same charge of gunpowder in a brass case, and seat a heavier bullet on top, it takes more force to get that heavier bullet moving, you are automatically going to have greater pressures. This is why in loading manuals, the 125 grain bullet will call for 18 grains of gunpowder brand Z, but the 135 grain bullet will call for 17 grains of the same powder. Basically I am saying you got to know what to look at. Check out 45+P, it is the standard loading any serious shooter would use (if not going to +P+) so it is the valid. Also realize that the 357 magnum was originally placed on large frames. These frames were heavier, so they absorbed more recoil. But large frames were harder to holster carry all day long, so most folks switched to medium frames, the original idea being to shoot 38 specials for practice and put in 357 ammo for duty, so the wear on the lighter frame would be much less. Of course, lighter frame meant those 357 magnum rounds would really kick. (Also back then most ranges were outdoors and hearing protection wasn't used, or it was just sticking empty cases in your ears, or cotton balls, the 357 had a LOT more noise. Often those shooters were smart enough to cotton ball, the 38 special guys hated the extra noise as they often didn't have ear protection along, would stick empty cases in their ears when the 357 mag guys were on the line) Attitudes changed. More people were wearing quiality hearing protection, and people decided it was best to practice as close to 'real' as possible, this meant using the same ammo as they carried when on patrol. This lead to two changes. Most ammo manufactures toned down the 357 magnum 'standard load' (and also put on a lighter bullet) and most gun makers introduced slightly heavier, stronger medium frame. For smith and Wesson, they went from the K frame of the Model 19 and Model 66 (which was 19 except stainless steel, they originally were going to call it 69, but passed because of the sexual impliations) to the Model 586 and 686 (blued, and stainless, respectively) So, most folks call it the 'old standard' and 'new standard' New standard 357 ammo still kicked like the dickens, plus people weren't really exposed to and used to the massive recoil possible with 454 casul and similar newcomers just being developed by backyard tinkerers. So, 'tactical' 'reduced recoil' 'mid level' 'medium' and 'mild' ammo was developed. Basically those are meaningless terms that each ammo maker put on their box. In my experience, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being most potent, 'old standard' was 10 new standard would be 8-9, 357 tactical would be 6-7 '357 medium' would be 5 38 special +P+ would be 3 38 special +P would be 2, regular 38 specials would be 1, and 'cowboy 38 specials (often loaded partially with malt-o-meal or corn starch) would be 0.5 Most places dropped their medium/mild and stepped up just a little to make a tactical that was still shy of 'new standard' levels. I know remington used to have an economy 'medium velocity' but they dropped it, at the same time their 'premiere' defense round the golden saber in 357 mag was an unmarked 'medium'. Most lines dropped the '5' rating medium and went for a 6 or 7 'tactical'. That level 6-7 tactical stuff what 357 sig compares itself to. What it says to the experts is 'if you can shoot full power we got nothing to offer you' What it says to the novice is 'if full power 357 mag is too much, we can match your medium power stuff and hold more rounds' okay, lets grab some real world examples. Remington and Federal and Winchester all have 357 SIG with muzzle energies of 507 or 506 across MULTIPLE loadings. I think 7 in all. Now, lets take a look at 45 acp, glancing at Federal, throwing out the target stuff, you are left with two loads at 375ish, one at 410, and one at 475, with Remington it is 4 loads between 391 and 423, winchester has two, one at 396 one at 411. +p 45 acp, using the famed Federal hydra-shock gets 524, winchester doesn't list any, and Remington gives you Golden Saber +P at 534. This is what anyone with a modern 45acp handgun and more than 3 braincells would be using. There is a reason these two are the 'gold standard'. Now, lets look at 357 magnum, in personal defense weights (not hunting which is often much higher weight and energy) Federal has the basic 125 jhp at 575, and the 130 hydrashock at 574, Remington has their two basic 125 jhp at 583 plus a specialty 'leadless' 125 loads at 583 and their 'golden saber' at 410, which is identical to their now gone 'medium' with a more expensive bullet (hence it is isn't a 'new standard' loading, no serious combat shooter would chose it, it is a 'mild') 357 sig = 507 across the board 45 acp regular = 400 self defense, 350 target, but no one is going to use it 45 acp +P, the real comparison = 530 357 magnum 'new standard' = 580 (old standard would have been in the low 600s, some hunting loads go as high as 700) So, I stand by my accertation once you realize the 357 magnum ammo the sig is being compared to is 'tactical' and 'mild' and once you sort out the economy ammo & target ammo, and compare real world choices to eachother. 2: The 45 acp is rated higher than the .40 S&W despite having nearly identical KE. Though this is not nearly as significant as the first. there is no 40+p (well, it's called the 10mm mild loads, but whatever) the real comparison between a guy who gets the Springfield XD in 45 acp or the Springfield XD in 40S&W is going to be comparing straight 40SW to 45acp+P So you are comparing, selecting smartly, 489, 499, 500, and 496 in the 40SW field, compared to the 45+p's 530, plus see below 3: 2d6+2 has the same average damage as 2d8, but a higher minimum damage. This effectively makes it more effective for PC's over the course of a campaign due to more reliable damage. All else being equal, two rounds both with, say, exactly 500 ft/lbs of ME, one that is .30 in diameter one that is .50 diameter, the .50 is going to do more damage simply from leaving an inital bigger hole, and even if (or especially if) there is 'bullet failure' (i.e. hollowpoint does not expand due to fluke, poor design, insufficent velocity, bone glance, getting the nose fulled with clothing fibers, windshield glass, sheetrock dust, etc) That's comparing them with each using the most optimal bullet design. Compare them using two different 'full metal jacket' nonexpanding rounds, and the bigger one wins hands down no questions asked. The whole point of hollowpoints is that they expand, to become bigger than they start So the bigger one is always going to have a very slight benifit. This is why I said the 495-500 of the 40SW is equal to the 507 of the 357 sig, especially as the 357 sig is a smaller projectile, but the 495-500 40SW is NOT equal to the 45+p which is at 530 AND is slightly bigger to boot. For the same reason I had the 357 magnum at 580 get a bigger damage spread allowing for both more and less damage than the slightly less ME but much bigger 45acp +P |
| #11akodoJul 12, 2008 18:14:59 | Not wanting to claim any particular level of expertise as far as ballistic efficiency goes, but it strikes me as unnecessarily detailed. There are two problems I see with that. All it does is drive people to choose the highest capacity weapon. The choice of what to pick is much different if you compare a 2d6 weapon with 15 shots to a 2d6+2 with 8 shots, or maybe split the difference with a 2d6+1 with 12 shots. second, there is a ton of evidence that even in the 'serious pistol calibers' there is a significant difference between what a 9x19mm handgun can do and what a 45acp can do against a determined foe. but then, there is a drastic difference between what either handgun can do and what a rifle can do |
| #12nadakaJul 13, 2008 1:10:36 | I don't think you and I are looking at it the same way. The standard load of any weapon should be its factory default. 45+p is not standard 45, and the standard 45 rules should not assume +p. Especially when there is a very easy and effective rule system that allows for the creation of +p ammunition of any kind. Its called mastercraft +1 to damage. |
| #13akodoJul 13, 2008 1:51:33 | Standard load of any ammo should be what a character would walk into a gunstore and buy for his gun. Except for the crappiest cheapest guns, every 45acp and 9x19 chambered handgun rolling off the assembly line is rated for 45+p. Heck, step to a country other than the USA, and they wouldn't bother stamping +P on the box. It is just a SAAMI designation, which is a group of US compaines who get together and set standards. It's like saying a doctor who graduated from an Australian school isn't a doctor because he isn't American Medical Association certified. Heck, when Glock, Beretta, and Sig all first started going after the US handgun market, the manuals said nothing about +P, so people started calling in asking if the use would void the warranty. These companies first response was 'what's that?' and after they looked into it, they came back with the answer 'heck, all the 9mm and 45apc ammo in our country is loaded to basically +P pressures, if some guy has a 70 year old gun, it is his responsibility to make sure it is strong enough to use modern ammo, not the other way around! Military 9mm ammo is loaded to what would be in the civilan world +P standard, but it is not specially marked +P, military 45apc ammo same thing, it is loaded to +P pressures, but is not specifically marked that. Low powered target ammo outsells any other loading type by a huge margin, but as far as 'self defense' ammo, +P ammo outsells 'regular' by a huge margin. So really, stuff that here in america gets a +P rating IS the standard stuff. Here's another thing to consider. Lets say the sig gains some popularity, enough so companies like Blazer and Magtech start making inexpensive target ammo for it...ammo that has a fair amount less energy. When all sigs stop being 507 ft/lbs of energy, and you have a ton of practice stuff generating just 350 ft/lbs, you going to adjust down the damage of the 357SIG because maybe sometimes the character is careless and grabs target ammo? Or are you going to assume the character is going to buy and use serious ammo in combat? What about 'hunting loads' in 357 magnum, they generate a lot more energy than the self defense loads, simply because they use a lot heavier bullets for deeper penetration? But they are just as 'standard' as self defense loads. I am going to assume that any character buying a firearm for self defense is going to go to the gunstore and get the best ammo that can safely work in his gun. Regarding simply using mastercraft. If 45+P is mastercraft, what is 45+p+ or 45 ++p++? Similarly, if there is no way to get higher pressures (ala the 357 sig) then are you going to bar that one from mastercraft? Besides, mastercraft should be just that, mastercraft. It should be ammo that someone put extra care into creating to be especially good. +P isn't mastercraft, it is simply changing the settings on some big ammo making machine so it sticks in 21 grains of gunpowder rather than 19 grains. It's like calling a Ford Taurus with a V8 a 'mastercraft' simply because originally the Ford Taurus was availble with just a V6. Otherwise, I'd say simply introduce 45+p ammo and every gun in the game listed as 45 auto, convert that to 45 +P, except if you have some 50 year old world war 2 era colts sitting around. As it is, most of those could handle 45+ps too, they'd just wear a lot faster. Heck, you could knock 45 auto down to 2d6+1 if you wanted, and then let the characters buy "mastercraft ammo" that gave +1 damage for cheaper than the 357sig 'regular' ammo, and that there is no possibility for 'mastercraft' 357sig ammo. Everyone with a 45 auto would then be doing 2d6+2 damage anyay. |
| #14akodoJul 13, 2008 1:53:27 | p.s. If I was doing mastercraft ammo, I'd give it +1 to hit, and call it a handload tailored to that firearm by a handloader, that is both realistic and more similar to what 'mastercraft' is intended to mean. heck, I didn't know when I asked McDonalds to 'Supersize' my french fries they were giving me 'mastercraft' fries, here I thought I was just getting more fries. |
| #15kjakanJul 14, 2008 13:08:07 | There are two problems I see with that. All it does is drive people to choose the highest capacity weapon. The choice of what to pick is much different if you compare a 2d6 weapon with 15 shots to a 2d6+2 with 8 shots, or maybe split the difference with a 2d6+1 with 12 shots. Come on! Players always go for the option that provides the biggest bonus. Adding a wider range of damage codes just means that there are more options available that aren't the best. You can play around with the weapon statistics as much as you like, but eventually the players will end up using whatever weapon is best, not out of any sense of realism but based on the optimal effect and only slightly tempered by personal taste. Players will be looking at three primary criteria: size, range and magazine capacity. Regardless of what part of these weapon's characteristics they feel is most important they'll be taking the gun that deals the most damage. -K |
| #16akodoJul 14, 2008 17:16:30 | Come on! Players always go for the option that provides the biggest bonus. Adding a wider range of damage codes just means that there are more options available that aren't the best. Fair enough, I'd rather have min-maxers all driven to the 45 auto rather than the 9x19mm. That lines up more with realism anyways. True professionals choose 1911s. I do think having 8 shots of 45 vs 15-17 shots of 9mm is a significant difference. also just because you are a cop or a soldier does not make you a true professional. See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0 Anyways, if wolf, magtech, UMC, PMC, Blazer, and other makers of cheap, low power target ammo started making a bunch of 357 sig ammo that was only giving 400 ft/lbs of energy, or possibly even less, would you let that crappy stuff justify reducing the damage potential of the regular stuff? Gun damage should be judged on regular ammo, but regular ammo should be what regular shooters would regularly use for carry/self defense. Regular ammo should be the box of ammo the clerk would grab for you if you said 'I got XYZ gun, I want some good defence ammo for it' Regular ammo should be the duty loads police carry, not the training loads available to them at the range, even thought they go through 10 times the amount of training loads as duty loads. |