His reasoning?
"I can be precise with a smaller caliber"
"I can shoot precisely all day with a 5-7, more than a Desert Eagle from the hip"
"HP is an abstract concept anyways"
Oh lord...
Step 2 Say thats the damage it does according to the book
Step 3 if you want to use those statistics, ALL of them good and bad (point to the 57) and CALL it a dessert eagle, thats fine. It may be unrealistic, but the designers wanted each gun to have a niche
Step 4 the game is designed for balance over realism. If the player wants to go with realism, have the next adventure feature someone with a rocket launcher doing 4d20 damage.
If so, find the page that has the "DM is always right" rule, and show him that. Or show him the Ftlbs of a 5.7 versus that of a .50 AE or a .44 Magnum, as Ftlbs are the way to tell how much damage something does, except for with shotguns, I think somebody that made the game stats didn't like shotguns.
The HP is an abstract concept one could be used for an argument either way, if he continues with that say "You grazed your knee, you are down to 1hp. Hey, it is an abstract concept."
Are you the DM?
If so, find the page that has the "DM is always right" rule, and show him that. Or show him the Ftlbs of a 5.7 versus that of a .50 AE or a .44 Magnum, as Ftlbs are the way to tell how much damage something does, except for with shotguns, I think somebody that made the game stats didn't like shotguns.
No, tissue damage determines how much damage a round does. Energy plays a relatively minor role.
In response to the OP, simply quote the RCMP testing report that showed that the 5.7mm round failed to penetrate deep enough and cause enough tissue damage to be considered effective for use by their officers.
Ability to do tissue damage determines the damage of a round, Energy can play a relatively minor roll.
A hypervelocity needle would do less tissue damage (& exit taking 80% of its energy with it) than a 357mag that had a slight fraction of the needle kinetic energy.
Folks dont take the 5.7 to knock over steel rams at 200, an exercise of precision mag revolvers do ok at.
Folks dont hunt deer with the 5.7, unless of course the whitetails are bundled up in Kevlar. Folks also dont use the 5.7 for Pdogs where a .223 does just gobs better.
Tell your friend they have already wildcatted a .17x28 , the .17cal neckdown of a 5.7FN. If a bullet far below .223 is 2d8 because it is small, then the .17 cal would be 2d10 because it is even smaller!
I just dont see what all the fuss is about with these two guns, since the 1911 45acp is plainly better than either (or both) ;)
As for a weapon choice, however: why would ANYONE take the Desert Eagle, which is Medium, and holds 7-8 rounds, when they can get the Five-seveN, which is Small and holds TWENTY rounds? (that was another argument I made as to how the latter is unbalanced)
It looks like he's not willing to be in the game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=FN_Five-seven&oldid=155161296
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=5.7_x_28_mm&oldid=155925773
It looks like he's not willing to be in the game.
What a puss.
You don't need a ***** like that interfering with your regular gaming session anyway. Count yourself lucky! Seriously.
From MY standpoint, I just use the gun stats as is, broken and all. I recognize that the 5-7 is unrealistically statted, but I figure that if PC's can use them so can NPCs. I regularly use my PCs tactics and strategies against them.
But that's just me.
What a puss.
I regularly use my PCs tactics and strategies against them.
Somewhat off topic: but do your NPCs that counter them have high ranks in Knowledge (Tactics)?
No, tissue damage determines how much damage a round does. Energy plays a relatively minor role.
In response to the OP, simply quote the RCMP testing report that showed that the 5.7mm round failed to penetrate deep enough and cause enough tissue damage to be considered effective for use by their officers.
Oh, I know that, but that isn't how the game is set up, the game is set up by ftlbs, at least as far as I can tell. The melee weapons aren't like that, but the melee weapons are just copied pretty much completely from D+D, to the point that there are typos involving "martial weapons proficiency".
Somewhat off topic: but do your NPCs that counter them have high ranks in Knowledge (Tactics)?
It doesn't require Knowledge (Tactics) to recognize that Disarming a foe, or that using a statistically powerful handgun is a good idea.
However, in answer to your query. Yes.
In my games, PC's are often paramilitary types going up against other paramilitary types. So it is common for at least one NPC in an encounter to have put alot of emphasis on Tactics.
What I mean is: with that particular skill, are you just as punishing against metagamers, less so, or more so?
I have a chart for this kind of stuff... but I'm pretty sure you guys get the point. Its totally house ruled on my part.
There's no need to slow down a game with these hairsplitting details.
The 5-7 Tactical is specialized in penetrating armor (when using FMJ rounds).
Its advantages are: Good penetration vs. body armor (+1 or +2 to hit) and a high magazine capacity. lower recoil.
Disadvantages: Lower trauma from the smaller round (less damage). It can take multiple rounds to down a target.
It is good for characters who like "Double Tap" a lot. You will spend less time reloading. But in exchange, you will have to spend more rounds to down a target.
The 5-7 should Not be given a + to hit vs, targets who get all of their defense from Dexterity and dodge type bonuses. It is inferior against those targets.
IMHO the 5-7 Should do 2D4 damage and the .45ACP should inflict 2D6+1.
Your player should choose the right gun for the style he wants to play. Don't let him tie up the game with continued arguments, if he does not like the answer, then it OK to say "It's because I'm the GM and I say so..end of story."
Typically I tend to use Knowledge Tactics to give a bonus before battle. Whoever leads each group may use tactics every four to six rounds to gain a +1 or +2 to both their defense and attack rolls depending on the success of the skill.
I have a chart for this kind of stuff... but I'm pretty sure you guys get the point. Its totally house ruled on my part.
Would you mind posting that chart? I get what you mean but it might also help GMs and players as to uses of tactics. Thanks
22mag <22ammo.com>
50gr @ 1650 (fed)
40gr @ 1910 (rem)
34gr @2120 (win)
5.7x28
55gr @ 1000
40gr @ 1948
32gr @ 2348
28gr @ 2299 (neat trick, lighter bullet slower than 32gr???)
5.56mm
75gr @ 2790 (freakish heavy)
55gr @ 3240
50gr @ 3400 (rem)
45gr @ 3550 (umc)
40gr @ 3800 (rem vmax)
Looking at the 40gr slugs, we see
22Mag @1910
5.7mm @1948
.223 @3800
.....um, anybody think 1948fps is closer to 3800fps than it is to 1910fps?
Looking at 50gr slugs we see
22Mag @1650
5.7mm @1000
.223 @ 3400
..... WOW, lookie there... clearly the 5.7 should get lot more damage in game than the 22Mag
OK, I know some of you say I'm only looking at slugs too heavy for the 5.7 and it is out of its element...
22Mg 34gr @2120
5.7mm 32gr @ 2348
.223 40gr @3800 (I cant find a lighter 223, but we all know it would hit mach4)
...... so again, where is the 2348fps 5.7 more like the 3800+ than it is like the 2120 ? With slightly lighter bullet it got just 10% more velocity than 22Mag, but is still insanely far behind the .223 . If he likes velocity that much, have him get the 17HRM
This is of course if we trust the WIKI 5.7 numbers, which have the 5.7 slowing down as it gets lighter.
ok, the 5.7 you can buy... not the stuff you read on the internet
27gr @ 2034 (real FN SS195LF)
40gr @ 2150 (real FN SS197SR)
and you can always look at what the gunpowder company Accurate put up for load data to see what independant loaders can get ratherthan FN Marketing Hype
Oh, and if he really wants speed, go for the .17 fireball, wiki speed puts it at 4037 for a 20gr.
.50 Action Express, however, is found wherever people hunt bears with pistols.
On a side note, I'd stat the 5.7 at 2d6, since while it's a glorified .22, it's designed (and advertised) as being as effective as a 2d8 rifle. Meeting it halfway works for me.
5.7 ammo isn't illegal, just the kind that is designated as AP.
As for 5.7 "it's designed (and advertised) as being as effective as a 2d8 rifle",
pace off 300m and check the performance of the 5.7 well inside the ranges m16 is designed for. It was supposed to be able to penetrate like a 223, but that was using the 5.7 illlegal AP getting as penetratey as a non-AP 223.
Again:
Looking at the 40gr slugs, we see
22Mag @1910
5.7mm @1948
.223/5.56 @ 3800
If you want to do a little math, we can see the 223 can do 16damage(2d8), and the 5.7 should get 1948/3800ths (aka 1/2) of that: 8Damage(2d4). If you wanna do a little more math, you'd see that KineticEnegry is a second degree fuction of Velocity, meaning you sqauer the effect you take on the speed: 1/2 speed means 1/4 energy, means 4damage(2d4)
But come on, if anyone wants to look at the 5.7 vs 22mag, then they realy REALLY need to look at the 9mm vs 357mag,
147gr 9mm @975
124gr 9mm @1100
85gr 9mm @1500
158gr 357m @1200+
124gr 357m @1450
85gr 357m @1700
that is the sad truth, you can load & shoot up 124gr 9mm (355) slugs in a 357mag case with a 357mag powder, and they are just simply 30% faster for the exact same bullet, but no FN Marketing Magic to hype up a set of bad stats for the 357mag.
The game is far too coarse to see the difference in 9mm vs 357mag, so why on earth would the 22mag vs Newer 22Mag(5.7) get anything.
Anything he wants to use to make the 5.7 get 2d8 vs 22mag, feel free to use on the 50AE vs 44mag(2d8). If he wants to say the 5.7 is more powerful than 22mag, then the DE would be more powerful than 44mag
Anyhow, thanks guys, he's out of the game and I found a suitable replacement.
Good luck with your game!
If you thought this was fun, mention the katana around the D&D boards!
Good luck with your game!
Even better, go to some off community D&D forums where the coc is not nearly as strict and talk about Scythes vs. Katanas.
After the last day, I am ready to kick this guy - he keeps arguing that the 5-7 deals just as much damage as the Desert Eagle, or any other 50 caliber handgun.
I may have missed a few things, but why are you having this argument at all? The only "official" stats I've seen for the Five-seveN is the Ultra Modern Firearms, listing it at 2d8.
Have you introduced any changes to the Desert Eagle or Five-seveN that the player is unhappy about?
-K
The only "official" stats I've seen for the Five-seveN is the Ultra Modern Firearms, listing it at 2d8.
It's also in Weapons Locker, same damage (2d8)
Yeah, rules that have at least a vague root in balance and realism, as opposed to fanboyism.
And what, specifically, would thos be?
-K
And what, specifically, would thos be?
-K
Likely either a 2d6 or a 2d4 damage for the 5.7, keeping the DE stats the same.
The guy came back to the shop yesterday, walked up to our table and called us a bunch of "neckbeards" before leaving.
Wierd...
as they reviewed the Five-seveN.
"...Regarding terminal performance for personal protection, many vocal detractors in the U.S. doubt that this small cartridge and its ultralightweight 28- or 40-grain bullets provide adequate terminal performance. Highly respected experts, such as Dr. Gary K. Roberts, have stated current 5.7x28mm loads do not offer sufficient penetration or inflict a large enough permanent wound cavity based upon testing in ordnance gelatin. A 28-grain nonexpanding .224-inch-diameter bullet at 1950 fps is certainly no magnum. Despite this, FN stands firmly behind the 5.7x28mm and states it has worked well when employed by military/law enforcement personnel in actual shootings.
What about the antigun crowd's claims of it being useful only for cop killers? "Nuts," says I. The SS190 load has always been restricted and is shipped from a U.S. Customs controlled warehouse only to military and law enforcement agencies. None has ever been available commercially. The only ammunition available for commercial sale are the sporting-grade 28-grain JHP and the 40-grain V-Max loadings. Neither of these loads is classified as armor piercing by BATFE. In reality a run-of-the-mill .44 Magnum revolver with hunting loads will penetrate deeper in body armor than either of these 5.7x28mm loads. And no FN USG has ever been used in the commission of a crime."
Find the full article here :
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/fnusg_021207/#cont
IMHO, the 5.7 USG does 2D4 damage and gets a +1 to hit for accuracy bonus. It also has a 20 round mag. So you can double tap to your heart's content.
Either way, I agree with you: It's just like the assault rifle hype. Assault rifles are actually quite rare in most crime cases.
1. What runs most reliably in my weapons?
2. What shoots most accurately in my weapons?
3. What causes the most physical damage to the target?
Since shooting live critters is pretty well out of my realm of possibility outside of hunting season (and I use far more powerful weapons than a .45 automatic for that), I rely on what people like Dr. Roberts have discovered in their testing.
As for the 5.7mm, I'd treat the military ammo as a base 2d6, armor-piercing ammo (thus 2d6-1 damage, +1 to hit armored targets). I'd never use it for self-defense. I'd rather Mozambique a guy wearing body armor with my .45 than rely on an overhyped .22 mag.
check the link at the bottom of post#21 for the gunpowder company Accurate chart on loading your own 5.7 with their brand No5 & No7 gunpowder
Theoretically, couldn't a hotter cartridge be hand loaded?
Sure, factory loads are commonly softened a bit for safety & accuracy.
Odds are a handloader can get a bit better performance.
Now, what caliber are you talking about, because that is a universal truth: 5.7Hotload would be hotter than 5.7, but 357 MightyManlyMegaMagnum +P+++p+(p) case splitting loads get no more love from d20 than a vanilla 9mm natoball 2d6
AEnemia-
check the link at the bottom of post#21 for the gunpowder company Accurate chart on loading your own 5.7 with their brand No5 & No7 gunpowder
Sure, factory loads are commonly softened a bit for safety & accuracy.
Odds are a handloader can get a bit better performance.
Now, what caliber are you talking about, because that is a universal truth: 5.7Hotload would be hotter than 5.7, but 357 MightyManlyMegaMagnum +P+++p+(p) case splitting loads get no more love from d20 than a vanilla 9mm natoball 2d6
I suppose that would be mastercraft +damage ammo. Its to bad that it costs xp to make.
i know you said that your player left and you found a replacement, i still think that you could have convinced him. his argument... "I shoot more precisely with a 5.7 than with a .50 from the hip"
well obviously you do. anything aimed will be more accurate then anything randomely fired. However, d20 modern takes into acount recoil with the Base Attack Bonus (ie. the reduction in consecutive attack bonuses by 5)
So the only precision he could be talking about would be first shot accuracy. I see no reason, besides weight giving more stress to one's wrist that a .50 is inherently less accurate than a 5.7. Fitted with the same quality of sight, (maybe even a laser??) then the accuracy would be the same, so there is no way that could be used to explain more damage for a 5.7
However, d20 modern takes into acount recoil with the Base Attack Bonus (ie. the reduction in consecutive attack bonuses by 5)
I can see that, somewhat, but how does the reduction work with melee weapons, or ranged weapons that don't really recoil that much?
again, this is all IMHO, not RAW so.. its up to interpertation
Also one of the rules of combat: If you are in front of your lines, your artillery will fall short.
(movie: Predator anyone?)
---
*minutes later*
"Not a thing. Not a ****** trace. No blood, no bodies... We hit nothing! "
Arty is Hurtfull
Collateral Damage? Where? All I see are combatants & sympathizers that got themselves blown up.
"We did not use White Phos against those militants. We used the WP on the buildings, and as soon as the militants decided to exit the burning buildings we switched to Airburst HE & Submunitions"
Its even better when they are walking along, not making hide checks so that the FO 2 miles away starts walking 82mm towards them. That always makes them scared.
BTW: Sorry for totally hijaking that thread...
Collateral Damage? Where? All I see are combatants & sympathizers that got themselves blown up.
Just hope you didn't hit children, very bad publicity, and from what I can tell, publicity makes a big difference in the course of a war.
Please take this discussion back towards the game world, and refrain from real world examples and commentary.
Current political/military tactics are inappropriate here, especially when it involves the discussion of it's victims.
Thanks.
Right then.
5.7 (the new 22mag) is 2d6 on a good day, or when you can shoot downhill
*previous post removed*
Please take this discussion back towards the game world, and refrain from real world examples and commentary.
Current political/military tactics are inappropriate here, especially when it involves the discussion of it's victims.
Thanks.
Why do you not have the staff ICON that all other wizo's have?
There are currently no d20 Modern RAW mechanics for shoowing downhill.
We just need to look into 3rd party stuff, or create 3rd party stuff, since d20Modern is under the production utter dependancy of 3rd party content providers.
Something as simple as a stepped Knowlege Tactics Check for increasing damage for Shootting Downhill. It probably was just an edit oversight that left that kTactics check out.... since, as it appears to me, that was the only use of kTactics in RAW it is an obvious edit ooopsie that left it out. We should check the official errata for further details of their kTactics Shooting Downhill RAW mechanic.
But until that time, we can use 3rd party Shooting Downhill kTactics Check mechanic. Fortunately, they have provided a forum for sharing just that kind of thing, and we are there.
but this "Extra damage shooting downhill" bit _is_ all tongue in cheek, right?
it is if you want it to be ;)
Sure, one could simply use
Any Day you can shoot downhill is a good day.
along with
5.7 (the new 22mag) is 2d6 on a good day
to say 5.7 is lucky to get 2d6 on a good day, and good days are when you can shoot downhill.... or find a quarter in the couch cushion.... or watch a rookie get GarandThumb 3 times in a row.
Much like saying a guy is so fat his shadow weighs 42lb.
5.7mm
If we take a gun, have it go half as fast with a same caliber bullet that weighs half as much, it keeps the damage.
5.56mm 1/2 speed & 1/2 wt = 5.7 = same 2d8 damage
uh-oh....
50AE
"If we take a gun, have it go half as fast with a same caliber bullet that weighs half as much, it keeps the damage."
50bmg 1/2 speed & 1/2 wt = 50AE = same 2d12 damage
650gr @2900 / 325gr @1400
so I guess that arguement just doesnt hold water.
when you half the speed & half the bullet, you drop 2 die sizes...
5.56 2d8 --> 2d6 --> 5.7 2d4
(or it can get 2d6 high altitude & space)
it is if you want it to be ;)
Sure, one could simply use
Any Day you can shoot downhill is a good day.
along with
5.7 (the new 22mag) is 2d6 on a good day
to say 5.7 is lucky to get 2d6 on a good day, and good days are when you can shoot downhill.... or find a quarter in the couch cushion.... or watch a rookie get GarandThumb 3 times in a row.
Much like saying a guy is so fat his shadow weighs 42lb.
As for a weapon choice, however: why would ANYONE take the Desert Eagle, which is Medium, and holds 7-8 rounds, when they can get the Five-seveN, which is Small and holds TWENTY rounds?
Nobody appears to have answered this question for you, so I feel it is important that I let you know there is one very powerful reason behind it: Style.
i thought the 5.7 had a better penetration characteristic then the 50ae?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP7
for info
anyway i just i'd throw this in the mix see what you number monkeys would crunch for comparisons
Type Rifle
Place of origin Germany
Production history
Designer Heckler & Koch
Specifications
Case type Rimless, bottleneck
Bullet diameter .177 in (4.5 mm)
Neck diameter .200 in (5.08 mm)
Shoulder diameter .320 in (8.13 mm)
Rim diameter .340 in (8.64 mm)
Case length 1.420 in (36.07 mm)
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type Velocity Energy
24.7 gr 2378 ft/s
(~725 m/s) 420 ft·lbf
(~571 J)
hang on guys that don't stack look at the 4.6 x 30mm that little bugger is deadly. its what the MP7 rocks and it is a lot smaller then a 50ae which kinda sucks any way its sw500 all the way
i thought the 5.7 had a better penetration characteristic then the 50ae?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP7
for info
The PDWs I have seen are military weapons with a very specific purpose: engaging people in military-style armor with a weapon smaller than a rifle.
It works on the (valid) premise that doing a tiny bit of damage is better than just flattening a bullet against a ceramic plate.
Stargate SG-1 is an excellent example of this. They fight mainly armored foes (Jaffa) for several seasons, and voila! They get FN P90s! (Though I believe they really switched because P90s look cooler than MP5s.)
Penetration is just part of being an effective round. An effective round needs enough penetration to reliably get to the creamy center where the organs and major blood vessels live, and enough expansion to do nasty stuff once it gets there. Too much of one or the other, and performance suffers.
i'd take the 5.7 over the 50ae if it did as it has a much more managable recoil then the 50ae
ts what the MP7 rocks and it is a lot smaller then a 50ae which kinda sucks any way its sw500 all the way
In any remotely realistic game setting, magnum hand guns have little place in most combat settings. Handguns over .357mag are really best for hunting. Evicerating a badguy with one shot is nice. but what if you miss? Your weapon is now way off axis, and they will have plenty of time to get a return shot at you.
A lot of defensive firearm instructors will tell you to pick the largest caliber of pistol that you can shoot comfortably enough to shoot a lot in practice. A 9mm that you shoot every other weekend will keep you alive a lot better than a .44 mag that makes you wince _thinking_ about shooting it.
In action movie settings, though, yeah, go nuts. S&W .500 Mag? no sweat, I'll rapid fire it one-handed. My wrists don't care! I'll use a custom DE 50 with unobtanium parts and I'll HOTLOAD the S&W .500 shells.
Not macho enough! I must have a Magnum Research BFR in .600 nitro!!!
yeah but i was wondering if it had a better pen profile vs the 50ae as thats what i'd heard.
i'd take the 5.7 over the 50ae if it did as it has a much more managable recoil then the 50ae
If all you are interested in is penetrating armor, then yeah the 5.7 is probably better.
Personally, I'd rather trust my life to a .45 or 9mm than either. Better yet, get a decent semiauto rifle.
So, compared to a 9x19mm pistol, a P90 or MP7 looks pretty effective. Compared with a Noveske Diplomat, they look pretty pointless.
A long barrel SMG is just not as good as a short barrel CarbineRifle for power.
The Stargate plan of skipping shorty AP m16s to take a weaker p90 when engaging known armored troops, and engaing UNKNOWN encounters was just insane. What if they run into the Rhinopeople?
"We will take probably the weakest rifle in existance to deal with armored enemys"
Shorty m16/m4?
"No, weaker"
But back in the day, states banned hunting deer with .223 because it was too weak!
"Doesnt matter, we found something much weaker to be our heavy weapon vs armor."
Half by Half of a .223 is not as powerfull as a regular .223
AP 5.7 is nowhere near the penetration of full .223 Steelcore
Anyone that wants to lok at the small gain over 22mag to upDice the 5.7 over 22mag, needs to look at the giant gain of .223 over 5.7 to upDice the .223 over the 5.7.... and then turn their attention to the 9mm&357mag
The game doesnt have the detail for that.
5.7 is a 22mag, not a 223... if that was a scale of 1 to 10 it would be about 1 or 2
If a military asked Federal or Winchester to load steel 100gr @2500 APDS ammo for the 50AE to be armor piercing, lookout! So stop comparing ap & non AP ammo in a penetration match.... cause against the Rhinopeople the 44swc & 50AE BarnesSolids have way better results
But back to the OP,
Why take a 50AE? Because the 5.7 numbers are wrong and it is a 2d6 gun at best.
And O'Neill on SG-1 did state they switched from the MP5 to P90 to pierce armor better. Add in the fact that a smaller weapon tends to downplay the appearance of aggressiveness, and I can see why they chose it.
If someone made something like the american 180 in a PDW cartridge, that could have some real potential, with the 1200 RPM and 180 rounds, doesn't matter if each one isn't very effective, a one second burst puts 20 rounds downrange.
Why is it that people look for specifically armor piercing cartridges rather than say... putting a tungsten spike in the back center of a JHP? I can understand that against a group that signed the hague convention, that wouldn't work, but the aliens in stargate and the insurgents currently being fought never signed it.
As to the practicality of magnums, that would depend on what you are firing it from. Firing a .44 from a 1894 levergun isn't going to be a problem, and I heard that the S&W 460 revolver makes them nice and tame.
Look! A shiny!
SG1 uses 5.7 and they get captured how many times a season?
5.7 : The calibre of fightlosers & prisoners
Imagine how boring that show would be if the heros won fights & went home victors rather than being taken way in chains. Applying that to out PCs, ask you players how frequently they want to be captured, and if they say "A lot" then give them 5.7mm. If they say they dont want to be losers, then give them m14 & 44-40 pistols
I dont know why this thread is still going.
The 'debate' of 5.7 has been exposed: It is statted wrong in RAW.
If you play disregarding this info, then there is no logical tangible reason to take the DesertEagle or any other magnum.... ever. Game balance has bigger guns doing more damage, but the 5.7 stats break the balance, and ignores physics to do it. It is not just broken, but Artificially broken akin to Artificial Game Balance in reverse.
Is it just me, or would that be somewhat of a painful thing to fire from a k/l frame?
The advantage of the 44-40 is that after you blast a burst of it from your machinepistol, you have a handy SmokeScreen to hide in from incoming fire. MicroUzi/Mac10 stretch in 44-40?
Puts the 'Rest In Peace' into the Peacemaker
Anyone looking at taking the FiveseveN for 2d8 should consider the 45-70 derringer instead for featless MAS smackdown
2d10 Tiny
Besides which, half the fun is watching them cook an escape up and getting away.
They aren't carrying the heavier weapons around because their primary purpose is not assault.And yes, they have used M2HB's before.
My villians dont have the overly complicated & easily escapable slow death device to use on PCs. They just stab you when you are down by MAS. Prisoners are just another mouth to feed, and you have to divert resources from the master plan to handle prisoners... nope, run up the BlackFlag cause I'm out of Quarters
BUT,
if your PCs love gettiong captured & losing all their stuff
and hope the villian doent use a Saw&Tourney to 'Disarm' prisoners (ohh, the villiany he commits)>
Then they are welcome to choose their weapons poorly & buy new gear over & over (if they escape)
Have to keep this in mind:
The guys the good guys are fighting are the BADguys.
Badguys dont treat prisoners well, if they take prisoners at all... All the enemy wounded become CoupFodder & Lootees
Not every gun can do every job well.
The 5-7 Tactical is specialized in penetrating armor (when using FMJ rounds).
Its advantages are: Good penetration vs. body armor (+1 or +2 to hit) and a high magazine capacity. lower recoil.
Disadvantages: Lower trauma from the smaller round (less damage). It can take multiple rounds to down a target.
It is good for characters who like "Double Tap" a lot. You will spend less time reloading. But in exchange, you will have to spend more rounds to down a target.
The 5-7 should Not be given a + to hit vs, targets who get all of their defense from Dexterity and dodge type bonuses. It is inferior against those targets.
IMHO the 5-7 Should do 2D4 damage and the .45ACP should inflict 2D6+1.
Your player should choose the right gun for the style he wants to play. Don't let him tie up the game with continued arguments, if he does not like the answer, then it OK to say "It's because I'm the GM and I say so..end of story."
Do you have a full list of realistic gun stats or do you just fabricate these on the spot?
2d3: .25 ACP
2d4: .22 LR, 5.45x25mm, .32 ACP, 3.4mm flechette
2d4+1: .38 S&W, .380 ACP, 9x18mm PM, .38 Long Colt, 9x19mm (subsonic loading), .38 Special, .22 WMR, 9x18mm PMM, 5.7x28mm FN, 4.6mm HK, 7.62x25mm Tokarev
2d6: .38 Super, 9x19mm, .22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .338 nova, 4.35mm flechette
2d6+1: .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 AE, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30 Carbine/7.62x33mm, 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czech loading), .300 Whisper (subsonic loading)
2d8: .45 Long Colt +p, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .50 AE, .440 CorBon, .50 Alexander, .458 Socom, 5.45x39mm/.21 Russian, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 20ga, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO, .44 AutoMag, .300 Whisper, 4.7mm caseless, 12mm, 10.7mm
2d8+1: 7.62x39mm M43/.30 Russian, .30-30, .243 Win, 6.8mm SPC, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .510 Whisper (subsonic loading), 14mm caseless
2d8+d6: .803 gyro
2d10: .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, 7.92x57mm Mauser, .300 Win Mag, 12ga, .45-70 Gov't, .500 magnum, 8mm caseless
2d10+1: .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin Magnum, .45-70 +p, 12 ga 3" Magnum
2d12: .338 Lapua, .375 H&H Magnum, 10ga, 12ga 3-1/2" Magnum, .510 Whisper
2d12+1: .458 Win Mag, .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys, .600 Nitro Express, .666 magnum
2d12+2: 8ga
2d12+3: .700 Nitro Express
2d12+4: .800 Nitro Express
2d20: 12.7x109mm Soviet, .50 BMG/12.7x99mm
2d20+2: 22.4mm
2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet
I concur with Coyote, but I would have said
Ability to do tissue damage determines the damage of a round, Energy can play a relatively minor roll.
A hypervelocity needle would do less tissue damage (& exit taking 80% of its energy with it) than a 357mag that had a slight fraction of the needle kinetic energy.
Folks dont take the 5.7 to knock over steel rams at 200, an exercise of precision mag revolvers do ok at.
Folks dont hunt deer with the 5.7, unless of course the whitetails are bundled up in Kevlar. Folks also dont use the 5.7 for Pdogs where a .223 does just gobs better.
Tell your friend they have already wildcatted a .17x28 , the .17cal neckdown of a 5.7FN. If a bullet far below .223 is 2d8 because it is small, then the .17 cal would be 2d10 because it is even smaller!
I just dont see what all the fuss is about with these two guns, since the 1911 45acp is plainly better than either (or both) ;)
Taking sides in a caliber debate is a futile effort. :P
You use what you need (or want), when you have access to it. Carry what you feel comfortable with.
This my caliber/gun is better! attitude is quite disturbing (on a game board of all places) -> you can see this in all the "motivational" Photoshopped posters floating around the internet.
In any remotely realistic game setting, magnum hand guns have little place in most combat settings. Handguns over .357mag are really best for hunting. Evicerating a badguy with one shot is nice. but what if you miss? Your weapon is now way off axis, and they will have plenty of time to get a return shot at you.
A lot of defensive firearm instructors will tell you to pick the largest caliber of pistol that you can shoot comfortably enough to shoot a lot in practice. A 9mm that you shoot every other weekend will keep you alive a lot better than a .44 mag that makes you wince _thinking_ about shooting it.
In action movie settings, though, yeah, go nuts. S&W .500 Mag? no sweat, I'll rapid fire it one-handed. My wrists don't care! I'll use a custom DE 50 with unobtanium parts and I'll HOTLOAD the S&W .500 shells.
Not macho enough! I must have a Magnum Research BFR in .600 nitro!!!
What about something in-between?
Taking sides in a caliber debate is a futile effort. :P
You use what you need (or want), when you have access to it. Carry what you feel comfortable with.
This my caliber/gun is better! attitude is quite disturbing (on a game board of all places) -> you can see this in all the "motivational" Photoshopped posters floating around the internet.
Some of them are funny though. You have to admit that.
The "A 1911 in my hand is better than a 911 operator on the phone" one made me smirk.
What about something in-between?
Good question...
I guess if you aren't highlighting firearms in terms of technical accuracy, OR in terms of a gunporn splatterfest, then a gun is just a gun. Call it 2d6 for handguns, 2d8 for rifles, and move on. Or maybe you have a few archetypes, and any other gun is lumped into one of those.
For a campaign in-between "realism" and "acton movie", how often do you think they would see combat use?
Taking sides in a caliber debate is a futile effort. :P
This my caliber/gun is better! attitude is quite disturbing (on a game board of all places)
Within reason, it is just stubbornness on the arguer's part. I am fond of .45ACP, but I readily acknowledge that anything from .380ACP to .44Mag can be a reasonable defensive caliber. Training really is more important than the weapon.
I don't get all the 9mm/.40/.45ACP debate though. Despite the numbers they all have similar effects.
EDIT: And I just noticed, that had NO relevance to a RPG POV. Sorry.
I meant in the fact that you equated magnums or other large caliber handguns (.50 AE Desert Eagle, .500 S&W revolver) as "impractical" for combat in a realistic setting and in the "action movie" genre that you can go nuts without worrying about viability.
For a campaign in-between "realism" and "acton movie", how often do you think they would see combat use?
To be honest, I can't remember seeing a Desert eagle in many movies that weren't action fests. Some police used to use magnum revolvers, so that might mark the edge of practicality. But then again, IRL, is "reality" by default...
I'm not being very helpful. I am seeing "Tom Clancy" vs "John Woo" as a light switch, not a volume knob. Sorry.
I meant in the fact that you equated magnums or other large caliber handguns (.50 AE Desert Eagle, .500 S&W revolver) as "impractical" for combat in a realistic setting and in the "action movie" genre that you can go nuts without worrying about viability.
For a campaign in-between "realism" and "acton movie", how often do you think they would see combat use?
Easy: mooks and lackeys would carry the realistically viable weapons while Lieutenants and BBEG's would carry the heavy artillery and impractical weapons. The minute a character gets heroic levels, they suddenly become awesome enough to wield a DEagle two fisted into combat... if they have the feats.
Instead of starting a new thread, I thought i'd ask the question here instead.
The rifle that O'Neill (guy in the black cap) is using, does anyone know what make/model it is?
However, prop men being prop men, it could be anything. It could be a 40-year old warhorse of a G3 with a scope and bipod tacked on.
Alternately, SGC undoubtedly has the resources to customize weapons any way they want them. It may have started life as a G3, and have few original parts.
Yeah, for all we know it could have started off as one of those old wood-stocked G3s, and eventually ended up like it is.
:D
Wow. I am glad he isn't here anymore. Or maybe he is glad he isn't, the gun nuts would rip him a new one.
Not necessarily. If there's one thing we've learned, it's this: You can lead a fool to knowledge, but you can't make him think.
IMO, one unassailable fact is that if FNs (and H&Ks) PDW cartridges were so superior, it would be spreading into the firearm market more. We would see the caliber used by many more agencies than we do.
Truth is, 9mm and 5.56mm have largely locked down the shoulder arm market, and 9mm, .40cal and 45acp have largely locked down the handgun market. At least for military and law enforcement.
The PDW calibers have a very limited role: penetrating military body armor with a small weapon. It is better to create a small wound through a IIIa vest with a 5.7mm than leave a bruise with a .40cal.
If you don't absolutely need a tiny SMG like a P90, you are better off with an assault carbine like an M4 or G36K.
Therefore, it's an excellent weapon to finish off a near dead bad-guy, but not what they use primarily for attacking. Finally, I toned down the Range Increment to 60 feet (though that might be too much, I made my decision and will see how it goes for the remainder of the campaign)
---
By the way, what has locked down the submachinegun market?
Edit -> Would you say AP rounds work against natural armor bonuses?
Lots of acronym clubs (FBI, NYPD, DEA, SWAT, SF, SEAL, etc) are using compact assault rifles like the M4 and G36K where they used to use SMGs. These are typically 5.56mm.
Edit -> Would you say AP rounds work against natural armor bonuses?
I would say so. I don't see any difference between a Kevlar vest and a quarter-inch of chitin shell.
SMGs are pretty well on their way out, as the 5.56mm subcompact rifle is almost universally superior: it penetrates soft armor, it has less penetration in sheetrock and building construction, it has more penetration of hard barriers, and it causes significantly more trauma to the bad guys. The only real downside is the muzzle blast, but flash hiders like John Noveske's KX3 "Krink brake" or actual sound suppressors can mitigate this back down to acceptable levels.
The problem is that Modern statted the 5.7mm all wrong. The designers gave it far too high of a damage code, and they gave it more armor-piercing capability than the rifles. Per the rules, a 5.7mm has a better chance of penetrating body armor than a .50 BMG.
The solution is simple: treat the 5.7mm as a 2d6 cartridge with AP stats (-1 damage, +1 to hit against armored targets), and grant the same armor piercing ability (but not damage penalty) to all rifle-caliber weapons.
Boom, the P90 suddenly looks great compared to a Beretta M9, but properly inferior to a shorty AR-15 variant.
Ah, one more question for now - if using the "Armor as DR" rule, would AP rounds work against a Tough Hero's Damage Reduction talents?
I would say no. The tough hero's not armored, per se, he's just really tough. AP ammo shouldn't make a difference there.
Per the rules, a 5.7mm has a better chance of penetrating body armor than a .50 BMG.
Really? I don't disagree with you in principle and as such houseruled it that way, but i'm looking at Weapons Locker, and the weapons that use it (FN P90 and the FN Five-seveN) don't blatantly state any kind of armor defeating properties outside of descriptive text on the P90 (which I don't count as having a gameplay effect), nor is the caliber listed in the book has having that property (unless you consider the raised damage as such) It may be so in Ultramodern Firearms, and if it is, please correct me.
The other problem is that two different sources exist for AP ammo as well - Urban Arcana (+2 versus armored targets) and Weapons Locker (+1 versus armored targets, -1 to damage)
Really? I don't disagree with you in principle and as such houseruled it that way, but i'm looking at Weapons Locker, and the weapons that use it (FN P90 and the FN Five-seveN) don't blatantly state any kind of armor defeating properties outside of descriptive text on the P90 (which I don't count as having a gameplay effect), nor is the caliber listed in the book has having that property (unless you consider the raised damage as such) It may be so in Ultramodern Firearms, and if it is, please correct me.
The other problem is that two different sources exist for AP ammo as well - Urban Arcana (+2 versus armored targets) and Weapons Locker (+1 versus armored targets, -1 to damage)
Shows what I know. I got it mixed up in my memory with the Russian 9x39mm subsonic cartridge, which does have specific rules for armor penetration in Weapons Locker.
Sleep deprivation is a wonderful thing!
Ah, one more question for now - if using the "Armor as DR" rule, would AP rounds work against a Tough Hero's Damage Reduction talents?
I would say no. The tough hero's not armored, per se, he's just really tough. AP ammo shouldn't make a difference there.
I would also say no, for the same reasons.
Keep the 2d4/2d6/2d8/2d10 progression for damage, but rifles would also get a -2/-4/-6/-8 modifier to Def or DR. For defense, the mod could only reduce Def by the amount the armor gives.
Past that, AP ammo could reduce Def/DR further and reduce damage by the same amount.
This would let a 5.56mm M4 with FMJ do better against armor than a 9mm MP5 firing AP rounds, despite both being 2d6 weapons.
Edit: extended the damage progression to 2d10. My M4 vs MP5 comparison may not be accurate, but you get my drift. M4 vs Desert eagle perhaps?
For example, the Undercover Vest gives +3 Defense, the Tactical Vest gives +6 Defense, and Mastercrafting can add up to +3 Defense on top of any armor as well.
A 5.56mm round (currently 2d8) would therefore effectively cut through a Tactical Vest. A 7.62mm round (currently 2d10) would (assumedly) be -8 under your ruling, making all armors but Forced Entry Unit virtually useless.
This is also slightly off topic, but I was considering some sort of "Armor has HP" system at one point. In any event, have any ideas regarding keeping your armor penetration rules be fair?
gotta remember, the big picture is Bullet Resistance & Coverage.
So what if you have a Level IV (~15-18 Hardness) Helmet covering 10% of your body... that works out to a total coarse d20 2Hardness for non-location d20 modern hits.
You'd do better with a Level II (~10Hard) vest & bucket over 60% of your body.... coarse d20 non-location 6 hardnesss
If one looks at the progression of the RAW vest armors (+3 & Up) as just adding more coverage of Level II, it makes sense... upto where it says you get steel plates & sleeves.. then you just dont see the spike in Def+ that should corespond from getting sleeves & III Strike Plates.
+3, 3lb UndercoverVest (assuming Kevlar IIa/II)
+4, 4lb Concealable (more coverage +1)
+5, 8lb LightDuty (more +1)
+6, 10lb TacticalVest (more coverage +1, and Kevlar III +1 ?)
+7, 15lb SpecialResponse
"Built like the tactical vest, but incorporating groin and neck protection as well as a ceramic plate over the chest,"
--- uh, so we step up the coverage for the +1, but we also go to the strikeplate inserts(IV?) and it is still just +1 over the vest below it?
+9, 20lb ForcedEntry
"The most powerful protection available is built into this suit, which consists of a heavy torso jacket with ceramic plates over the chest and back"
--- ok, second plate is +1 over SpecResponse
"neck and groin guards, arm protection"
--- woah, Sleeves? Way more coverage... at least +1, but it is more coverage of a better grade too, so shouldnt that be +2?
"and a helmet"
--- what? we cant wear a ballistic beanie till we get 3 feats? And shouldnt that bucket get another +1 too
Bullet vs armor is relatively predictable simple. The armor stops the bullet, or it doesn't. The bullet has enough energy per surface area to break the fibers, or it doesn't.
Bullet vs flesh is highly unpredictable. An identical bullet can bore a clean path through your thigh, with little lasting damage, or an inch to the left, it goes through an artery the size of your finger, and you are dead in 5 min.
Rolling dice for damage is good for the bullet vs flesh part, not so good for the bullet vs armor part.
GURPS uses only d6s for weapon damage.
There is a house rule on their forums that has armor blocking _dice_ of damage, not _points_ of damage. If you are wearing "2d6" armor, and you get shot by a .45, (2d6 damage), you take no damage. If you are shot by a .44 mag, (3d6) the armor stops 2 dice, leaving you with 1d6 actual damage.
That system is predictable in the right places, and random in the right places. (Big thanks to Douglas Cole for that.)
Now, since any weapon you have any business expecting to survive is 2dX, maybe we can use a shift in die type, not less dice.
Lets say the progression is none/1D4/2D4/2D6/2D8/2D10.
You are wearing a 3-step vest. You are hit with a 9mm bullet (2d6). You go 3 steps down the line and end up at none. No damage.
Or, you are wearing a 2-step vest, and are hit by a .44 mag (2d8). You take 2d4 damage.
Comments? I just made this up off the top of my head.
Ed-
gotta remember, the big picture is Bullet Resistance & Coverage.
Absolutely right.
This is why hit locations are one of the first house rules I tack on when I want to be more reaslistic. But that can bog down games if it is too specific.
For something like D20M, I'd say roll a d10 along with your d20 to hit, and if the d20 roll hits, check the d10 on the hit location chart you made up. (Head,Armx2,torsox3,vitals,legsx3 works.)
The STEPS of die size for armor sounds fast & fun on the surface.
One could easily integrate AP ammo negates 2 steps of armor, Rifles negate 1step (stacking with AP), JHP increases 1 step of armor, Shotguns increase 1 step armor... etc
Would have to play test it, but that seems like it would be a fast & fun way to game, without the Real Name details of NIJ Levels & FTlb velocities. Leave real named objects behind & run abstract Medium Pistol / MagnumPistol / Rifle / HeavyRifle and Vest I / Vest II / Suit III / Suit IV etc
My old system was basically a hybrid AC/DR system. Each type of armor had a DR and an AC bonus. If you were hit with a roll that ended up lower than your armored AC but higher than your touch AC, you took a hit to the armor and applied the armor's DR (if applicable against the round that hit you). If you took a hit that was higher than your armored AC, then the bad guy shot around your armor and hit you somewhere soft and vital.
It got a little more complicated with composite armors (Level IIIA vest with groin/neck/shoulder protection with Level IV plates overtop), but still workable. Rifles and AP pistol ammo ignored any soft body armor, and AP rifle ammo ignored anything less than level IV plates.
Ah, one more question for now - if using the "Armor as DR" rule, would AP rounds work against a Tough Hero's Damage Reduction talents?
If you are using an armor as DR house rule, I would say yes as it is cumulative with armor DR.
If you want to ballpark it, any soft armor or ceramic hard armor will require replacement after being hit. So, either the PCs buy new armor after the firefight, or they go into the next one with reduced protection.
I wonder how this system would handle criticals...:lightbulb :whatsthis
They could bypass armor DR.
I also concur with the above on HP, but it does add book keeping.
"and a helmet"
--- what? we cant wear a ballistic beanie till we get 3 feats? And shouldnt that bucket get another +1 too
Good job at skewing facts, yet again. Anyone can wear it, but only those trained in it will get the most out of it.
How about Armor that has HP?, therefore making it necessary that it has to be changed out after a while.
Rather than HP per se, how about a saving throw based on the amount of damage the wearer took? (ie penetrating damage) Fail the save, the armor drops by a point. Roll after each combat.
The Armor HP plan I promote is based on the amount of reduction, so if I give a vest DR8 and 16hp, it can take a maximum of 8 damage for any hit against it since that is the maximum it can block. Envisioning this as a Level II vest against 9mm, it can block two average 7point hits and have enough points left to slow the third hit by 2 points, or block one 12point hit and have enough to slow the next hit by 4 (half of average seems decent)
Armor Save or Drop 1 Point Protection
Problem is that DR10 armors will be greatly compromised by very few AK/44 hits, and this mechanic doesnt follow that rapid deterioration. A DR15 Ceramic will be worthless with 2 AK hits max, leaving relatively few (5-8) for the flex vest under the plate.
This is of course said here as DR, but I use the term Hardness for armors to avoid munchkin damage type monkeybusiness. To use DR would necessitate additional text to address stacking questions and DR/ER problems. Ship armor is hardness, and that is effective vs all types of ship weapons (specific exclusions of course). So I use that term to avoid the whole munchkin Type hacking to bypass armors.
As for your new idea for STEP armor, Sure:
DC 5 + Damage or lose a STEP worth of structural integrityso some average 9mm hits will be DC12, a reasonable goal for medium vest survivability. Perhaps higher rated armors would have lower base DC, or something to reflect they are sturdier and Heavy 4Step armor dont mind a few 9mm pings
I think this idea is well worthy of a thread of its own,
Ed, start a new thread & paste in what you have so far. We can keep the creative juices flowing there.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196065
Also, I wanted to say that I haven't scoured this article and or the links within the article completely, but it may help some of us out.
Rather than HP per se, how about a saving throw based on the amount of damage the wearer took? (ie penetrating damage) Fail the save, the armor drops by a point. Roll after each combat.
Were you thinking of a Fortitude or Reflex save (i'm leaning towards Reflex, but you may have another one in mind) The armor, of course, seems like an attended object in this case, so we could base it off of the rules for a flamethrower's tank (which requires a Reflex save to avoid being hit similar to the ones backstabbist posted DC 5 + x) only instead of avoiding being hit, the save would lower the rate at which it's effectiveness decreases.
.jpg)
This would give the few Fast Heroes that opt for Medium and above armor a slight advantage over the Tough Hero / Dreadnaughts with heavy armor.
To be honest, I'm sort of partial to the ballistics of the 5-7, I'm just an advocate though, no expert by any means. I did stumble upon this link and I felt compelled to share it with my community/friends...hope you enjoy
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196065
Also, I wanted to say that I haven't scoured this article and or the links within the article completely, but it may help some of us out.
I find it odd, since you are such an advocate of "balance" in the other thread - what's so balancing about a small pistol with 20 rounds that does 2d8 damage compared to the Desert Eagle, which is medium with 7-9 rounds?
The gun does not throw my game out of balance though. Whatever weapons my PCs want and they can reasonably obtain, I allow it. Just remember though, the bad guys have access to the same weapons and skills as your PCs, if your PCs load up with 5-7s maybe they should face a bunch of ninjas that are wielding the same gun. If you want to add a twist, and I often do this particular strategy, I send my PCs on a mission where their supplies is..well supplied for them, they are not in a position to sneak their gear into another country, or a plane, boat etc. I don't think that a maximum of 4 more DMG is mess up my game though.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/357magnum.htm
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg69-e.htm
---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7_x_28_mm
http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0110.html
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg18-e.htm
All of the gelatin tests I've seen of the 5.7mm (even the whiz-bang military/LE loads) resulted in a wound track almost identical to the standard NATO 9x19mm FMJ load, which is hardly a respected manstopper. Granted, it's an impressive channel for a .22 magnum, but it's no magic bullet.
The comparison still stands. If you want pistol ballistics, pistol concealability and rifle body armor penetration, then the 5.7mm is a good choice. If you want rifle ballistics, get a rifle.
Check this thread post# 21 for crunchie numbers
and specificly the link to Accurate Powder Companyfor a non-biased load data. The powder manufacturer has no cares what brass you load with their powder, nor any desire to rate one caliber over another. They just say what is safe to load given calibers to, so you get impartial velocities.
But if folks thought all that was important was velocity without regard to terminal effect, then they should grab up the 17HMR for super cheap & small 2d8 since it gets 2500fps no problemo. Of course, the gun nuts here will tell you all the things wrong with that plan, but you probably could see that coming anyway.
Just keep in mind that small fast bullets are so terrific, folks hate the measly performance of m4 5.56 and want bigger 6.8 etc. SO how is it that the pathetic 5.7 (compared to a tiny rifle round like 5.56) is so great? Here is an idea, what do you get when you put the illegal 5.7AP UberSlug (just the projectile) into a 5.56 brass at almost twice the velocity? 2d10? 2d12?
Were you thinking of a Fortitude or Reflex save (i'm leaning towards Reflex, but you may have another one in mind)
I really hadn't gotten that far. I definitely wasn't basing it off the wearer's saves.
I was thinking d20+(some number) vs penetrating damage+(some number)
(thinks a minute...)
Maybe double the def/DR and add that to the d20? And a non-penetrating hit can still damage armor, so maybe roll it against the full damage.
d20 + 2 (alright)
versus 5.56mm
d20 + what number?
Then we can compare various situations and work out the kinks in these rules.
...Now, since any weapon you have any business expecting to survive is 2dX, maybe we can use a shift in die type, not less dice.
Lets say the progression is none/1D4/2D4/2D6/2D8/2D10....
Additionally, I would call the 1d4 damage level "blunt trauma". The bullet did not penetrate, but you take damage like being hit with a baseball bat. This is important in real life because you won't be bleeding like you would through a penetrating hit.
You would soak up the same amount of impact at the none level, but your armor spreads the punch over a wide enough area that there is no long term effect. It just hurts.
To stat the actual armors, lets say light armor is 2 steps (.22 to no damage), Medium armor is 3 steps (9mm to no damage) and heavy armor is 4 steps (.44mag to no damage)
I would then stat the plates for III & IV armor separately, since they are usually just added to a standard IIIa vest.
Rifle-class rounds are inherently better penetrators than pistol-class, so III/IV plates will need to get a bonus to overcome the bonus penetration levels.
If we give +2 shifts for rifle penetration, then it takes 7 shifts to take 7.62mm to no damage. That is +3 for a "Rifle Plate". If AP ammo also gives +2 shifts, an "AP Plate" would be +5.
Armor Summary:
Light armor - 2 shifts
Med armor - 3 shifts
Heavy armor - 4 shifts
Rifle plate - +3 shifts
AP Plate - +5 shifts.
Weapon summary:
Pistol class (handgun/SMG) - No shifts (the standard)
Rifle class - +2 shifts vs armor
AP Ammo - +2 Shifts vs armor
The 2d4 and up steps would be considered penetrating hits and have one effect on the condition of the armor. These hits would have a very good chance of reducing the protection of the armor.
None/1d4 would be considered "stops" and be another category. This is the type of attack the armor would be designed for, so should be able to take several hits with minimal chance of damage.
If the damage is shifted past none, there is no damage to the armor at all.
As for the actual chance of degradation, I dunno. This might be a good time for RL research. I know police vests typically are replaced after a single incident, which probably is only a few stops.
Just keep in mind that small fast bullets are so terrific, folks hate the measly performance of m4 5.56 and want bigger 6.8 etc.
Not shooting the messenger, Stab, but this is a personal peeve of mine...
I believe the lack of effectiveness of the M16 is due to the M855 round most fire, not the caliber.
The M855 round fires a jacketed lead bullet with a tungsten alloy penetrator. That's right, in a sense, its AP ammo. It was designed to fight an enemy armored like NATO troops generally are (ie, the Red Army), and it does a good job in that scenario. Unfortunately, that scenario generally doesn't exist in Iraq.
Small, fast bullets like the 5.56mm are most effective when they break up on impact. The bullet enters the target whole, breaks up, and exits in several pieces, leaving a mess behind.
When you stick a big piece of steel in the middle of a lead bullet, it obviously won't break into pieces as easily.
For the rare times you need to go through cinderblocks, or car doors, or whatever, carry a few mags of actual AP ammo. Otherwise, use something that will take a man out of a fight in 1-2 hits, a simple, jacketed lead bullet.
So for a leather jacket...
d20 + 2 (alright)
versus 5.56mm
d20 + what number?
Then we can compare various situations and work out the kinks in these rules.
You know, I can't see a leather jacket putting up meaningful resistance to a rifle bullet, and because of that, I can't see it degrading until it actually falls off from all the holes. That may be a special case though.
I was really picturing modern ballistic materials, like Kevlar and Spectra. So lets look at an undercover vest (+3) instead.
Lets try:
d20 + def x 2 vs (10 + Highest damage, +1 per additional hit during the firefight)
2d8 averages 9, right? So you end up with d20 + 6 vs TN 19. That sounds like a 65% of your +3 vest becoming a +2 vest after a single AK round to the chest. Sound reasonable?
Extending this to 9mm makes me wonder.
D20+6 vs TN 17 is a 55% chance
Extending this to .22LR makes me wonder even more.
D20+6 vs TN 15 is a 45% chance
You know, I can't see a leather jacket putting up meaningful resistance to a rifle bullet, and because of that, I can't see it degrading until it actually falls off from all the holes. That may be a special case though.
I was really picturing modern ballistic materials, like Kevlar and Spectra. So lets look at an undercover vest (+3) instead.
Lets try:
d20 + def x 2 vs (10 + Highest damage, +1 per additional hit during the firefight)
2d8 averages 9, right? So you end up with d20 + 6 vs TN 19. That sounds like a 65% of your +3 vest becoming a +2 vest after a single AK round to the chest. Sound reasonable?
Extending this to 9mm makes me wonder.
D20+6 vs TN 17 is a 55% chance
Extending this to .22LR makes me wonder even more.
D20+6 vs TN 15 is a 45% chance
I think it should be d20 + (Defense bonus x 2) vs (10 + Max damage + 1 per extra hit) for simplicity's sake.
What's TN, true number or total number? Neither?
---
Oh yeah - on Mastercraft, would you say a Mastercraft +2 Leather Jacket (+3 to Defense) stands up like the Undercover Vest?
I can't wait to see how Autofire and shotgun shells work here :D
You know, another factor that should come into play is distance. Do you have any ideas on how to integrate range increments with this system?
Rounds missing from the Table:
14.5x115mm Russian
13x64mm German (the round from the MG-131)
.60 American (Another one, there was a 15.2mm/.60 cal on the P-38L post war in a test.)
15.5x115mm (never actually saw production, but it was for the BRG-15)
13.9x99 British (Boys AT Rifle)
What's TN, true number or total number? Neither?
Sorry if I used the wrong term.
I was thinking Target Number. I think I meant DC (which more often means Disconnect in my head. Yay MMORPGs!)
Oh yeah - on Mastercraft, would you say a Mastercraft +2 Leather Jacket (+3 to Defense) stands up like the Undercover Vest?
I would. Because unless the mastercrafter has some secret method to make chemically treated animal skin tougher, but not stiffer, what he did was reinforce the leather with ballistic materials.
I can't wait to see how Autofire and shotgun shells work here :D
Interesting you grouped those two, since they use the same concept. You do more damage through multiple hits.
The simplest way for burst fire would be to treat it as several hits from the base damage. Three maybe?
For shotgun firing buckshot, each individual pellet typically has a little more energy than a .22, less than a .380ACP in any case. There are just 8-11 of them. Buckshot is actually stopped fairly far down the armor food chain. (doesn't mean it doesn't hurt though.)
A shotgun firing slugs is just a rifle firing an extremely heavy bullet, and should be statted and handled likewise. 2d10 maybe?
You know, another factor that should come into play is distance. Do you have any ideas on how to integrate range increments with this system?
I'm reading through the rules you just posted now, and will reply what I think
Interesting you grouped those two, since they use the same concept. You do more damage through multiple hits.
The simplest way for burst fire would be to treat it as several hits from the base damage. Three maybe?
For shotgun firing buckshot, each individual pellet typically has a little more energy than a .22, less than a .380ACP in any case. There are just 8-11 of them. Buckshot is actually stopped fairly far down the armor food chain. (doesn't mean it doesn't hurt though.)
A shotgun firing slugs is just a rifle firing an extremely heavy bullet, and should be statted and handled likewise. 2d10 maybe?
Perhaps - but there isn't just one gauge, shouldn't the damage vary between slugs in these different shotgun shells?
As for autofire - that's 10 bullets expended, but they don't all hit (unlike Burst Fire, which is those 3 - 5 rounds hitting the target, from my understanding)
(A good would test be taking a Beretta 93r, using both Burst Fire and Autofire against a Tactical Vest and see how long it lasts. Then replace it with an M4 Carbine to represent a step up in damage.)
Oh, and you forgot to add onto the range increment part - should it be significant in these rules?
Perhaps - but there isn't just one gauge, shouldn't the damage vary between slugs in these different shotgun shells?
.410 bore - 2d8
20ga & 12ga - 2d10
10ga - 2d12
I don't know of any modern, portable shotguns 8ga or larger. If you really want to be a modeller, you might strip a few points from the 20ga, but remember Modern says .38 special and 10mm Auto are both 2d6...
Shotgun slugs have the streamlining of a wet moose. Sideways. Your range increment should be pretty bad, but better than with buckshot. I would guess 45 feet.
Oh, and you forgot to add onto the range increment part - should it be significant in these rules?
Since range increments have more to do with effective range than maximum range, I would ignore it. Most weapons on the list have PLENTY of hurting left after 10 increments.
Anyhow, check out these pics I found, could be useful as a reference.
Since range increments have more to do with effective range than maximum range, I would ignore it. Most weapons on the list have PLENTY of hurting left after 10 increments.
I guess you're right, it's just that there aren't any rules for damage/hitting after those 10 increments. Mostly because it's such a rarity for a PC to get killed by a bullet that wasn't meant for them from under half a mile away, from below cover.
I'd say that, other than shotguns, a weapon should take a -1 to damage for every three range increments after the first.
So, at the fourth RI, it's -1 damage. At the 7th, it's -2 damage. At the 10th and final increment, it's -3 damage. This also takes into account the fact that rifle ammo holds velocity better than pistol ammo.
A side effect of your suggestion, Johanixx, is that PCs can now put up a fight with distant non-human targets (vehicles, for starters) and not have the round be just as effective as it would be at a MUCH closer scale of conflict. Also, this will force them to rely on methods suitable for taking down those vehicles, and not have their rifle be "one size fits all" in combat situations.
Maybe you could try reducing the damage dice by one step after the bullet passes past 5 range increments? Just a thought.
Do you mean to imply that the bullet does 0 damage once it hits 10 range increments (as it seems to be by doubling your recommendation) or that all it'll lose is that 1 die? (2d4 to 1d4, 2d6 to 1d6, etc) Also, how would you rule rounds that do + damage be factored in, whether the round is innately more damaging, or from a class ability (Weapon Specialization)? (2d6+1, 2d8+2, etc)
---
ed_209a, you should really consolidate the rules together into a single post, in an easy to read format (not that I think your typing is sloppy, but some of the numbers are all over the place) so we can test this with a variety of PCs, firearms, armors and distances.
Where is the dan wesson 445Supermag to go with the 357Max?
And as usual, the 35Rem gets no respect.
hmmm, where is my little Canuck friend with the ammo hiding....
Ahhh, here's my Bofors Gal & some of the heavier calibers for MongoGuns
---
Ah, here's one of those 14.5mm guns i've heard about.
Russian?
Range increment can handle damage reductions. A .50 BMG @ 2000 meters has roughly the same energy as a .44 Magnum at the muzzle. That's squarely in 2d8 territory.
I'd say that, other than shotguns, a weapon should take a -1 to damage for every three range increments after the first.
So, at the fourth RI, it's -1 damage. At the 7th, it's -2 damage. At the 10th and final increment, it's -3 damage. This also takes into account the fact that rifle ammo holds velocity better than pistol ammo.
That is pretty good, but it still has the problem that both accuracy and range are lumped into one category. If you want to be more specific... Hmm, I am not sure what I would do, without putting too much detail in it, as you couldn't just give every caliber a certain range increment before losing damage, as the difference in power between a 5.56 coming from one of those extremely short sub 10" uppers and one coming from a 24" upper would be very noticeable, where as a high quality 24 and a low quality 24 would have pretty much the same power, but one might be far less accurate.
Honestly, I don't know what to do about it, it is 6:15, I am incomprehensible to myself, maybe I can think of a solution later, but feel free to give any feedback or suggestions.
Why though? These boards don't hold topics for long anyways unless bumped - better to consolidate them in one thread, rather than two.
I made the new thread because we haven't talked about the FN 5-7 for a while now. Also, a more general thread title might bring in people where the "Can't win..." fails to trigger their curiosity. I also wanted a place where a guy can post "what is rifling?" and not feel like he will be called a "|\|00B!!1!".
ed_209a, you should really consolidate the rules together into a single post, in an easy to read format (not that I think your typing is sloppy, but some of the numbers are all over the place) so we can test this with a variety of PCs, firearms, armors and distances.
OK. I will pull all the posts and clean them up.
[Eeek! 7 pages pre-edit!]
Just don't call it a manifesto. ;)
That is pretty good, but it still has the problem that both accuracy and range are lumped into one category. If you want to be more specific... Hmm, I am not sure what I would do, without putting too much detail in it, as you couldn't just give every caliber a certain range increment before losing damage, as the difference in power between a 5.56 coming from one of those extremely short sub 10" uppers and one coming from a 24" upper would be very noticeable, where as a high quality 24 and a low quality 24 would have pretty much the same power, but one might be far less accurate.
Honestly, I don't know what to do about it, it is 6:15, I am incomprehensible to myself, maybe I can think of a solution later, but feel free to give any feedback or suggestions.
That's easy. A 11.5" (or shorter) barrel counts as already having travelled two range increments for the purposes of damage. Thus, it only gets 8 range increments, and anything past its first range increment incurs a penalty to damage. Barrels between 11.5" and 16" (i.e. the M4) have a one RI penalty. Barrels between 16" and 20" perform normally. 24" barrels might get a free range increment.
As for the difference in quality, that's what mastercraft is for. The bullet's going to travel the same distance, because it's the same barrel length with the same bullet and powder charge, but one rifle will be more likely to put the round where it's intended to strike. Sounds like a simple to-hit bonus mechanic to me.
Air resistance doesn't care if you use a scope or have Far Shot.
Perhaps match it to absolute range? So that whether 2000m is 16 RIs or 8, you still do 2d8 not 2d12.
In our case of the MacMillan being in position aid firing at a target 2,000 meters away, is that not only is there a very large penalty to accuracy, but the bullet will not reach that distance in one round. The timeframe for a bullet to travel 2,000 meters fired from the MacMillan is 12 seconds. That's more than enough time for the target to have just miraculously moved out of the way. Granted the round will still hit long long LONG before they even have a hope of hearing the boom, but my point has been made. There's a cap to effective range, because outside of that, you're pretty much praying for a miracle. Yes, there are kill shots, even head shots, at 2,000 meters, but that is entirely besides the point, and let us please remember the whole context, that these are quite miraculous shots.
Thankyou, that is all.
Considering the weapon's range increment is 2/3 of it's maximum effective range (as a Bullet Points article once stated), Far Shot is a feat to help acheive the maximum range. There's also the Sniper prestige class with Improved Far Shot - a class feature which elevates the PC into the status of legendary marksmen and snipers.
Add on a scope (which I think stacks) or the telescopic scope (+2, +4 or +6 beyond 50 feet), a Mastercrafted rifle and you have a very good sharpshooter.
Well, Far Shot isn't a feat that magically makes a rifle shoot farther, a pistol more accurate, or a hatchet fly faster - I look it as a combination of breathing techniques, compensating for environmental factors like wind, a moving target, etc, and being able to coax said projectile into hitting the vitals of whatever they're aiming at beyond most relatively untrained shooters.
I agree. Far Shot has nothing to do with the rifle. It is the ability to be unusually motionless while pulling a trigger. It' s the ability to pull that trigger so that the round goes off between breaths, or even heartbeats.
well I would think another reason Wizards keep the range increments indicative of Effective range versus Maximum range, is that the aforementioned case of a .50BMG Rifle, in this case I'll just go off the shoulder and use the MacMillan Tac-50 as an example, a nice bolt-action full-round-power weapon, unlike a Barret 82 gas-operated power-leeching rifle.
In our case of the MacMillan being in position aid firing at a target 2,000 meters away, is that not only is there a very large penalty to accuracy, but the bullet will not reach that distance in one round. The timeframe for a bullet to travel 2,000 meters fired from the MacMillan is 12 seconds. That's more than enough time for the target to have just miraculously moved out of the way. Granted the round will still hit long long LONG before they even have a hope of hearing the boom, but my point has been made. There's a cap to effective range, because outside of that, you're pretty much praying for a miracle. Yes, there are kill shots, even head shots, at 2,000 meters, but that is entirely besides the point, and let us please remember the whole context, that these are quite miraculous shots.
Thankyou, that is all.
Given that the .50 BMG leaves the barrel at over 2700 FPS, I'd say it would cover that distance in far less than 12 seconds. Hathcock mentions a 3-4 second delay between firing and bullet strike @ 2000 meters.
Barret 82 is not gas operated, it is a non-power-leaching Recoil operated action... instead of trading some gas pressure for cycling, it trades some shoulder crushing recoil for making the gun cyclye.
Johannixx, who is Hathcock?
uh...
Barret 82 is not gas operated, it is a non-power-leaching Recoil operated action... instead of trading some gas pressure for cycling, it trades some shoulder crushing recoil for making the gun cyclye.
Aww, but I like getting my shoulder dislocated in combat.
I think I agree with Raigitsu in that the far shot skill is at least partially the skills for above average shooting technique, I also think that dead shot would be the form of that which takes more time, and might include compensating for wind, as I don't know about you, and pretty much everyone else in this conversation is more accomplished with firearms than I am, but if someone is shooting at me, I am running for cover, and firing back, I am not going to have time to calculate windspeed. I could see timing your shot so that you fire at the end of a step, when you aren't bobbing, or compensating for your movement, but not windspeed.
The sniper PrC does add to both far shot and dead shot, as well as negating cover, retaking a shot with a bonus, and the ability to make an attempt at an instant critical, which really does fit the flavor of the long-range sharpshooter, and while it may not work to play a sniper in the conventional sense (sneak up on a position for several days, take one shot, sneak out), it does work well for a designated marksman or police sniper.
Hmm. I just had an idea for an item. Shot logbook? Or whatever you call it, for if someone actually managed to play as a real sniper rather than marksman, the shot takes even longer, but you get a bonus to hit?
As for the difference in quality, that's what mastercraft is for
Should there be an anti-mastercraft, or something like that? For the exceptionally low-quality items, like beat-up AKs that were put together with way out-of-spec parts and haven't been maintained for the past few years, or even decades.
Edit: Hathcock was a sniper in vietnam, one of the famous ones.
I think I agree with Raigitsu in that the far shot skill is at least partially the skills for above average shooting technique, I also think that dead shot would be the form of that which takes more time, and might include compensating for wind, as I don't know about you, and pretty much everyone else in this conversation is more accomplished with firearms than I am, but if someone is shooting at me, I am running for cover, and firing back, I am not going to have time to calculate windspeed. I could see timing your shot so that you fire at the end of a step, when you aren't bobbing, or compensating for your movement, but not windspeed.
As for how I believe Far Shot works - it could be any one of them, or all of them. Perhaps it's instinctual, or a method that's picked up from training. I was merely explaining the ways I see the feat thematically. And, of course, it largely depends on how your PC uses weapons (is he a machinegunner
, a twin pistol desperado, a woodsman living by the bow, a seasoned sniper, or a combination?) and how he changes through leveling up.The sniper PrC does add to both far shot and dead shot, as well as negating cover, retaking a shot with a bonus, and the ability to make an attempt at an instant critical, which really does fit the flavor of the long-range sharpshooter, and while it may not work to play a sniper in the conventional sense (sneak up on a position for several days, take one shot, sneak out), it does work well for a designated marksman or police sniper.
You're right - I imagine those types have Tough Hero levels and/or Dedicated Hero levels with Endurance for sure, and many ranks in Concentration (in my games, I added Concentration to the Dedicated Hero skill list - it fits) Finally, a level or two of Infiltrator
(but just 1-2, any more may be too much of a BAB hit) adds flavor to achieve that image.Shot logbook?
Ha, I saw that in Shooter. :P Looked very complicated in the short time it was on screen. Mechanically, you could have it based off of Knowledge (Tactics) and Spot? Also, the Smart Hero Plan talent might grant a synergy bonus.
On "anti-mastercraft", there's a gadget modification (flaw) in d20 Future Tech that reduces the accuracy of a weapon in exchange for a lower purchase DC. (-1 to hit, -2 to PDC) Additionally, it stacks. It's worth a look if the PCs are digging for AKs in a wartorn country.
Oh, and what is Dead Shot? Do you mean Dead Aim?
And yes, I thought of that from shooter, good movie, but the weapon instructor in the extra features annoyed me, claiming that an M4 is a SMG and that a .408 chey-tac would cause a human body to explode, sending parts 200 feet away when shot from about 2000 yards. Just proves that you don't have to actually know all that much about guns to be good at shooting them.
The flaw sounds like a good gadget to use as the low-end weapons.
1) With very little experience, I, too, can learn how to handle a Remington 700P in a matter of moments by shooting at watermelons.
2) The most wanted man in America can use sunglasses and a hat as an effective form of disguise and is freely able to buy napalm, no questions asked.
3) Pipe bombs have a 15 foot kill radius.
4) Nobody else can have the same tactical skills as a gunnery sergeant.
5) Evil US senators keep "1-800-HENCHMEN" on speed dial.
6) If your combat buddy talks about his girlfriend/wife, he will die.
7) Attack dogs are easily fooled into attacking their handlers.
8) If a man kills your dog and you bury him in a hill, the local sheriff will be totally understanding about it.
9) A car wash lasts a few minutes, but ten or so minutes when treating wounds.
10) Flashbacks that conveniently happen in the middle of battle in no way hinder you from completing your mission, but will inspire you to new heights.
11) Government agencies use Google Maps.
12) Overweight cops make poor assassins.
13) Before you kill yourself, remember to tell you enemy everything he needs to know.
14) Wal-Mart has all the essentials to wage guerilla warfare.
15) The best way to find out if there is a burglar in your house is to shout "Hello?"
16) Old men in the woods are better sources of knowledge than Wikipedia.
17) If you're being hunted by every law-enforcment organization in the country, a great disguise is a cap, hooded jacket and Eagles coat. Leaning against walls and acting as suspicious as possible helps too.
18) Apparently Swagger was in that tub, too, when Biff Tannen watched "A Fistful Of Dollars".
19) A .22 rifle with water bottle makes a fine sniper's weapon.
20) Sometimes Wild West justice is what we really need.
And on the dog note, I am pretty sure that in a good amount of places, it is legal to use lethal force to defend an animal, the burying him behind the house bit might not go over so well in most places, but seems like where he lived things were a slight bit more old-fashioned.
Another thing that had me scratching my head is how he had a super fast internet connection out in the middle of a forest.
As for the Sniper's Journal, or Shot Logbook as referred to, it's most likely also written in your shooter's shorthand, since these notations are normally made In the field, and thus the intent is to write the information of the shot as quickly as possible. I dare say, anybody wishing to get information out of it might require things like Decipher Script as well, to figure out the system of the man's shorthand, as it inevitably makes sense to the shooter, as he devised it, but to few others at first glance.
And hey, pipe bombs can get a 15' radius, if you know what you're doing. Extra Oxidizer can really add that extra boom to a pipebomb when you add them in. Sure, people don't understand about fertilizer... it's really just the Ammonium Nitrate you want, because it makes the combustion go hotter and faster, generating more pressure inside the charge prior to critical pressure, also known as detonation. Without a good solid container, most explosives are just cute burny things.
Side note - love the list. *writes down 1-800-henchmen for later use somewhere*
I scanned Weapons Locker, but no luck. Names/details and ideas for stats (asides from 2d4 damage, that's a given) would be great.
2d4 damage, 40' range increment, RoF S, Magazine 10[Box] (though 30-round mags and larger are available on the secondary market), purchase DC would be fairly small (the guns run for less than $300 most places).
Ruger 10/22
American .22 Target Rifle
Damage: 2d4
Critical: 20
Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 40 ft
Rate of Fire: S
Magazine: 10 Box
Size: Large
Weight: 5.75 lb (6 lb)
Purchase DC: 13
Restriction: Lic (+1)
---
Looks good Johannixx?
I imagine the customized ones (non Mastercraft though) would add +1 or +2 to the PDC.By the way, what is .22 WMR?
---
Just? That was over 2 months ago!
I see some real life numbers, but no formula to convert them to damage. Though it does look close to 5.7mm...
Perhaps 2d4+1?
It is excellent for training. All the procedures you need to learn with a larger caliber apply to the 10/22, it's cheap, the ammo is cheap, low recoil, low noise.
Because of all the aftermarket parts, you can fit it out for many different training tasks.
The 10/22 in the above pic could likely produce a 1/2" group at 50m, which would be good enough for early sniper training.
Slap a different stock, shorter barrel and a larger magazine, and you can train CQB with it.
It's a lot of fun too. I have one.
This is what they look like when you buy one:
This is what you can do with them:
"Krinker-plinker", done up to look like an AKSU-74 "Krinkov" carbine:
You can also dress one up to look like an MG-42:
Neat, eh? The 10/22 is a decent gun, but for whatever reason, I never shoot mine. I vastly prefer my little Chinese-made G-33/40 Mauser .22 trainer.
Is there an automatic .22 weapon? :lightbulb
There are also conversion kits available for the 10/22.
Lets not forget the tubefeeds like the Marlin60 or the many .22 bolt guns.
Them bolt .22s are plenty accurate.
There is also the new & popular .17HRM (.17HMR for realism buffs) for hitting small things at moderate range.
The more you know...:whatsthis
you know... the irony of things... I was looking along down the list of bullets, and I realized... there's another round missing on the Ballistics Damage table... the 9x39mm Russian Subsonic round, used in the A-91 Compact Carbine, the AS "Val" Suppressed Assault Rifle, the SR-3 "Vikhr" Short Assault Rifle, and the VSS "Vintorez" Suppressed Selective Fire Sniper Rifle.
Is anyone actually using those weapons, or did they go the way of the dodo?
The marlin model 60 would be even less expensive, I am looking into one, and you can find them used easily for <$100, and I think new they are still only $130 or so. Good accuracy too, I think it is the kind of rifling they use.
2 weights for 40
...
Why didnt 45acp get 1000fps 185jhp shown?
and where is the 10mm non-FBI ?
---
I looked over that 9x39mm round you mentioned, Sauragnmon
With it being subsonic and near in power to an SKS round, i'd make it 2d8-1 with +1 to hit versus armored targets (+2 if you use rifle rounds as better penetrators) Finally, have anyone nearby make a Listen check close to DC 15 to pick up on the sound of it firing.
Not sure about the PDC though (Mil?), but the rarity will affect it.
they were looking at 9mm 147subsonic and at 45acp 185 almost sonic,
so they developed a weaker 10mm 180gr 980fps (subsonic)
the 10mm FBI Load
Real 10mm 180gr 1200-1300fps
FBI 10mm 180gr 980fps
then Smith & wesson said
Hey, you want a weak 10mm? We have that in a cheaper weaker gun called the 40SW that can max out the same .4" 180gr slug at the weak FBI load specs.
10mm Full 1300fps from 10x25mm brass
10mm FBI 1000pfs from 10x25mm brass
40sw Full 1000fps from 10x21mm brass
presto- the weak 10mm FBI Load was replaced by the carboncopy 40sw standard in a slightly shorter brass at a lower pressure
For consideration in the gel pic just posted, imagine the 40sw 180gr @1000 exact same slug put in the 10mm @1250-1300.... 25-30% hotter before custom HOT loads
Non-FBI 10mm means real 10mm full power, not the weakened 10mm FBI Load powderpuff twin of 40sw (Short & Weak).
At least you get to live on in d20 Modern.
you know... the irony of things... I was looking along down the list of bullets, and I realized... there's another round missing on the Ballistics Damage table... the 9x39mm Russian Subsonic round, used in the A-91 Compact Carbine, the AS "Val" Suppressed Assault Rifle, the SR-3 "Vikhr" Short Assault Rifle, and the VSS "Vintorez" Suppressed Selective Fire Sniper Rifle.
I would use the statline of the .300 Whisper and call it a day. If my players were that interested in the modeling the differences between the Whisper and the 9x39mm, we would probably be playing GURPS, not D20M.
I would use the statline of the .300 Whisper and call it a day. If my players were that interested in the modeling the differences between the Whisper and the 9x39mm, we would probably be playing GURPS, not D20M.
I'd like to see what that 9x39mm round does in ballistic gelatin. Heck, I'd like to see what .300 Whisper does. I know the Whisper's hell on deer if you headshoot them. Works like a charm in the middle of the night... and it's legal, if you have crop damage permits ;)
wouldnt that fit somewhere in the scale of
357mag - 357Max - 35rem ?
I've been touting a wildcat like the 7mmTCU or 30TCU but make 9mmTCU (9x45) as a new no-shoulder 9Carbine for M4's for a while... seems the idea is great when others do it subsonic, why not crank up the dial & go full steam with it? Load it from 85gr (~380) to 200gr(~35rem) for superfast all the way down to bowlingball.
Or for that matter, just load the 35rem to what you want, fast or slow. I used to cram the 125jsp & 158swc (I had for 357mag) into my 35rem brass for econo-shooting
I would use the statline of the .300 Whisper and call it a day. If my players were that interested in the modeling the differences between the Whisper and the 9x39mm, we would probably be playing GURPS, not D20M.
Well, between guns and ammo, there are differences beyond just damage, like chance to hit versus armor, whether or not it's quieter, etc.
Or did you have something else in mind with the GURPS comparison? ;)
uh...
Barret 82 is not gas operated, it is a non-power-leaching Recoil operated action... instead of trading some gas pressure for cycling, it trades some shoulder crushing recoil for making the gun cyclye.
.....and it's a wet dream to shoot! The recoil is on par with (or less than) a bolt action 30.06! Moreover it generates sub MOA (minute of angle or 1" groups at 100 Meters) out of the box.
SIGARMS GSR
American .45 Single-Action Autoloader Pistol
Damage: 2d6+1
Critical: 20
Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 30 ft
Rate of Fire: S
Magazine: 7 Box
Size: Small
Weight: 4 lb
Purchase DC: 18
Restriction: Lic (+1)
d20 Modern Rules: Due to it's high quality of manufacture, this weapon is always considered a mastercraft weapon. As such, it grants a +1 bonus on attack rolls.
---
The Granite Series pistols are appropriately named because they are designed and built in New Hampshire independently of SIG Sauer.
More information can be found here and here.
---
So, what should the PDC be? I based this off of the Colt M1911A1 Custom Models out of Weapons Locker.
Should the PDC be 18 or 19?
I'd say 18.
This looks like a Walther P99, but I can't be sure. Anyone know?
Nice visual proof that plastic-framed guns do indeed show up on X-rays.
Either a Walther P99 or that joint S&W/Walther S&W99.
Nice visual proof that plastic-framed guns do indeed show up on X-rays.
Die Hard 2 did contribute a significant amount to that myth. :raincloud
Thanks for the identification!
Die Hard 2 did contribute a significant amount to that myth. :raincloud
Interestingly enough the guy who provided the gun props begged the director to not use that line in the movie, because it was stupid and not true at all. Obviously, no one listened to him.
Anyways, that's good to hear someone was aware of the facts. Where did you learn of it, narukagami?
Anyways, that's good to hear someone was aware of the facts. Where did you learn of it, narukagami?
Random movie trivia I picked up somewhere. May have been IMDB or some TV special... not 100% sure where exactly. :P
Since Armor with HP went so well, here's another house-rule discussion:
---
A player asked me yesterday if there was an increased DC on the Reflex save to take half damage from Autofire...if the weapon in question has a higher Rate of Fire.
There were a few attempts at this on another thread, but the results were all over the place and no general consensus on a stable set of rules was met.
So, what do you think would work well? I may need it if the players use a GE Minigun or similar high RoF weaponry.
[INDENT]Minigun (7.62 Machine Gun)
Originally created for use in the Vietnam War, the minigun is a powerful machine gun that uses a rotating barrel capable of firing thousands of rounds per minute. The minigun uses slightly different rules for autofire. When firing a minigun, you target a 20-foot-by-20-foot area (regular autofire rules target a 10-foot-by-10-foot area). Creatures inside this area must make a Reflex save (DC 20) for half damage. Firing a minigun on autofire uses 100 rounds of ammunition, or 50 rounds if used with the Burst Fire feat.[/INDENT]
they have raised the damage by 2 dice (or x2 damage)
Range Inc goes up to 150
they have raised the area by +10x+10 (or 4x area)
they have raised the save to DC20 (or +5DC)
they raised the ammo used in autofire to 100 (or x10 ammo)
so if we have a minigun doing 6 or 7 thousand rpm spending 100 ammo for that, we could see that a high ROF machinegun with 2000rpm would spend about 1/3 of that for about 1/3 the gains. And a standard 600-700 rpm machinegun would fire 1/10th the ammo (per RAW) and do raw effects
Or maybe it was arbitrary on their part...
I believe machine pistols tend to have a high rate of fire, not sure precisely why.
A MAC-10 has 1145 or 1090 RPM, for the .45 and 9x19 respectively.
MAC-11 has 1200, firing .380 ACP
Skorpion has 850, .32 ACP, don't know the RoF for 9mm mak or .380.
The TMP has 800-900, firing 9x19
1200 for a glock 18, theoretically.
I believe machine pistols tend to have a high rate of fire, not sure precisely why.
It is because they have such lightweight bolts. Not as much inertia to overcome to get it moving.
The Uzi line fires faster as it gets smaller. 800/1000/1200 for the full/mini/micro, I believe
Lets take the Minigun area increase & RI boost out of the picture.
That leaves the Autofire 6000rpm gun putting 25 slugs into a 10x10'
4d10 (+2dice over a ~600rpm gun)
DC20 (+5DC over 600rpm gun)
Get your graph paper out,
plot a line from (6,2) to (60,4) and that is the DamageDice function for X00rpm.
If your gun has 800rpm, slide over to 8 and up to.... uh, 2.07, so your gun 800rpm gun does 2.07 dice damage. If you have a 1200rpm gun it would do 2.22 Dice damage.
This is of course using theoretical 6000rpm,
we could easily say we want to use a more sane 3000rpm as the base Minigun rate. Just drop the plotted line down to (6,2) --> (30,4) and slide over to see a 1000rpm does 2.3 dice
Same thing doe the DC, plot from (6,15) to (30,20)
and your 1000rpm gun would get DC 15.83
What's the RoF of the M2HB? Either way I assume the DC has got to go up.
from the Menace Manual Exerpt on Blackhawks
[INDENT]Minigun (7.62 Machine Gun)
Originally created for use in the Vietnam War, the minigun is a powerful machine gun that uses a rotating barrel capable of firing thousands of rounds per minute. The minigun uses slightly different rules for autofire. When firing a minigun, you target a 20-foot-by-20-foot area (regular autofire rules target a 10-foot-by-10-foot area). Creatures inside this area must make a Reflex save (DC 20) for half damage. Firing a minigun on autofire uses 100 rounds of ammunition, or 50 rounds if used with the Burst Fire feat.[/INDENT]
they have raised the damage by 2 dice (or x2 damage)
Range Inc goes up to 150
they have raised the area by +10x+10 (or 4x area)
they have raised the save to DC20 (or +5DC)
they raised the ammo used in autofire to 100 (or x10 ammo)
so if we have a minigun doing 6 or 7 thousand rpm spending 100 ammo for that, we could see that a high ROF machinegun with 2000rpm would spend about 1/3 of that for about 1/3 the gains. And a standard 600-700 rpm machinegun would fire 1/10th the ammo (per RAW) and do raw effects
Bitter Thorn, is that Dragon Man's range? I was there for the 9/11 machinegun shoot in 2005. Most excellent!
Holy crap! That's precisely where these pics are from! I'll PM you!
Decimal saves? Jeeze, i've never heard of those.
What's the RoF of the M2HB? Either way I assume the DC has got to go up.
the decimal save DC only comes into play if you roll the integer part. If you need to make a DC15.83 and you get a 22 on your roll, you pass. If you get 12 on your roll you fail. If you get 15 on your roll, you roll the percentile to beat the 83 or not.
Or you can do like we do and just round it to DC16
It doesnt matter what caliber the autofire is, a 600rpm gun will have a DC of 15, whether it is 9mm, 223, 308, 45, 50, 20mm.... it doesnt matter what size the 10 bullets in the 10x10 area are.
the M2 50bmg vanilla version has a ROF of 550 (FAS.org)
Alright, then from what i've read so far (in lieu of the decimal saves...i'll leave those to the heavy number crunchers ;)), the Glock 18 and Micro-Uzi (Weapons Locker) would have a higher DC than the M2HB, putting them somewhere around 17 or 18....
?While we're at it, it seems like the hitting the same Defense of 10 on Autofire would be greater beyond just the range increment of machine pistols and machine gun (without a stock, it's harder to steady a Beretta 93r, for example)
Decimal saves? Jeeze, i've never heard of those.
What's the RoF of the M2HB? Either way I assume the DC has got to go up.
450-600, likely has to do with the heavy bolt? And really, if the 10 shots of .50 in the first second aren't going to do the job, you might want to look into something bigger, unless you are dogfighting or something, in which you would usually have 4 of them, right?
I use the 2d20 version of .50 BMG, but it seems like everything keeps making the DC 15 save past level 6...
So I gather that at higher levels, say 10+, autofire and MDT tend to be less relavent.
Alright, then from what i've read so far (in lieu of the decimal saves...i'll leave those to the heavy number crunchers ;)), the Glock 18 and Micro-Uzi (Weapons Locker) would have a higher DC than the M2HB, putting them somewhere around 17 or 18....
While we're at it, it seems like the hitting the same Defense of 10 on Autofire would be greater beyond just the range increment of machine pistols and machine gun (without a stock, it's harder to steady a Beretta 93r, for example)
Alright, then from what i've read so far (in lieu of the decimal saves...i'll leave those to the heavy number crunchers ), the Glock 18 and Micro-Uzi (Weapons Locker) would have a higher DC than the M2HB, putting them somewhere around 17 or 18....
uh, no
putting it somewhere between 15.8 and 16.4..... that aint 17 & 18, it is DC16
if you want DC17 get up above 1500rpm because of the gimp the Minigun put on DCs. Or fix the Minigun Gimp like you fixed the 50BMG damage cap gimp
So I gather that at higher levels, say 10+, autofire and MDT tend to be less relavent.
At level ~3+ RAW autofire becomes completely irrelevant, then at ~5+ MDT becomes irrelevant.
Blood and Guts, a 3rd party military adventures supplement, had an interesting autofire alternate that actually got better as you leveled. For every 10 rounds you expend, you get an extra attack at -10 penalty that you can aim at any target in a 10ft by 10ft area. Advanced Firearms Prof, and a new chain of feats that comes after it, decreases the penalty and amount of ammo you have to expend to get extra attacks.
I haven't gotten a chance to playtest that rule, but it seems like an interesting alternative.
bittern thorn, check your PMs.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=956407
I suppose my reasoning is that those designing the initial table accounted for the ammunition types in the Core Rulebook while adding on a few for variety, or, more likely, personal favorites.
It's true that multiple dice have been used before - some people are in favor of 9mm and similarly damaged rounds using 3d4 instead of 2d6. I tend to like die rolls that produce max damage more easily, but I can see their reasoning for wanting a better average.
In any case, I am wondering at what the Abram's main cannon would do.
and look at how many HP that is.
The real cannon scale of how many mm of RHA punched thru cant be used, because we have a little problem of steel getting 30HP per inch and tanks have 4-6 inches these days.... meaning a reliable 400mm-punch cannon would have to on average do a few hundred damage. The abrams would do an insane amount.
So instead look at what creature the Abrams120 can reliably kill, say like a Tough 10 char with 16Con wont reliably be killed outright from 10d12 to the chest so maybe we need more damage from that 5" cannon.
Didnt Tema just do a thread on cannons in the PAST forum?
Edit -> I just checked, it turns out the first models (M1A1) came out in 1979. Oh well
Alright, then from what i've read so far (in lieu of the decimal saves...i'll leave those to the heavy number crunchers ;)), the Glock 18 and Micro-Uzi (Weapons Locker) would have a higher DC than the M2HB, putting them somewhere around 17 or 18....
This is outside my jurisdiction.
While we're at it, it seems like the hitting the same Defense of 10 on Autofire would be greater beyond just the range increment of machine pistols and machine gun (without a stock, it's harder to steady a Beretta 93r, for example)
This makes sense to me, although the range increment rules might have to be fine-tuned for this to work properly.
if there was errata, this would soooooo be in it.
It has been generally accepted on the board that the MM Blackhawk version of the Minigun (7.62 m134) is A) Better , B) Publicly available/published.
I've done this before somewheres-
Take a AR/LMG and we say a guy can keep all 10 bullets in a 10x10 area out 500' away. This is not addressing where that 10x10 is with the tohit roll, but the control of the sweep to be just 10' wide at 500'. To the math enlightened, we could say that it is an arc of fire 10' across at 500', giving about 1.15 degrees of sweep.
Now do that same arc of fire (1.15deg) on a target 25' away and a funny thing happens: The sweep is just 6" across for all 10 bullets on the target. So why do w need BurstFire Feat to get more slugs on target if we already can keep all 10 slugs in a 6" wide line? Do it at 10' with a 30cal and you get a continuous line of hole 3" wide.
Welcome to the 30' Buzzsaw baby! You're cut in half!
I'm looking for a house rule to scale the DC. I'm not a bog fan of hosing down an area, but it seems like a seasoned SAW gunner should be more effective than a random thug in a drive by.
Your ability to focus on the target with an area effect attack is contra-logical. BurstFire feat is required to be so good with fullauto fire that you can focus a blast onto one target, getting more shot density on that target to have multiple strikes on the point target.
Back in the day, we used the terms Point Target and Area Target.
Autofire is area, Burstfire is Point. In an area attack, it is just that: saturate an area to give all targets a slice of the pie... the pie being some lead poisoning.
But if you are willing to concentrate the 10 bullet Autofire as a sweep on 1 identified point target to the detriment of secondary targets.....
ok, sounds like fun Houserule, lets roll with it.
Targeted Autofire
A 10 bullet Autofire sweep on a single target, with a higher SaveDC in lieu of area effect. Only the declared target can be affected, there are no secondary stikes nor other targets affected. Shooter may add +1DC to the Autofire save for each +2BAB of the shooter.
ok, I threw that out there, what do yall think of it?
Ahh, but that is the problem with a declared area Autofire.
Your ability to focus on the target with an area effect attack is contra-logical. BurstFire feat is required to be so good with fullauto fire that you can focus a blast onto one target, getting more shot density on that target to have multiple strikes on the point target.
Back in the day, we used the terms Point Target and Area Target.
Autofire is area, Burstfire is Point. In an area attack, it is just that: saturate an area to give all targets a slice of the pie... the pie being some lead poisoning.
But if you are willing to concentrate the 10 bullet Autofire as a sweep on 1 identified point target to the detriment of secondary targets.....
ok, sounds like fun Houserule, lets roll with it.
Targeted Autofire
A 10 bullet Autofire sweep on a single target, with a higher SaveDC in lieu of area effect. Only the declared target can be affected, there are no secondary stikes nor other targets affected. Shooter may add +1DC to the Autofire save for each +2BAB of the shooter.
ok, I threw that out there, what do yall think of it?
If just a rule that any noob can do, then no adjusted base DC.
If done as a feat, Req: FirearmProf, AdvFireProf(autofire)
Maybe even add WeaponFocus in the gun doing it. If you wanted to raise the starting DC: If a guy has to have a list of feats to get it he will be a level or 2 up the food chain.
I kinda like the idea that it is just a thing you get better at.
Noobs will be DC15 but you get DC16 not too long, and the better you get the better you get.
If you're interested in making your targets easier to hit, there's also Tracer rounds
Tracer
These phosphorous-coated rounds aid the shooter of an automatic weapon in leading bullets to a target, but makes them easier to spot in turn. Tracer ammunition provides a +1 bonus to attack rolls made with a weapon when fired on autofire only. Opponents gain a +5 circumstance bonus on Spot checks when trying to find someone firing tracer ammunition.
---
As for your idea, backstabbist, adding Weapon Focus wouldn't make it too unbalanced. The former two feats are practically a given anyways...
It might even be a great idea for a Feat synergy.
Sometimes I think they dont read what they want to put to print before it is printed
While this Targeted Autofire would be no problem for Machinegun Joe, my Smart classed guys would still have fits trying to get a stab at it
But a +1 to hit when you only need strike AC 10 is pretty pointless, especially at higher levels.
Granted, but it's a godsend for lower BAB/Dex characters, when you're using a heavy machinegun without Exotic Firearms Proficiency and/or when you're trying to hit 8-10 range increments away.
---
On top of that, I had a house-rule I used a while back...characters that hit a higher number than the target's Defense add a slight bonus to damage.
Consider this -> If you hit the Defense 15 target with an attack roll of 16, wouldn't rolling a 24 or so mean you are more likely to hit a vital area?
I never used it again, but I may consider it in the future.
I'm still trying to figure if it should be a Feat or just a rule.
If just a rule that any noob can do, then no adjusted base DC.
If done as a feat, Req: FirearmProf, AdvFireProf(autofire)
Maybe even add WeaponFocus in the gun doing it. If you wanted to raise the starting DC: If a guy has to have a list of feats to get it he will be a level or 2 up the food chain.
I kinda like the idea that it is just a thing you get better at.
Noobs will be DC15 but you get DC16 not too long, and the better you get the better you get.
Granted, but it's a godsend for lower BAB/Dex characters, when you're using a heavy machinegun without Exotic Firearms Proficiency and/or when you're trying to hit 8-10 range increments away.
---
On top of that, I had a house-rule I used a while back...characters that hit a higher number than the target's Defense add a slight bonus to damage.
Consider this -> If you hit the Defense 15 target with an attack roll of 16, wouldn't rolling a 24 or so mean you are more likely to hit a vital area?
I never used it again, but I may consider it in the future.
B) The Advanced Firearms Prof feat only eliminates the -4 for taking an Autofire Attack. Any mook can make the -4 Autofire attack without the feat. So (IMO) said mook should get better at getting the slugs concentrated on the guy he wants dead as he gets better at shooting (BAB). So this could still be just a rule instead of a feat.
SO some guy taking an Autofire Attack (-4) with a non-proficient Exotic (-4) in the 9th RI (-16) and low Dex&BAB (net +0), just needs to roll a 34 or better to hit..... or just roll a 33 with tracers.
A question is on the wording
"to attack rolls made with a weapon when fired on autofire only"
to mean Autofire 10 Bullet Attack, or just a weapon cycling full auto.
What is that suposed to be a pic of? Navy guys gloating that they get to listen to rockin XM Radio in cool headphones while manning the guns? Or that guy needs to send his ammo back to quartermaster to get the tips repainted, I see some scuffed off on that 2nd round
---
But would the paint make a difference, other than perforating the enemy with shiny tips? :P
---
Though it's D&D, Complete Warrior has "combat manuevers" in the back that were based off of multiple feats, so his idea is not without merit.
---
Does any have any ideas for scaling the save perhaps based on the shooters BAB?
I'm looking for a house rule to scale the DC. I'm not a bog fan of hosing down an area, but it seems like a seasoned SAW gunner should be more effective than a random thug in a drive by.
How could I forget? I do have a custom rule, but it doesn't deal with the directly with the guns themselves.
Autofire is calculated differently here
15 + 1/2 Character Level + Dex Mod is how I let it work
With a Minimum DC of 15
So: a Level 10 Fast Hero with Dex 16 forces a save of DC 23 on those he fires upon.
It might be a bit high since i'm using Char level and not BAB, but when I get far enough, I can make a better assessment.
RAW has 3 modes of attack for an automatic weapon
Blast: No Feat. 5rnd standard hit & damage, just wasting 4 bullets
Autofire: 10rnd sweep at -4tohit, AREA target & Save DC, standard damage
BurstFire: Feats Required, -4ToHit, PointTarget, +2dice damage
So we can do normal, we can sweep for area attack instead of attacking one guy, or with a feat we can concentrate the fire for more damage at a -4 tohit. If we chose to just hose an area and leave it upto the saves for folks in the area we dont really get to concentrate on getting more bullets near the target since there are multiple targets. It is an area attack, you attack areas not people. 10 bullets in 10x10 = DC15 for them to wiggle between the slugs. If you want a higher area DC then increase the slug count or reduce the square feet affected.
If you want to aim at the guy, use BurstFire.
A high level SAW gunner will have 2 or 3 attacks to take 2 bursts at guys an still Autofire Sweep the driveby group, whereas the mook with an AK will just take his 1 Autofire at -4. If you want to take this to the next level, have the high level SAW gunner take 3 Autofire Sweeps: "Start rolling saves, I'll tell you when to stop"
-----
Well, it that is chinese ammo, that would be lead paint chipping off and the ammo would be under recall ;)
Hm, would you consider getting rid of Strafe (allows you to target a 5 x 20 ft area) and consolidating it under the rules?
Mozambique Drill
You know how to put your enemies down more efficently with small arms fire.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Point Blank Shot, Double Tap, BAB +6
Benefit: In a round where you successfully use the Double Tap feat against an enemy with a handgun, you gain a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls
Targeted AutoFire rev.B
Req: AdvFirearmProf
By focussing the automatic fire all around just one target, the odds of scoring a hit go up. Unlike BurstFire, that concentrates automatic fireon a target to do more damage, Targeted Autofire saturates around the target to help score a hit of normal damage.
Benefit: A shooter may make an Autofire attack on a point target rather than an area target. This mode of attack grants a +4 ToHit. Target is a single creature/object, and there is no Save when the attack roll hits the target's Defense. This +4 is cumulative with AdvFirarmProf negating the -4 for Autofire. Ammunition requiremets must still be met.
Normal: Autofire attacks are made at -4, AdvFireProf negates this penalty. Autofire attacks are against an area (Def10) not a object/person, and attack rolls that hit force saves on all in the area.
Using this, as guys go up in level & get insane Def & Evasion, a full auto sweep will help you hit without some save ruining it.
Dunno about the reqs and the value 4 for the bennefit.
Maybe have just the AFP req & use 1/3BAB for +ToHit value?
Maybe have just AFP & use +2 Tohit, Imp Targeted AF / Greater TAF for +4/+6
maybe even as a Talent Tree for some Marksman/Shooter class, combining special modes of using automatic weapons that get better bennefits with levels
dunno, what you guys think of this version?
Of course, it needs to be playtested, but asides from working on the flavor text and perhaps a relatively minor BAB requirement (2 to 4?), you have a solid foundation.
It might require another feat, but at least it helps balance against those that abuse Evasion.
Maybe have just the AFP req & use 1/3BAB for +ToHit value?
How exactly does it work?
One way to fiddle with it would be let folks have it at low levels (only req AdvFirearmProf ), and have it give a low +tohit that will get better with levels... such as granting CharLevel/3 or BAB/3 or BAB/2 or some other increasing ammount. At 3BAB you get a +1 for this feat, at 9BAB you get +3... ok, BAB/3 is too low, lets try BAB/2
At 4BAB this feat will let you take a 10bullet sweep at a guy with +2 Tohit (-4autofire, negated by AdvFireProf, +2 this feat) doing normal damage, no AoE save
At 8BAB this would grant +4, and so on like 13BAB has this feat grant +6 on Targeted Autofire 10bullets at 1 badguy for normal damage, no AoE save
Or we could just make it one of those things that are Basic +2, Improved +4, Greater +6 ... that way you have to keep buying feats in it to get better (not my favorite way to do things)
Yeah, I don't like that increasing feat idea either. If you decide to use it, make it optional, but keep the scaling tohit. The BAB/2 makes much more sense thematically and mechanically.
However, would this supercede Burst Fire, or merely be an addition and not replacement?
Blast: 5rnds, no reqs, no benefits, no penalties, 4ammo just wasted
Autofire: 10rnd, -4Tohit (feat negatable), Makes gun 10x10 AoE with DC15
BurstFire: 5rnd, Feat, -4Tohit, +2dice Damage
Targeted Autofire: 10rnd, Req AFP, +4 (or BAB/2??) tohit
So you can take a plain shot, an area attack, an extra damage attack, or extra +Tohit attack, when using a full auto gun
could take a Targeted Autofire.
I dont see how MachinePistol/SMG/AR/LMG/HMG/AC makes a difference in the d20 coarseness. If it has an A in the Rate of Fire column, & 10 ammo, it is good to go.
Do really mean HMGs, or are you wondering about Miniguns?
Since the minguns dont have rules as much as they have special stats, We would use the special stats that give 7.62 Minigun 4d10, and we could slap a +4 on the +toHit for the TargetedAutofire , and use the given 100ammo
Wouldn't the damage be significantly higher within the first range increment, because that's the point where the spread is at it's highest concentration? (100 rounds is more than 10, and if it's properly braced / mounted as it should be, well...)
I dont see how MachinePistol/SMG/AR/LMG/HMG/AC makes a difference in the d20 coarseness.
It doesn't. Since we're doing house-rules though, a little extra degree of variety wouldn't hurt.
BurstFire is the attempt to get all the bullets onto the guys chest. When you try so hard as to take a -4 to get as many bullets as ypu can to stay exectly center mass & have as many as you can hit the guy, for some reason it will always be just 2 bullets hit, 10' or 1100', just 2 bullets hit giving the +2dice damage.
That is when you are trying as hard as you can to get them all to stay exactly on cether target.
Autofire is getting them to spread across 10', whether the 10' is 30' away or 500, you have just enough control to spray 10' across. SOme would argue that if a guy can keep a sweep at just 10' when the target is 500' away, it would be easy to keep the sweep real tight & get more bullets on a guy just 30' away.
[INDENT]I've done this before somewheres-
Take a AR/LMG and we say a guy can keep all 10 bullets in a 10x10 area out 500' away. This is not addressing where that 10x10 is with the tohit roll, but the control of the sweep to be just 10' wide at 500'. To the math enlightened, we could say that it is an arc of fire 10' across at 500', giving about 1.15 degrees of sweep.
Now do that same arc of fire (1.15deg) on a target 25' away and a funny thing happens: The sweep is just 6" across for all 10 bullets on the target. So why do w need BurstFire Feat to get more slugs on target if we already can keep all 10 slugs in a 6" wide line? Do it at 10' with a 30cal and you get a continuous line of hole 3" wide.
Welcome to the 30' Buzzsaw baby! You're cut in half![/INDENT]
So it is illogical to say you will always get just 2 bullets to hit with a burstfire, be that target 500' or 30' away. No matter how close the target is, when you are trying to get all bullets to stay on center mass, only 2 will hit (+2dice).
But Targeted Autofire is not trying to get all bullets to stay exacly on center mass, it is hosing all over a guy.... a little in front & a little behind, a little high & a little low.... one of these will hit him if I spray his entire vicinity.
So the premiss that being closer when shooting a little higher & a little lower to cover all the bases, that it will somehow make more bullets hit aint right. Regardless of range, you put some in front, behind, above, below, & right at him.... one of these is bound to hit even if I misjudged windage or elevation. If the guy is kissing you, you still go all over to cover the bases.
I still dont understand your correlation of 50bmg/14mm/20mm HMG/AC with a minigun. a 20-25mm Autocannon has a ROF of maybe 300-600, the 57mm AC has a 220rpm, and there is a SuperRapid 3" AC that gets 120rpm
Since the generic AutoRifle gets 700-800, we could say
Tohit Bonus = BAB/2 x ROF/750
for a mechaic to give higher ROF guns more +Tohit and low ROF guns a penalty to this modifier. But for Miniguns, we already have them doing 2x damage in their stats for all the ammo the spend, and they really dont belong in the same group as the 57mm AutoCannon / 50bmg / Skorpion32
I've done this before somewheres-
Take a AR/LMG and we say a guy can keep all 10 bullets in a 10x10 area out 500' away. This is not addressing where that 10x10 is with the tohit roll, but the control of the sweep to be just 10' wide at 500'. To the math enlightened, we could say that it is an arc of fire 10' across at 500', giving about 1.15 degrees of sweep.
Now do that same arc of fire (1.15deg) on a target 25' away and a funny thing happens: The sweep is just 6" across for all 10 bullets on the target. So why do w need BurstFire Feat to get more slugs on target if we already can keep all 10 slugs in a 6" wide line? Do it at 10' with a 30cal and you get a continuous line of hole 3" wide.
Welcome to the 30' Buzzsaw baby! You're cut in half!
Disturbing.
Huh, i've never actually fired an automatic weapon of rifle size or larger before, so I can't comment on how it'd work.But it seems to me like Targeted Autofire is a little more precision and a little less accuracy compared to Burst Fire. Which i'm fine with, by the way.
I still dont understand your correlation of 50bmg/14mm/20mm HMG/AC with a minigun. a 20-25mm Autocannon has a ROF of maybe 300-600, the 57mm AC has a 220rpm, and there is a SuperRapid 3" AC that gets 120rpm
Since the generic AutoRifle gets 700-800, we could say
Tohit Bonus = BAB/2 x ROF/750
for a mechaic to give higher ROF guns more +Tohit and low ROF guns a penalty to this modifier. But for Miniguns, we already have them doing 2x damage in their stats for all the ammo the spend, and they really dont belong in the same group as the 57mm AutoCannon / 50bmg / Skorpion32
Is 7.62 the only caliber a minigun could take, in theory? And, is 750 a fairly arbitrary number, or does it have signifigance?
I like the notion of targeted auto fire, but I prefer approaches that minimize the need for new feats.
Off topic for a sec, bitter thorn
How's your character going?
Do you think, regardless of the caliber, the damage should go up within the first range increment?Off topic for a sec, bitter thornHow's your character going?
but the others are mechanics of trying to spread the bullets out.
Thorn-
If you want to do this as a Tallent, or just as a method of attack, it can fit that too. Simply adjust the req & Bonus to fit that scheme. I'd still like to see AdvFirearmProf as a req to perform it, but it actually really isnt needed just like it isnt needed to do a -4 Autofire unfeated. Use the +tohit Bonus as BAB/2 and presto.
[INDENT]Targeted Autofire (Combat Action)
Using 10 bullets of automatic fire the shooter gets a ToHit bonus of BAB/2 added to his attack roll. Ammo requirements are the same as AutoFire, as is the -4 tohit penalty when done without AdvFirearmProf, as well as any other weapon non-proficiency penalties.[/INDENT]
There you go.
No feats. No Reqs. No Problem
But it steps on the toes of the RAW 5rnd unfeated full auto Blast, slightly. Blast has no -4/feat penalty for no benefit, while this has penalties but also has benefits to hit.
I'm not trying to rewrite or undercut Burts Feat that does more damage, I'm trying to do something about the DexMonkeys with Evasion. Maybe now they will have a wee bit of respect for a guy with a g3/FAL/m14
Maybe if you wanted a featless boost to damage you could look at Concentrated Fire to give some penalties(-4 ontop auto -4?) for a +1 die damage unfeated
Blast : plain
Autofire: (-4/ AFP feat) areas
Burstfire: (-4 & BF Feat) +2dice
Targeted Autofire: (-4/ AFP feat) +Tohit
Concentrated Fire: (-4 & -4/AFPfeat) +1 die ???
Targeted Autofire (Combat Action)
Using 10 bullets of automatic fire the shooter gets a ToHit bonus of BAB/2 added to his attack roll. Ammo requirements are the same as AutoFire, as is the -4 tohit penalty when done without AdvFirearmProf, as well as any other weapon non-proficiency penalties.
Maybe a Base +1 and BAB/3?
dunno, but BAB/2 just feels too much for free.. maybe... what does the group think balance wise?
yeah, but I look at it more & see the BAB/2 as a little high for something any mook can do. What do you guys thing of saving the BAB/2 for this as a Talent/Feat and granting just BAB/3 for this done as a generic combat action?
Maybe a Base +1 and BAB/3?
dunno, but BAB/2 just feels too much for free.. maybe... what does the group think balance wise?
new full auto method of attack: Targeted Autofire
I tried to put all my relevant info there in quotes, but if you guys feel there is something you've said that would fit well (or just would like to see over there) go ahead & drop it in so all the new readers can see what we've been doing.
I would assume that halves round down. There aren't many full BAB classes, so you basic Tough 5 thug would still only get a +1 for this maneuver. If he is taking a -4 for no AFP it's still pretty tame. If he's had some military or other formal training and has AFP he's still only getting a +1 (+2 if said thug is Strong 5). This seems like a reasonable trade off for a group of 10 rounds to me.
And I suppose it also matters on how action-centric your game is.
Truthfully, I haven't played with a group that has more than one actual gun-owner in it (GM nonwithstanding) so I can't say whether or not using them has made things feel authentic - but the net result is that more power is put in the player's hands (which is rarely disliked)
I've never brought in house-rules to my campaigns mid-game, and therefore can't decide on whether or not it's a bad idea in general.
Funny thing - I read Spycraft 2.0 and realized that while more things are in statted out in painstaking detail - it's a bore to play when you have to keep track of so many things.
That's why this balance and careful integration of house-rules is something any GM going beyond the Core rulebook has to consider.
Beretta Px4 Storm
Italian 9mm Double-Action Autoloader Pistol
Damage: 2d6 (9mm), 2d6+1 (.40 S&W)
Critical: 20
Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 30 ft
Rate of Fire: S
Magazine: 17 Box (9mm), 14 Box (.40 S&W)
Size: Small
Weight: 2 lb
Purchase DC: 16
Restriction: Lic (+1)
For night-time use, the Px4 comes with a set of luminescent sights which, upon "charging", can remain visible in darkness for up to 30 minutes. The Px4 also has a Picatinny-type accessory rail where the user can mount various illuminators, laser sights and other additions.
Variants: With expanded magazines, the Px4 can carry 20 9mm rounds, or 17 .40 S&W rounds.
---
More information can be found here and here.
I was just stating an aspect of the weapon that seems significant. I have no idea what comparison you're speaking of.
Besides which, sights have little gameplay effect unless they're on rifles (iron sights ruling in Weapons Locker).
edit:
Wiki page on it mentions use in gun sights.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium
By the way, what's IWB?
Most dedicated concealment holsters are either shoulder holsters (worn under a jacket, a la Miami Vice), or IWBs. I carry in an IWB 90% of the time. They're great, but you have to buy your pants about two inches bigger in the waist than you otherwise would. Or, do what I do, and wear pants with elastic sewn into the waistband.
So it does a good job of keeping it in place? Aren't you worried it could fall out?
Most good holsters (_especially_ police models) grip the weapon really well unless you pull it straight out.
I once used a stage prop Beretta 92 with a police holster, and the holster gripped the slide hard enough that it operated the slide. (very weak spring though). It was easy to draw, and the prop wouldn't come out even if I shook it upside down. It was a plastic prop though.
Ah, but I was referring to this "IWB" method of concealing it (unless you were, of course :P).
I was.
IWB _holsters_ are actual holsters that you wear between the waistband of your pants and your waist. Any decent holster will hang on to the weapon pretty well.
If you were picturing just sticking the weapon in the waist band of your pants and hoping for the best, I would worry about it falling out too.
I carry in an IWB holster specifically designed for the purpose.
I suppose they aren't best when you want to carry a squeeze-to-deactivate-safety weapon like the HK P7 though. Is this worth statting up a seperate holster besides hip and concealed, or is the latter fine?
Hoo boy do I feel silly...
Why? There's not reason you couldn't carry a P7 in an IWB holster. I know several people who do, because the P7 is a pretty concealable pistol.
Is this worth statting up a seperate holster besides hip and concealed, or is the latter fine?
I'd say just use the stats for a concealed holster. IWBs are meant for concealment, not speed, though a good one will be quite fast. The real problem is getting to it. I have to pull a shirt up and/or out of the way to access my primary weapon, because maintaining concealment is more important to me than a lightning-fast draw. Concealment means I'll have a good chance of not needing a fast draw. However, I'm not appreciably slower with my IWB rig than I am with my conventional belt holster when I'm at the range. In fact, I shoot competition matches out of my IWB rig all the time.
Everything from a Pathinder .22 on your ankle, to that Smith and Wesson on your hip, to that RPG-7 across your back.
That's the great thing about Quick Draw: it doesn't discriminate.
Everything from a Pathinder .22 on your ankle, to that Smith and Wesson on your hip, to that RPG-7 across your back.
Actually, I think you take a slight penalty to your Sleight of Hand checks if you conceal a weapon lightly enough to use Quick Draw on it. I don't have my books handy, but that's the way I remember it.
And you'd be right,
Weapon can be drawn as free action with Quick Draw feat -4
Here
However, I wasn't thinking of concealing it when using Quick Draw, just at how versatile the feat is in general. From rocket launchers to great mauls... :D
Say, would a Mastercraft concealed carry holster grant a bonus to Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal the firearm?
Perhaps a Mastercraft +2 version could allow Quick Draw to be used without penalty?Also, don't you find it odd that Spot is the relevant skill for detecting concealed weapons? Search seems like it fits the bill better, as most security guards pat you down instead of glancing you over.
Also, don't you find it odd that Spot is the relevant skill for detecting concealed weapons? Search seems like it fits the bill better, as most security guards pat you down instead of glancing you over.
The whole spot search thing bugs me in general. While there are some things that you should only be able to find if you are actively searching and some things you can just notice (spot), I don't think you should be limited to spot only for the later. I generally allow a spot check and then a search check if they actively look in the right area.
It makes little sense that it isn't, especially when we have items with a slight precedence for my idea.
Metal Detector
This handheld device provides a +10 equipment bonus on all Search checks involving metal objects.
Granted, it probably conjures images of this :P:
But who's to say it's not this as well?
I can see airport security using this while taking 10, and with Int 10 or Int 12, along with a few ranks in Search defeating most Sleight of Hand "checks" with conventional weaponry.
Finally, d20 Future has a gadget for weapons called "sensor baffling" which seems like it's intended for use in an airport / skyport.
Can someone tell me what this guy is holding? I've seen it fired before, but never caught it's name. Also, do stats for it exist?
I have to look up the PN & milspec in the -20P TM, but I recognize it from a guy in my old unit having one on order.
Index Finger (military grade) PL1
Melee Weapon
Req: Occupation Military
Size: Tiny
Damage: 1d3
Crit: 20, &
--- FortSaveDC15 or Blinded (1/3),
--- or with Attackers Intimidate DC15 (free act), target Shaken 2 rounds (2/3)
Here's another weapon identification question:
Can someone tell me what this guy is holding? I've seen it fired before, but never caught it's name. Also, do stats for it exist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M136
M136, also known as the AT4, anti-tank weapon.
How would it stand powerwise in comparison to the LAW or RPG-7?
m72LAW punches 300mm steelplate 4lb Rocket
m136 AT4 punches 400mm RHA, 4lb warhead
m47 Dragon punches 450 RHA , ~12lb Warhead
Javelin punches Abrams armor, 18lb Warhead, Top Attack Mode
RPG7 85mm : 330mm RHA
RPG7 93mm : 500mm RHA
RPG7 105mm : 700mm RHA
M1 tank armor, effective 350mm vs KE, 700 vs HEAT
M1A1 Abrams, effective ~950 vs KE, 1320-1620 vs HEAT
The Iowa battleship wouldn't have a problem with that kind of armor.
its kinda like a standard set a bunch of decades ago for heavy armor,
As Effective As XXX milimeters of RHA,
Can penetrate XXX milimeters RHA
Modern armors get RHA ratings much higher than the actual thickness, like the Abrams getting those high ratings with 4-6" actual armor. Whereas the Iowa battleship got 430mm ratings by having 17" steel armor on the tower. You can bounce a m72LAW off just a couple inches Chobham, or with the 12" standard RHA on the side of a Iowa
---
M136 AT4
Damage: 12d6
Critical: 20/X3
Blast Radius: 10ft
Penetration: 12 points of Hardness
Range Increment: 100 ft
Min range: 35ft. If fired against a target closer than 35 feet away, the rocket will not arm.
Weight: 15 lb
Size: Large
Length: 40 inches
Purchase DC: 20
Restriction: Mil (+3)
---
Perhaps add a quality where those in the square behind the user receive 2d6 Fire damage (Reflex save DC 15)?
It is a run around on your shoulder, aim & shoot thing, standing kneeling prone. No pod is needed, and I dont think it can accept a pod.
Sounds Large, 2handed for medium creatures without rest/pod
Other wise, that seems ok
but you should remember to keep a list of all the goodies you stat, and fit it to that list as well. If you have juiced up the LAW, then you need to have you numbers for the AT4 fit in with your LAW numbers.
I just saw the LAW's 10d6, and from the numbers on the articles, it appears to be a little more powerful, so I added two dice of damage.
Thanks on the size comment -> changed to Large.
How about this?
M136 AT4
Damage: 12d6
Critical: 20/X3
Blast Radius: 10ft
Penetration: 12 points of Hardness
Range Increment: 100 ft
Min range: 35ft. If fired against a target closer than 35 feet away, the rocket will not arm.
Weight: 15 lb
Size: Huge
Length: 40 inches
Purchase DC: 20
Restriction: Mil (+3)
---
Perhaps add a quality where those in the square behind the user receive 2d6 Fire damage (Reflex save DC 15)?
I've got just a suggestion on that stat block:
The "back-blast" quality looks underpowered to me, but I'm neglecting the fact that someone would have to be pretty clueless to not notice that someone is firing a rocket launcher right next to him/her. Also, the wiki mentions that the back-blast is capable of burning the user, so perhaps the weapon also invokes a chance of that happening (similar to 'unreliability' increasing the failure rate of a weapon), perhaps on a roll of 3 or less (effectively 15% chance of burning yourself).
How about this?
M136 AT4
Speaking for the damage and penetration, if it will eat up a contemporary APC, but only **** off the crew of a contemporary tank, you are probably dead on.
Hardness: 20
HP: 64
Compared to the AT4's Ignore Hardness 12 and average damage of 36? A rocket will deal about 25-28 damage on average to the Abrams.
That's 2-3 shots to take out the tank.
---
Now the M2A2 Bradley.
Hardness: 15
HP: 58
Compared to the AT4's Ignore Hardness 12 and average damage of 36? That rocket will deal about 30-33 damage on average to the Bradley.
That's 2 shots to take out the APC.
---
Finally, the BMP-2.
Hardness: 10
HP: 52
Compared to the AT4's Ignore Hardness 12 and average damage of 36? That rocket will deal about 36 damage on average to the BMP-2.
That's 2 shots to take out the APC.
My understanding is that most APCs are non-mission-capable after one hit from a contemporary infantry rocket launcher.
Tanks can usually take RPGs/LAWs/AT4s to the front all day long.
M1A2 Abrams
This is the U.S. Army's main battle tank, probably the most advanced and powerful tank in the world. It is crewed by a driver, a gunner, a gun loader, and a commander. It has three top hatches, one for the driver and two on the turret. (The driver's position cannot be reached from the other positions, which are all in the turret.) It takes a full-round action to enter a tank and another full-round action to start it moving. The Abrams is three squares wide and six squares long. It provides full cover to its occupants.
My guess is that the rocket would have to hit the square the character is in, pierce the armor, then any dealt damage would be dealt to them as well. Since APCs have less armor (hardness) it would indeed be easier to cook the crew before the coffin.
Damaging Vehicles
All vehicles have hit points, which are roughly equivalent to a character's hit points. Like most inanimate objects, vehicles also have hardness. Whenever a vehicle takes damage, subtract the vehicle's hardness from the damage dealt.
When a vehicle is reduced to 0 hit points, it is disabled. Although it might be repairable, it ceases functioning. A vehicle that is disabled while moving drops one speed category each round until it comes to a stop. The driver cannot attempt any maneuvers except a 45-degree turn.
Unlike characters, vehicles don't "die" when they reach -10 hit points. Instead, a vehicle is destroyed when it loses hit points equal to twice its full normal total. A destroyed vehicle cannot be repaired.
Energy Attacks: Vehicles are treated as objects when subjected to energy attacks.
Exploding Vehicles: If the attack that disables a vehicle deals damage equal to half its full normal hit points or more, the vehicle explodes after 1d6 rounds. This explosion deals 10d6 points of damage to everyone within the vehicle (Reflex save, DC 20, for half damage), and half that much to everyone and everything within 30 feet of the explosion (Reflex save, DC 15, for half damage).
At 0 HP, the tank is sitting there, though those inside are probably roughed up or dying/dead.
It's only at -64 HP does it explode. That's 4-6 hits of the AT4.
It is 'destroyed' and is unrepairable, the rules dont have it explode.
Exploding vehicles only happen when you do over 50% Max HP to the vehicle in one attack that drops the vehicle HP below 1. If you knock a Abrams from 64hp down to 2hp with a single attack (62 damage), it doesnt explode. If you then knock it to -25hp (a 27 damage hit) it still doesnt explode but it is disabled. If you then hit it again down to -50 (25 damage) no explosion, and then -75hp (25 damage) still no explosion but the tank cannot be repaired or salvaged or used as anything you use a tank for.... its just gone, man
Occupants have full cover.
You need to get more creative than to say a hit that beats Hardness kills crew, or that disabling (below 1hp) injures/effects crew under RAW. If (3) 30damage rockets disable the tank to -24, the d20 crew wont even spill their beers, they coast to a stop & get out just fine. < I suggest a 4th rocket about 1 round after the crew hatches open
for the rats abandoning ship>tanks are designed to do one thing really well.
They drive around, but are horrible transportation.
They have a big gun, but artillery does it bigger & easier.
They provide seats to the crew, but furniture is more comfortable.
But they provide cover to the crew.
Better than an aluminum skin F16,
better than the tub of an A10 Tankbuster,
better than humvees, armored humvees, and extra-armored humvees,
better than Armored Fighting Vehicles...
they really really REALLY provide amazing amounts of protection to the crew.
Its what they do. Its their thing, and they are good at it.
Modern tanks bounce off shells from ww2 TankKiller artillery, and laugh at m72LAWs. Not to protect the drivability of the tank, but to protect the operational ability of the crew, as the crew are the ones killing opposition not the tank. A functional vehicle with big gun and dead crew is not as good as a tank that keeps its crew in the fight.
Besides, hitting the Crew of a healthy tank is a bad precedent to set in a game that has mechs too... why fight the mech when I can just take a -4 to OneShotKill it with my 30mm ATRR to the cocpit. Why fight the tank when I can just take a -4 to one shot kill it with my AT4 to the driver.
Although, if you really want to harm the occupants without them exiting, drop the tank to -64 and it is destroyed... and destroyed tanks are no longer tanks that provide any cover to the crew. Then, once you have removed the tank from around them, start shooting at them. But I would say any damage in excess to destroy the tank would be done to the crew in some logical distribution for the weapon used
No one's discounting that, but there should still be ways to injure the crew while leaving the overall structure of the vehicle intact. The image of a crew sitting in a skeleton shell of an Abrams is too...
---
Not that mechs are part of the default game in any event.
One of the side effects of tank armor being penetrated is a spray of high-speed molten metal on the back side of the armor. This is the biggest reason damaged tanks catch fire. I imagine it is kind of like having a WP and Frag grenade go off in your tank.
And I agree - when these juggernauts roll by, they're used in a short term capacity and usually do the job well.As for the penetration rules with Hardness/HP, i'm not against a house-rule that makes a certain amount of damage in excess be translated to damage in a square against those that occupy it.
Okay, so that was about a paragraph to emphasize that tanks are durable.
No one's discounting that, but there should still be ways to injure the crew while leaving the overall structure of the vehicle intact. The image of a crew sitting in a skeleton shell of an Abrams is too...
---
Not that mechs are part of the default game in any event.
Don't HEAT weapons cause chips of the internal bulkheads of the tank splatter off and bounce off the internal structure plus crew, I'd say that would cause the crew to dies/get injured without seriously damaging the tank. Other than that I guess you could use neutron bombs to just irradiate the crews.... though that opens cans of worms that people don't want to bring into this thread.
Don't HEAT weapons cause chips of the internal bulkheads of the tank splatter off and bounce off the internal structure plus crew, I'd say that would cause the crew to dies/get injured without seriously damaging the tank. Other than that I guess you could use neutron bombs to just irradiate the crews.... though that opens cans of worms that people don't want to bring into this thread.
HEAT rounds? I guess so. However, I haven't seen those in any of the WOTC books. Would you happen to have stats for them?
And I agree irradiating the crew could work, but it's not a method I asked for and typically is overkill. Definitely not portable either :P.
Don't HEAT weapons cause chips of the internal bulkheads of the tank splatter off and bounce off the internal structure plus crew
You are talking about High-Explosive Squash Head (HESH)
HESH is a HE round with a relatively thin casing, and the fuze at the back. The HE filler forms against the armor plating and then explodes. The effect is similar to walking up to the tank, and molding about 30lb of C4 onto the tank.
The explosion sends intense shock waves through the armor that breaks off pieces inside the tank.
The downsides to HESH is that many tanks have inner layers of Kevlar to help catch those chips. Composite armor is also highly resistant to this splintering.
HESH is very effective against concrete structures. HESH rounds are most often used by engineering vehicles to destroy obstacles and bunkers.
How recent is that technology?
HESH? Not very. 1950's probably.
Other than that I guess you could use neutron bombs to just irradiate the crews.... though that opens cans of worms that people don't want to bring into this thread.
One possibility here is using particle beams for a "soft kill".
High energy protons create secondary radiation when they hit a dense metal substance... like tank armor.
So, if you can generate a powerful enough beam, you can use their armor to kill them. and destroy every piece of electronics in the tank.
d20 Future has Hardness applied to all the funky beams & rays that get shot at Ships... from plastic armor to ceramic to unobtainium, they all have a Hardness rating & stop ray guns listed as shipweapons.
Whatever methods you wnat to use to kill tank crews wthout dealing with killing the tank first, all that applies to F16 & Buicks too... including the ones the PC drive. So while you would like to open the world of 1shot PC kills when they are in vehicles (yes, I know the PC has more HP than the tank) the game is really geared to stopping 1shot kills & TPK (tpk like the party is crewing a ship and another ship Mazers it for the TPK)
When bits of the inside armor come off at high speed, even without the armor gettng actually penetrated is spall. Similar to the reasons they used RHA instead of a harder armor on tanks & battleships... hard armor will shatter & frag the inside, but RHA does that less. We did that all the way back in ww2. Many applications of heavy armor are indeed layered hard & softer stuff inside to catch the spall off the hard armor... be it softer metal or kevlar these days.
But if you are serious about having shots that get thru the hull getting the crew, then you will have to deal with the Hardness & Inches complete nightmare d20 made
3mm steel plate has Hardness10, 3" steelplate has Hardness10
both get 30hp/in?
50BMg can punch 19mm @ 500m (iir)
Cause we have argued the insanity of this adnauseum when you look at tanks mechs & ships. You will just hurt yourself if you try to find penetration & apply it.... and expect plenty of TPK because, unlike the premiss of d20Modern, getting hit by cannons will kill you & your friends.
unlike the premiss of d20Modern, getting hit by cannons will kill you & your friends.
Well, it's a good thing we're speaking of the cinematic roleplaying game d20 Modern, now isn't it?
Assuming they have enough HP and survive the save (Massive Damage/Reflex/whatever), they will be okay.
I'm just looking for a way, no matter how difficult, to at least give them a chance to do so to the badguys (who are most often ordinaries) compared to the protagonists (heroes). The latter definetely have the feats to spare.
we've lost one tank so far in the whole of golf war 2 and that was friendly fire at night in a sand storm and only because it got hit in the rear.
chobbham is the best armour out their it stands up to any weapon system a grunt can carry. and tanks have to catch flanks or the rear and we don't run so thats hard
pc's can survive 50bmg's but tanks get owned? go figure also spacer armour and reactive armour enable apc's to shrug off AT weapons at least once
pc's can survive 50bmg's but tanks get owned?
Hm, let's see here. By the rules, a .50 BMG weapon does 2d12 damage. The PCs don't have Damage Reduction 20 or Hardness 20, which means most of the time that weapon is ineffective against the Abrams but plenty effective against them. And unless i'm mistaken, vehicles don't have to make Fortitude saves if dealt a certain amount of damage. Did I forget criticals?
as a machinegun, aka Burst or Autofire.
2d12 50BMG +2d12 Burstfire +(whatever Houserule AP bonus) - 20Hardness = ouchie for tanks
mk82 500lb iron bomb has about 190+ lb of high explosives
Tank gets slagged next to over 382d6 (or just 191d6 by dynamite) explosion that the FAST MONKEY somehow 'rolls with the blast with Evasion' for zippo pain
Items/vehicles aren't meant to be the centerpieces of games, but the PC putting them to good use are.
Most folks fire the 50Browning MachineGun
I must have missed that poll. Or the Barrett Light Fifty. Oh, the PC put the feats and skills into reaching the relevant feat? How dare they get a benefit!
Even with Burstfire (4d12, average of, what..24...28?) that's 4-8 damage per burst. Not to mention that unless the tank is sitting there, it has a nice 10d12 gun.
And what house-rule AP bonus is that? Finally, after checking the Abram's main weapon damage, I noticed the PDC for the shells is somewhat...absent?
and then count up the M2 varriants the US & friends put on everything in just ww2. Each p47 takes 8 50bmgs, and you can do the math for all the BMGs on the b17 & b24s
Bolt & Semi rifles in 50BMG are an almost insignificant fraction of the guns chambered in 50bmg for the past 70 or so years
"Hey, what's that gun you have?"
"A Barrett M82A2"
"You're over the quota. Get a Ma Deuce"
"But I have Far Shot, Dead Aim and..."
"You heard me!"
we were talking tanks,
and then the use of 50bmg against tanks,
and then you mentioned the statistical probability of singe bullet vs burst.
The probability is that 15000+ p47 fighters were made, each with 8 50cal machineguns, while we have yet to see all singleshot manufactures combine to meet the number of auto 50s in just that one plane model.
That is the probaility of a 50cal slug being alone in the big picture.
If you want to have a custom world where that isnt so, ok.
But please state that when talking generally about using 50cal against armor and the d20 mechanics dealing with that. We (general Modern) use Burst when shooting 50cal at armor, but in your House Campaign you dont have to if you dont want to.
I didn't realize I was speaking to the spokesperson either.
Yes, but the truth of the matter is that integration usually occurs when the factors have been considered and then put into place. That's partially why I don't see the need for rarity in the price of the weapon to be raised in keeping up to date with real life statistics: partially because your game world has a history all it's own and can ahere (or not) to those numbers you put forth.
Both the Barrett Light Fifty and M2HB are PDC 22, BUT the latter has a higher Restriction [ Mil +3 ] compared to the former's [ Lic +1 ]
COP 357 Derringer
American .357 Double-Action Break Open Pistol
Damage: 2d6+1
Critical: 20
Type: Ballistic
Range Increment: 10 ft
Rate of Fire: Single
Magazine: 4 int
Size: Tiny
Weight: 1.75 lb
Purchase DC: 15
Restriction: Lic (+1)
COP 357 Derringer
American .357 Double-Action Break Open Pistol
It is a neat concept. Can more than 1 barrel fire at a time?
This would be a good application for a Metalstorm type action. Stack 2-3 rounds per barrel, and still have 2" or so of functional barrel.
I would drop it to 2d6 so it is in line with the other .357s. (in the SRD anyway.)
Also in the holdout category, have you looked at the subcompact Glock pistols? They might be just a little larger, but you have more rounds, and it's magazine loaded, in case the first 7-10 rounds don't get you out of Dodge.
---
Here's what Wikipedia has to say about that:
It should be noted that modifying the striker to fire two (or more) bullets at a time would violate the National Firearms Act and could be categorized as an unlawful machine gun by BATFE. Furthermore, such modifications could create too much chamber pressure and cause the barrel to explode seriously injuring the shooter and bystanders.
So i'm guessing it fires one shot at a time, but would it be slightly inaccurate due to how the barrels are set up? I don't know whether or not to give it a special quality that imposes -1 to hit.
But hey, it's a decent suicide pistol as well. Gives you four, yes, four chances.
As for the Glocks, are you referring to the Glock 26? That's the one most commonly known to me. It looks snug enough.
I've got just a suggestion on that stat block:
The "back-blast" quality looks underpowered to me, but I'm neglecting the fact that someone would have to be pretty clueless to not notice that someone is firing a rocket launcher right next to him/her. Also, the wiki mentions that the back-blast is capable of burning the user, so perhaps the weapon also invokes a chance of that happening (similar to 'unreliability' increasing the failure rate of a weapon), perhaps on a roll of 3 or less (effectively 15% chance of burning yourself).
I saw a video once of a Middle Eastern RPG gunner vaporizing his loader with backblast. It was really hilarious. The loader stands up behind the gunner to spray with his AK held over his head third-world style, then disappears in a fireball. The gunner then reaches back for a new rocket, turns his head to look for the loader when no rocket is forthcoming, and you can almost hear him say "Achmed?"
Ooopsie-daisy!
Then again, some people have laughed at the beheading videos that were floating around at one time. It's a fascination with death taken to an unhealthy extreme.
Anyhow, please, let's try to keep this topic away from real life issues. :embarrass
As for the Glocks, are you referring to the Glock 26? That's the one most commonly known to me. It looks snug enough.
Interestingly, the Glock subcompact is the only style that is offered in all Glock calibers.
Holdout in 10mm auto anyone?
(that noise you hear is your wrist moaning in fright.) Hmm... Not that a holdout in .357M would be any different. Reminds me of an article about a big bore snub-nosed handgun designed for close-in defense against large dangerous animals. To paraphrase, "If you have to use it, you won't notice the recoil." It was compatible with a much weaker cartridge for practice purposes.
because truth is stranger than fiction
"Holdout in 10mm auto anyone? (that noise you hear is your wrist moaning in fright.) "
LOL
There is also a .500 S&W magnum revolver with a 2 3/4 inch barrel for inclusion in survival kits, because shooting it would be less unpleasant than being eaten by a polar bear. Now that is a way to advertise a gun, isn't it?
Would a subcompact 10mm really be that bad? I don't have anything to reference it to, but it seems like while it wouldn't be a fun gun to take to the range, when you are actually putting your life on the line, you would have more important things to consider than the recoil.
There is also a .500 S&W magnum revolver with a 2 3/4 inch barrel for inclusion in survival kits, because shooting it would be less unpleasant than being eaten by a polar bear. Now that is a way to advertise a gun, isn't it?
The difference is that while a smaller revolver might not kill the polar bear, a small 9x19mm will be perfectly serviceable against people. Why take a gun you can't shoot well or rapidly because of excessive recoil, when you can take a gun that you shoot quite well and still knocks bad guys down?
Would a subcompact 10mm really be that bad? I don't have anything to reference it to, but it seems like while it wouldn't be a fun gun to take to the range, when you are actually putting your life on the line, you would have more important things to consider than the recoil.
There is also a .500 S&W magnum revolver with a 2 3/4 inch barrel for inclusion in survival kits, because shooting it would be less unpleasant than being eaten by a polar bear. Now that is a way to advertise a gun, isn't it?
There's also range considerations to take into place: how often do you expect to have to make the shot beyond 60 feet or so?
Interestingly, the Glock subcompact is the only style that is offered in all Glock calibers.
Holdout in 10mm auto anyone?
Reminds me of an article about a big bore snub-nosed handgun designed for close-in defense against large dangerous animals. To paraphrase, "If you have to use it, you won't notice the recoil." It was compatible with a much weaker cartridge for practice purposes.
My 'holdout' piece is a S&W 642-1. It's an aluminum J-frame snubby in .38 Special. I load it with 148-grain target wadcutters. It's basically a last-ditch NSR drill (Non-Standard Response, i.e. 5 shots to center mass). But I know those five rounds will hit right where the Crimson Trace laser beam is designating.
What size hands do you guys have? That definitely influences what feels comfortable...
I've got pretty decent sized hands. For example the Glock 21, USP, Coonan, and even Desert Eagle are all comfortable fits for me.
My issue with the Glock 30 was that my pinkie was under the magazine, so it's actually a bit small for my hands.
I do prefer full sized pistols though.
I've never actually held a Desert Eagle, older variations or new, before.
I do prefer full sized pistols though.
I have big hands. I think a Beretta 92 is about perfect in terms of grip shape and size. I can handle a Desert Eagle, but even I think they're too big for proper ergonomics. I did manage some wicked double taps with a .50AE variant, though. It doesn't kick nearly as much as I thought it would. Heck, I'd put it about on par with some medium-frame .357 revolvers I've shot, and less than a 4" S&W 629.
which is why I didnt get the Grizzly, AutomagIII, or DE.
No sense in getting a gun you cant control, even more so when the gun is a handcannon.
My issue with the Glock 30 was that my pinkie was under the magazine, so it's actually a bit small for my hands
The SW469 solved that with the plasitc Pinky Hook florplate on the magazine. You could put a flat mag plate on for less size & snagging, and even use the 20 (or more) round 59 family mags that would stick out past the grips.
I dont have big hands,
which is why I didnt get the Grizzly, AutomagIII, or DE.
No sense in getting a gun you cant control, even more so when the gun is a handcannon.
The SW469 solved that with the plasitc Pinky Hook florplate on the magazine. You could put a flat mag plate on for less size & snagging, and even use the 20 (or more) round 59 family mags that would stick out past the grips.
let him take the 5-7 and realize that he would be just as likely to hit with the .50 but with the .50 he'd do so much more damage.
Thanks for the advice. I made the decision a while ago though...and amended my house-rules to state up front my reasoning for making the caliber/weapon weaker.
Knowledge (Tactics)
This skill has confounded many GMs and players alike. Sure, some may take it, but it's generally used to meet the requirement of the Soldier AdC, or, in rarer cases, the Field Officer AdC. Otherwise it ends up mostly as a dead skill, unless the GM is gracious and either experienced enough, or has a high Research modifier to impart good benefits with a decent check.
I propose a series of numerical bonuses for those that want to impart a less academic benefit to players that choose the skill.
So far, I have these two, but I was also considering one based on drawing fire. Thoughts on balance, or more uses of the skill are welcome!
---
Ambush: You are skilled at launching surprise attacks.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Tactics) 5 ranks, Hide 4 ranks
Benefit: A successful check imparts a +1 bonus on Hide checks to conceal one's self immediately prior to an attack. For every additional 5 ranks, the character gains an additional +1 to Hide, for a maximum bonus of +4 (23 ranks)
-
Guerilla warfare: You have an uncanny ability to evade weapons fire when making hit and run attacks.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Tactics) 5 ranks, Dex 16 or Shot on the Run
Benefit: In any round where the character has moved at least their base speed either before, after, or during an attack, they gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to Defense against ranged attacks. For every additional 5 ranks, the character gains an additional +1 to dodge, for a maximum bonus of +4 (23 ranks)
---
Another aspect I had in mind was to allow the character to impart these benefits to others he designates and informs for every modifier of Cha beyond +0
Cha 10 - Self
Cha 12 - Self, one other
Cha 14 - Self, two others
Cha 16 - Self, three others
and so forth. It might unbalance Charismatic Heroes and Field Officers, i'm unsure...
Ideas?
----
Long-Range Fire (based on Long-Range Archery, HoB)
Task Leader Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 5 ranks or Far Shot Feat
Team Member Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 1 rank or Point Blank Shot
Benefit: When a team member misses with a ranged attack made against a target further away than one range increment, subsequent ranged attacks any team member makes against that foe take only half penalty for range (-1 per range increment). If the foe move more than 20 feat, this benefit does not apply until a team member shoots at and misses the foe again.
----
Ranged Precision (based on Ranged Precision, HoB)
Task Leader Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 5 ranks or BAB +4; and Precise Shot
Team Member Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 1 rank or BAB +2
Benefit: The penalty for firing a ranged weapon in melee is cut in half (from -4 to -2) if every ally in melee is on your team. The AC benefit your foe gets from cover is likewise cut in half (from +4 to +2) if that cover consists solely of team members.
----
Friendly Fire Evasion (based on Friendly Fire Evasion, HoB)
Task Leader Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 4 ranks, evasion ability
Team Member Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 1 rank, Base Reflex save +2
Benefit: You gain the evasion ability (MCR 22), but only concerning attacks made by team members.
----
Friendly Fire Evasion, Improved (based on Friendly Fire Evasion, HoB)
Task Leader Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 6 ranks, improved evasion ability
Team Member Prerequisite: Knowledge (Tactics) 1 rank, Base Reflex save +3
Benefit: You gain the improved evasion ability (MCR 23), but only concerning attacks made by team members.
um, so if we spend 5 ranks not taking HideSkill we can roll for a +1 on very specific types of Hide Checks? That seems to just scream for taking CC ranks in Hide for guaranteed +2 on any & all hide checks and a spare skill point left instead.
Wasting skill points early in skills you dont actually use (or have no use), to meet the throw away reqs of some class is a pain. At second level I would use Hide or Spot, but have to take Tactics that does nothing but fill waste reqs. Adding a +1Hide TacticsCheck (5rank req) is nowhere near as usefull as having the CC rank in hide.
If you want to meke Tactics not be a complete waste
Every 4 ranks of Tactics conveys a stacking synergy +1 to Spot & Hide
--- perfect 2:1 CC style, spend 4 points to get 2 ranks in CC skills
--- usable by low level guys... including 1st level... ability at 1st is such a novel concept.
--- simple scaling, the more you spend the more you get
--- now you can actually use all the time the throw away req skill, starting at 1st
Ambush
um, so if we spend 5 ranks not taking HideSkill we can roll for a +1 on very specific types of Hide Checks? That seems to just scream for taking CC ranks in Hide for guaranteed +2 on any & all hide checks and a spare skill point left instead.
Of course they're specific, they're for specific situations and to give Knowledge (Tactics) some flexibility and flavor that you can see without having to hand out specific information per situation. This keeps it in the realm of a handy practical skill without making the other skills (such as Hide) less effective on their own.
Now those that pump up Knowledge (Tactics) will have an incentive to, other than simply entering classes.
---
Not bad nobodez_here, I just recalled DMG2...I might have to adapt Ranged Precision :D
So, what do you think about my idea on having Cha permit the bonuses to others? Should it be available?
Not bad nobodez_here, I just recalled DMG2...I might have to adapt Ranged Precision :D
So, what do you think about my idea on having Cha permit the bonuses to others? Should it be available?
If I were to adopt your system, I'd make it a Scaling Charisma Check.
DC 25 - Self + 4
DC 20 - Self + 3
DC 15 - Self + 2
DC 10 - Self + 1
Fail - Self
Or even make it a Knowledge (Tactics) check.
----
On an aside, you might want to adapt the Plan talent. Perhaps make some derivative of it, lesser Plan, and have it based on Knowledge Tactics.
In any case, i've been working on more uses of Knowledge (Tactics) and fixing the existing ones, but i've been too busy to post them here. Expect something within the following week though.
Hmm... Sam fisher vs Gabe Logan. Who would win?
Someone came up with that line of reasoning a while ago...
In any case, i've been working on more uses of Knowledge (Tactics) and fixing the existing ones, but i've been too busy to post them here. Expect something within the following week though.
Any ideas on the H&K USP Compact?
They should make them HKs in blue.... or maybe SeaFoam, so they would be, you know, prettier. Maybe little red HelloKitty's on a white gun.
Something like these?
In what regard? Stats?
Yeah, i'm deciding on what differences there'd be besides the bonus to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it.
Yeah, i'm deciding on what differences there'd be besides the bonus to Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it.
Less ammo, more concealability. That's about it
What rounds can it be chambered in?
As of 1997 it was in the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. According to Wikipediayou can add on the .357 SIG. Which means, using the standard d20M gun rules, you're stuck with 2d6 damage no matter what. Heck, it's even in the (oft maligned) Weapons Locker (though, only in 9mm, though the .40 and .45 are discussed).
2d6 damage, 30 ft. range, 13 (12 .40 S&W/.357 SIG, 8 .45 ACP) box magazine, small size, 2 pounds, PDC 17 (Lic).
Thanks anyways!
Introducing the .60 cal 'Desert Demon' Mucho Macho Handcannon:
Type: 'handgun', revolver
Range: 30 feet.
Damage: 2d12
ammo: 6
Features:
+4 on intimidation checks when menacing with wpn. +6 If you say: 'Do you feel, lucky, punk'?
Opponents must make DC 15 will save every time shooter hits target or be shaken 1d4 rounds.
Confirmed criticals result in exploding head of target.
However:
Player, opponents and allies alike must make DC15 fortitude save whenever wpn is fired or be deafened for 1d4 rounds.
Shooter must make DC 10 balance check everytime wpn is fired. Failure means 50% chance of:
being knocked flat on your ass; or
the recoil smacks the handcannon into your forehead, causing 1d6 nonlethal, DC 15 fortitude save or be knocked out.
Males who carry the mucho macho desert demon handcannon take -4 on diplomacy checks with female NPC's, as the latter will assume male player is 'compensating' for something else.
Mighty Manly MegaMagnum
Damage: 2d8 + 1d6 Magnum damage that both the target & shooter take
Pleas for mercy,
Gunshots,
Train Whistles,
Tornado Sirens,
Tornados,
Nuke Overpresure Shockwaves
... he is just that loud. The final word in Noise Cancelation is the shout of the real man.
I thought the batlecry of the mucho macho manly man would drown out
...
... he is just that loud. The final word in Noise Cancelation is the shout of the real man.
Nah, it isn't the battle cry that drowns that stuff out, it is the full-time whistling in his ears from all the hearing damage.
Or maybe I just don't know people who are mucho macho manly enough.
Hey ed_209a, don't you visit the GURPS boards from time to time?
Sure do. I am ed_209a there too.
Been lurking a bit lately. Nothing much peaked my interest.
Good people there. (and a few jackasses, but only a few.)
Hey ed_209a, don't you visit the GURPS boards from time to time?
Sure do. I am ed_209a there too.
Been lurking a bit lately. Nothing much peaked my interest.
Good people there. (and a few jackasses, but only a few.)
Sure do. I am ed_209a there too.
Been lurking a bit lately. Nothing much peaked my interest.
Good people there. (and a few jackasses, but only a few.)
Cool! Ever use Hero System?
I've heard of the Hero system. Any good?
I'm a huge fan. There are no classes no levels no random stats; everything is point based and very well thought out and well balanced! Their weapons rules are great (not perfect, but very playable). It has an awesome skill and martial arts system, and Champions is (IMHO) far and away the best super system ever! I'm a hairs breadth away from re-doing the 21st century US civil war Campaign using Dark Champions.
I've heard of the Hero system. Any good?
Very good. HERO is a solid generic system, and Champions (the HERO superhero setting) is probably the best superhero system I have come across.
The dark side of HERO is that it is relatively simple to minmax your character if you have a lot of experience with the game. An experienced player's 200 point "tough guy" will probably be much more effective than a new player's 300 point "tough guy".
Look, the numbers are all screwed up. A 15 shot 9mm does 2d6, and so does an 8 shot 1911, so who would ever take a 1911, yet the FBI and many other elite units turn to the 1911 because it is fast and the 45 acp is one hell of a manstopper, but here in this book they are the same.
Second, BOTH the Deagle and the 5-7 are crap. The Deagle is excessively large for what it is, and really can't be carried in a hip holster like most other guns, it is just to freaking big. The 5-7 is great for cutting through armor, but otherwise it is like shooting somone with a .22 mag, it just doesn't cut the mustard. But for BOTH the accuracy is decided entirely by the shooter, and to a lesser degree by the quality of sights. More recoil simply means more time between followup shots, but AGAIN, that bit of reality is being ignored. Got that knucklehead? The second biggest area where the 5-7 is better than the deagle is IGNORED by this system (biggest is capacity, which is modeled)
And finally moron, what is the purpose of the handgun? TO FIGHT YOUR WAY TO THE RIFLE YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE LAID DOWN IN THE FIRST PLACE!
What are the 3 cardinal rules of gunfights?
1. Bring a gun
2. Make sure that gun is a true rifle
3. Bring friends/allies with rifles
Modern underplays rifles because it is heavily influenced by movies and TV, because it expects those are the types of heros most players will try and emulate. Don't compare guns to how they exist in reality, compare guns to how they are most commonly portrayed in the movies. d20 modern is not about reality, it is about acting out a really cool action TV show rather than just watching it.
. No one's trying to insult anyone else's taste in firearms relating to RPGs, we were just trying to come up with representations a little closer to reality, and to preserve game balance.
I wouldn't do such a thing, as concealing it is impractical at best, but it was an interesting academic exercise.
Stupid prosecutor. The guy just wiped a couple of POS gangers off the street for good, and the prosecutor wants to crucify him for it?
It seems like the prosecutor was just one of those guys that wants to make a name for himself, and of course get paid, don't they get paid more for winning?
That article impressed me with the rate of fire that an auto has, the warning burst had nine shots and the killing burst had six, he took his finger off the trigger as quickly as he could when he realized it was in auto the first time. I think I see why the bean-counters don't like people having auto. I still think they are stupid to not issue weapons with automatic fire, but I see why they don't want the soldiers using it.
More guns for law abiding civilians, less guns for cops
Whoa whoa, calm down
No one's trying to insult anyone else's taste in firearms relating to RPGs, we were just trying to come up with representations a little closer to reality, and to preserve game balance.
Um, I am! :D
really, handguns suck when compared to rifles in the real world. Just like horses suck compared to motorcycles.
yes, handguns have their place, simply because it is a pain messing around with a rifle all day long, and a rifle is hard to stick in your nightstand. Handguns are for when you are NOT expecting trouble, but when oyu realize that what you expect and what happens sometimes are different.
Rifles are what you get when you are expecting trouble.
But, as with all things, D20 Modern must cater to the desires of the customer.
No matter how great I tell you Tongue Sandwich is, or Birds Nest Soup everyone wants a club sandwich, and a bowl of chicken noodle. If you don't provide what the customer wants, your restraunt will go out of business.
Same thing here. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being reality and 10 being Equilibrium, D20 is built to be probably about 7 on that scale. With houserules you can slide it 3 points either way.
But that is what the majority of people playing want, so that is what D20 Modern is designed to do. Emulate action movies video games and anime with duel wielding etc.
Hence, my suggestion when someone says "In reality this handgun is better than that handgun so this game should take that into account" the DM should reply with "Look, ALL handguns are crap and outclassed by serious rifles by a 10 fold if not 100 fold difference, so this small difference doesn't mean jack $h!t. A single hit even from a small crappy gun should take you out of the fight 75% of the time. Let me assure you, if we start cranking the realism, you will NOT like how quickly your characters die and how utterly worthless most of your equipment becomes"
Overcome the problem by avoiding the problem. By saying "You are right, book is wrong, we go with the book anways"
you can also give the line "It is unfair to change the rules half way through. I think you are right, but I picked my guns based on the flawed rules so did everyone else, it is unfair to change them now"
As you have correctly surmised, now that we have developed short barreled intermediate cartridge weapons, there is no need for the equal sized but much less potent SMGs. Besides, with the right ammo selection, 5.56 will penetrate walls less readily than 9mm.
About the only place SMGs still have a roll is when supression (silencers) are important.
As much as people try and find rolls for handguns, no, shorty assault rifles are the way to go (and shotguns) the roll of handgun is not tied to it's capability in a fight. The roll of the handgun is related to it's ease of carry and it's concealability, not it's effectiveness. Handguns are handy for holding the intruder at gunpoint while you dial 911 or climbing up ladders. The .38 snubnose in your purse is worth much more than the rifle in your closet. That being said, with a handgun and a rifle both within arms reach, rifle all the way.
Looks like they're closely modeled off of each other.
I say rifle vs handgun really depends on the rifle and handgun in question. In my house, a full-sized hunting rifle (700, 70, etc) would be too large to keep in a ready position, it would keep knocking against walls, and since there are neighbors in all directions, I would have serious overpenetration issues. Not to mention that if the first shot misses, I have to cycle the bolt while a very ****** off man is coming after me. If I had an M44, I could just stab him from across the house, but I would still rather have a good semi-auto handgun, or, even better, a shotgun loaded with buck (I would say that is at least as nasty as a rifle round at those ranges anyway). All of the above would penetrate too many walls for me to feel comfortable firing in the same direction as an occupied room, but only the rifle would exit the house reliably and go into the one across the street or next door. Above all, software over hardware, I would rather have a competent shooter with combat experience backing me up with a pistol or M1 (carbine or garand) than a mallninja that would need to close the door before hitting a barn from the inside with an AR-15.
In regards to automatic guns, I also remember a cop killing an informant with a MAC-11. And the first murder I heard of this year was when a cop killed her paramour's wife. Isn't it nice to know that these infallible paragons of justice are out on the streets protecting us? Not that I have anything against cops, just the idea that they are inherently better people.
The bi-plane had an important roll to play at one time too. However, we have move past biplanes.
With the advent of the short barreled intermediate cartridge firearm, the reason for the SMG is gone.
While handguns suck as far as their raw effectiveness, their compact nature makes us keep them around. Note, this compact nature in no way allows them to shine in any combat roll. It does allow them to shine in non-combat ways, i.e. they fit in the nightstand drawer, you can hold one while going up a ladder, they are easier to hide an snubnose revolver in your purse than a SM Lee-Enfield rifle, it is easier to dial the phone with one hand while holding a handgun ready to fire.
The handgun excells at allowing people to do OTHER while still retaining some potential to do serious damage.
However, when the time comes to ONLY do serious damage, leave the handgun home.
Both good weapons as far as I've heard. The G36C looks plain sexy though. That's some real gunporn, right there.
I think the G36k looks best when dressed up - especially with an AG36 underneath
.In the house, though, I have my 870 loaded up with birdshot to prevent overpenetration into the neighbors' condos. I also have my AKMS ready in case I need to penetrate walls. Yay for fast-opening gun safes.
I think the G36k looks best when dressed up - especially with an AG36 underneath
The G36k is nice, I still prefer the G36C though (visually, as I've never fired anything but a G3).
I really like this G36C, although this specific one is an airsoft.
One course of brick probably won't stop a 5.56mm, but two with an airspace probably will.
Assault carbines for home defense is a great reason to live in a neighborhood of all-brick houses.
One course of brick probably won't stop a 5.56mm, but two with an airspace probably will.
not in today's day and age. Maybe 20 yrears ago.
Today, with proper ammo selection (like getting Hornaday 55 grain fragible TAP) a 5.56 penetrates LESS than than most common handgun calibers
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=26
http://www.steyr-aug.com/223forcqb.htm
intermediate cartridges again stop all over the SMG. Better penetration when you need it, lesser penetration when you don't need it. More rounds per pound, just as compact and easy in room to room, but much better when you need to reach out and touch someone.
That is why in addition to the "standard" XM8 with a 12.5 inch barrel they were also proposing a 9 inch folding stock CCB version.
http://s93485377.onlinehome.us/images/xm8.jpg
If anything, people getting hung up on how awesome a shorty assault rifle is makes them fixate so much on the short barreled 5.56 that they seem to forget that at longer ranges you want that 20" barrel to maintain the velocity which allows such great internal tumbling and fragmentation. That's the one problem with everyone getting M-4s or a 12.5 inch XM8, the little 5.56 doesn't have enough time to reach the velocites it is designed for in those barrels
Who knows. It used to be the germans would have 8 guys with K89 rifles and 2 guys with MP-44 SMGs, maybe we will reverse it, have 8 guys with 5.56s using 12 inch barrels and 2 guys with 20 inchers
Who knows. It used to be the germans would have 8 guys with k98 rifles and 2 guys with MP-44 SMGs, maybe we will reverse it, have 8 guys with 5.56s using 12 inch barrels and 2 guys with 20 inchers
It seems to become more and more possible (and reasonable). More combat takes place at confined or short to medium ranges, and less takes place at long ranges. On the other hand, when combat takes place at long ranges, having an M4 carbine with 12 inch barrels kinda sucks.
How much damage should the 20mm version of this bad boy do?
guns.ru says that is "20 x 83.5 mm MG151"
uh, the 20x82mm MG151/20
???
Not as much as you'd think.
It is nowhere near a 20x102(vulcan) nor 20x110(hispano).
The MG151/20 was know as pretty lack luster compared to the Hispano (brits&US) being 10% faster with 20% more slugweight (more HE weight on target).
The 20x110 was 880m/s, 20x82 was about 800m/s, and the x83.5 claims 720m/s
The Vulcan 20x102 gets 1000m/s+
n
Who knows. It used to be the germans would have 8 guys with K89 rifles and 2 guys with MP-44 SMGs, maybe we will reverse it, have 8 guys with 5.56s using 12 inch barrels and 2 guys with 20 inchers
The MP-44 was generally issued to a complete unit, replacing both Kar98k rifles and MP-40 subguns. In the early trials, it also replaced MG-34 and MG-42 GPMGs, though this was seen as lunacy and stopped quickly.
But yeah, I agree with your sentiment. At the time, it was assumed that the MG would supply firepower dominance, the NCO's SMG would be used only when close-quarters fighting was imminent and he didn't have the time to command, but had to fight as well. Nowadays, CQB is the order of the day, and the occasional need for longer-range firepower is handled by the advent of the designated marksman rifle (DMR). The Russians have been doing this for years, with each squad having one member armed with a SVD, while the rest had AKs. It worked for them.
I do predict further attempts to make 5.56 the one size fits all cartridge, for simplicity, but sadly, one size almost never fits all.
One thing I think an SMG would have an advantage in would be someone with very light recoil tolerance, as I assume that a pistol round in an SMG frame is going to recoil less than a rifle round in that same frame. And hey, if it is a 7.62 x 25 SMG, you get penetration on IIIA, just like the rifle does. You should be trained to deal with heavier recoils if you are supposed to be fighting, but some people have medical problems or are just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
this is true, however that is where training comes in. However, that is a double edged sword. Without training, even pistol caliber SMGs aren't that easy to control. Once you commit to a little bit of training, it becomes a non-issue, or you put it on semi-auto and be quick with the trigger
that just leaves the medically unfit to wield the SMGs They are welcome to it
The MP-44 was generally issued to a complete unit, replacing both Kar98k rifles and MP-40 subguns. In the early trials, it also replaced MG-34 and MG-42 GPMGs, though this was seen as lunacy and stopped quickly.
you are correct sir, I was actually meaning MP-40, I generally think of the MP-44 as the Stg-44 when I write it anywas. I was specifically thinking of how the commaders chose to mix weaponry on the russian front as unit were combined and moved around, then a fe MP-40s sprinkled in with the K98s was the optimal plan. But who knows, maybe they were more looking for a 50/50 mix but didn't have the resources.
But yeah, I agree with your sentiment. At the time, it was assumed that the MG would supply firepower dominance, the NCO's SMG would be used only when close-quarters fighting was imminent and he didn't have the time to command, but had to fight as well. Nowadays, CQB is the order of the day, and the occasional need for longer-range firepower is handled by the advent of the designated marksman rifle (DMR). The Russians have been doing this for years, with each squad having one member armed with a SVD, while the rest had AKs. It worked for them.
Yes that is one interesting thing about the German military vs the US military during WW2, they got by with continuing to use 5 shot bolt rifles because of excellent machineguns and great numbers of them Basically it was riflemen supporting MG units, whereas in the US we had fewer MGs per men, and inferior ones, but the superior semiauto garand, so it all basically boiled down to a wash. Heck our M60 which is still in use in Iraq with some National Guard units borrowed extremely heavily from the MG42 (and should have borrowed more in the way of barrel changes, if not from the MG42 then from someone!) Just think if it had been Garands and MG42s on one side and Browning 8mms and Mauser bolts on the other. (or if some of the early advisers had been listened to and the Garand had been given a 10-12-15 shot detachable box magazine, basically an early M14 (Brass said no, that troops would loose too many of them, even though had they looked at the Lee Enfield and it's detachable 10 or 12 shot mag not being a problem) They also didn't want a mag that protruded.
Some people call the Garand the father of the M-14, I think the Grandfather analogy fits better. But some of the prototypes of the garand, it's father if you will, were closer to the M-14 than the Garand itself was. I guess the M-14 was just like it's Great-Grampa! (except of course no select fire!)
guns.ru says that is "20 x 83.5 mm MG151"
uh, the 20x82mm MG151/20
Not as much as you'd think.
It is nowhere near a 20x102(vulcan) nor 20x110(hispano).
The MG151/20 was know as pretty lack luster compared to the Hispano (brits&US) being 10% faster with 20% more slugweight (more HE weight on target).
The 20x110 was 880m/s, 20x82 was about 800m/s, and the x83.5 claims 720m/s
The Vulcan 20x102 gets 1000m/s+
In game terms though, how much damage?
d20 Modern has a 357mag do the same damage as a 9mm.
So it is only fitting the 20x83 fits at the top of the 12k-29k ftlb calibers for 2d12, from 50BMG at the bottom of the scale to the 20MG151 topping it.
Over 30k would get 4d8 like the Vulcan 20mm get
That would be to fit it to a RAW numbered game.
Houseruling higher damage cannons would probably result in higher numbers, but then we would have to see what damage you are giving the 600NE, 50BMG, 20mmVulcan, 25mmBushmaster, & 30x173 Avenger(Tankbuster)... then we can fit it to the Houserule damage scale you play by.
Heck our M60 which is still in use in Iraq with some National Guard units borrowed extremely heavily from the MG42 (and should have borrowed more in the way of barrel changes, if not from the MG42 then from someone!)
It was basically a hybrid of the FG-42 and the MG-42, using the operating system of the former, and the belt feed system of the latter.
The first prototype, the T-44, shows this quite clearly:
I knew the M60 was a rip off, but I didn't know they were so similar (visually).
And even then, it's referencing an American weapon, since the FG-42 (and thus the M60) was just a revision/update of the American Lewis LMG from WWI.
I suppose when you get down to it, almost all modern guns came from the Needle gun, the first that I know of to use a firing pin. Striker-fired guns still use a firing pin, right? The firing pin is just triggered by something other than a hammer?
I didn't know the FG-42 was unreliable, just that it was too heavy-recoiling for a SMG, too inaccurate for a sniper rifle, too small a magazine for a support gun (though the BAR shared that fault), and too heavy for a standard infantry rifle. Where did the unreliability complaints of the M60 come from?
The lewis was the water-cooled one with a top drum mag, right? What changed in guns so that they could be air-cooled? I know that on plane guns they could get rid of the water cooling because of the speed at which air went past when they were flying, but I don't know how we get to air-cooled guns firing belts of any length from water-cooled guns with drum magazines necessitating some cooling time.
The Lewis was actually air-cooled. The huge barrel jacket contained a series of aluminum fins, and the shape of the flash suppressor actually pulled air through the jacket from rear to front to act as a kind of radiator. By all accounts, it worked pretty well.
As for the switch to air-cooled, it happened in two ways. For fire-support weapons like LMGs, GPMGs and HMGs, the designers generally went for quick-change air-cooled barrels. If your barrel overheats, just put a new one on the weapon and rock and roll. The notion goes back at least to the 1920s with the Czech ZB-26, reaching its pinnacle in the German MG-42. For assault rifles and submachine guns, it was discovered that they weren't used for the kind of sustained fire that necessitated either water cooling or barrel changes.
I suppose when you get down to it, almost all modern guns came from the Needle gun, the first that I know of to use a firing pin. Striker-fired guns still use a firing pin, right? The firing pin is just triggered by something other than a hammer?
Yup. It's a linear striker, rather than a rotating hammer.
I didn't know the FG-42 was unreliable, just that it was too heavy-recoiling for a SMG, too inaccurate for a sniper rifle, too small a magazine for a support gun (though the BAR shared that fault), and too heavy for a standard infantry rifle. Where did the unreliability complaints of the M60 come from?
The FG-42 recoiled too much to be used as an effective automatic rifle, though many accounts I've read say it's not as bad as you'd expect from a 10-lbs 7.92x57mm rifle firing at 900 RPM, due to the efficient muzzle brake and straight-line construction. It wasn't accurate enough to be a sniper rifle, although that had as much to do with the poor-quality ZFG-42 and ZF-4 telescopic sights that were issued with it. It had a 20-round magazine (some early examples had 10-round mags as well), and its lack of barrel change capability meant it couldn't lay down effective suppressive fire.
But it's real drawback was its cost. You could make 4 or 5 StG-44 assault rifles for the time and materials cost of 1 FG-42, and even after the redesign, the FG-42 still required some critical metals that were needed for aircraft production.
I haven't read anything about reliability problems with the FG-42, other than some initial teething problems and accelerated parts wear on the early guns. Most of the paratroops who used them seemed to be very fond of them. I suppose I would be too, if my only alternative was a Kar98k. While I haven't had the opportunity to shoot one, I have held some demilled dummy guns, and the weapon balances and handles well.
The M60's reliability complaints came from the angle of the belt-feed mechanism, as far as I know. I have 50 rounds total trigger time behind one, so my experience is too limited to voice a real opinion. I have heard that you can duct-tape a C-ration can to the side of the receiver and provide a better feed angle for the belt to mitigate some of the issues. Also, like any new weapons system, there are bound to be teething problems. Look how the M16's reputation for finickiness follows it to this day, even though it's as reliable as any other non-AK weapon in the world as long as it's kept lubed up.
Or what?
Is it possible to have a Bullpup or FG42 style weapon as a belt fed?
As Johannnixx mentioned the mod, folks have fewer problems with a modified belt route or hand fed. The taped can relieves a lot of the tightness in that Up & FoldOver going into the gun.
While it may look cool to have 32 feet of belt out of the gun wrapped around you like a mummy... you are gonna spend a lot of time with the tray up clearing stoppages. I ran around with less than a foot hanging out, maybe 15-20rnds, in the #2 position & bolt closed. Just yank the handle and you got enough for 2-3 bursts while you run to somewhere you can flop down & get big belt busy
Tema-
Why would you want to belt feed it?
Looking at the magazine technology we could develope, from Self Indexing Powered SmartDrums, the HeliCoil Calico style, the PivotStick of the P90... when you have dependable 100rnd magazines why mess with the complications (read: additional failure points) of a belt cam-slot & pawl system.
What if they just hit the P90 with the MakeBigger Ray, and it fired 5.56 with 50rnd pivotstick mags. Or hit it again for a 7.62x39 version with a 28" fin-shroud barrel & powder loaded for a longburn
Btw. Sometime soon I'll be having a personal guided tour of the Danish weapon museum (which, I believe is the largest in the world). One of my friends know the manager/director (I don't know the word in english - the guy in charge of the museum). We have about 10 FG42s, and I'm really looking forward to holding one (In Denmark, firearms are extremely restricted, so this may sound weird to you yanks).
Anywayz.
I have another question: was/is the M2 .50 cal ever used by infantry like the M1919 .30 cal? I'm asking because I plan on 'giving' the MGunner of our Alternate Reality WW2 campaign the opportunity to grab one. I know it weighs 84 lb., but I think it could be fun. Especially since the party is split up in two teams: Entry Team aka. Up-Close-And-Personal-guys - Melee & CQB types; and Cover Team aka. Hang-Back-And-Pwn-Nazis-From-Afar-guys - Sniper and MGunner (the Sniper could tote around the 34 lb. tripod).
to hump the m2 BMG it was taken down to the Tripod, the Receiver, & the Barrel for a 3 man carry. The hard part was the ammo.... lots of guys get handed a 85rnd can of .50 to lug in addition to their rifleman loadout.
The 30Browning was light enough to take out on foot for assault / patrol in force. It was carried assembled, ready to slap onto the tripod & loaded. I think that was Shecky Greene's gun in Combat! tv show. Combat! is almost required viewing for anyone going to run a WW2 campaign. The actors did a great job portraying soldiers, cause most of them were in the Korean War.
The lightest for grunts would be the .17BrowningMG
Do you know where I could find Combat!? I don't think it exists in Denmark. Streamed on the net maybe? I know one should buy and not download, but apart from ebay stuff, I don't really see how I could get it.
AmericanLife TV Network (???)
uh, good luck
Do you think I could find and buy the episodes on ebay or something?
Sorry, I have swedish, british, french, norwegian, german and danish channels. And CNN Europe. But no US channels.
Do you think I could find and buy the episodes on ebay or something?
Combat! is on Amazon.com. I'm not sure if they will ship to Denmark or not, but it is available on DVD so if you look hard enough you can find somebody who will. It's region coded but that's easy enough to get around, especially if watching on a computer.
only a beholder has enough eyes to use all that junk at once for +24
Hey, I think I found the barrel!
not important,
I think he has a Bore Light from his cleaning kit in there
No, tissue damage determines how much damage a round does. Energy plays a relatively minor role.
In response to the OP, simply quote the RCMP testing report that showed that the 5.7mm round failed to penetrate deep enough and cause enough tissue damage to be considered effective for use by their officers.
It's a .22 pistol round. It may be hopped up with an armor piercing tip, but it's still a .22. The amount of actual damage it does over the .22lr is negligible.
The 5.7 isn't just an answer looking for a question, it is a worse answer for that question than the 7.62 tokarev, which could punch IIIA with the right loading, and 7.62 is still more than a millimeter less than most people feel comfortable relying on. Enough 7.62s would do the job, so would enough 5.7, but enough .32s would as well, I am pretty sure that was the idea behind the skorpion.
The 5.7 isn't just an answer looking for a question,
That is a real good observation right there.
What was the question that the 5.7fn is supposed to be answering?
Armor piercing small round?
Great, it does pierce armor... but what else does it do? They seemed to forget that small ammo does small damage. I'm not talking smallbore, there are plenty of truely high power smallbore rifles, but just how damaging are you going to be with just a itty-bitty bullet that lacks the weight & speed of a .223 ( a gun that was illegal to hunt deer for lack of decent killing power)
What will they make next, the low velocity NeedleGun? Subsonic dart punches NIJ4 but guys shot thru the heart can drive themselves to the hospital for a few quick stitches? It dont matter how much armor you can punch if the guy that gets hit can still shoot back. As evident by the BowlingBallGun that can kill a guy in NIJ4 without even the "44mm Dent Defeat": That dead guy had his armor work perfectly.
And above all, the claims of the 5.7Uberness are based on one particular slug, not the caliber in whole. I have said it a bunch of times, and will continue to say it:
Put the 5.7fn AP-UberSlug into a 22mag brass and see what happens,
or we could put it into the ubiquotus 5.56x45 M16 brass and really get some performance from it.
Or load 22 AP into sabot for 30carbine. We used to shoot 30-30 Accellerator which was 25(22??) saboted slugs in 30-30 brass. Just bring back the M1 30Carbine with staggerload of 100FMJ & 55APDS for takedown with punch.
Not to mention the logistics nightmare of folks carrying different caliber guns. The 9x33(9x45) carbine I suggested could be a single caliber solution, SabotAP, 124FMJ, 147BoatTail Longballer, 90 SMG/LV load. The SMG/PDW would be a bear to shoot auto with the longballer or hot AP, but anyone with any config from PDW to DesMarksman can pick up a dead guys ammo & shoot it.... perhaps not as well as the specific load for that gun config, but bullets will come out when you pull the trigger. Issue 9x33 AR Variants to all troops, from 6" Pistol/PDW, 16" AR, 24" Marksman and have the ammo load be mission tailored: Take a bunch of Blacktips or Longballs depending on how expected engagement ranges/parameters. Can even be fun to shoot student protesters with .35" rubber balls at 300fps load. (Goggles everyone, I want to see those goggles on)
---
A Romanian AKM with a fake GP30.
---
An antipersonnel mine.
---
The man on the right is braver than me, and for more than one reason.
---
Awesome pictures, especially the two-weapon fighting one. Let me look at my harddisk, see what I can come up with.
A true warrior!
French Felin System. Looks bulky but cool.
Famas Felin again.
Couldn't help but to make one too.
German soldiers with G36 rifles. I can't tell what tank is in the background.
---
Are those pictures of the mine and the guy hoping to lose use of a leg real? I don't see even flags on the ACUs there, which seems odd.
And I just now noticed that the german's guns are unloaded. Still practicing good trigger discipline, though, always nice to see that.
edit: I need to find that marco polo poster and the demolitions one.
). If that Hot Fuzz picture has any veracity, then the "paladin" is basically a lawman.And yes, the mine is real. Ditto for Shotgun Steve. :D
Yeah, in the grand scheme of things, handguns don't have very good stopping power. But, for most civilians, they're the most effective self-defense weapon that can be carried outside the home. I generally don't tote around my AKMS or M4gery on a daily basis, but I do have my 1911 and my J-frame.
In the house, though, I have my 870 loaded up with birdshot to prevent overpenetration into the neighbors' condos. I also have my AKMS ready in case I need to penetrate walls. Yay for fast-opening gun safes.
The G36k is nice, I still prefer the G36C though (visually, as I've never fired anything but a G3).
I really like this G36C, although this specific one is an airsoft.
Is it a shortened longarm or a tiny pistol that's attached with velcro/a holster under the armrest, seat or steering wheel? What makes an effective wheel gun in your opinion?Also, what do you say if there's the off chance a cop pulls you over to search your vehicle?
Hey bitter thorn, what exactly is a "wheel gun"?
Also, what do you say if there's the off chance a cop pulls you over to search your vehicle?
"Wheel gun" is a slang term for 'revolver'. The cylinder spins, like a wheel.
The first pic is disturbingly realistic.
I'm pretty sure it's airsoft. I might be mistaken.
Blending in with the locals, taking a shot.
Getting promoted...Army style!
Testing the Stinger
Hmm, looking at the HK69 and 79, neither of those fits on a picatinny, the 69 is just for separate use like the M79, and the HK79 is underslung on the G3 and 41s, so I guess they might use 203s on 36s, I don't know.
edit: And Raigitsu, I think the AK, landmine, and shotgun steve pictures got larger, I don't think they used to stretch my screen at 1280 x 1024
edit: And Raigitsu, I think the AK, landmine, and shotgun steve pictures got larger, I don't think they used to stretch my screen at 1280 x 1024
Odd, I didn't change anything since posting them...
Are you on a new PC or using a different resolution/monitor?
.But, that's a discussion for another thread. Back to guns!
Speaking of AK training...
). They are very practical, as they can be used both as headwraps, bandanas, and scarves. Anywayzh. The G36 does not use the M203 as far as I know. It uses the AG36.
G36 and G36K use the AG36. The M16 and M4 use the M203.
Kind of bugs me though that certain PC games screw up the H&K
MP5 and MP7 by adding an invisible grenade launcher underneath...
Also, I rarely hear about anything other than high explosive/fragmentation when it
comes to 40mm...are smoke and white phosphorous in use?
. I have a surprise in store for my players, though.---
M203 Training
That, and when they give you HEDP they really want you to use it as All Purpose rather than DualPurpose.
Well, unless you are using it at 500 meters plus. Then the solution is a bigger explosive.
The only slang I know of specifically for revolvers is "six gun" or "six shooter". Ah well, I don't know why I immediately thought of a gun you keep just for your car/truck/van...
I vastly prefer a quality semi-auto to a quality revolver for most applications, the exceptions being hunting (where big-bore autos are hellishly expensive and heavy/clunky) and last-ditch backup guns (where the J-frame snubby still rules supreme).
The .50 AE has a velocity of 1579 fps with a 300 grain projectile and mussel energy of 1568
The FN. 5.7X28 is coming out at 2790 fps and has a projectile of 23 grains and mussel energy of 400.
For prospective
The .45 ACP has a velocity of 855 fps is at 230 grains and mussel energy of 405
The 9X19mm Parabellum velocity of 1299 fps is at 124 grains and mussel energy of 465
What this means is if the strong man has 100 “hit points” and is dead so if he has 20 left he is 80% dead
.50 AE would do 236 killing 2 men and a small boy
5.7X28 would do 14 points
.45 ACP would do 88 points almost a kill he’ll think twice.
9X19mm would do 61 it hits but one might not stop him.
The thing with the 5.7 is it is wicked fast for a hand gun and speed is what goes threw armor a P90 will penetrate a Kevlar at 50 meters same as a 5.56 and that is what it is marked.
I like the 5.7 I have one it shoots grate and it dose what is advertised to armor the P90 is normally full auto so 6 rounds even if the only do “14 points each” will equal a .45 and 8 to 10 will dope some one.
The thing is armor in the real world speed means penetration and the 3100 fps on the 5.56 NATO with a 62 grain projectile the 5.7 is only 310 fps slower that is a very thin amount of mettle that will stop the 5.7 and not the 5.56 NATO. On the other hand the .45ACP and 9X19mm are stopped by class IIA Kevlar. It tacks class IV to stop the 5.7 or 5.56 NATO Kevlar alone wont do it you got to have mettle.
The damage system I used to illustrate this has to do with real world facts and the shooting of live goats in Spain by American researchers.
There is a reason that a 12 gauge hardcast slug is preferred for shooting bears.
The penetration in to ballistic gel has nothing to do with deforming or not deforming it has to do with mass if something has more mass it will need more resistant to stop it then the less massive this is Newton laws of motion.
And 12ga. Slugs or shot are in oz. not grains and yes that’s more. 12ga. 00 buck has 6 to 8 balls in it 00 is around .357" or .357 caliber and have around the same speed as a .357 magnum. So a 12ga. with 00 buck is like empting a .357 mag in to some one. Makeing shotguns in D20 underpowered along with every thing else. If you want realism in guns change weapons to a fixed damage system guns don’t care haw hard you poll the trigger the projectile comes out the mussel at the same speed every time. If its to unbalancing change systems to one that it works in.
I could say something about the FBI and there statistics but I won’t.
Newton laws of motion.
When it comes to mettle it dose and in my post that is what I was referring to? There 3 things that matter with projectiles mass, diameter, and velocity.
By mettle, I assume you mean metal? Looking back, I see what you are referring to. And so you know, it is class III that stops 5.56 or 5.7, IV needs to stop .30-06 AP. IIIA is the heaviest you see with just kevlar, III starts being inserts. Maybe in metal it does, I haven't seen many tests of that, but I do remember seeing a 10mm drill a hole in a steel plate that a .45 mangled before punching through, so you are likely right there. Big and heavy works best for lexan and the like, though. Shotgun slug goes straight through, 7.62x51 just makes cracks, .45-110 from a sharps rifle puts a big damn hole in there.
The penetration in to ballistic gel has nothing to do with deforming or not deforming it has to do with mass if something has more mass it will need more resistant to stop it then the less massive this is Newton laws of motion.
You are oversimplifying, and possibly misapplying those laws. Which penetrates deeper, a thrown knife that hits flat, or a thrown knife that hits blade-first? When a round deforms, it almost always ends up getting larger, making a larger wound channel. That is why JHPs penetrate less than FMJs, they expend the energy faster.
And 12ga. Slugs or shot are in oz. not grains and yes that’s more. 12ga. 00 buck has 6 to 8 balls in it 00 is around .357" or .357 caliber and have around the same speed as a .357 magnum. So a 12ga. with 00 buck is like empting a .357 mag in to some one. Makeing shotguns in D20 underpowered along with every thing else. If you want realism in guns change weapons to a fixed damage system guns don’t care haw hard you poll the trigger the projectile comes out the mussel at the same speed every time. If its to unbalancing change systems to one that it works in.
Loadings are in ounces, individual pellets would be in grains, they are the same system, just grain is used much less in anything else. I usually see 9 pellet loads, but that is close enough to what you said not to make a fuss. I disagree that a shotgun would be like unloading a .357 into someone, because while the same amount of lead would be in them, the .357 would all be going towards where you aimed, the shotgun is impossible to have that amount of precision with, some pellets would likely end up missing anything vital, just causing a bit more bleeding.
Oh, and you want impressive? Try #1 buckshot, slightly more than .30 in diameter, not sure how many it fits in a 2 3/4, but I think in a 3" one it fits 24 pellets. That is like having someone unload most of a PPS-43 magazine into you. Penetration is completely different (7.62 is pretty similar to 5.7, just 75-80 years older, penetrates over 36" in flesh), but it will penetrate deep enough.
I could say something about the FBI and there statistics but I won’t.
Which particular statistics? The ones saying that 12" penetration is the minimum you want? Or are you denying that the tests I linked are valid? They aren't FBI, they are private.
The biggest problem in your first post is that the way it is written suggests that in real life people have some sort of "HP", that you can predict what will happen with each shot. Look up the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, one of those perps should have dropped dead the instant he was shot in the head, he didn't. 1997 hollywood shootout, both of them took way more shots than they should have been able to without stopping. The only reliable way to stop someone quickly is central nervous system damage, and even that isn't 100%. Shot placement is king, size is queen, not getting hit yourself is ace.
The FBI thing has nothing to do with your link but most of the time they make blanket generalizations like the 9mm is the most deadly round gun because more people are killed by it. That is why I use NIJ or other scores. The FBI will use head shots in one study and not the next.
Level IV
7.62 x 63 mm 166 GR, M2 AP 2880 ft./sec. + 30-0
7.92 x 57 mm 156 GR, mild steel core (LPS) 2415 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 155 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary B32 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 184 GR, steel case, armor piercing B30 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 153 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary type 53 2675 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 148 GR, steel case, hardened steel core type 53 2850 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54R mm 147 GR, steel case, mild steel core (LPS) 2723 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 51 mm 151 GR, M61 AP 2800 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 39 mm 120 GR, armor piercing incendiary BZ 2500 ft./sec. + 50-0
7.62 x 39 mm 118 GR, armor piercing incendiary type 56 2500 ft./sec. + 50-0
7.62 x 39 mm 122 GR, steel case mild steel core (PS) 2300 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.56 x 45 mm 62 GR, M855 (SS109 Green tip) 3200 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.45 x 39 mm 53 GR, 7N6 2920 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.45 x 39 mm 57 GR, 7N10 3051 ft./sec. + 100-0
Level III
7.62 x 63 mm 180 GR, SP 2540 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54 mm 147 GR, FMJ 2786 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 54 mm 180 GR, FMJ 2630 ft./sec. + 100-0
7.62 x 51 mm 148 GR, FMJ 2780 ft./sec. + 30-0
7.62 x 39 mm 150 GR, FMJ 2400 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.45 x 39 mm 54 GR, FMJ 3000 ft./sec. + 100-0
5.56 x 45 mm 55 GR, FMC 3000 ft./sec. + 100-0
I have III with out Kevlar and with it it would be IV.
5.7X28 2790 fps so it may or may not be stoped by III
a knife has little speed when compared to a slow firearm knife speeds are normally in MPH not fps.
And yes JHPs slow down faster and transfer more energy but it has little to do with it it is like 2” max difference.
You spelled a slug witch is 1 ounce to 1-1/4 oz. shotguns are very deadly at close range 00 and with a full chock the dispersion is not grate. The 6-9 pellets will hit at all but the same time. I think a short has 6 and it is not guarantied that all will hit any way right. #1 is closer then a 7.62X25 and but that is what you had yes PPS and who is going to stand up to half a drum of that all at once?
It is predictable to a point there always unseen or other facts that why we play yes? Let the dice do something a graze or a lung? PCP or drunk? Hollywood they had armor on and one of them shot him self in the head and I think they had large amounts of morphine in them.
It looks that we agree? Or at least I think so.
If you want realism in guns change weapons to a fixed damage system guns don’t care haw hard you poll the trigger the projectile comes out the mussel at the same speed every time.
Actually, part of the damage in most d20 systems accounts for a bit of variation in where exactly the target is hit. That is to say, the same 9mm round dealing 2 damage may have grazed the head, or hit a limb dead on.
Level also plays a part, particularly how much HP the character has, but HP isn't always purely the ability to soak damage, but to narrowly evade it as well.
As for HP...it really starts being accepted as "heroic fuel" when your character has more hitpoints than a tank
. Think of a Tough Hero 5 with Con 18 and Robust compared to a Smart Hero 10/Charismatic Hero 10 with Con 12: the latter may have more HP, but they probably aren't as "sturdy" in terms of physicality.And armor? Well, I have used the rules as is, but I vastly prefer Armor as DR (with exceptions, like shields) in any event.
No called shots, but Coup de Grace is an automatic crit, which I have always thought of as hitting someplace critical. When you roll really poorly on a critical, you just barely grazed it, or hit one of the less-vital parts. That would be like when someone gets shot in the head and gets himself to the doctor. The issue comes when you get to big enough weapons that if someone got shot in the head with them, there wouldn't be a head left to patch up.
I can see that. At this point though, I just bypass the issue and use Vitality/Wound Points
.How, and when, did that motto appear under my username?
Trappslider is getting us neat little motto's based on funny/catchy things we (Modern Veterans) have said in various posts. For example, I am a plot device! :D
Trappslider is getting us neat little motto's based on funny/catchy things we (Modern Veterans) have said in various posts. For example, I am a plot device! :D
well,its not just the vets,its also those have done great things her on the boards and are still around...and I felt that
"The legacy of the 5-7 must live on!" fit you good,you should see some of the others...
Edit: The Merciless DM definitely deserves a special title :D.
When I see the meaning in that light, I can dig it.
Edit: The Merciless DM definitely deserves a special title :D.
he hasn't been around here much lately..EDIT: and pm me about this issue too from now on
JHPs can do a lot less penetration than even non-AP rounds, in that link I posted earlier, look at some of the standard 7.62x39 rounds compared to the 8m3 124 grain JHPs. Even in pistols, it can make a large difference. Compare this with this the second one has only a tiny bit more energy, but it penetrated about two and a half inches more, on average, and that is before you consider the bullet arresting box that it went completely through, and then far enough that they couldn't find the bullet.
I don't believe even FN claims that the 5.7 will penetrate Class III plate, they claim it penetrates IIIA soft armor, but not hard armor. And that is the AP variation I am talking about, which at least according to wikipedia, is similar to the SS109 in construction, but with an aluminum core rather than lead, and it fires slower, the P90 can only push a 28 grain bullet at 2300 FPS, not anywhere near the amount of speed of anything that goes through Class III plate.
In hollywood, they had armor, but they also took at least ten hits each that actually penetrated flesh, I've heard up around 19 for one, and 27 for the other, those might be including ones that hit the armor. They weren't on morphine, they were on... phenobarbitol, did I spell that right? They took it so they would keep calm, I wonder if it managed to repress the adrenaline, if so, that is impressive, fighting through that many gunshots without adrenaline to kill the pain. One of them did shoot himself, but right at the same time, a shot severed his spine, so it is uncertain whether he committed suicide, or his finger jerked when the spine was hit.
I wonder what quote TS will dig up for me... And ragitsu, only almost two years. I was here when it started, and I assume you were too, being the OP.
I wonder what quote TS will dig up for me... And ragitsu, only almost two years. I was here when it started, and I assume you were too, being the OP.
I dunno....I forgot about you
Guess I'm not memorable enough to get one....
Theres a lot of users that are going to get one..it just takes time to figure this all out..so sit down relax and go play some d20 modern account;)
I wonder what quote TS will dig up for me... And ragitsu, only almost two years. I was here when it started, and I assume you were too, being the OP.
I was speaking of The Merciless DM's Resident Evil d20 thread.
1: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17448686&postcount=531
2: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17448649&postcount=530
3: http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=17448756&postcount=532
Guess I'm not memorable enough to get one....
Can we make that narukagami's motto? :P
Can we make that narukagami's motto? :P
lol...theres a thought....
Can we make that narukagami's motto? :P
I would not be offended. :PI dunno....I forgot about you
Eh, I was gone for a couple months. I guess the gameologists d20 forum didn't really pan out, huh?
My bad, Ragitsu, I thought you were referring to this thread. It has done so as well, I bet I could find a lot of quote-worthy stuff in here. Unless I misremember, this was long enough ago that I barely knew anything about guns, and Razor was still here.
Eh, I was gone for a couple months. I guess the gameologists d20 forum didn't really pan out, huh?
Its still going strong,so it wasn't a total failure
The 5.7X28 normal round is 28 grains and 2790 fps this will go threw class III and not class IV. If there AP is at 2300 fps I would not use it as the only thing the gun can do is defeat armor. That’s why I bought one other wise I’ll stick to my .45ACP or 7.62X25. I have yet to see any class III with a plate other then a plate it’s self with out Kevlar I don’t think the plate is going to work against it.
Interesting note the 7.62X25 can be loaded with a 55grane 5.56 by use of a sabot and will also defeat class III also it makes the TT-33 shoot like a .22
I only learned this after I spent just over $1000 on my FN.I can look up velocity and penetration threw materials if you want it has little to do with what the round is made of do to the physics of shock waves.
I have not been in Ca. for a long time I don’t think I want to go back the law is weird out there like they can lock you up and do shock treatment for no reasons
. But I remember the shoot out and I thought the cop that shot him in the head say that he shot after he was falling but I most likely have it confused with something else. I think the 19 and 28 were hits there chests had about class IV and there arms and legs were class II and III so the 9mm count do any thing but brake an arm or shin bone at best or contusions. Yes you spelled it right.
phenobarbital
Luminal, Solfoton
Pharmacologic class: Barbiturate
Therapeutic class: Anxiolytic, anticonvulsant, sedative-hypnotic
Controlled substance schedule IV
Pregnancy risk category D
Action
Interferes with gamma-aminobutyric acid receptors, blocking nerve impulse transmission in CNS, which reduces motor activity and raises seizure threshold
Sounds like it might deaden some pain I don’t know and did they tack something else with it?
Like the CIA bombing in India a cc of pure LSD in each bomber. That will make any one in to a mindless slave for a week or longer. The company hasn’t had an original thought in years LSD is S.O.P. for them now days.
8mm mauser tends to get loaded pretty soft by most companies, same with .45 long colt (can be like a .44 mag rather than a hotter .45 ACP) and 10mm auto (can be like... well, a 10mm rather than a .40S&W). The load you listed actually seems rather cool, perhaps it was for the older, weaker actions? I see listed handloads giving 200 grain bullets 2800 FPS from a 23.5" barrel, and the WWII era S.m.K.H got around that much with a 176 grain bullet, 27 inch barrel. Modern powder, you ought to be able to do that well with a barrel around 21-22 inches. It punched 18mm of steel armor in those days, I would give it a decent chance to punch class IV. Even if it didn't, considering class IV is usually ceramic, I wouldn't trust it to stop another bullet.
edit: Oh, and I wouldn't want to live in CA, either. Gun laws are not my friend, nor is the weather.
Yes I have loaded the .45 LC hotter then a .454 Casull and shot it out of a Ruger Vaquero it stung a little and had a lot of lift on the gun.
By 8mm do you mean 7.9X57mmJ and 7.9X57mmJS? German WWII load was 154 grain 2835 fps for the J and 226 gr and 2095 fps for the JS and a rounded nose.
If you want a fast load the 7.62X54R in a Dragunov SVD or a Mosin-Nagant almost the same barrel length 150 gr. Ball or SP 2800 fps the ball is Russian military load 147 gr. Ball 2886 fps Russian military as well not bad for a 117 year old round.
If you want AP add a tungsten core it is heaver then steal.
At 2800 will defeat 7mm armor steel WWII standard or 13 mm of aluminum but will not defeat a 3mm boron carbide ceramic.
I have harden steel plates there more durable and cost effective I need new ones that are a little liter like a boron carbide alloy class IV stand alone.
edit: The load is custom to get threw armor with a hand gun
Through = "I went through the tunnel", "I had to go through the usual channels", "It passed through the armor"
Threw = "I threw him the horseshoe", "I threw up a little bit", "She threw me the bag"
---
As for AP ammunition? In my campaign, the MP7 is favored because even though the round itself does little damage, it pierces armor well, making it consistently better than any 9mm firearm against Civil Protection.
Interesting note the 7.62X25 can be loaded with a 55grane 5.56 by use of a sabot and will also defeat class III also it makes the TT-33 shoot like a .22
I used 38/357 ratshot capsules to sabot 123gr AK slug in my 357mag.
Couple big problems at the concept level for making 5.7 special:
- AP is not bigger damage die in d20. Why does 5.7 get a bigger die for using AP ammo when no other gun get more damage for AP ammo. Because it can penetrate armor? No duh, thats its name & thats what it does, and d20 says that grants a plus to hit not a bigger damage die. If you get extra damage for being able to punch armor, then the 7.62 should do 2d10jsp and 2d12 with steelcore. OR we can apply the same d20 AP rules to all calibers, regardles of FN Marketing Hype.
- Checking page1, d20 Coarseness absorbs the gains of 5.7 over 22mag.
Again:
Looking at the 40gr slugs, we see
22Mag @1910
5.7mm @1948
.223/5.56 @ 3800
If you want to do a little math, we can see the 223 can do 16damage(2d8), and the 5.7 should get 1948/3800ths (aka 1/2) of that: 8Damage(2d4). If you wanna do a little more math, you'd see that KineticEnegry is a second degree fuction of Velocity, meaning you sqauer the effect you take on the speed: 1/2 speed means 1/4 energy, means 4damage(2d2)
But come on, if anyone wants to look at the 5.7 vs 22mag, then they realy REALLY need to look at the 9mm vs 357mag,
147gr 9mm @975
124gr 9mm @1100
85gr 9mm @1500
158gr 357m @1200+
124gr 357m @1450
85gr 357m @1700
that is the sad truth, you can load & shoot up 124gr 9mm (355) slugs in a 357mag case with a 357mag powder, and they are just simply 30% faster for the exact same bullet, but no FN Marketing Magic to hype up a set of bad stats for the 357mag.
The game is far too coarse to see the difference in 9mm vs 357mag, so why on earth would the 22mag vs Newer 22Mag(5.7) get anything
I mean, come on... velocity is not the end all determining factor for penertation. Which is a better penetrator with steelcore:
a) 2400fps
b) 2800fps
c) 3200fps
Considering the answer is A, we might have to think there is something as important if not more important than velocity to determine armor punching.
Perhaps it is the diameter/shape/core that is the most important.
Slowest A is the best penetrator using the standard bullet shape, with a hard steelcore as opposed to a fancy aluminum alloy FN AP.
Diameter must be important then, to focus the KE on a small area.
Slowest normal steelcore A is the largets diameter, spreading its KE over the largest area.... theoreticly hurting its penetration more than the others.
What does the slowest fattest standard steelcore A have that the others dont?
Weight
Lots & lots of weight.
Enough weight to punch over 30 inches of RHA steel armor while going slower than a lot of fast or moderate speed rifles. And A was doing this in WW2 while floating
What does 5.7 have none of?
Weight
.... and range of course.
... and barrel length.
But they make up for that with Marketing Budget. Kinda reminds me of the Mage8 Disbelief Armor.
Oldschool doesnt die, it just gets older.
The 5.7 is like a dead/alive cat in a box:
Within the uncertainty paradox of a sealed Schrodinger box,
.223 says the 5.7 is both low-speed AND low-weight simultaneously
I'm oldschool.
Oldschool doesnt die, it just gets older.
and theres your CT..i think...
Must reference everything to the Iowa Battleship
I thought you'd go with
Must reference everything to the Iowa Battleship
OMG..i had forgotten about that
Must reference everything to the Iowa Battleship
I'm oldschool.
Oldschool doesnt die, it just gets older
Weapons locker personified
D20 weapons catalog
Inventor of the Chain gun
Pfffft. He might have invented the chain gun, but I invented the singularity bomb. One messes you up. The other messes you, your family, the biological organisms that are next to your family, and pretty much everything else in the solar system, up... including the sun. ;) :P
but thats expected of you,since you are a plot device...
This is according to the data put out by KP in there 9th edition in 2000. 5.7X28 out of a P90 and it will defeat body armor class III and Kevlar helmets at 50 meters according to them and I have yet to see them wrong. This is the standard military load of FN.
What is the designation? I was reading the stats for the SS190, what I have known as the standard.
By 8mm do you mean 7.9X57mmJ and 7.9X57mmJS? German WWII load was 154 grain 2835 fps for the J and 226 gr and 2095 fps for the JS and a rounded nose.
I'm not positive on the designations, I thought that the JS was the one loaded with the spitzer, and the higher pressure that the earlier mauser actions couldn't take. The specific bullet I was talking about that comes from the beginning of WW2, if not earlier, was the S.m.K.H, tungsten-cored AP round they used on tanks and aircraft, back when tanks had really thin skin. I have confidence that it could be at least that fast from a shorter barrel if you used modern powders, and loaded it nice and hot (if armor-piercing is important, you are in a situation where you can't be picky about recoil from a marksman rifle). You might even be able to find better bullet construction, some countries still use 8mm rifles.
If you want a fast load the 7.62X54R in a Dragunov SVD or a Mosin-Nagant almost the same barrel length 150 gr. Ball or SP 2800 fps the ball is Russian military load 147 gr. Ball 2886 fps Russian military as well not bad for a 117 year old round.
If you want AP add a tungsten core it is heaver then steal.
At 2800 will defeat 7mm armor steel WWII standard or 13 mm of aluminum but will not defeat a 3mm boron carbide ceramic.
At 2800, the S.m.K.H. will defeat 18mm of steel armor, I assume they were using RHA, which was WWII standard, correct?
You are using modern loads for a Dragunov against old loads, or loads that have been toned down in case someone uses a weaker actioned rifle. Like I said, the commercial loads you get are sort of... -P. The M91/30 ought to be able to launch it faster than the dragunov, what with the 28 inch barrel. I wonder, do you have lists of loads that will defeat class IV? It would be much easier to tell where certain loads fell that way. Or even just what the equivalent of Class IV has to be in mm RHA.
I have harden steel plates there more durable and cost effective I need new ones that are a little liter like a boron carbide alloy class IV stand alone.
edit: The load is custom to get threw armor with a hand gun
Yeah, I would rather have steel plates, in my situation. I'm not toting them around all day every day, and it seems like it would be tempting fate to get plates that break. Steel plates would break as well, but slower.
The custom load you are talking about is the 5.7? I thought it was the standard FN load?
TS, I'm sure we could find more possible titles for Backstabbist, but I don't think some of them would go over so well (anti-medic grenade? mcmartyrdom grenade?)
TS, I'm sure we could find more possible titles for Backstabbist, but I don't think some of them would go over so well (anti-medic grenade? mcmartyrdom grenade?)
:heehee
And hey, I've been here a long time too... In a FNG-kinda way.
But I guess since the d20 Modern community has shrunk so much, trappedslider knows us all well enough to give every d20 Modern Forum member a CT... Is that cool or sad? I'm not sure.
Yup, give stabbist "Inventor of body armour" or "Inventor of the Anti-Medic Grenade".
And hey, I've been here a long time too... In a FNG-kinda way.
But I guess since the d20 Modern community has shrunk so much, trappedslider knows us all well enough to give every d20 Modern Forum member a CT... Is that cool or sad? I'm not sure.
Whats really gonna be sad is that when they do relase a new eidtion,we're going to be going into dialy eidtion fights,lol
That'll liven up the place. :P
or kill it...lol
-Oddball
Bring back to life, as in what? Bumping it?
I shouldnt get a CT under my pic cause I am not "still active" here.
heheheh... I forgot about the 'body'armor for vehicles.
Glad you guys found my stuff so memorable.
'body'armor for vehicles.
Is that similar to when Danny Glover put kevlar on his Buick's window in Predator 2? :D
[INDENT] [INDENT]<...> This is modeled by how we dont tie dead bodies to the hulls of our APCs for supplemental armor: Bodies hardly slow slugs bigger than 50BMG down at all.... but they do solve stability & boyancy issues when swimming the vehicle cross lakes.
It takes an engineering mind to spot the loss of Rigor in a Load Bearing Corpse will lead structural compromise. LBC's need contstant rotation with short duty cycle.
"... And Knowing is half the battle"
IF I only use bodies I find that are already dead,
I dont kill nobody,
That means I'm not evil.... right?
And because the whole team will benefit from my actions, that makes it kinda for a greater good.
For some reason my GM didnt see that line of arguement my Paladin was pushing as how it wasnt evil. My paladin was just thinking outside the box[/INDENT][/INDENT]
But come on, if anyone wants to look at the 5.7 vs 22mag, then they realy REALLY need to look at the 9mm vs 357mag,
147gr 9mm @975
124gr 9mm @1100
85gr 9mm @1500
158gr 357m @1200+
124gr 357m @1450
85gr 357m @1700
that is the sad truth, you can load & shoot up 124gr 9mm (355) slugs in a 357mag case with a 357mag powder, and they are just simply 30% faster for the exact same bullet, but no FN Marketing Magic to hype up a set of bad stats for the 357mag.
The game is far too coarse to see the difference in 9mm vs 357mag, so why on earth would the 22mag vs Newer 22Mag(5.7) get anything
[/LIST]
I mean, come on... velocity is not the end all determining factor for penertation. Which is a better penetrator with steelcore:
a) 2400fps
b) 2800fps
c) 3200fps
Considering the answer is A, we might have to think there is something as important if not more important than velocity to determine armor punching.
Perhaps it is the diameter/shape/core that is the most important.
Slowest A is the best penetrator using the standard bullet shape, with a hard steelcore as opposed to a fancy aluminum alloy FN AP.
Diameter must be important then, to focus the KE on a small area.
Slowest normal steelcore A is the largets diameter, spreading its KE over the largest area.... theoreticly hurting its penetration more than the others.
What does the slowest fattest standard steelcore A have that the others dont?
Weight
Lots & lots of weight.
Enough weight to punch over 30 inches of RHA steel armor while going slower than a lot of fast or moderate speed rifles. And A was doing this in WW2 while floating
What does 5.7 have none of?
Weight
.... and range of course.
... and barrel length.
But they make up for that with Marketing Budget. Kinda reminds me of the Mage8 Disbelief Armor.
The .221 Remington Fireball would be a superior choice.
50 gr. @ 2650 a little slower but a lot more mass.
To be honest the D20 modern dos not work well with guns or any thing modern.
I was going to do the 5mm but I could not find it.
Backstabbist has it it’s and it is what I have been trying to explain. Its just a .22 mag. Or .17 no mass other wise .223 would do more damage then .308 this in not the case in any game or real life. The .223 may be faster but has no mass so less damage.
To be honest the D20 modern dos not work well with guns or any thing modern.
Thats why we here on the Modern forums have more houserules individually than the entire D&D forums combined :P.
Actually, d20 Modern works very well with guns and anything Modern. The problem is d20 Modern's firearm rules as written don't work well with common sense. Same applies to many modern things in d20 Modern.
Thats why we here on the Modern forums have more houserules individually than the entire D&D forums combined :P.
now theres a CT "more houserules individually than the entire D&D forums combined"
Course, it is kind of sad how it seems like more than half of that (caliber chart, shotgun rules, weapon locker errata) is just cleaning up after the writers either being heavily opinionated (you can just tell whoever wrote the CRB weapons was a glock fanboy and hated shotguns), or just not knowing what the hell they were talking about (Dragunov 2d8, RPK and RPD 2d10, M16A4 looking like an AK74U), but aside from them screwing up repeatedly, it is a really good system.
Can I get that on a Tshirt somewhere? :D
One thing is range depleting damage the problem is that ranges in D20 are combat ranges not effective ranges. 80feet on a M16A2 it has an effective range of 600 meters even with 4 range categories only 320feet unless I have the range rules wrong.
I am not only complaining I want to see your fixes to these problems.
http://www.megaupload.com/dk/?d=1GHP0M9E
@Nodaisho: I actually have access to a printer that can print on tshirts - and costs me like 4$ + Tshirt per print. So big internet companies and such aren't always necessary. :P
Edit: As for the ranges in d20 Modern, they are completely screwy. An M16 in d20 Modern has a MAX range of 260 metres, which is under half it's EFFECTIVE range IRL (no regular trooper is hitting anything with a -20 to hit). In my houserules, I've implemented -1 to hit and -1 to damage/penetration per RI instead of -2, and I've doubled the RIs of all military-sized weapons (pistols are fairly inaccurate).
---
I would use the caliber damage chart if I DMed a game, but I'm not really a DM-ing type, that requires a bit much planning for me.
Online, I prefer to GM. In person, i'm a much better player.
I'd try again, but then I'd try to make a damage system by blending Mutants and Masterminds and Silhouette and seeing what happens.
I my self like no level no classes.
With D20 some people want the same rule to mean 2 different things.
Do you have an example?
Do you have an example?
One example is the AP Ammo rule:
A) All guns get a better ToHit against armor for AP ammo
B) 5.7 gets a better damage die based on its aluminum AP ammo can penetrate armor
FutureTech has a ripoff of the m202 Flash quad-RL that gets both Link & Battery gains from a Doubling. Any GM tryng to follow Link & Batery rules CANNOT make that weapon, but the book just cast the d20 Future rules aside to made that weapon.
I could ask you waht the hardenss of a material used to make armor is, and you would have to which rule set cause a material has different hardnesses in different rule locations.
Those are cases of the folks that have different interpretations of rules
are the guys that publish the books.
Differnent interpretations at home/internet are like when have to go page after page to decide what happens when its The Cat, The Gunbunny, & the Armoiur. The melee thing inside the armoiur gets to AOO interupt the readied action of the gunner, or does the that activity actually be the trigger for the readied gun action in the first place? We all spent a good number of posts in that Armouiur thread
Differnent interpretations at home/internet are like when have to go page after page to decide what happens when its The Cat, The Gunbunny, & the Armoiur.
I'm guessing "The Cat" is the Fast Hero/Infiltrator type?
Check the archive for the Armouir thread
It covers Suprise, ReadiedAction, AoO and Interupt, and damage for a cat as an improvised Ranged Weapon
Nodaisho, I'll see if I can find my old 'errata' list for Weapons Locker and post it. I haven't been to the old Silven Crossroads site in years, is it finally gone? Shame.
Do I still have my old shotgun and lever/bolt rifle rules around the boards?
.Until every copy of d20 Modern: Weapons Locker has the Five-seveN errata'd, then yes, this thread will live
as will your CT i think
Actualy, my posts have been called abnormal, freakish, sneavious, scarey, and worse...
but I dont recall them ever being refered to as Regular
Here's a nice stock image of an FN Five-seveN.
Oh, wait...
:D
A Desert Eagle (for comparison's sake).
---
And here's something for my buddy NCLanceman :D.
And here's something for my buddy NCLanceman :D.
.Sssssssssh! Not so loud, the Char Op board is right next door!
I'd still pack a good 5"-bbl S&W Model 29 instead. And a BIG FREAKING RIFLE.
I wouldn't worry about the CharOppers coming in here, they start to panic when they have less than a dozen books to use.
If you are in the US you have to be 21 to own a handgun, 18 is for longarms.
If you are not in US and 18 is ok, then go fo it,
shootin is fun and revolvers work just fine with $3 bear slugs or $0.30 plinkers
I had to buy ammo for a buddy that bought a leveraction .44mag rifle,
then the store wouldnt sell him any ammo for it cause it was a pistol caliber and he was only 19
.... cal cracks me up sometimes
I've seen store clerks make a guy sign a form saying he wouldn't use .308 Winchester in a pistol, because he was under 21.
Ah, Fallout. Why didn't they put the .223 Pistol in Fallout 3?
I was thinking a .45 LC revolver, have loads that are up with .44 magnums for bear and mountain lion, and more normal loads for use in any other situation. Maybe buy a reloading press. I'm going to be broke after my 18th birthday.
You'll be doing you part to protect the enviroment, greenpower and all that,
by picking up free brass at the local shootin places.
45lc is a good gun choice, and plenty of reload options,
but you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of 45lc brass lying around.
Rugers used to have a 45ACP swap cylinder for their 45lc.... something to consider.
I'm fortunate in that my state isn't nearly as strict on guns as say, California.
Oh, definately do that.
but you'll be hard pressed to find a lot of 45lc brass lying around.
That is true, for some reason, people don't lose revolver brass so easily.
What models were the replacement cylinders for? And that wouldn't count as a pistol, would it? Since it's just the cylinder?
I know the Blackhawks had them, dont recall if the Redhawks did.
You can find folks dumping their 38/357/44 brass
but there just aint enough 45LC casual shooters that dont care about reloading
do find 45lc brass laying around.
We found so much 38/357 brass that my buddy (a 9mm shooter/loader) bought a 357 and dies just to take advantage of all that brass. 9mm 124gr lead slugs made just fine plinkers in 357 brass
I once met a fellow who carried a .50 Desert Eagle as a daily self defense gun. I thought he was nuts, until he mentioned he lived in backwoods Alaska and was primarily concerned with Grizzly and Polar bears. That, at least, made some small amount of sense.
I'd still pack a good 5"-bbl S&W Model 29 instead. And a BIG FREAKING RIFLE.
I new some guys from Alaska, including a few who lived deep in the bush. They laughed at the Deagle too...but they liked Ruger Redhawks!
Nodaisho
If you are in the US you have to be 21 to own a handgun, 18 is for longarms.
If you are not in US and 18 is ok, then go fo it,
shootin is fun and revolvers work just fine with $3 bear slugs or $0.30 plinkers
Regarding USA rules. It varies in a few states but basically...
Anything and I mean Anything you own under the age of 18 really belongs to your parents. If your parents buy you a car for your 16th birthday and later go bankrupt the car will be seen as part of the parent's recoverable assets.
Okay, putting that aside.
At age 18 you MAY own a firearm. However, a Federal Firearms Dealer cannot sell you a firearm until you are 21.
This means you can be gifted a firearm...or you may purchase a firearm from another private citizen who is not a gun dealer.
Note. It is against federal law for a store to sell handgun ammunition to anyone under the age of 21. However, in most instances there are rifles that use the same ammunition as handguns. Simply stating 'this is for my rifle' makes it legal. Bring along your users manual in case they don't believe you. Once you have purchased the ammo, there is nothing illegal with deciding that you will NOT use the 9mm cartridges you just bought in your hi-point carbine but will instead use them in your Glock 19.
Nit-picking, it isn't all firearms, they specifically state rifles and shotguns to be exempt from the 21 age limit, giving a limit of 18, I believe? Or maybe that is just the most common state age limit for rifles and shotguns.
While we are horribly off-topic (like we ever actually could be off-topic in this thread), how is the supply of blacktip .30-06 these days? I'm planning on ordering a Garand from the CMP soon as I can, and it seems like it would be good to have a couple cans of that stuff lying around in case of emergency.
A nice, comfortable, super accurate .22 pistol
.a common pistol competition.
But then, neither would the 5.7
Good news is,
they have these cute little 3/8th scale targets for cute little pistols to shoot at
instead of shooting the same full scale targets as regular pistols.
200m steel rams is a job for an open sight revolver
...they have these cute little 3/8th scale targets for cute little pistols to shoot at...
If only I could legally get my hands on a VSS "Vintorez", those would be fun targets for 'backyard shooting' at about 300m. I have a feeling you would be a good person to ask about getting a 'thread cutter', backstabbist...any ideas?:D
;) - Sorry about the threadjack...I was just daydreaming.
is this from blade runner?
good person to ask about getting a 'thread cutter', backstabbist...any ideas?
I would say a 1911 racegun 45acp with Pin Grabbers
but I hear they went out of production. They were a wide open hard hollowpoint, with ferocious sawteeth cut into the leading edge ring. They would "grab" a bowling pin with even a glancing off-center hit.... they dont rub to the side of objects
is this from blade runner?
Indeed it is. The .223 Pistol's inventory picture was based on Decker's weapon.
I would say a 1911 racegun 45acp with Pin Grabbers
but I hear they went out of production. They were a wide open hard hollowpoint, with ferocious sawteeth cut into the leading edge ring. They would "grab" a bowling pin with even a glancing off-center hit.... they dont rub to the side of objects
is this from blade runner?
Either way, i'm curious as to where the name came from, as it was never officially spoken or shown in the Blade Runner movie.
Indeed it is. The .223 Pistol's inventory picture was based on Decker's weapon.
Deckard ;).
Like its sister design, the VSS is a select-fire rifle whose stealth owes primarily to two features: its subsonic armor piercing SP-6 round and its barrel acting as a huge silencer. The weapon deviates from the AS in that it includes a standard issue 4
The VSS is nice, is you like classIII weapons.
... or get some Semi civilian model, then its a classII.
just grab a AR clone 300whisper
or have a smith cut a 9mag(9x29) chamber into a 16" 9mm (numrich) AR15, and run those hot 124mag or in Whisper mode 250gr, or Sabot ss109 slugs. You cold drop the other shoe and go full wildcat: cut 5.56 brass to make 9Carbine (9x35)
Silenced weapons are nice, but silent weapons you can actually buy are nicer.
....The VSS is nice, is you like classIII weapons.
... or get some Semi civilian model, then its a classII...
- I suppose I could settle for a semi. It is not like I need to send a full mag of SP-6 downrange. I am looking to get a VSS more for the weapon itself than the performance. I like the ideas though. and the similarities of a 150gr 2000fps wildcat to a 150gr 2000fps 35Rem,
or the similar nature of a subsonic heavy 9mm to the VSS subsonic heavy 9mm,
I would say the 9x35 "9mmCarbine" is far more than a squirrelgun.
Thats the fun part of Subsonic loads
it is just a matter of throwing the slug on the scales, because all calibers are using the same velocity limit: mach 1. So if the VSS is throwing a 200gr slug, just how powerful is that compared to a 45acp 200gr that goes the same speed ;)
The .300 Whisper is a fun-as-hell cartridge, indeed.
The places like CheaperThanDirt or 22Ammo.com are not selling ammo hand over fist by charging higher prices than local retailers.
Perhaps your question is
How commonly is 300whisper sold at overpriced local stores compared to getting it at a discount on the internet?
Heck, I had a hard time finding 35Rem at a bunch of local places.
But then, I dont see the classIII VSS being sold at Walmart either.
You aren't a patron of brick and mortar gun shops anymore?
Wood and sheetrock tend to be more cozy. Most stores are losing their usefulness as almost anything can be found online with out the hunting around and with consumer reviews, all from your own home.
I'd rather have an AR in .300 Whisper with an integrally suppressed upper. Then you could hot-load it for long-range work, or cold-load it for quiet work. Plus, you could still use regular magazines, and a regular lower.
The .300 Whisper is a fun-as-hell cartridge, indeed.
I think the point of the VSS is largely the AP capabilities, besides the looking cool. Is it legal to reload .300 whisper with AP? The AP laws confuse me.
The AP laws generally are about pistol calibers.
It's weird how it works, though. The 7.62x39mm is considered a 'pistol' cartridge (due to the AK pistols out there), and AP ammo is banned from import (try finding the old Chi-com steel-core **** anymore, though it was never all that good in terms of terminal ballistics anyway). 5.45x39mm, however, is just fine. I bought a case of Russian surplus steel-core at the last gun show. 5.56x45mm M855 'semi-AP' ball is fine, though there are several AR pistols out there. I don't think there's anything against .30-'06 M2 AP ammo, or 7.62x51mm NATO ammo (though I'm unsure about that last one).
So, are there heavy AP .308 bullets out there? I guess even if there isn't, the ammo availability is similar to 9x39 ammo availability, huh?
check thisforum thread, about 8 or so down for a text on AP fed law
anybody selling Pulls of that sucker yet, for loading in 223, 22x39PPC or 22-250 .... or 22/45 1911?
Wood and sheetrock tend to be more cozy. Most stores are losing their usefulness as almost anything can be found online with out the hunting around and with consumer reviews, all from your own home.
I doubt that person to person interaction will ever be fully phased out, though.
The AP laws generally are about pistol calibers.
There are some laws on the books with regards to pistol ammunition not being allowed to have jackets beyond a certian thickness/percentage of bullet by volume, etc etc.
The BATF's official position is that because ANY cartridge can be fired in a handgun (which you can make by taking a rifle and hacksaw and removing the stock) it's policy is to apply this rule to ALL ammunition.
I doubt that is the intent, and possibly with a cadre of lawyers, a fat bankroll, and 5 years of time you might eventually force the courts to correct the BATF's interpretation, but until that point, that's what we have.
cause it would just be arguing a tangent,
and I know how we here at the Modern board strive to stay focused on the thread topic;)
:DSS109 .224 62gr Projectile "ball" / "FMJBT"
(pic at AR15.com)This is a mockery of the terms Ball and FMJ due to the multiple separate core components/materials.
The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel core inserted, fired at a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 m
so, regarding the 5.7FN slugs
Along with the AP aluminum alloy core slug,
it can use the SS109 slug, which is not an AP slug.
... despite having a steel penetrator in it specifically to pierce armor helmets, we dont call it Armor Piercing because there is a bit of lead in the core along with the steel to pierce armor. So, the ammo that has a chuck of steel in it specifically to penetrate helmets is not called Armor Piercing, without regard to if there is a pistol for it. Where as the aluminium alloy AP illegal 5.7 slug would be perfectly legal in a 22-250 or 222mag (and insanely effective due to the likely doubling of velocity from those calibers over 5.7x28)
and Yes Virginia,
these are standard size .224 slugs for loading in everything from .223 to 22PPC(220russian) to 22-250 or 22-06, including 5.7FN
5.56 Steel helmet penetrator SS109 is not AP
5.7 Aluminum (which fails 5.56 BALL helmet penetration test) is
7.62 Steel is
30-06 Steel is not
simple, right?
Now, we are focusing on calling it AP in determining if just normal folks can buy it legally. You are allowed to make your own bullets, but you are not allowed to make AP bullets... which brings in the pesky "definition of AP" and the silly pistol & core shenanigans
So, which ammo is Lic+1 and which are Res+2... and why are some 5.7 Mil+3
Who knows, spin the big wheel of laws and takes your chances
for instance, I mentioned the rules about having too much of a copper jacket, yet there are 100% copper bullets out there and they are fine legally. (0-29% = legal, 30-99% = illegal, 100% = legal)
Also, some steel cored ammo simply has the steel in there to save weight, save money, or because it makes the round tumble more. However, most people lump steel core ammo as AP ammo rather than restricting it to hardened steel core.
Of course, this also feeds into 'why worry about how thick the copper jacket is on a lead bullet when there is a lot less restriction on hardened steel core ammo, which is much more effective"
then, there are a lot of hunting rounds constructed for deeper penetration which while they are not nearly as effective as 'hardened steel core true AP ammo' are still more effective than your generic run of the mill FMJ projectile. Just because something isn't made to penetrate armor specificy, doesn't mean it won't do a real good job on it. (example, 257 weatherby)
And a lot of AP ammo isn't all that great really at being AP. Take even the best 5.7mm AP ammo (the stuff supposedly not available to civilians) how does it stack up against your average 30-06 cartridge for AP? not so well, so obviously restricting the 5.7mm will have no impact on someone selecting a gun for a crime who is calculating in the need to overcome bodyarmor.
It's like writing a guy a parking ticket while he is murdering someone inside the car.
There are some laws on the books with regards to pistol ammunition not being allowed to have jackets beyond a certian thickness/percentage of bullet by volume, etc etc.
The BATF's official position is that because ANY cartridge can be fired in a handgun (which you can make by taking a rifle and hacksaw and removing the stock) it's policy is to apply this rule to ALL ammunition.
I doubt that is the intent, and possibly with a cadre of lawyers, a fat bankroll, and 5 years of time you might eventually force the courts to correct the BATF's interpretation, but until that point, that's what we have.
From law.cornell.edu, U.S. Code collection (feb13,09)
§ 921. Definitions: Title 18 of the US Code as currently published by the US Government reflects the laws passed by Congress as of Jan. 3, 2007, and it is this version that is published here.
[INDENT]CFR 18:44 §921 a) Definitions
[INDENT](17)
(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
[INDENT](i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
[/INDENT](C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device. [/INDENT][/INDENT]
So, we see the terms "which may be used in a handgun" and "intended for use in a handgun" as to exclude rifle ammo. The AG has made already a few judgment calls on what calibers are and are not specifically considered handgunable. Russian 7.62x39 is, but russian 7.62x54 is not, nor is 30-06
To wit:
http://www.rkba.org/federal/batf/mirror/arprammo.txt
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, February 2, 1994
Over the past several years, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms (ATF) has allowed the importation and commercial resale
of 7.62 x 39mm steel core ammunition based on the fact that
there were no handguns in commercial channels capable of
chambering this ammunition. Investigations conducted by ATF
have concluded that such handguns are now commercially available.
The test of if ammunition is for a handgun
is hinged on if there is a "comercially availible" handgun, rather than hearing about a guy that knows a guy who's cousin's sister dated a guy that heard about a gun like that.
Also, the law does not prohibit buying it, only selling it. Possession is not a violation. ;)
it dont really mater if the Fed says whether or not its Res+2
if the state the PCs are in say its Illegal+4,
or if they are fighting Modern Pirates and AK's are sold at open markets.
Its a game of fiction
the GM can just handwave a decent set of AP Handgun Ammo laws
Its a game of fiction
the GM can just handwave a decent set of AP Handgun Ammo laws
You could say that the GM is dedicated, but aren't all the laws taken care of by purchasing the weapon in the first place (Lic +1, Res +2, Mil +3, Ill +4)?
Oh, and Tema69, I thought you'd get a kick out of this video. It shows the H&K MP7 in action ;).
Is .308 AP ammo considered +0, +2Res, or +4Illegal in your game?
How about 30-06 AP?
How about 5.56 Steel Penetrator ammo?
How do you decide?
Do you make a simple rule for the players,
If you have a pistol, the AP ammo is +3Mil or +4 Illegal.
or
do you contact BATF and DOJ and state AG's to find out what the real laws are... and for some left coast states you need to do it twice a month. Then, call back the next day and get a different answer from someone else at the same office.
The +1 Lic for a Baretta9mm in no way permits illegal AP Handgun Ammo to be purchased. Now, if you had a Camp Carbine Rifle, then the AP ammo for that is... uh.. illegal because your rifle is a pistol... uh pistol caliber. Just like 7.62x39, 308 and 30-06... oops, not 30-06, but yes to 45-70 rifle
This is about the legality of a specific style of ammo, "AP",
as it pertains to calling a 45-70 shell "Handgun Ammo" and illegal +4
even as you are loading up your 45-70 rifle.
SO
as GM, you can handwave common sense into your game:
If none of your players has a AKpistol, then you can allow 7.62x39 AP to be +0 rather than +4Illegal
Ragitsu
Is .308 AP ammo considered +0, +2Res, or +4Illegal in your game?
How about 30-06 AP?
How about 5.56 Steel Penetrator ammo?
How do you decide?
Do you make a simple rule for the players,
If you have a pistol, the AP ammo is +3Mil or +4 Illegal.
or
do you contact BATF and DOJ and state AG's to find out what the real laws are... and for some left coast states you need to do it twice a month. Then, call back the next day and get a different answer from someone else at the same office.
I put more detail into the firearms, but haven't really done much in terms of ammunition. Thus far, all AP ammo is just AP ammo and not a specific brand or licensed standard.
But you have given me some food for thought. If I ever get that granular on ammo, I should consider switching the PDC modifier around as the situation permits.
Its good to be king.
Its.... beautiful.
Spycraft 2.0 has amounts like 1d8+2, 1d10+1, 2d4+1 (AP 4), 2d6, 5d4 (12 gauge), 4d4+2/19-20 (7.62mmx51) and so forth, which I feel helps distinguish most calibers from one another.
Oh, and some Range Increments definitely need increasing!
Mmmmm, automatic grenade launchers and an Eagle A-III pack...
What makes this particular type of pack stand out?
or is part of the T&E missing?
What makes this particular type of pack stand out?
They're built like tanks, they last forever, and they're well thought out. I have one that's a few years old, with exterior MOLLE webbing, and it's the best mid-size rucksack I've ever owned.
They're built like tanks, they last forever, and they're well thought out. I have one that's a few years old, with exterior MOLLE webbing, and it's the best mid-size rucksack I've ever owned.
On a somewhat related note, it seems like clothing from the 1990's was much more durable than what we wear today. I don't know if that applies to military field gear as well, but that's my observation.
then they issued us the new 'summer' ones with RipAim (aligns tears along the grid) that I could sweat a collar out withing a year
Here's a picture of an anti-aircraft round. I find the construction especially cool
.http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=987312&page=2, starts post 49
It calls to the Cheney Factor:
it dont matter how many pellets you get hit in the face by,
if the pellets are super tiny.
Kinda like 3mm cylindrical birdshot.
The pellets are dispersed by a tiny bursting charge at the back of the munition that breaks the casing,
and relies a lot on the rotation of the munition from the rifled barrel to centrifugally spread the pattern,
and uses the forward velocity of the munition as the forward velocities of the pellets.
This is completly subpar compared to the artilery shell that dumps dozens of grenades in a similar way.
In a place that would earn you real profit, I mean. Your efforts here are appreciated all the same.
What's the hassle with the FN Five-Seven anyways? It uses the same cartridge as the P90, and I don't see anyone complaining about that one. UMF stats it out at 2d8 damage.
See the first 5 pages of this thread.
What's the hassle with the FN Five-Seven anyways? It uses the same cartridge as the P90, and I don't see anyone complaining about that one. UMF stats it out at 2d8 damage.
Well, if we wanted to stat a gun
we can look at similar guns and use stats similar to those.
One way to do that is to look at the caliber to figure the damage.
In most cases that works... to make stats for a new .223 rifle we look at existing game stats for other 223 rifles. So if Rem or Colt make a 5.7 rifle we would be looking at the existing 5.7 numbers to figure its damage.
However, just because a 50BMG gets 2d12 out of a 30-40" barrel doesnt mean we give the 50BMG 4"derringer the same 2d12 damage. Technically, there is not even enough room in a 4" barrel for the whole round of ammo.... almost the entire bullet will be outside the barrel, and that can really cause your muzzle velocity to drop by 90-98%
So, since we want to stat a 5.7PISTOL, and there are no existing 5.7pistol stats to compare it to, we have to look at the actual bullet speed & weight to fit in in with other pistol bullets & weights.
And it is a pretty sweet match for 22mag.
about the same weight about 10-20% faster
It is not a good match for 5.56x45
50% less weight at 30% less speed
If you made a 5.7 bullet go 50% faster, it would then be HALF the power of a 223.
If you made a 22mag go 15% faster, it would be MORE powerful than 5.7
that sounds like it should be treated like a 22mag, not a 5.56
The first 2 or 3 pages of the threads have the weights & speeds broken down with hard numbers for 22mag 7.7 & 223
Penetration
The hype to give 5.7 the high damage is based on how well the aluminum slug can penetrate a level2 vest. Ok, I accept that the 5.7 AP ammo is good at piercing armor. However, in the d20 mechanic we do that by stating the gun with STANDARD BALL ammo and then adding +2 ToHit for AP Ammo, not +1DieSize Damage.
The rule is to give +2Tohit for AP, and they chose to simply break their rule for 5.7
When using normal ammo, the gun has poor performance (22mag), so they chose not to stat that gun the same way we stat all other guns so it can have better loooking numbers.
-DF
that started out as an investigation as to how the numbers for the 5.7 compare to other calibers numbers.
If you have a reason to think a pistol in 5.7 should do 25%-50% more damage than a pistol in 22mag
we would like to hear what info you have.
What's the hassle with the FN Five-Seven anyways? It uses the same cartridge as the P90, and I don't see anyone complaining about that one. UMF stats it out at 2d8 damage.
Let's face facts here.
The gun probably got a (comparatively, at least) higher damage rating than it should have because of a little bit of favortism and popular culture hype. If you look at all the statistics presented here or otherwise, there's no real way it could do the same "damage" as a .44 Magnum or .50 AE Desert Eagle (both of which are 2d8). Also, take a look at the katana when you have the time ;).
Now, you could argue that since the system is cinematic-realistic, it has no real obligation to preserve any sense of accuracy when dealing with how a weapon is statted out. The problem with this is that if you compare all the other firearms in the Core Rulebook to one another, they are far more balanced than the anomaly that is the FN Five-seveN.
If nothing else, I hope this thread gets noticed by those in charge of the next edition of d20 Modern, so that it doesn't happen again.
If you have a reason to think a pistol in 5.7 should do 25%-50% more damage than a pistol in 22mag
we would like to hear what info you have.
The fact that it's cooler and more hyped is a good enough reason to me.
Seriously - the damage value is a part of a game mechanic that allows unarmoured people to survive point-blank shots from firearms. Hell, with the right numbers on your sheet you can even shrug off multiple shots from a tank.
Personally I'd prefer to see less diversity in firearm statistics and make it easier to pick a gun that you like for your character rather than simply running through the book looking for the one with the biggest numbers.
-DF
Seriously - the damage value is a part of a game mechanic that allows unarmoured people to survive point-blank shots from firearms. Hell, with the right numbers on your sheet you can even shrug off multiple shots from a tank.
under that logic, the 22mag and the 22lr should do 2d8 as well
along with the 9mm and 45 getting 2d8
If we dont give the tiny ammo guns tiny damage, what would get tiny damage?
But they do give 22mag sized ammo the 2d4,
so why would one 22mag pistol get 2d4 while the other 22mag get 2d8?
Tell you what, I'll let you stat this slug here:
.224" 40gr 1900fps Softpoint
does that get 2d4, or 2d8
cause it came from either a 22mag or from a 5.7.... and I aint telling you which till you tell me how much damage it does
The fact that it's cooler and more hyped is a good enough reason to m
if we statted guns by Coolness,
the 1911 would be doing BMG damage
.Personally I'd prefer to see less diversity in firearm statistics and make it easier to pick a gun that you like for your character rather than simply running through the book looking for the one with the biggest numbers.
It is possible to have both diversity and balance. See Spycraft 2.0.
The simple solution is to not use a FN57 to do more damage then a Colt45,
but to use a generic Medium Pistol 2d6 and then call it a FN or a Colt or a Ruger or whatever you want because the NAME doesnt change the stats
?pistols ftom 2d3 upto 2d8
Rifles from 2d8 upto 2d12
BMG for 2d20
The key is, all 2d8 guns have the same stats... there isnt one that is just smaller and higher ammo for no reason
2d6
1d6+2
2d8+1
4d4+2
1d8+1
and so forth to give bullets higher base damage, with a little less randomness in the final damage roll. Heck, why can't some rifle rounds have an inherently higher critical range?
while the 1d8+1 DTap would be pretty sweet.
4d4+2 is far less likely to get Max damage than a 1d6+2 gun
Cannons that do 10d12 are very very unlikely to do just 10points.. and just 1 in 10billion odds of rolling max damage... I think its 99% likely to do 90 or less on 10d12
Guns need to stick to the 2dX plan to fit the +1Die DTap / +2Die Burst stuff.
When you start giving +1Tohit to all of one brand, or +1dieszie to a hype caliber, with no stats detriment to balance it.... you get Uberguns that are smaller than magnums, hold more ammo than magnums, but do magnum damage.... that cant use real wolrld weights & velocities to support getting magnum damage
doubletap with a 4d4+2 gun would suk
while the 1d8+1 DTap would be pretty sweet.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Having said that, I hope it makes everyone realize why Double Tap and Burst Fire are borked as is. You're hitting with two bullets, but do 1 1/2 damage with the former, and hitting with three bullets, but doing 2/3 damage with the latter. Huh?
4d4+2 is far less likely to get Max damage than a 1d6+2 gun
The closest equivalent in terms of damage is the 7.62mmx51 NATO round. In d20 Modern, it's 2d10 [20/x2]. In Spycraft, it's 4d4+2 [19-20/x2].
d20 Modern NATO = 2-20 (Average 10-11)
Spycraft NATO = 6-18 (Average 10-11)
I'm willing to sacrifice 2 less damage if it means the minimum and critical rate is better. Also, the more levels you gain, the more class abilities and feats start to balance out with the weapon you're using.
---
There are other factors that balance out a weapon in Spycraft besides outright damage, such as the critical range (which can vary beyond 20/x2), ability to add upgrades, size (a bonus to conceal which goes a little beyond d20 Modern's way of handling it), recoil rating, weapon qualities (Accurized, Bulky, Fragile, Threaded Barrel among others) and a few more. WOTC could take a page from AEG and make the next generation of firearms stats a little more fleshed out without sacrificing ease of (player) use.
Not only does 3d4 have a higher MIN damage than 1d12,
it will actually get low damage far less frequently:
3d4 is 16% likely to roll 5 or lower
1d12 is 42% likely to roll 5 or lower
Another way would be like I said about Explosives:
Each pound does 1d10 x RE
army engineers use this in their demo calcs like timbercutting P=d/40 to get Pounds TNT and use RE to find how many pounds of what you have to equal that TNT charge>
Just have gun stats list a single Max damage number like 12 or 17
and then the players roll d100% x MaxDmg to see that <71>% x 12 = 9
backstabbist, have you ever used the Vitality/Wound Point system? It allows a PC to have all their "heroic fuel" in the form of Vitality Points, but their base physical durability in the form of Wound Points doesn't change, save for a Constitution increase or the odd ability/feat. If a PC suffers a critical hit, then some or all of an attack's damage goes straight to their Wound Points. In my experience, it helps make battle both feasible and a thing to avoid rushing headlong into.
However, body armor is still effective. Ditto for cover
.
Mini-bump.
Imagine the carnage of squeezing off a ripple4 from each 5.7Pod at an infantry column @800m
Mini-bump.
See the d20 modern bachelor as he travels to work or play;)
But a 5.7mm pistol taking one down is stretching it.
Helicopters with guns that engage at 500-1500m dont lose gunfights with pistoleros,
and certainly explode up your AO real good with them Hydras at 1000m
But since the 5.7mm round does the same damage as a 5.56mm NATO round
the 5.7fn does not do the same damage as 5.56 at 300m,
moreso at 500-800m..... can a 5.7 even make it out that far with a lob?
The heli wont be flying fast.
It will be hovering 500' up 1000m away so it can shoot you with easy while your bullets cant reach it
The FN 5-7 in Weapons Locker does 2d8 damage.
That's all I was saying.
The FN 5-7, as is, actually stands a darned good chance of penetrating (by the rules) helicopter armor.
Once again, showing how broken the damage rules are. Not just with the 5.7mmFN round but with firearms in general.
There's a reason the M82A2 (the bullpup .50 AMR designed for shoulder-fired use) was designed though, it was designed to take out helicopters still in the air.
During the 1970s, NATO members signed an agreement to select a second, smaller caliber cartridge to replace the 7.62 mm NATO. Of the cartridges tendered, the 5.56 mm was successful, but not the 5.56 mm loading (M193 Ball) as used by the U.S. at that time. Instead, the Belgian FN SS109 loading was chosen for standardization. The SS109 used a heavier bullet with a steel core inserted, fired at a lower muzzle velocity for better long-range performance, specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 m
5.7 is not anywhere near as good at penetrating a helmet at 600m
cause it cant reach 600m
you may notice that the direction of travel is DOWN like falling off a cliff, not across, past 200m
ok, yes, I know you can call a FO and have him walk in your artillery style 5.7 lobs to get near a 600m target.... but they impact like a glorified pellet gun
. Oh, and this doesn't account for the fact that a great deal of FN 5-7 wielders are ninja-types that love to use Hide and Move Silently.
Superior firepower creates superior ambitions.
despite what the mathematical numbers and physical testing show time & time again.
All one has to do is
ignore the theoretical shortcomings,
and the physical testing demonstrated shortcomings,
and declare it a good caliber that just requires suspension of physics and mathematics
Maybe the 5.7 is a good caliber,
despite what the mathematical numbers and physical testing show time & time again.
All one has to do is
ignore the theoretical shortcomings,
and the physical testing demonstrated shortcomings,
and declare it a good caliber that just requires suspension of physics and mathematics along iwth common sense
fixed:P ;)
Probably because they just went by whatever WotC did instead of looking things up themselves.
Game Masters reading Weapons Locker is bad enough, but I shudder thinking of Game Designers reading it
!Also listed as a Heavy Pistol is the Berreta 92, the H&K P7, USP and SOCOM, S&W M&P 10, and basically everything Glock ever made. Apparently, everything over a .22 is a Heavy Pistol.
Does anyone here know of any systems with first or third party stats for the FN 5-7? If so, we can see which companies got it "right" and which are horribly off the mark.
But that would be an interesting question.
.At the same time, I never have understood why the Beretta 92 has a 40' range increment in the core rulebook, or why the Glock is a Mastercraft weapon. Glocks are the AKs of weapons. They're crude, but reliable as all hell. Berettas are nice, but no nicer than a Sig 226, HK P7, or old-school CZ-75. This is coming from a guy who uses a Beretta 92 as a daily carry gun.
At the same time, I never have understood why the Beretta 92 has a 40' range increment in the core rulebook, or why the Glock is a Mastercraft weapon. Glocks are the AKs of weapons. They're crude, but reliable as all hell. Berettas are nice, but no nicer than a Sig 226, HK P7, or old-school CZ-75. This is coming from a guy who uses a Beretta 92 as a daily carry gun.
Best as I can tell, the designers were going for a little stat variety in midst of all the game balance. However, it backfired, as the Beretta 92 is better than most of the other Core Rulebook pistols.
But there is the possibility the designers also watched a lot of late 80's/early 90's action films
.Best as I can tell, the designers were going for a little stat variety in midst of all the game balance. However, it backfired, as the Beretta 92 is better than most of the other Core Rulebook pistols.
But there is the possibility the designers also watched a lot of late 80's/early 90's action films
Are those the ones with the teflon-coated cop killer bullets and the plastic Glocks that are completely undetectable by metal detectors being wielded by misunderstood urban youth of assorted colors who just needed one good teacher to understand them while they hold a skyscraper hostage for terrorists who turn out to be in it for the money and get tragically shot at the end by the cop three days from retirement because he's getting to old for this s
when their diplomatic immunity gets revoked ? Cause I really liked those movies.
I never have understood why the Beretta 92 has a 40' range increment
They did that to make sure nobody would ever want a 357magnum instead of 9mm
.someone made mention of the 357 getting better RI than 9mm to represent its Magnumism
and all its derivitives and similar tables for better damage numbers
Just noticed,
but I would think a 2d8-1 would be cool
cause I dont like the idea of a 3 minimum damage pistol
and it is plenty reasonable to consider a minor glance as a 1hp wound
would also apply to .4" and higher rifles, right?
Which certainly would make one think a shotgun would have even more minimum damage
and that is one of the most important parts of stating up an item,
not just trying to pick a number based on that item, but to fit that item in relation to its companions.... something RAW dropped the ball bigtime with the 50BMG. Due to RAW being hastey to place BMG at 2d12 they completely eliminated the MagnumRifle class of weapons, the 350 375 416 460 etc that need to do more than 30-06 but less than 50BMG
8d4 -7 (1-25)
you have any idea how freakishly rare getting a 1 is with that bell curve on steroids?
Getting a 1 on a d4 is 25%. Rolling EIGHT 1's on 8d4 is 0.25^8 likely
... and on the otherside, getting near max damage is also really rare
you are 99.256% likely to get below 21 on 8d4-7
you are 99.256% likely to roll above 5
you are 0.014% likely to roll 2 or lower
Funny, back in the day I once started a thread about increasing the damage of large caliber weapons, especially .50 BMG. It was not well received, as back then apparently everything was perfectly logical and balanced.
True genius is rarely recognized in it's own time.
?that is clearly against the 5.7
cause the 5.7 is a round with little energy
The round is small light and travels incredably fast, the velocity is what gives it it's large wounding capacity.
The grains tha tthe 5.7 shoot are around 50 +/-. The .44 and .50 are at least double that at a minimum. If memory serves me well the semi-wadcutters I loaded were around the 100 grain area.
The .44mag or .50AE of the desert eagle IMHO would be a round with greater wounding/leathal capacity. Those rounds are not limited to the DE by any regard.
Does it also have firearm rules?
It must. We all know Conan is actually the terminator sent to the wrong time period.
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"Are you John Connor?"
and changed his name to Chuck Norris
(sure, chuck may be shorter, but Chuck is so good at Disguise he can even do that)
It turns out GURPS 4th Edition has both the Desert Eagle and FN Five-seveN in another supplement (High Tech).
However, this system actually represents them fairly faithfully: the Desert Eagle does more damage, while the 5.7mm round punches through armor fairly well.
Update.
It turns outGURPS 4th Edition has both the Desert Eagle and FN Five-seveN in another supplement (High Tech).
However, this system actually represents them fairly faithfully: the Desert Eagle does more damage, while the 5.7mm round punches through armor fairly well.
thats because GURPS is modeled on real pyshics instead of abstractions:P
It that lil bullet only gets 10" into exposed Gel, and that is considered substandard,
wouldnt it have horrible terminal performance after expending itself punching the vest?
I think the really sad part of all this
is the way we have the technology for next gen AP ammo, AlAlloy, in the 5.7 AP
but FN is not permitting its proprietary AP tech to be used in other calibers, or even selling their slugs to be used in .223 for SuperPenetrators.
IMHO, that is just FN trying to hold the classic Museum Fight:
5.7FN is as good as .223
As for the Gurps 50 & 5.7,
NIJ ratings consider a 44mm dent in the armor to 'defeat' the armor,
just as exiting the inside of the armor is a defeat.
50AE can seriously dent some armor and give you a hospital tier bludgeoning,
but just how much umph is left in a 5.7 after 'penetrating' a NIJ-II ... its already darn near a pellet gun before it dealt with the vest
As for the Gurps 50 & 5.7,
NIJ ratings consider a 44mm dent in the armor to 'defeat' the armor,
just as exiting the inside of the armor is a defeat.
50AE can seriously dent some armor and give you a hospital tier bludgeoning,
but just how much umph is left in a 5.7 after 'penetrating' a NIJ-II ... its already darn near a pellet gun before it dealt with the vest
By the numbers (the average), there pretty much won't be enough damage (energy) for it to go through the other side of a vest, and certainly nothing else even if it manages to do that.
---
backstabbist, while you were discussing just how far 5.7mm is able to punch through vests, I became interested to know if you've heard of the 4.6x30mm round. Have you?
2.1g SS190 5.7 mm: 538 Joule, 397 ft·lbf (fired from P90)
- Energy transfer through body armor at 50 m (1.6 mm titanium + 20 layers of Kevlar) - 180 J
- Energy transfer through body armor at 100 m (1.6 mm titanium + 20 layers of Kevlar) - 65 J
so,
of the 540j energy out the barrel,
only 65j is left inside the armor to hurt ya
As far as I can tell, CRISAT falls into NIJ-IIIA
And we once again re-affirm this caliber is little better than squirrelgun ammo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53xCnIDyFqk
.
Alright guys, i'm heading down to the firing range. Anyone want to come with me? I'll bring the drinks
!what you & 4 buds should do is get 5 lanes of fire with iron sights,
and have a sloshball inspired BierSchutzen.
You chug a pint of Bock,
load 5 rounds, rapid fire (bolt action) them at 100',
any 'miss' you are out,
repeat
First to fire all 20 rounds is the winner (you get a beer)
stage II is the JagerSchutzen, and no, its not about hunting ;)
Do a shot, Take a shot... Do a shot, Take a shot
Mayhaps we both have different concepts of "target shooting" in mind? Still, you're welcome to come along, backstabbist, so long as you don't heckle the other patrons of the range.
Too much ;).
In any case, the winner gets a free drink (as you suggested), but the loser has to run a campaign with d20 Future rules...unedited!
Interesting.
Mayhaps we both have different concepts of "target shooting" in mind? Still, you're welcome to come along, backstabbist, so long as you don't heckle the other patrons of the range.
Too much ;).
In any case, the winner gets a free drink (as you suggested), but the loser has to run a campaign with d20 Future rules...unedited!
*gets out the d20 future book and then burns it* I can't run what i don't have
.Not to worry: I have received a dumpster full of a warehouse's old d20 Future books :D! Apparently they needed to make room and were clearing out some of the unsold stock
ARGH!...*Sniffles and goes off to prepare the game*
a Herd of cows
a Gaggle of geese,
a Dumpster-full of d20Futures
Bad- my car's AC died
VeryBad- my car's AC is the old R12 freon
>ARGH!...*Sniffles and goes off to prepare the game*
But you haven't lost yet
!TS's dismal Fort Saves are legendary
.... no way he is winning a drinking game
Who needs a good Fort save when your BAB is off the charts? Some of the best warriors in history were drunks
.*loads in another 7.62x54mmR round, aims, and fires. The round lands towards the upper right of the secondary circle*
"Dammit!"
Are you kidding?
TS's dismal Fort Saves are legendary
.... no way he is winning a drinking game
True, but we're at a target range.
Who needs a good Fort save when your BAB is off the charts? Some of the best warriors in history were drunks
*loads in another 7.62x54mmR round, aims, and fires. The round lands towards the upper right of the secondary circle*
"Dammit!"
know my luck i would shoot one of you guys..
.Or, temporarily gain the Skip Shot feat for the purposes of targeting teammates only
and there by winning by default
:evillaughIt vill save your laif.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOydFpLmhO0
It vill save your laif.
Well, I guess the 5.7x28mm's inability to cause tissue damage is actually a good thing in event of zombies. They don't care about hydrostatic shock, and apparently it doesn't have enough energy to pop out the other wide of the skull, so it'll bounce around in that skull pretty nice.
Right?
So, High Explosive 5.7x28mm rounds deal 3d8 damage! Altogether, that's twenty rounds of (on average) 12 damage death in your hands
.You can Double Tap it for 4d8 damage, or (with an FN P90) Burst Fire for 5d8 damage.
Time to cuddle with a steel and wooden beauuuuuuuuty!
:inlove:*soft music begins playing*
Pour yourself a glass of wine, start up the fireplace, turn off the lights and bundle up in your favorite blanket, because it's...
Time to cuddle with a steel and wooden beauuuuuuuuty!
*soft music begins playing*
do oyu need some time alone?:embarrass
do oyu need some time alone?:embarrass
Surely it can't just be me. The way casings fly out of the Glock 18 and L85A1 in slow-motion is damn sexy.
Am I the only one who finds a Japanese video promoting guns hilarious?
Those that do not have, want
.Pour yourself a glass of wine, start up the fireplace, turn off the lights and bundle up in your favorite blanket, because it's...
Time to cuddle with a steel and wooden beauuuuuuuuty!
*soft music begins playing*
I've gotta say, I never thought i'd see literal gun porn.
When we consider the 5.7 is just a suped up 22mag, the 17x28 is a suped up 17HRM
If the .22x28 is good cause its small,
then the .17x28 must be better cause its smaller
If the .22x28 is good cause its small, then the .17x28 must be better cause its smaller
You know what they say ->
Why use one, when you can use two...hundred
?
Got a license to kill (to kill)
And you know I'm going straight for your heart.
(Got a license to kill)
Got a license to kill (to kill)
Anyone who tries to tear us apart.
(Got a license to kill)
License to kill.
I like it.
Artistic. Could also be construed as post-apocalyptic.
I like it.
That's the 1980's for you
.-Pulls a rocket launcher out of thin air and fires.
-The rocket bursts open in midair and shotguns with katana-bayonets fly out.
-The shotguns go spinning around cutting people while shooting out miniature Desert Eagles.
-The Desert Eagles fire a bunch of explosive AP rounds, then burst like incendiary grenades and launch shuriken shrapnel everywhere.
-The shurikens are made of C4 and explode.
Going by the rules in most RPGs, this attack should destroy most of whatever continent the attacker is standing on. At the very least, the shotgun-katanas will chop most trees, tanks, and stacks of peasants in half.
.Wow, this thread is up to 800 posts. I'm impressed.
we aim to please if we can't kill
I've heard of AntiTank munitions,
and AntiPersonel Munitions, Incindiary munitions, BunkerBuster munitions
and even AntiMedic munitions
... but I ant never heard of Pleasin Munitions
Is that like a hollow point or soft point... 7.62 Pleasant Point ammo?
Its like a jacketed steel core, but the jacket is around an opiate core
... could lead to more self inflicted and friendly fire incidents
I haven't played d20 modern; but I have played D&D. Does d20 Modern use the same Hit Point system D&D uses?
Yes, though the "optional" Massive Damage rule is not so optional, and comes into play at a much smaller number.
Home...home on the range...
A company called "elite ammunition" now makes 5.7 ammunition that is comparable or better than the 5.56 round when fired from the p90.
Considering these same rounds can be fired safely from the 5.7 pistol, you get rather ridiculous velocities off a handgun fired round that are comparable to a rifle.
Here are their tests:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1502
FBI penetration requirements for handgun ammunition to be considered effective are 12" penetration through 10% gel.
This ammunition meets that 12" mark in nearly all cases after going through level 2 armor and 15% gel (the higher % means more difficult to penetrate.)
From the 5.7 pistol the muzzle velocity is measured at 2600FPS.
Now that I have added more fuel to the fire, feel free to have fun back on topic again
If a certain slug hotloaded from a 5.7FN goes 2600 fps
and a certain slug hotloaded from a 50BMG only goes 2500 fps
the clearly the 5.7 is more powerful than 50BMG.
All the 5.7 supporting argument requires an Apple vs Oranges test.
To compare a chambering to another chambering, like to compare 5.7 to .223,
you open a box of 100 slugs, 50 get loaded in 5.7brass and the other 50 bet loaded into .223 brass,
then you compare some 30gr 2600fps 5.7fn to the 30gr 4100fps .223
and try to keep a straight face when declaring 2600 is the same as 4100
Guys,
to say a supercharged nitros 2.2L drifter 4banger makes more HP than a v8
only holds when you dont compare it to a supercharged nitros v8 at a tractor pull.
To say 4bangers are just as good as V8s is Apples & Oranges: Supercharged vs not.
To say the 5.7 special loads are as good as a 223
requires one chambering gets special loading and the other dont.
They both can load up the same slugs into the brasses, compare 30g to 30gr and then do it with 62gr vs 62gr
and the .223 will STOMP the 5.7 both times
If a .223 firing a 30gr slug goes 4100fps
and the 120Rhinemetal Abrams silver bullet goes about that fast
then we can sy the m16 is about as powerful as the 120 tankgun
(it just shoots a far lighter slug, exactly like how the 5.7 shoots a far lighter slug than 223)
I saw some mentions in the beginning of the thread that discussed the power of the round being due to lower than optimal powder charges.
A company called "elite ammunition" now makes 5.7 ammunition that is comparable or better than the 5.56 round when fired from the p90.
Considering these same rounds can be fired safely from the 5.7 pistol, you get rather ridiculous velocities off a handgun fired round that are comparable to a rifle.
So it took, what, nearly two years before that player was right? Curse you
! Now, i'm going to have to hunt them down to apologize.So it took, what, nearly two years before my player was right? Curse you
See backstabbist's post as to why he's not.
See backstabbist's post as to why he's not.
I just finished reading it. Oops...
.I just finished reading it. Oops...
:P
FPS measurements are irrelevant without weight of slug to go with it.
If a certain slug hotloaded from a 5.7FN goes 2600 fps
and a certain slug hotloaded from a 50BMG only goes 2500 fps
the clearly the 5.7 is more powerful than 50BMG.
All the 5.7 supporting argument requires an Apple vs Oranges test.
To compare a chambering to another chambering, like to compare 5.7 to .223,
you open a box of 100 slugs, 50 get loaded in 5.7brass and the other 50 bet loaded into .223 brass,
then you compare some 30gr 2600fps 5.7fn to the 30gr 4100fps .223
and try to keep a straight face when declaring 2600 is the same as 4100
Guys,
to say a supercharged nitros 2.2L drifter 4banger makes more HP than a v8
only holds when you dont compare it to a supercharged nitros v8 at a tractor pull.
To say 4bangers are just as good as V8s is Apples & Oranges: Supercharged vs not.
To say the 5.7 special loads are as good as a 223
requires one chambering gets special loading and the other dont.
They both can load up the same slugs into the brasses, compare 30g to 30gr and then do it with 62gr vs 62gr
and the .223 will STOMP the 5.7 both times
If a .223 firing a 30gr slug goes 4100fps
and the 120Rhinemetal Abrams silver bullet goes about that fast
then we can sy the m16 is about as powerful as the 120 tankgun
(it just shoots a far lighter slug, exactly like how the 5.7 shoots a far lighter slug than 223)
I have noticed that you keep comparing a handgun to rifles though.
The 5.7 handgun round achieves this muzzle velocity from a 5 inch barrel, with a 20 or 30 round magazine.
How many other handguns get bullets up to this velocity?
I've seen the 7.62x25mm (tokarev) get up to around 1500FPS, my father's model 19 sending a 357 magnum round at about that speed (4inch barrel), and several guns of several other calibers that are common not reaching past that mark.
Now, take the results of the linked test I gave earlier, run on over to brassfetcher.com and look at some of the other handgun calibers out there.
The results? This handgun+round can do what the high powered handguns can do damagewise to an unarmored target and do it vs an armored target. And have lots of ammo to spare.
BUT.
If you read more into the results of the testing of these rounds...
Into plain gel the S4 stayed together.When shot through the Vest the jacket sheared off into shards. YES it does more damage with a vest on. This shocked everyone. The group agreed. If you in a shoot out and they have 5.7 take you vest OFF.
So you can give it to your player as the following house rule: The five-seven handgun using this type of ammunition will do as much damage as the Desert Eagle .50 IF the target is wearing body armor (2d8). Vs unarmored targets it would do as much damage as a 7.62x25 CZ loading (2d6+1.) These numbers pulled from the chart of damage someone posted waaaaaaaaaaay earlier.
A secondary consideration is this ammunition is literally made using either spent 5.7 brass or by pulling the bullets off unfired cartridges and putting in their own powders and bullets. These are NOT cheap rounds or mass produced yet, and the price+availability of using them should reflect this.
My gun-fu department 7 hero would probably save this ammo and gun(s) for a prepared john woo/matrix lobby shootout moment, and one where anonymity isn't going to be a problem (these rounds will raise some eyebrows at the CSI lab and be incredibly easily traced.)
tl;dr
Don't compare handgun ballistics to rifle ballistics. This new round can work as advertised by the OPs numbskull friend, but only under specific circumstance and at great cost.
EDIT: The 5.7 round and the 7.62 tok rounds are close enough in weight as to be the best comparison. The new 5.7 round easily beats the 7.62 tok on the velocity. This should address your bullet weight concerns while also addressing my handgun vs rifle concerns, making everyone happy.
oh, wait... you didnt... so I still dont
No matter how light you make the bullet so it will come out of a 5.7 brass really fast
it will come out of a .223 brass faster. A smaller powder capacity of 50k pressure will NEVER be as powerfull as a higher pressure (62k) higher capacity cartridge. In short barrels the 62k pressure gives faster shots than 50k pressure. In longer barels the 50k cant even maintain its weaker burn for as long.
Go ahead and load up them fancy 20gr or 28gr slugs in .223 brass and work up a load for hUnique or Win231 for a 5"bbl.... then lets see how much faster a gun with 24% more pressure is
This is just more of the one sided hype we heard when they first put out the aluminum AP round:
Oooh! Look how fast it goes!
They (FN) refuse to release the slug to be loaded in 5.56 brass cause it will make the 5.7 look as weak as it really is.
If you want to talk about how great some new .224in slug performs from a 5.7fn brass,
you are kidding yourself if you dont load more slugs from that box into some 5.56 brass and 22mag collet-pull brass.
Now that you have told us what the bullet weights are I wholely agree with you.
oh, wait... you didnt... so I still dont
Read my edit.
No matter how light you make the bullet so it will come out of a 5.7 brass really fast
it will come out of a .223 brass faster. A smaller powder capacity of 50k pressure will NEVER be as powerfull as a higher pressure (62k) higher capacity cartridge. In short barrels the 62k pressure gives faster shots than 50k pressure. In longer barels the 50k cant even maintain its weaker burn for as long.
Go ahead and load up them fancy 20gr or 28gr slugs in .223 brass and work up a load for hUnique or Win231 for a 5"bbl.... then lets see how much faster a gun with 24% more pressure is
This is just more of the one sided hype we heard when they first put out the aluminum AP round:
Oooh! Look how fast it goes!
They (FN) refuse to release the slug to be loaded in 5.56 brass cause it will make the 5.7 look as weak as it really is.
If you want to talk about how great some new .224in slug performs from a 5.7fn brass,
you are kidding yourself if you dont load more slugs from that box into some 5.56 brass and 22mag collet-pull brass.
And again you are comparing rifle ballistics to handgun ballistics. They are on two totally different levels.
But let me make this as clear as possible for you. Let me start with the 7.62 tok round:
Excerpted from http://www.brassfetcher.com/762x25mmJHPs.html
The 7.62x25mm Tokarev round is commonly found in such pistols as the CZ-52 and can propel a 85gr bullet at velocities in excess of 1500 ft/sec, twice as fast as a .45ACP bullet. An arsenal-refurbished CZ-52 sells for as little as 150USD, about 1/3 the price of a new Glock or similar quality handgun.
This higher-than-normal velocity and smaller-than-normal bullet diameter ensures that the 7.62x25mm round exhibits outstanding penetration through hard barriers and soft body armor.
Now compare to the standard civvie sporting round, ss197sr, a 40 grain round traveling at approx 1900 fps from a p90 (could not find handgun velocity, but obviously it would be lower from a handgun due to the shorter barrel.)
Finally, compare both of those to the elite ammunition 55gr bullet traveling at 2600fps from a handgun.
You have a bullet 30gr lighter than the 7.62tok traveling not quite twice as fast. I think it is fair to say they do the same level of damage based on that alone.
Add in my reasoning for more damage vs armored targets on the tests and that covers the rest.
Finally, yes, I agree, bullets fired from rifles will always be better than bullets fired from handguns.
The desert eagle is not a rifle.
The five-seven is not a rifle.
Stop bringing rifles into this.
EDIT: When the economy stops being stupid I'll pick up an AR-57 upper to go on my AR-15, take it to the local range, and we can have fun making fun of the 5.7 in the same length barrel of an AR-15 vs a .223 round loaded with the same bullet and the best powder charge money can buy. But this is not the comparison the OP was trying to make. The OP post was quite simply, DE handgun vs five-seven handgun.
http://media.photobucket.com/image/ar-57/CG52/ar57.jpg
Backstabbist, if the argument was ar-15 vs the above abomination, I would be 100% in total agreement with you that the ar-15 will win.
And now my daily carry, +1 extra item
http://img193.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=img0006zgi.jpg
And finally, the thing that makes the five-seven even more hax:
http://store.a51tactical.com/images/fn_cmmg_57EXT.jpg
30 round magazines.
Oh, and if you really want to compare the .223 out of a similar weapon, we could cut down the barrel on this thing...
but lets look at your post that started this run
A company called "elite ammunition" now makes 5.7 ammunition that is comparable or better than the 5.56 round when fired from the p90.
it seems it was you that introduced the comparison to 5.56, not me.
Just what kind of 5.56 are you talking about when you compare it?
I keep using the example of the 28gr aluminum AP slug
that is super nifty keen-o and on par with a 5.56 when fired from a 5.7 P90
... yet they never mention that the 5.56 can accept that same slug and shoot it much mush MUCH faster.
ANYHOO
what you are talking about is a new Ammo Type to add to the stats of the gun,
yet we see the same faulty logic of statting it as WoC did:
The benefit of high penetration ammo is that it gets a ToHit Bonus vs armor, not better damage.
If you have a 2d6 gun that can shoot aluminum AP ammo, then it is a 2d6 damage gun with +2 ToHit vs armor.... not a 2d8 gun
Steelcore does not turn a 2d10 rifle into a 2d12 rifle,
Aluminum core does not turn a 2d6 gun into a 2d8 gun
This is almost as bad as d20Future, with its 'full power' MiniGrenades.
Obviously a similar tech grenade twice the size of a MiniGrenade will do more damage than the small one.
ok, heres the deal-
5.7 can defeat NIJ-II armor
while 50AE can defeat NIJ-II armor
difference is that the 50 is a slug that kills things
while the 28gr slug from a 5.7 is a joke
Finally, compare both of those to the elite ammunition 55gr bullet traveling at 2600fps from a handgun.
Uh... what 5.7 ammo is that again that gets a 55gr at 2600 from the pistol?
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
When fired from the FN Five seveN pistol, the ProtecTOR reaches a menacing 2,080 feet per second and able to impart more than 350 foot-pounds of energy on target. With the use of an FN P90 (2,400 fps) or PS90(2,600 fps), bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly-sized 5.56x45mm weapons.
.......
Our UltraRapTOR can be described as a gruesome hybrid of magnum-power hollow-point and high-speed rifle-caliber FMJ. The UltraRapTOR’s 28-grain hollow-point reaches scorching speeds of 2600 feet-per-second when fired from a Five seveN pistol and matches the proven abilities the Colt M4 when fired from a P90 merely half the size.
......
Elite proudly presents the VarminTOR 5.7x28mm high-performance small game round. Assembled using the renowned Barnes Varmint Grenade and propelled by a generous powder charge, the VarminTOR rockets past our chronographs at a blistering 2,100 fps* when fired from the FN Five seveN pistol!
.......
The PenetraTOR is heaviest supersonic 5.7x28mm round commercially available. Loaded with our special 55-grain FMJ. The PenetraTOR has been extensively tested, in the lab and in the field.
Our standard PenetraTOR is the most accurate cartridge in our catalog, capable of sub-1-inch groups at 25 yards out of the Five seveN’s 5-inch barrel*! Out of the P90 or PS90, the 2300+ feet-per-second bullet is more actually than most ever thought the platform was capable of.
well,
they have 2600fps ammo
andthey have 55gr ammo
but they dont make 55gr 2600fps ammo
DontExisTOR 2600fps 55gr FN5.7 Vaporware Hype-Up
You keep saying that it is I that is comparing pistols to rifles,
but lets look at your post that started this run
it seems it was you that introduced the comparison to 5.56, not me.
Just what kind of 5.56 are you talking about when you compare it?
Any data you see in this post will be from brassfetcher unless otherwise specified.
5.7 data (not EA 5.7, FN 5.7)
Shot 1 - FN PS90 firing SS197 at bare gelatin. Shot impacted at 2054 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.6" (corrected) and was recovered at 26.9gr weight and 0.373" average diameter.
Shot 2 - FN PS90 firing SS197 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 2063 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.2" (corrected) and was recovered at 23.2gr weight and 0.352" average diameter. Please note that the maximum penetration depth was for a small bullet fragment - the major part of the bullet penetrated to 9.0" depth (corrected).
.223 data
Their lightest tested load:
Cartridge : 53gr Barnes Triple-Shock (handloaded)
Firearm : Gas-operated rifle with 16" barrel length and 1/9 inch rifling twist.
Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 10.4cm and 596 ft/sec)
Penetration = 13.9"
Average expanded diameter = 0.419"
Impact velocity = 2712 ft/sec
and an M855 steel core.
Cartridge : 62gr M-855 FMJ
Firearm : 5.56x45mm rifle with 14.5" barrel length and 1/9 inch twist
Block calibration : 12.9cm at 590 ft/sec
Single shot fired to the center of the block from 10' distance. Bullet impacted at 2923 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.1". Bullet penetrated point-forward until 1.9" penetration depth, at which time the bullet yawed. The bullet entered the non-cavitating flow regime at 10.3" depth. Maximum permanent cavity had a diameter of 5.5".
One 7.2gr piece of lead was recovered from the penetration track at 5.9" depth. The bullet evidently maintained some semblance of core-jacket integrity, as only minor copper and lead fragments were recovered from the rest of the penetration track.
Now look at the original 2600fps from a handgun that I posted. That same round fired from the p90 (a 55gr slug btw) will be gaining some extra velocity as a function of barrel length. It would be easily safe to put that into the 2900-3000fps territory... matching up with currently available ar-15 loads.
Oh, and you did bring in rifles first. I'll forgive you for not remembering though:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13718664&postcount=7
I keep using the example of the 28gr aluminum AP slug
that is super nifty keen-o and on par with a 5.56 when fired from a 5.7 P90
... yet they never mention that the 5.56 can accept that same slug and shoot it much mush MUCH faster.
And you keep ignoring my examples of a slug not 28gr, 55gr. This after all your *****ing about bullet weight, too.
ANYHOO
what you are talking about is a new Ammo Type to add to the stats of the gun,
yet we see the same faulty logic of statting it as WoC did:
The benefit of high penetration ammo is that it gets a ToHit Bonus vs armor, not better damage.
This is you ignoring the reason WHY I statted it for better damage. Because in empirical testing, it DOES more damage.
If you have a 2d6 gun that can shoot aluminum AP ammo, then it is a 2d6 damage gun with +2 ToHit vs armor.... not a 2d8 gun
Steelcore does not turn a 2d10 rifle into a 2d12 rifle,
Aluminum core does not turn a 2d6 gun into a 2d8 gun
And to top it all off, these aren't even AP designated rounds I'm talking about. Otherwise the ATF wouldn't let people buy them.
This is almost as bad as d20Future, with its 'full power' MiniGrenades.
Obviously a similar tech grenade twice the size of a MiniGrenade will do more damage than the small one.
Been forever since I read d20 future, so I'll take your word for this.
-----------------
IN SUMMATION:
EA can make the 5.7 ammunition as effective as the damage seen on other given weapons of the 2d8 stat block when fired from a handgun vs armored targets.
EA can make the 5.7 ammunition as effective as the .223 standard loadouts available for purchase over the counter.
If EA gets into the .223 ammo business, the damage stats will likely be increased there, too. But they don't. So it isn't.
The OP?
ok, heres the deal-
5.7 can defeat NIJ-II armor
while 50AE can defeat NIJ-II armor
difference is that the 50 is a slug that kills things
while the 28gr slug from a 5.7 is a joke
They both defeat armor, yes. 5.7 pistol just does it with many more rounds to spare, much smaller package, etc.
Uh... what 5.7 ammo is that again that gets a 55gr at 2600 from the pistol?
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
well,
they have 2600fps ammo
andthey have 55gr ammo
but they dont make 55gr 2600fps ammo
DontExisTOR 2600fps 55gr FN5.7 Vaporware Hype-Up
If you bothered to you know... CLICK THE FIRST LINK I POSTED you would find it. New loadout that they confirmed is shipping but the info page isn't updated.
Actually look at what I'm writing instead of dismissing it due to prejudice.
Then when you finish that, you can look up the real fun ammo made by LeMas called APLP (armor piercing, limited penetration) ammunition... and realize that maybe different ammunition types these days actually do make a difference in damage.
!Elite ammunition? LOL
Yeah, I can't say it with a straight face either. Same with their naming conventions for ammunition groups.
...you wouldn't happen to be that same player I kicked out, would you?
Hey...
...you wouldn't happen to be that same player I kicked out, would you?
Neg. I'm a firm believer in rule 0, having been a GM once or twice in my time.
I'm also a firm believer in modifying things when logical evidence is presented to me when I am a GM.
If a GM says rule 0, I move on. I expect the same from all my players, however.
EDIT: I hope my arguments are at least making logical sense. Your original player was not.
EDIT2: HK UCP. Because we need an even SMALLER caliber high velocity handgun.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg141-e.htm
That's a relief. It certainly wouldn't be the first stalker i've had, though.
Which is it-
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
PenetraTOR?
DontExisTOR?
Otherwise I will go with the company website selling the junk claimed to be in the vids,
and they (EliteAmmo) doesnt have that DontExisTOR for sale.
You are citing references that are pure hooey and cant back up what you say they claim.
Which is not on their site?
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
PenetraTOR?
And you do realize you are citing them claiming that they must be the worlds worst ammo company if they can JUST NOW load a 55gr to 2600 when before they could only load a 28gr to that speed
The PenetraTOR is heaviest supersonic 5.7x28mm round commercially available. Loaded with our special 55-grain FMJ. The PenetraTOR has been extensively tested, in the lab and in the field.
Our standard PenetraTOR is the most accurate cartridge in our catalog, capable of sub-1-inch groups at 25 yards out of the FiveseveN’s 5-inch barrel*! Out of the P90 or PS90, the 2300+ feet-per-second bullet is more actually than most ever thought the platform was capable of.
Holy slow motion Batman!
The 55gr PenetraTOR is one worthless slow poke snail of a bullet out of a P90 @2300fps,
if the same company allegedly loads a 55gr to 2600fps from a FiveseveN. What idiot would buy that slow crudtastic PenetraTOR ammo when the DontExisTOR is so much better?
And you keep ignoring my examples of a slug not 28gr, 55gr. This after all your *****ing about bullet weight, too.
PROVE IT
You want to link to a fanboi pic thread? What post# has that 55gr 2600 from pistol data
... data that just happens to not be on their web page hyping up their products? Maybe they have been too busy since November to put the physics breaking ammo on their web site... either that or, you know... it dont exist
If small & fast is better,
then smaller & faster is betterer
(9mm 77gr 900fps 8shot leveraction "bbgun")
Your first link is to a 57FF (5.7 Fanboi Forum) that has a bunch of pics & vids. If you'd kindly point to which post number had the WEIGHT of that 2600fps pistol shot and the NAME of their ammo that did it.....
Which is it-
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
PenetraTOR?
DontExisTOR?
Otherwise I will go with the company website selling the junk claimed to be in the vids,
and they (EliteAmmo) doesnt have that DontExisTOR for sale.
You are citing references that are pure hooey and cant back up what you say they claim.
Which is not on their site?
ProtecTOR?
VarminTOR?
UltraRapTOR?
PenetraTOR?
And you do realize you are citing them claiming that they must be the worlds worst ammo company if they can JUST NOW load a 55gr to 2600 when before they could only load a 28gr to that speed
Holy slow motion Batman!
The 55gr PenetraTOR is one worthless slow poke snail of a bullet out of a P90 @2300fps,
if the same company allegedly loads a 55gr to 2600fps from a FiveseveN. What idiot would buy that slow crudtastic PenetraTOR ammo when the DontExisTOR is so much better?
PROVE IT
You want to link to a fanboi pic thread? What post# has that 55gr 2600 from pistol data
... data that just happens to not be on their web page hyping up their products? Maybe they have been too busy since November to put the physics breaking ammo on their web site... either that or, you know... it dont exist
Tell you what, I'll shoot off an email to them and ask them to update their product sheets since you seem so hung up on weights and not results.
I'm assuming that your disdain for the "fanboi" forum will prevent you from taking anything there seriously.
.17x28 Velociraptor
If small & fast is better,
then smaller & faster is betterer
Sure, just buy some level2 body armor and mix up some gel and post the results.
You said it compares to 5.56, but dont want to talk rifles (?).
You said it is 55gr at 2600 from a pistol, but wont say what post# that info is in.
You said the lil speck of a bullet is great at penetrating, but dont rocognize that it is still just a lil baby bullet.
What makes the 2600fps 50BMG powerful? Mass, and lots of it
What makes the 2600fps 5.7FN weak sauce? Mass: the lack of having any
The uber powerful gun and the uber waek gun both use 2600fps slugs, just like the 2600fps 1900lb slug 16" Navalguns... more mass is more power, less mass is less power... and the 28gr is the most less-massful wee lil bullet ever to embarass a gun by exiting its muzzle
More mass good,
less mass bad,
and 5.7 is the less massiest
I am not hung up on weights over results,
I dont like comparisons that are faulted.
If you want to say there is some great new .224in ammo type
, great, that dont change the point that 5.7 is a base 2d6 caliber on a good day
I get hung up on what people say.
You said it compares to 5.56, but dont want to talk rifles (?).
I said the 5.7 compares to to 5.56 from a similar barrel length and conceded that they could push that same round with more power from an ar-15 if they put their minds to it. I conceded this to you several times already.
You said it is 55gr at 2600 from a pistol, but wont say what post# that info is in.
Well, you disregarded my link twice, no point in making it a third. As I said, I'll wait for the manufacturer response and put the whole thing to rest then and there.
You said the lil speck of a bullet is great at penetrating, but dont rocognize that it is still just a lil baby bullet.
Some really amazing things happen to the temporary wound cavities of targets when you approach rifle velocities. The hydrostatic shock that you don't get from low to mid velocity rounds starts showing up past 2000fps (when you go hunting and end up with bloodshot meat around the would channel? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.) If you want a demo of this, look up LeMas APLP ammunition demos on live animals for other low grain high velocity round results. Some of those vids were leaked onto youtube by PETA, so it should be available there.
What makes the 2600fps 50BMG powerful? Mass, and lots of it
What makes the 2600fps 5.7FN weak sauce? Mass: the lack of having any
The uber powerful gun and the uber waek gun both use 2600fps slugs, just like the 2600fps 1900lb slug 16" Navalguns... more mass is more power, less mass is less power... and the 28gr is the most less-massful wee lil bullet ever to embarass a gun by exiting its muzzle
f=ma, yes. And you are still ignoring that this HANDGUN outperforms other HANDGUNS in a, which makes up for the decrease in m.
More mass good,
less mass bad,
and 5.7 is the less massiest
Well, we know which side you'll take on the 9vs45 and AR-15vsAK47 debates at least.
I am not hung up on weights over results,
Right.
I dont like comparisons that are faulted.
Which is why your first post in this thread compared the 5.7 to a .223 rifle round
If you want to say there is some great new .224in ammo type
I want to say there is a good 5.7x28 loadout on the market now.
that can only be loaded in .224in calibersthat can only be loaded in on particular .224in caliber
great, that dont change the point that 5.7 is a base 2d6 caliber on a good day
Your prejudice on this matter is clear.
Other than the PLR-16, how many handguns are you aware of that can push a round of any grain at the velocities we are seeing from the five-seven?
The 7.62 tokarev cz loadings are the closest I can find.
I said the 5.7 compares to to 5.56 from a similar barrel length and
great, give the numbers you have for the 5.56 in similar barrel length to the Pistols Only you want to talk about. Otherwise, in rifle lengths, it is still just hype without the 5.56 results next to showing us how great 5.7 is
What numbers are you comparing, at what bbl lengths?
Well, you disregarded my link twice, no point in making it a third
no, I asked you to tell us what post # in that thread you linkek to here in post808
... over & over
and you somehow are tired of repeatedly not providing it?
Which is why your first post in this thread compared the 5.7 to a .223 rifle round
Nothing I said in post7 of this thread is rifle specific.
There are more than a few manufactures making PISTOLS in .223 / 5.56
Steel Rams at 200m is a Pistol competition, has been for decades
regarless of my post 7, you are the one making the 5.56 comparison in post 808
and you are balking at showing us the data you want to cite
Your prejudice on this matter is clear
Prejudice?
If I say a 28gr @2600 is not as powerful as a 55gr @2600
that makes me prejudice?
It is not prejudice to ask folks to back up outlandish claims.
EliteAmmo claims their 55gr goes 2300 out a rifle.
YOU claim they have a 55gr going 2600 out a pistol.
I ask for you to support that claim, and we all get to watch you do a song and dance without providing the hard data support.
Heres an idea,
why dont you edit the Wikipedia 5.7x28 entry to include your miracle load
Elite 5.7x28 55gr 2600 5"barrel
and see if anyone will stand with you on it
... heck, see if anyone will accept that from a 10" barrel
(I keep hearing how bullet weight dont matter ;) )
so if the 5.7 pistol gets 2000-2300
and the Tracker gets 2100
then the 5.7 must be about as good as the Tracker
and the Tracker is chambered in the 2d4 caliber 17HMR
so the 5.7 pistol should get 2d4
simple
.will appreciate that
.Tarus Tracker 6" barrel 2100fps XXXgr
(I keep hearing how bullet weight dont matter ;) )
so if the 5.7 pistol gets 2000-2300
and the Tracker gets 2100
then the 5.7 must be about as good as the Tracker
and the Tracker is chambered in the 2d4 caliber 17HMR
so the 5.7 pistol should get 2d4
simple
And that makes the 357 do... 2d3? :P
Yes, bullet weights matter. The ENTIRE equation matters. So do empirical results. And as I said, as soon as I get my response back from the company we'll have the final say on which *TOR rounds go which velocities.
Unless their email support equals my luck with WotC email support.
if weight does now matter,
then arent you kinda saying all the other loads (oem spec) for 5.7 preceding this 2600 55gr
are junk cause they have no weight?
well,
if weight does now matter,
then arent you kinda saying all the other loads (oem spec) for 5.7 preceding this 2600 55gr
are junk cause they have no weight?
They sucked because they had low mass and low velocity after being neutered by the Brady Bunch and the Green Team. (lead free, low velocity, low mass, low shelf-life primers... a mess.)
The ENTIRE EQUATION MATTERS.
Mass. Acceleration. From this you get... Force!
On top of that, you then have the empirical RESULTS, as just measuring ft-lbs of energy won't tell you how a round is actually going to perform when it hits something.
Now since we can't use death row prisoners for ballistic testing and we can't use animals either (PETA), ballistic gel and autopsy reports from the morgue are pretty much the only viable options we currently have for measuring terminal performance.
You wish to compare the 5.7x28 round to a 223 remington round. Well, fortunately we have plenty ballistic data and gel data on the latter, but not from a 5" barrel! I've found 5.7 ballistic data and gel data from a handgun for the ammunition in question, but not from a rifle!
-----------------------------
But if you really really want to compare the 5.7 in handgun formto a .223 in handgun form, the only current option is the PLR-16 I posted earlier. Specs from the site show:
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.htm
Muzzle Velocity (M193 (55gr)): 2600fps
Barrel Length : 9.2"
Ballparking my math because I'm lazy at the moment, I'd say a PLR 5" barrel would decrease the acceleration to drop the muzzle velocity down to 2400fps.
704 foot lbs of energy.
-----------
reserved for plr-16 gel data when I find it
-----------
Stock 5.7 ss197 (40gr)from a five-seven pistol muzzle velocity has been tested at 1932 fps (brassfetcher source).
332 foot lbs of energy. Not enough to punch through kevlar. Not even enough to punch through the FBI required 12" of bare ballistic gel. (brassfetcher again)
In short:Not enough to bet your life on.
-----------
EA ammunition force I won't calculate into foot lbs until I get the email confirmation of all ammunition and muzzle velocity.
-----------
The EA dontexistor ammunition shown in the youtube videos penetrates level 2 armor, shatters the jacket inside the gel and sends what's left of the bullet beyond the 12" mark. Without the armor it still goes past the 12" mark, but doesn't make the collateral damage of the shattered jacket.
Do you really think that is just 2d6 on a good day?
Looking at the chat posted earlier and the terminal performance of the 5.7 factory loads, I would agree that the FN civvie loads are 2d4+1 downhill.
But Based on the terminal performance data I linked for the EA ammo, matching that ammo to the 7.62 tok cz loading vs unarmored targets makes sense. I personally think that based on the armored terminal ballistic data which shows increased damage, increasing the damage vs armored targets makes sense. The closest comparison I can think of to that damage pattern would be a glaser round.
So if you play with AP game properties and glaser game properties based on the review of this terminal performance data, we could put the *tor at 2d6+1 vs unarmored targets, +1 to hit and damage vs armored targets.
Does that sound ok to you?
EDIT:
I played around with making a damage chart like the linked one based on muzzle energy calculated based off SAAMI/CIP pressures pushing a measured mass along a given length of barrel, giving GMs a ballpark idea of where to put ammunition damage we could all agree on.
It breaks down poorly in examples of low grain high velocity ammunition or high grain low velocity ammunition in handguns though. I suppose it would be possible to create 3 charts for handguns and 3 for rifles, leaving it to the GM to identify barrel length, bullet grain, and max pressure. The categories would probably be straight wall, necked down, and magnum cartridges.
The problem of course is basing the calculation off maximum SAAMI/CIP specs, but that seems to be the best way of keeping things balanced across the board for the cartridges.
What are your thoughts on that plan?
UPDATE:EA advised me they are working on collating the information and referred me to the forums for details.
I'm also pulling in some research on some other .224 pistol calibers such as the 22 reed express, 224boz, etc. Hopefully I can find some ballistics data to show one way or another the relative effectiveness of this idea. The near universal response I've seen from shooters whom I have asked about these different cartridges is that no one wants to carry an unproven cartridge, leading to a chicken/egg situation with the 5.7 cartridge. So basically until a mall ninja uses one of the things and we get some terminal data on it, no one will really take it seriously.
?Even if these figures are genuine, do you really think Wizards of the Coast had access to them when Weapons Locker was released
No. I'm pretty sure I never claimed that they were in the first place (and I'm sorry if I did), and if you read the post right above I fully concede that the FN civvie factory loads suck ass.
I'm pretty sure that their thought process for the stats came after putting down the p90 stats and decided "Hmm. A handgun with a rifle round! Same Damage!"
I doubt there was a ballistics expert (velocity or terminal performance) among any of the designers of it anyhow.
Even if these figures are genuine, do you really think Wizards of the Coast had access to them when Weapons Locker was released
no..I think they made those numbers in WL up...
no..I think they made those numbers in WL up...
Ah. See, I like to call that the "Beer and Dartboard Brainstorming Technique". A bunch of designers sit at a table and each drink until they're seeing blurs, then proceed to throw darts at a specially labeled dartboard. Whatever they hit becomes part of the newest book's statblocks. If Designer A2 had aimed a little more to the left, we'd have a 2d4 FN 5-7.
Pffft, give me fire-linked 5.7mm machine guns any day of the week!
Bim Bam Smashimitsu.
Good ol' Calico M-950. A shame it gets lumped into the villainous pile of "assault weapons" on the 10 O'Clock news.
that would be a spicey meatball
Good ol' Calico M-950. A shame it gets lumped into the villainous pile of "assault weapons" on the 10 O'Clock news.
According to the news media anything but a single-shot bolt action with a wood stock is an "assault weapon."
Ballistically, the 5.7 is nothing more than a centerfire .22 Winchester Magnum, which is a hot rodded .22 Long Rifle. I think WotC statted it the way they did because it cuts through Jaffa and Guo'uld armor like butter while making pretty sparks and neat little tinking noises on impact
Which is only possible with blast caps
. Though, my PCs only really have immediate access to 9x19mm and 4.6x30mm at the moment, so perhaps 5.7x28mm will be a welcome flavor?I guess that is why they only need to shoot one round per Jaffa/Guuuld from their p90's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUWG8p5Frs4
.Forget any evidence to the contrary, it looked cool, so it gets more points.
The 5.7 was statted using the Deadliest Warrior school of thought.
Forget any evidence to the contrary, it looked cool, so it gets more points.
I've heard quite a bit about that show. What makes it so suspect?
I've heard quite a bit about that show. What makes it so suspect?
It completely disregards any historical fact about the warriors in question in favor of popular culture beliefs, the "experts" they bring on the show are not experts in the least, and in the rare instance they actually are, the opinion of the "expert" is completely disregarded for whatever the producers decide looks cooler anyway. The "tests" are completely bunk, and only serve to sway back the "it wins because it looks cooler" decisions. If you look closely at the computers they use, their "analysis program" is just Microsoft Excel with completely random letters and numbers entered into the cells.
Essentially, "forget any evidence to the contrary, it looked cool, so it gets more points," is the entire premise of the show.
It has no educational value or academic merit what-so-ever, no matter how hard it pretends it does, its just mindless entertainment for retarded fratboys.
In case you haven't noticed, I despise this show. :P
A sad excuse to play with swords and guns, 11 May 2009
3/10
Author: Fumbled from United States
This show gives the viewer the impression that it breaks down warriors from the past in a scientific manner that shows which warrior, if they met face to face, would be superior in combat. They tell us they use "state of the art" programs to create such a scenario based on tests they take from experts and historians.
However, what we get it a lot of poorly choreographed and cheesy fight clips involving two LARPers, a bunch of "experts" that seem to have all sorts of superiority complexes, and a nerd on his Alienware laptop typing "complex code," which probably bears similarity to a pokemon game.
The best part for me was when they actually tested guns on a fake skull with fake brains in it. As expected, the bullet penetrated the skull and left a messy exit wound in the back. Then with these "findings" they declared the weapon "lethal." Wow. I didn't know bullets to the head could be lethal! Thanks "Deadliest Warrior." The worst part is, they will give one "side" an "edge" over another even if both weapons seem proficient at killing another human being based on damage done on their dummies. Never mind the fact that a 50 pound axe takes a lot of grunt force to lift and swing around sluggishly. It deals more damage than a regular 8 pound sword that allows a soldier to be more maneuverable and swing more times. "EDGE: BATTLE AXE!" In the end they "punch the numbers" basically dealing damage to each side to come up with a victor through 1000 or so battles. Oh and you get to see the LARPers face off.
Hm. Thanks to you, narukagami, and this reviewer, i'll be staying away from the show.
Reflex Save for half damage
.The review sounds like sour-grapes to me.. maybe angry that the samurai didn't win all catagorys.
I can't vouch for the accurecy of Deadliest warrior, but, I find it funny that the reviewer complains about deadliest warrior being bunk when the review mentions a 50 pound battle axe...
The review sounds like sour-grapes to me.. maybe angry that the samurai didn't win all catagorys.
Well, technical discrepancy in that specific review aside, it seems like the majority of voters share the same general opinion about the show.
On the flip side, I found out where the 5.7 statblock came from. The LAPD.
http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12060413
-----------
Authorities have noticed an increase in high-caliber weapons in Los Angeles. One of the most startling incidents was when a Fabrique National 57, an assault pistol used to kill big game, was found in a victim's car by detectives investigating a double-homicide last year in North Hollywood.
"You use it on large lions, tigers and bears," said LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore, commander of the Valley Bureau.
----------
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
So EA has not deigned to email me specifics on their ammunition.
How long ago did you ask
?---
when a Fabrique National 57, an assault pistol used to kill big game, was found in a victim's car
"Assault pistol"
?Part of me wants to laugh, and the other part wants to drop a wrecking ball on the nearest news station.
The bear will kill you while you do, but that will happen with the 5.7 as well.
So EA has not deigned to email me specifics on their ammunition.
On the flip side, I found out where the 5.7 statblock came from. The LAPD.
http://www.dailynews.com/breakingnews/ci_12060413
-----------
Authorities have noticed an increase in high-caliber weapons in Los Angeles. One of the most startling incidents was when a Fabrique National 57, an assault pistol used to kill big game, was found in a victim's car by detectives investigating a double-homicide last year in North Hollywood.
"You use it on large lions, tigers and bears," said LAPD Deputy Chief Michel Moore, commander of the Valley Bureau.
----------
Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!
My god, I don't think I've seen a more biased, ignorant and uninformed piece of 'news' in a long while. But then, what do you expect to come out of the People's Republik of Kommiefornia?
My god, I don't think I've seen a more biased, ignorant and uninformed piece of 'news' in a long while. But then, what do you expect to come out of the People's Republik of Kommiefornia?
Here's the part I don't get: if this kind of reporting is so braindeadingly biased, why does it continue to exist? Why aren't objectivity and higher standards being enforced?
Here's the part I don't get: if this kind of reporting is so braindeadingly biased, why does it continue to exist? Why aren't objectivity and higher standards being enforced?
Because Kommiefornia actually values the 1st Amendment, unlike the 2nd.
You can't 'force' the press to do much of anything. All you can do is make a concerted effort to spread information to counter their ignorance.
You know technically Freedom of the Press is only supposed to apply when they're not lying.
That is a rather fine distinction, my friend ;).
it causes too many problems as well
and I do not support free speech,
it causes too many problems as well
.If this has been answered in the 30 pages, excuse the fact I haven't read it. It's a LOT of text to go through... Or is it inconclusive and that's why there's 30 pages of text?
To some it surely is inconclusive. I doubt they will see the light until Wizards of the Coast erratas the current Weapon Locker books (unlikely) or get their act together for the next iteration of d20 Modern (more likely).
Sorry I just always wanted to use that.
A shraggedy. De goffee was dolerable dough.
gotta love the ripple
.Still very pretty. (and very badass)
Eurocopter Tiger, not an Apache.
Still very pretty. (and very badass)
Glad to see you around, ed_209a
!I spend most of my time at another RPG forum (which forum is irrelevant here...)
I'm not much of a Modern guru, but am glad to help with background info when I can.
In truth, I'm not around much.
I spend most of my time at another RPG forum (which forum is irrelevant here...)
I'm not much of a Modern guru, but am glad to help with background info when I can.
Yeah. It helps to be as generic as possible ;). That way, you're set no matter what system you use.
Thankfully, this thread wasn't destroyed by "progress".
looking up a few posts at the helicopter with 2.75's:
"17pounder" Hydra Warhead, (4+8)d6 40'r Ref20
<or HE Shelling Arty formula as 70mm>
M229 High-Explosive.
The M229 HE (diagram) warhead is currently in the inventory. An elongated version of the M151, it is commonly referred to as the 17-Pounder. The M229 filler consists of 4.8 pounds of composition B4 and can use the same fuzes as the M151. Its unfuzed weight is 16.4 pounds
looking up a few posts at the helicopter with 2.75's:
"17pounder" Hydra Warhead, (4+8)d6 40'r Ref20
<or HE Shelling Arty formula as 70mm>M229 High-Explosive. The M229 HE (diagram) warhead is currently in the inventory. An elongated version of the M151, it is commonly referred to as the 17-Pounder. The M229 filler consists of 4.8 pounds of composition B4 and can use the same fuzes as the M151. Its unfuzed weight is 16.4 pounds
What is (4+8)d6? 
I have a sneaking suspicion a Tough Hero will survive it anyways.
Oh, and if any heli is shooting 5.7mm, I hope they're tracers.
What is (4+8)d6? I have a sneaking suspicion a Tough Hero will survive it anyways.Oh, and if any heli is shooting 5.7mm, I hope they're tracers.
(4+8)d6 is 12d6 
the first pound of explosives is 4d6, and each additional pound is 2d6
(4+8)d6 is 12d6the first pound of explosives is 4d6, and each additional pound is 2d6
Oh!
By the way, backstabbist, do you agree with the ruling that further blocks of explosive are only half as effective?
Speaking of which, are there any decent rules for twin-linking a gun?
There are some for future starship weapons, but I haven't really looked at them.
Speaking of which, are there any decent rules for twin-linking a gun?
There are some for future starship weapons, but I haven't really looked at them.
I believe either backstabbist or Cyber-Dave came up with rules for those.
The demolition charge calculations used by 12B's (combat engineers)
treat charge weight linearly
No, I do not believe the first pound is twice as powerful as the second pound.
Otherwise, I would run around cutting the 1st pound out of a bunch of satchel charges to make an "All 1st Pound" 10lb Bomb
Yeah, I don't see Wizard's reasoning for kicking Demolitions fans in the gonads. Then again, there's the Double Tap/Burst Fire issue concerning damage die, so this is no surprise (though still illogical).
Yeah the rules for explosives are a little off (the first pound is magically twice as effective as the second pound). But then again, accurately modeling explosive effects is a royal pain in the ass, especially in a game with an abstract combat system. Unless you would prefer them to to fire/sonic/bludgeoning damage for the explosives, and then slashing/piercing damage for the fragmentation, have a different radius for each, different damages for different distances, have variables for the different kinds of explosives (C-4 being stronger than TNT, etc.), then pull out a bomb suit, which will give you an 85% reduction in blast overpressure, so break out the calculators...
Yeah the rules for explosives are a little off (the first pound is magically twice as effective as the second pound). But then again, accurately modeling explosive effects is a royal pain in the ass, especially in a game with an abstract combat system. Unless you would prefer them to to fire/sonic/bludgeoning damage for the explosives, and then slashing/piercing damage for the fragmentation, have a different radius for each, different damages for different distances, have variables for the different kinds of explosives (C-4 being stronger than TNT, etc.), then pull out a bomb suit, which will give you an 85% reduction in blast overpressure, so break out the calculators...
*shrug* Explosives should generally be lethal. If the damage is too high, the GM should give the PCs EOD equipment or use less explosive, not inherently bend the laws of physics to weaken them.
*shrug* Explosives should generally be lethal. If the damage is too high, the GM should give the PCs EOD equipment or use less explosive, not inherently bend the laws of physics to weaken them.
Second. The world shouldn't have to break and bend to be safer for the PCs, the PCs should be more tactically minded and aware to survive in the world.
Maybe my group is just different, but they don't have fun if I don't provide them with an actual challenge and baby them to keep them alive.
Absolutely agreed. I was just agreeing with some of the other posters that yeah the rules for them seem a little weird with the first pound somehow being twice as powerful as whatever else gets stacked on there with it, but thats what you get with an abstract combat system, and I don't really see a better way to do it.
Unless you would prefer them to to fire/sonic/bludgeoning damage for the explosives, and then slashing/piercing damage for the fragmentation, have a different radius for each, different damages for different distances, have variables for the different kinds of explosives (C-4 being stronger than TNT, etc.), then pull out a bomb suit, which will give you an 85% reduction in blast overpressure, so break out the calculators...
Ooooh, I know this game, I have played it! To the horror of the other players I actually put the time into knowing all the modifiers and actions available. Well let's just say that it would normaly take at least a few minutes to declare one round of combat and calculate the modifiers before even rolling any dice... That was for my character!
So what is the name of this actually fully playable game? The name is Role Master!
Bone-
Use the HE Shelling formula for all explosions and the 1st Pound / 2nd Pound nerf wont be needed.
You can also change all explosives scaling to TNT= 1d10 and all others just multiply TNT damage by the explosive's RE.... Mil Dynamite x0.9 and C4 x1.3 etc
5.7FN
Just how many pounds of explosives does an Explosive Ammo Type 28gr 5.7slug carry?
If the amount of explosives in a 28gr 5.7slug do +1d8 (raw), then wouldnt a 62gr 5.56slug have twice as much explosives and do +2d8?
Wouldnt a 300gr 50AE slug have ten time the explosives as a 5.7 "Explosive Ammo Type", and do +10d8?
Absolutely agreed. I was just agreeing with some of the other posters that yeah the rules for them seem a little weird with the first pound somehow being twice as powerful as whatever else gets stacked on there with it, but thats what you get with an abstract combat system, and I don't really see a better way to do it.
Well, in terms of balance, I think it works just fine for Fast Heroes. Evasion retains it's usefulness, and Tough Heroes are suddenly tougher.
Bone-
Use the HE Shelling formula for all explosions and the 1st Pound / 2nd Pound nerf wont be needed.
You can also change all explosives scaling to TNT= 1d10 and all others just multiply TNT damage by the explosive's RE.... Mil Dynamite x0.9 and C4 x1.3 etc
5.7FN
Just how many pounds of explosives does an Explosive Ammo Type 28gr 5.7slug carry?
If the amount of explosives in a 28gr 5.7slug do +1d8 (raw), then wouldnt a 62gr 5.56slug have twice as much explosives and do +2d8?Wouldnt a 300gr 50AE slug have ten time the explosives as a 5.7 "Explosive Ammo Type", and do +10d8?
GURPS has a nice REF chart for explosives. It's worth checking out
Explosive rounds from Urban Arcana, right? I think the designers were having a laugh when they put those into the book, because on a small arms scale (handguns, rifles) they just seem like a general waste of time. I think I saw what looks like them in the movie Hard Target during the aerial pursuit . Definitely cinematic.
Cyanide Tipped Armor Piercing Explosive Bullets...
Bone-
Use the HE Shelling formula for all explosions and the 1st Pound / 2nd Pound nerf wont be needed.
You can also change all explosives scaling to TNT= 1d10 and all others just multiply TNT damage by the explosive's RE.... Mil Dynamite x0.9 and C4 x1.3 etc
5.7FN
Just how many pounds of explosives does an Explosive Ammo Type 28gr 5.7slug carry?
If the amount of explosives in a 28gr 5.7slug do +1d8 (raw), then wouldnt a 62gr 5.56slug have twice as much explosives and do +2d8?Wouldnt a 300gr 50AE slug have ten time the explosives as a 5.7 "Explosive Ammo Type", and do +10d8?
Yeah but as soon as you start making calculations based on the TNT equivalent NEW, then why not make changes based on how optimal the frag is, create multipliers for if the blast is contained (for example, the RPO-A doesn't do much in the open, but shoot it into a bunker and everyone inside is ****ed), special rules for shaped charges and EFPs? It soon becomes a huge mess. Imperfect though it is, the current system is simple.
Although I must admit, I do kind of like that HE arty formula.
Bone-
You were there when we did up some confined explosion rules in the Backblast thread
]Problem is in the term Confined.
Most confined spaces are not truely confined, by openings like windows/halls and similar freeflow vent routes. They also have resrticted vent routes like doors.
If a guy shoots a AT4/LAW while in a 10x10 room with 2 windows and a $14 hollowcore door, the door will gladly blow out to vent the overpressure. Most residential walls of 2 sheetrock & some pinkfluff will also gladly give up their existance to release overpressure.
It really depends on the durability of the confinement.
If you determine an adequately durable confinement, the overpressure damage would be to all in that confinement, the entire room gets overpresured not just a radius from the Recoiless. This damage would be in addition to the direct jet into the 2 sq behind.
This also depends on the bore of the Recoiless. A 67mm 3lb uses a lot less charge than a 94mm 30lb, so the relational volume of overpressure would be far less.... and we are talking in 3space so that my adjust numbers as well.
For simple funtion math (& simple function math is good math ;))
We could assign 1 point damage for each 10mm bore,
FortSave for half DC10+ damage,
affecting 2 nominal 5'sq confinement per 10mm bore.
And just ratio the nominal : actual confinement space to elevate or diminish the damage from overpressure in realation to extra/shortage volume.
67mm in a 10x10:
7damage to 14SQ nominal, 14SQ:4sq <10x10actual> = 3.5, 7 x 3.5 = 24 confinement damage FortDC34
67mm in a 20x20:
7damage to 14SQ nominal, 14SQ:16sq <20x20actual> = 0.44, 7 x 0.88 = 6 confinement damage FortDC16
94mm in a 15x15:
9damage to 18SQ nominal, 18SQ : 9sq <15x15actual> = 2, 9 x 2 = 18 confinement damage FortDC28
Feel free to throw come coefficients in to adjust the Sq per 10Bore or Damage per 10Bore... like I am already looking at making it 1.5 sq per 10Bore instead of 2sq
This model takes a lot of the 3space out of the deal, simpler but not as accurate. It requires the GM to make the determination as to the durability of the confinement, and the ceiling height in respect to "normal".
It is a AGB quickie, we could get more volumetric if we want, as well as non-linear propellant charge weights.
Bone-
You were there when we did up some confined explosion rules in the Backblast thread
Huh, you're right. Forgot all about that.
Ha,
you wasted your turn making the Initiative Demand.
Now on my turn I ready an action to AoO you
when you shoot at me while adjacent on your "initiative"
... and the guys on my fireteam laughed at me when I bought the Telescoping Pike as a ShirtPocket Reach Weapon for folks that take a 5' step back before using firearms: Who's laughing now!
I just realized this thread has been around for two years. Man, how time flies 
.
I just realized this thread has been around for two years. Man, how time flies .
two years and a day
I just realized this thread has been around for two years. Man, how time flies .
two years and a day
This is d20 Modern, not HERO. Two years is granular enough 
.
I just realized this thread has been around for two years. Man, how time flies .
two years and a dayThis is d20 Modern, not HERO. Two years is granular enough .
I am the d20 Modern Godfarther..you don't argue with me
(btw if anyone wishes to send that a recommend for the CT for me the email addy for the person is Trevor.Kidd@wizards.com lol) Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
In search of love, happiness, and understanding .
Because, sometimes, we need options 
.
Of course, another option would be
backstabbist, you know I think your ideas are ace, but that thing is going to be a nightmare to quick draw 
.
you should see the MP5 with Katana 
And what does an M14 get: a claymore (no, not that kind )?
And what does an M14 get: a claymore (no, not that kind )?
For a second that gave me a really funny image in my mind. Then I realized you weren't talking about suicide snipers, so I got another funny image instead.
Well backstabbist, it's no Iowa Battleship, but it's a start.
Somebody rolled a Critical Fail natural1 on their Disguise check,
just because you tie some tires to the boat aint gonna fool anyone into thinking its a truck
"Dont mind us, we're just a harmless truck"
Don't worry: the tires serve as flotation devices.
ahh,
kinda like my Tracked Vehicle Supplemental BODY Armor:
The corpses you tie to your hull not only soak up damage of incoming fire,
but make great floatation devices the track is swimming across rivers/lakes
Sweet shorty 75mm KwK cannon! Nothing like adding the upper hull and turret of a Panzer IV F1 to a light warship!
Sweet shorty 75mm KwK cannon! Nothing like adding the upper hull and turret of a Panzer IV F1 to a light warship!
What is "KwK"?
Sweet shorty 75mm KwK cannon! Nothing like adding the upper hull and turret of a Panzer IV F1 to a light warship!
What is "KwK"?
German acronym for Kampfwagenkanone, meaning "Tank Cannon" (well, "Battle Vehicle Cannon" if you're gonna be anal about it
). Built by Rheinmetall in, I believe, three versions for the 7.5 caliber he's talking about, variously applied to the Panzerkampfwagen IV, the StuG, the Panther, and bunch of other heavy German armour.Sweet shorty 75mm KwK cannon! Nothing like adding the upper hull and turret of a Panzer IV F1 to a light warship!
What is "KwK"?
German acronym for Kampfwagenkanone, meaning "Tank Cannon" (well, "Battle Vehicle Cannon" if you're gonna be anal about it ). Built by Rheinmetall in, I believe, three versions for the 7.5 caliber he's talking about, variously applied to the Panzerkampfwagen IV, the StuG, the Panther, and bunch of other heavy German armour.
Correct. That's the short 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24 cannon, intended primarly as an infantry support weapon. The later PanzerIV F2 had a longer 7.5cm KwK 40 L/43 (later an L/48) gun that produced more velocity, and the Panther had an even longer 7.5cm KwK 42 L/70 gun that was one of the best penetrators of WWII. The Germans also had various 7.5cm guns that were towed (PAK 40), or mounted on obsolete tank chassis (Marders come to mind) as tank hunters.
The "L" designation is a method of measuring barrel length. It stands for how many 'calibers' long the barrel is. For example, the L/24 cannon is 24 calibers (24x7.5cm) long, or 180 cm (5.9 feet). The L/43 is 322.5cm (10.6 feet) long, and the L/70 is a massive 525cm (17.22 feet) long. Obviously, longer barrels mean more burn time, and higher velocities. The L/24 could not penetrate a late-war T-34 from the front even at point-blank range, while the L/70 could do it at over 2000 yards.
Beware the .50 BMG Army.
pfffft,
50's are ok when your troops dont have what it takes to carry a Mans gun:
blah..who needs troops when you can do this :
oh yeah,
thats the image that comes to mind when I hear '5.7fn'
the 50rnd fullauto Planetkiller90
pfffft,
50's are ok when your troops dont have what it takes to carry a Mans gun:
Yeah! Only wimps need shoulders!
Engineering challenge:
Given
- an extensive and stocked fabrication machine shop
- a supply of 5.7 ammo, dies & reamers, and spec sheets
- a couple xM214 5.56 MInigun prototypes, with spec sheets
- a bunch of Lithium ( "30c" LiPo ) batteries and wiring supplies
what would the engineers come up with?
If you answer
xM214B: 5.7Minigun with managable recoil from the weak 5.7 and reasonable weight from the Lipo batteries
.... give yourself a cookie
ok,
I get Spock with the logical 44-40 combo of Levergun & Revolver,
Scotty with the Tommy & Colt makes perfect 45acp engineering sense,
but good luck with Kirk finding a 300wm handgun to go with that AT&T device ... typical Kirk style Appearence Over Function modus op
AT&T device? Hm, the reference is lost on me.
Along the lines of the long-distance phone service motto of "Reach out and Touch Someone..."
Not how I usually prefer to interpret that saying myself, but it works too I guess... 
Welcome to the future
.
The Laptop Gun, by Toshiba: combining elegance with efficiency.
Coming Summer 2020.
Strong Hero 3 / Tough Hero 5
He he's Strong/Fast class because he dont have any armor,
and those classes dont have armor feats
Ah. Something to warm you up during the holiday season.
That is one sweet rifle.
Pretty self-explanatory, but I thought it was worth sharing all the same.
Another tiny caliber wonder.
Begun, the P90 Wars have.
I like to keep this handy for close encounters.
I like to keep this handy for close encounters.
Especially those pesky mass zombie hordes...
Especially those pesky mass zombie hordes...
:O
You have given me a hilarious idea for a weapon rig in a post-apocalyptic game: reenforced shopping cart+MG+breaks on the wheels.
You now have a mobile gun emplacement for urban zombie encounters. XD
Especially those pesky mass zombie hordes...
:O
You have given me a hilarious idea for a weapon rig in a post-apocalyptic game: reenforced shopping cart+MG+breaks on the wheels.
You now have a mobile gun emplacement for urban zombie encounters. XD
Or better yet... take you garden variety riding lawnmower + cowcatcher/oscilatting thresher + re-inforced shopping cart roll cage + MG + trailer for fuel/ammo
Now include a few of these for you basic players set up in an abandoned city for whatever
Especially those pesky mass zombie hordes...
:O
You have given me a hilarious idea for a weapon rig in a post-apocalyptic game: reenforced shopping cart+MG+breaks on the wheels.
You now have a mobile gun emplacement for urban zombie encounters. XD
Or better yet... take you garden variety riding lawnmower + cowcatcher/oscilatting thresher + re-inforced shopping cart roll cage + MG + trailer for fuel/ammo
Now include a few of these for you basic players set up in an abandoned city for whatever
Just make sure you can bottle them into a single path. Nothing hurts a good plan like getting attacked from behind or below.
Especially those pesky mass zombie hordes...
:O
You have given me a hilarious idea for a weapon rig in a post-apocalyptic game: reenforced shopping cart+MG+breaks on the wheels.
You now have a mobile gun emplacement for urban zombie encounters. XD
Or better yet... take you garden variety riding lawnmower + cowcatcher/oscilatting thresher + re-inforced shopping cart roll cage + MG + trailer for fuel/ammo
Now include a few of these for you basic players set up in an abandoned city for whatever
Just make sure you can bottle them into a single path. Nothing hurts a good plan like getting attacked from behind or below.
you made me think of this.
This would just be fun.
Add helicopter blades at the top and you have some sweet **** lol
Add helicopter blades at the top and you have some sweet **** lol
please refer to the Wheelchair thread and the wheelchair gadgets list,
deployable overhead scything blades/chains/etc
please refer to the Wheelchair thread and the wheelchair gadgets list,
deployable overhead scything blades/chains/etc
Which would work nicely in a sewer, but be sure the smell doesn't knock you out.
Closed Respirator (pl5)
PDC15
Mounts any location, O2 cylinders & mask for free breathing while underwater or in contaminated/exhausted enviroment. 30Man-minutes supply, upto 3 additional masks may draw off this supply, with 10' tubes, with accoring drop in supply duration.
Not hard to rule on some refill tanks using this a s a startiong point,
or just have paranoid operators stay in MOPP3/4
( I'm a fossil, is it still called mopp4? )
( I'm a fossil, is it still called mopp4? )
Wow, I heard that term used on a Stargate SG-1 episode that aired back in early 2001.
Wow, it's been years since I posted here, and I still can't believe that this thread is still active. NEarly a hundred pages long (at my preferences, not that I know if that's changeable, since I've not been here for years), and still as rambling as ever. OF course, mentioning wheelchairs and shopping carts got me thinking on my ultimate Apocalypse survival vehicle (not post-apoc but peri-apoc). It consists of, basically, a wheelchair mounted in front of a reversed shopping cart (such that the chair's main wheels replace the functionality of the, normally, back wheels of the shopping cart, allowing the castor wheels of the chair and the castor wheels of the cart to work together, giving a tight turning radius).
How does it do off-road?
( I'm a fossil, is it still called mopp4? )
Wow, I heard that term used on a Stargate SG-1 episode that aired back in early 2001.
I always forget how old SG-1 is until I remember they went for ten whole seasons.
My fanboy is trying to think of which episode that was now.
On a related/unrelated note, nice thread!
The episode is from Season 4 of Stargate SG-1, and it's called "The Light".
The 5.7 tumbles in a victim/target much like the 5.56. The 50AE and 44 Mag both just punch a big hole in their targets. Either way, whoever's getting hit is in a world of hurt.
I don't think this thread has been anywhere near the OP for a long time.
I don't think this thread has been anywhere near the OP for a long time.
That doesn't mean it can't return, of course
.The 5.7 tumbles in a victim/target much like the 5.56. The 50AE and 44 Mag both just punch a big hole in their targets
ohhhh, I get it... the tumble is important
So,
since we all know the 50BMG fails to tumble in folks unfortunate enough to get shot by one, and we know the 5.7 will tumble upon hitting the target (Heck, sometime it starts tumble/wobble before hitting).... so it seems obvious now that the tumbly 5.7 should do more damage than just a hole from the inferior FailureToTumble 50bmg.
I guess if tumble-failing 650gr 50bmg is 2d12,
then the weee tiny 31gr 5.7 Tumblemiester should do 2d16
The Earth is flat? There are still people, TO THIS DAY, who believe a .45 ACP round can knock a woman off her feet through sheer momentum!
Bam.What's up? Is any of the old guard still around?
Ragitsu wrote:
Ragitsu wrote:
malbur wrote: