Challenge rating adjustment for feats - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Challenge rating adjustment for feats

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kjakan
Apr 21, 2008 9:19:56 How many feats should a template provide to justify a +1 increase in Challenge Rating?

I am looking into creating a set of basic NPC profession templates for mooks such as guards, police officers and such. The idea is to flesh out the "professional" aspect of the character without just adding a lot of levels. Lots of levels means lots of hp, and lots of hp means the mooks just last too long.

So I'm working on a system for NPC enhacement through simply applying a professional template that provides the NPC with certain bonuses such as appropriate skills and proficiencies.

-K
#2
cinanev
Apr 21, 2008 12:05:20 Werewolf and vampire templates grant a +2 to CR.

They provide the following
HD increase
Defense bonus
Special Attack(s)
7-14 Special Qualities
Significant Ability Score Adjustments (+2 to +6 in all abilities for Vampire!)
Extra Skill bonuses
Vampire gains 5 Feats!
Werewolf gains 2 Feats

My take is that a feat is worth roughly a +4 skill bonus or a +1 to +2 bonus for anything else.

A level 1 smart hero (has the fewest extra sweets and more skill focused):
d6 HD; worth about +1 skill points
+36 (9x4) skill points
2-4 Feats (depending on occupation and race); worth +16 skill points
5 Action Points; worth +10 skill points
1 Talent; worth +2 skill points
+1 Will Save; worth +2 skill points
+1 Reputation bonus; worth +1 skill points
(total +68 skill points)
A level 2 Smart hero adds:
+d6 HD; +1 skill points
+1 Action Point; +2 skill points
+1 BAB; +4 skill points
+1 Will save; +2 skill points
+1 Feat; +4 skill points
+1 Defense; +4 skill points
(total +17 skill points)

So a level 2 Smart Hero is worth up to and about +85 skill points in class features.

Figure a level 1 character has +60 to +68 skill points worth of features.
Each additional level adds about +17 skill points worth of features.

That would mean an equivalent level 2 cop just loading up on feats and nothing else would have:

1 HD (1d4) and between 19-21 Feats

Note: d20 Modern may not actually be balanced like this. Your milage may vary.
#3
cinanev
Apr 21, 2008 12:18:41 Left this out:

Each increase in level (from 1 to 2 to 3, etc...) improves the character by 1/4 what they get at level 1.

So figure your mooks are level 1 and you aren't scratch building them.

For every +17 skill points worth of features you put in your template this gives you a +1 CR.

Give +4 to +5 feats per +1 CR as an example.

Would have to crunch the math in a more detailed way to get to an exact balance. And it seems that Wizards just kinda does CR adjustment and level by "what feels right" rather than apply any hard math behind it.
#4
kjakan
Apr 22, 2008 2:28:51 I agree: +1 CR for +4 feats should do nicely.

-K
#5
backstabbist
Apr 22, 2008 11:48:14 A problem I see with the plan that +4 Feats = +1 CR
is that if you apply that to the vampire, in the negative, -4 Feats = -1 CR
you end up with a +1 CR Lil'Vampey template just 4 feats short of full on Vampire. You get all the HD, Def, Specials, SkillBonuses, and insane Atrib Bonuses for just +1 cr.

Looking at it this way, what else would you have to pull off the Vampire to say AB&C are +1cr and XYZ&Feats are the other +1cr of the +2Vampire... Just how much are you willing to leave on the LilVampie +1cr template if you remove Feats&XYZ = 1cr from full vamp
#6
kjakan
Apr 22, 2008 15:49:02 I don't think I quite follow. I'm just loking for something like this:

Soldier Professional Template
This template can be added to any Ordinary character.
Challenge Rating: As character +2
Feats: Same as the character. The Soldier Professional gains the following bonus feats: Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium), Athletic, Educated (Streetwise, Tactics), Personal Firearms Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any one assault rifle). If the character has a Wisdom score of 13+ he also gains the Advanced Firearms Proficiency and Burstfire feats.

Mook Professional Template
This template can be added to any Ordinary character.
Challenge rating: As character +1
Attack bonus: As character +1
Feats: Same as character. The Mook Professional gains the following bonus feats: Combat Martial Arts, Weapon Finesse (unarmed), Weapon Focus (unarmed).

As character concepts these are obviously pretty weak. They don't necessarilly mesh well with the various kinds of ordinaries provided in the rule book, particularilly the more advanced ones. However, for those situations where you need a level 2 soldier, adding the Soldier Professional to the low-level thug, bounty hunter can give you a passable grunt.

-K
#7
backstabbist
Apr 22, 2008 22:04:58 What I was trying to say is +4 Feats dos not equal +1 CR.
It takes much more than just +4 Feats to be worth a +1CR.

Given the Vampire example,
If we took 4 Feats from a vampire, it would drop from +2cr Template to just a +1 cr Template. But that just wont fly, because there is way WAY too much benefits still left than the reamining +1cr could balance. To look at it explicitly, one could say that +2 All Attributes was worth +1 cr also.... if we take that away from the vampire as well, it would be +0CR TEmplate yet have insane benefits up that wazoo still.

To make a vampire template,
start with nothing, add 4Feats (+1cr) + AllAttribs +2 to +6(+1cr)
now we are at +2cr and still need to add all the stuff like HD, Def, Attacks, Skills... all that is woth CRs also.

So we cant say that just 4Feats is worth +1 CR,
because the vampire has that, AllAttribs to +6, and a gazillion more bonuses and is only +2cr total.

I'll try another tack on it:
We cannot say the stock radio in a $25k Taurus is worth $5k
because I will order one with no radio & will only want to pay $20k for a new car with no radio. But when I get a car with no radio, they still want over $24k for it... obviously the radio aint worth $5k if the cost without the radio dont drop $5k

We cannot say 4feats is worth +1cr,
cause I will take 4Feats away from vamps for an insanely overpowered +1cr tamplate for my character to have.... I'm gonna play in 3rd level party my guy that has FeatlessVamp (+1cr) Template on a Strong1/Fast1, so I paid for all those (6)+2Attribs & HD & Def & Skill & Specials. Unballanced? You bettcha, because taking 4 feats from a Vamp dont drop it a CR... so adding 4 feats dont raise it a cr.

Give a standard Kobald over +40 Feats for +10CR so my 10th level party can get easy XPs.
#8
cinanev
Apr 22, 2008 22:51:12 CR is patently busted.

All the math in the world will never figure out why the vampire template gives just a +2 CR (for example). Just eyeballing the laundry list of improved HD, special qualities, ability bonuses, skill bonuses, and extra feats would seem to warrant something MUCH higher. But a +2 CR is the same as what the werewolf gets, and a werewolf has maybe half the goodies a vampire gets?

Per the d20 Moder manual CR is figured by picking an unspecified party of 4 characters, if they fight a monster with a CR equal to their average level it should consume 1/4 of their resources. That's it. No conversion charts for ramping special qualities, or adding extra feats, or any of that.

The only specific CR calculation you can make (mathematically) is to make a human of X level and either advance him as an Ordinary or a Heroic character. An Ordinary's CR is equal to Character Level -1 (1/2 if level 1), and a Heroic character's CR is equal to their Character Level.

So if you try to scratch build a monster or build a character outside the rules you assign a CR according to "what feels right". In fact if you try to break down any monster or template to see how it deserves the CR given you'll go bonkers, there isn't any consistent math behind any of it. It's like someone just pulled a CR number out of thin air and gave it to them.

If there is real math behind the given CR of something it is probably some kind of very fuzzy sliding scale. That's why I picked a known quantity to judge from (a character class), but openly acknowledge this is only a best guess anyway.

As a quick an dirty rule you could assign about 4 feats for a +1 to CR, but the "feels right" rule would limit that to a max bonus of 8 feats for a +2 CR. Or with my original math +1 CR is up to +17 feats, and an additional +1 CR is +4 more feats (which is how you can probably justify the Vampire Template as a +2 CR).

CR is patently busted.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kjakan Apr 21, 2008 9:19:56	How many feats should a template provide to justify a +1 increase in Challenge Rating? I am looking into creating a set of basic NPC profession templates for mooks such as guards, police officers and such. The idea is to flesh out the "professional" aspect of the character without just adding a lot of levels. Lots of levels means lots of hp, and lots of hp means the mooks just last too long. So I'm working on a system for NPC enhacement through simply applying a professional template that provides the NPC with certain bonuses such as appropriate skills and proficiencies. -K
#2 cinanev Apr 21, 2008 12:05:20	Werewolf and vampire templates grant a +2 to CR. They provide the following HD increase Defense bonus Special Attack(s) 7-14 Special Qualities Significant Ability Score Adjustments (+2 to +6 in all abilities for Vampire!) Extra Skill bonuses Vampire gains 5 Feats! Werewolf gains 2 Feats My take is that a feat is worth roughly a +4 skill bonus or a +1 to +2 bonus for anything else. A level 1 smart hero (has the fewest extra sweets and more skill focused): d6 HD; worth about +1 skill points +36 (9x4) skill points 2-4 Feats (depending on occupation and race); worth +16 skill points 5 Action Points; worth +10 skill points 1 Talent; worth +2 skill points +1 Will Save; worth +2 skill points +1 Reputation bonus; worth +1 skill points (total +68 skill points) A level 2 Smart hero adds: +d6 HD; +1 skill points +1 Action Point; +2 skill points +1 BAB; +4 skill points +1 Will save; +2 skill points +1 Feat; +4 skill points +1 Defense; +4 skill points (total +17 skill points) So a level 2 Smart Hero is worth up to and about +85 skill points in class features. Figure a level 1 character has +60 to +68 skill points worth of features. Each additional level adds about +17 skill points worth of features. That would mean an equivalent level 2 cop just loading up on feats and nothing else would have: 1 HD (1d4) and between 19-21 Feats Note: d20 Modern may not actually be balanced like this. Your milage may vary.
#3 cinanev Apr 21, 2008 12:18:41	Left this out: Each increase in level (from 1 to 2 to 3, etc...) improves the character by 1/4 what they get at level 1. So figure your mooks are level 1 and you aren't scratch building them. For every +17 skill points worth of features you put in your template this gives you a +1 CR. Give +4 to +5 feats per +1 CR as an example. Would have to crunch the math in a more detailed way to get to an exact balance. And it seems that Wizards just kinda does CR adjustment and level by "what feels right" rather than apply any hard math behind it.
#4 kjakan Apr 22, 2008 2:28:51	I agree: +1 CR for +4 feats should do nicely. -K
#5 backstabbist Apr 22, 2008 11:48:14	A problem I see with the plan that +4 Feats = +1 CR is that if you apply that to the vampire, in the negative, -4 Feats = -1 CR you end up with a *+1 CR Lil'Vampey* template just 4 feats short of full on Vampire**. You get all the HD, Def, Specials, SkillBonuses, and insane Atrib Bonuses for just +1 cr. Looking at it this way, what else would you have to pull off the Vampire to say AB&C are +1cr and XYZ&Feats are the other +1cr of the +2Vampire... Just how much are you willing to leave on the LilVampie +1cr template if you remove Feats&XYZ = 1cr from full vamp
#6 kjakan Apr 22, 2008 15:49:02	I don't think I quite follow. I'm just loking for something like this: Soldier Professional Template This template can be added to any Ordinary character. Challenge Rating: As character +2 Feats: Same as the character. The Soldier Professional gains the following bonus feats: Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium), Athletic, Educated (Streetwise, Tactics), Personal Firearms Proficiency, Weapon Focus (any one assault rifle). If the character has a Wisdom score of 13+ he also gains the Advanced Firearms Proficiency and Burstfire feats. Mook Professional Template This template can be added to any Ordinary character. Challenge rating: As character +1 Attack bonus: As character +1 Feats: Same as character. The Mook Professional gains the following bonus feats: Combat Martial Arts, Weapon Finesse (unarmed), Weapon Focus (unarmed). As character concepts these are obviously pretty weak. They don't necessarilly mesh well with the various kinds of ordinaries provided in the rule book, particularilly the more advanced ones. However, for those situations where you need a level 2 soldier, adding the Soldier Professional to the low-level thug, bounty hunter can give you a passable grunt. -K
#7 backstabbist Apr 22, 2008 22:04:58	What I was trying to say is +4 Feats dos not equal +1 CR. It takes much more than just +4 Feats to be worth a +1CR. Given the Vampire example, If we took 4 Feats from a vampire, it would drop from +2cr Template to just a +1 cr Template. But that just wont fly, because there is way WAY too much benefits still left than the reamining +1cr could balance. To look at it explicitly, one could say that +2 All Attributes was worth +1 cr also.... if we take that away from the vampire as well, it would be +0CR TEmplate yet have insane benefits up that wazoo still. To make a vampire template, start with nothing, add 4Feats (+1cr) + AllAttribs +2 to +6(+1cr) now we are at +2cr and still need to add all the stuff like HD, Def, Attacks, Skills... all that is woth CRs also. So we cant say that just 4Feats is worth +1 CR, because the vampire has that, AllAttribs to +6, and a gazillion more bonuses and is only +2cr total. I'll try another tack on it: We cannot say the stock radio in a $25k Taurus is worth $5k because I will order one with no radio & will only want to pay $20k for a new car with no radio. But when I get a car with no radio, they still want over $24k for it... obviously the radio aint worth $5k if the cost without the radio dont drop $5k We cannot say 4feats is worth +1cr, cause I will take 4Feats away from vamps for an insanely overpowered +1cr tamplate for my character to have.... I'm gonna play in 3rd level party my guy that has FeatlessVamp (+1cr) Template on a Strong1/Fast1, so I paid for all those (6)+2Attribs & HD & Def & Skill & Specials. Unballanced? You bettcha, because taking 4 feats from a Vamp dont drop it a CR... so adding 4 feats dont raise it a cr. Give a standard Kobald over +40 Feats for +10CR so my 10th level party can get easy XPs.
#8 cinanev Apr 22, 2008 22:51:12	CR is patently busted. All the math in the world will never figure out why the vampire template gives just a +2 CR (for example). Just eyeballing the laundry list of improved HD, special qualities, ability bonuses, skill bonuses, and extra feats would seem to warrant something MUCH higher. But a +2 CR is the same as what the werewolf gets, and a werewolf has maybe half the goodies a vampire gets? Per the d20 Moder manual CR is figured by picking an unspecified party of 4 characters, if they fight a monster with a CR equal to their average level it should consume 1/4 of their resources. That's it. No conversion charts for ramping special qualities, or adding extra feats, or any of that. The only specific CR calculation you can make (mathematically) is to make a human of X level and either advance him as an Ordinary or a Heroic character. An Ordinary's CR is equal to Character Level -1 (1/2 if level 1), and a Heroic character's CR is equal to their Character Level. So if you try to scratch build a monster or build a character outside the rules you assign a CR according to "what feels right". In fact if you try to break down any monster or template to see how it deserves the CR given you'll go bonkers, there isn't any consistent math behind any of it. It's like someone just pulled a CR number out of thin air and gave it to them. If there is real math behind the given CR of something it is probably some kind of very fuzzy sliding scale. That's why I picked a known quantity to judge from (a character class), but openly acknowledge this is only a best guess anyway. As a quick an dirty rule you could assign about 4 feats for a +1 to CR, but the "feels right" rule would limit that to a max bonus of 8 feats for a +2 CR. Or with my original math +1 CR is up to +17 feats, and an additional +1 CR is +4 more feats (which is how you can probably justify the Vampire Template as a +2 CR). CR is patently busted.