i have a fast hero with point blank shot, double tap, and two weapon fighting.
i plan to go down the road of pistols blazing. i have the prerequisites for the gunslinger class but wanted to know what people thought of this class,
i welcome input on this plus any thoughts on worthwhile skills feats etc.
all ideas welcome.
All the stunts & tricks in the world to get 11 attacks per round dont do you a bit of good if those attacks are at -17Tohit and worse.
Hit what you shoot at first, missing 11 times dont win battles.
Get some BAB to hit what you shoot at.
Are there any Advanced Classes in the Core and Future Book that are "good" to take?
I mean, most of them look lame to me, and the ones I thought were better get deconstructed on these forums.
Actually, I think it is time for a new edition along the lines of SAGA...
Have a wonderful day!
Such as Tough doesnt get Treat Injury.
The core concept is he takes the punishment, but we are to have no knowlege of how we heal from the constant punishment we take. I just cant imagine a guy that is in the business of taking hits is not suposes to know what to do once he's hit... call 911 rather than FirstAide?
While cross-class skills can work, they don't work nearly as well as if you had dipped into a class that did have them and brought it up to the max of that level, for the same cost as about half that amount if you didn't dip. Some things you can get enough bonuses that it doesn't matter (Sleight of hand, give a guy an 18 dex, small gun with +2 to sleight of hand checks by WL rules, concealed holster, and he already has a +10 bonus, you only need ranks for using it and in case of hands-on searching), but not all skills can get equip bonuses like that.
Nodaisho kinda just mentioned my point.
It may be all well and good for "Roll up an 8th Level Guy" to just go
Tough3 , Dedicated1 , Tough3 , Dedicated1
and have the 8th level guy at 11ranks TreatInjury.
He starts playing as a Toughguy with first aide.
But playing him from 1st up,
As a Toughguy with first aide, wasting skillpoints in CC so he can start doing what his char should do... he will end up 11points wasted by cc at 8th level. To simply say he should start with Dedicated to get a gob of skills & firstaide wouldnt be a Toughguy but a tough aspiring medic, as well as come across a little metagamey: Dont do what is logical for the char so you can best utilizethe rules for max gain.
But that is the Dip.
Toughs would be ill advised to CC treat injury when they should just dip another class just for that one skill.
in D&D the penalties for multiclassing made it not worth while. but i guess in D20 modern it seams to be the thing to do???
yup. You pretty much have to multiclass due to the basic classes being a 'archtype' rather than truely generic. D&D Fighter could go with ranged or melee, but Modern Strong really hamstrings ranged combatants, while the Modern Fast cant decide if it is a theif or a Ranged Combatant... so for balance it does ranged combat poorly.
Orion-
I just do not subscribe to the mandate that all Tough heros must be retards that are incapable of learning first aide without repeating the course (CC 2x Rank). The model of the archetype is someone that takes a lot of hits, healing is his schtick, its what he does with that massive Con... except he has obsticals place between him & learning first aide.
If you dont want to embrace having max ranks in first aide for a Toughguy, ok, lets say at 8th level he had stopped putting points in when it got to 5 (enough to make decent rolls). Then he would have wasted 5 points rather than 11. Still wasting points. Still punishing a Tough that is far more interested in keeping himself alive that influencing the actions of others (Intimidate) or Ride... Ride is a modern toughguy thing but first aide he needs to be handicapped trying to learn?
Look at it this way,
if we were designing the game, and trying to decide what classes get Treat Injury, Dedicted (just because it is a Wis skill) and Tough are the logical choices.
I just do not subscribe to the mandate that all Tough heros must be retards that are incapable of learning first aide without repeating the course (CC 2x Rank).
I don't look at it that way. To me, the class skills are the things that that class is especially good at, and everyone else has has the average ability.
The model of the archetype is someone that takes a lot of hits, healing is his schtick, its what he does with that massive Con...
Actually, um, no, with his "massive Con" (thank you for that image) he takes damage, as you've just said. Healing someone else's damage is a different schtick entirely.
Still punishing a Tough
Oh please. Nobody's being "punished." That's a word people use to make themselves look like the injured party.
that is far more interested in keeping himself alive that influencing the actions of others (Intimidate) or Ride... Ride is a modern toughguy thing but first aide he needs to be handicapped trying to learn?
Scaring people and riding around on a motorcycle seem far more integral to a "tough" character than treating injuries, frankly.
if we were designing the game, and trying to decide what classes get Treat Injury, Dedicted (just because it is a Wis skill) and Tough are the logical choices.
Actually, I think giving it only to Dedicated is a way to make all the other classes rely on the Dedicated hero more, who can easily get dumped in favour of the flashier class builds. Also, I suspect it's a carry-over from D&D, where the Cleric (Wis-based) is the de facto healer.
But hey, talk to your GM. Maybe she will be okay with spreading Treat Injury around a little and giving more classes access to it? It's not breaking the rules if everyone at the table agrees to it.
Still punishing a Tough
Oh please. Nobody's being "punished." That's a word people use to make themselves look like the injured party.
Somebody has to have been injured, otherwise we wouldnt be talking about Treat Injury skill
I think I found a vid that captures the Fast Hero archtype well,
an autofire gunbunny, Firearms Prof, AFP(autofire), BurstFire, maybe even ExoticFirearm, and goodies like Farshot PointBlank
Definately not Strong or Tough
edit: I would say that fast would be the scout, but he rolled low on his HP, and took full improved speed. Max ranks in jump, though.
Isn't the problem solved, however, by the tough character taking an occupation that gives treat injury as a class skill? Adventurer seems like a nice one for that, given it has both treat injury AND a bonus occupation feat.
I agree that cross-classing for treat injury is not a good way to go: not only do you have to do a two for one to get ranks, you are limited in the number of cross-class ranks you can have. Given treat injury requires a DC15, you it seems like you'd a fairly high bonus to even have a consistent shot at restoring hit points.
Still punishing a Tough that is far more interested in keeping himself alive that influencing the actions of others (Intimidate) or Ride... Ride is a modern toughguy thing but first aide he needs to be handicapped trying to learn?
Look at it this way,
if we were designing the game, and trying to decide what classes get Treat Injury, Dedicted (just because it is a Wis skill) and Tough are the logical choices.
Wait, how is tough guy = first aid knowledge logical again?
Maybe for the role/archetype YOU are assigning for the character YOU are making, sure. But if you look at movie tough guys, how many of them are actually trained medical experts?
The Man With No Name - one of the toughest movie characters ever. Medical knowledge? No.
Dirty Harry (probably tmwnn's grandson) - again, no medical knowledge
John McLean - yippie ki-yay is not the verbal component for a heal spell
IMO, Smart and Dedicated are the two logical choices, not tough.
As a tough guy, he takes a lot of damage. But as demonstrated, he also is the one that has to stop his own bleeding, and that is frequent for a tough guy. How many times have we seen the classic
TreatInjury 3Ranks: "Rip Shirt & Tie Over BulletHole"
medical technique used in movies. 3 Ranks dont make you a brain surgeon, but get you some HP to be climbing a rope with that shot arm 3 scenes later that day.
One way or another, the bleeding will stop on its own.
Trained medical expert is not what I'd call a guy with 3 or 4 ranks of TreatInjury.
...
Anyhoo, the OP was talking about a TWF guy.
I would say take Fighter with feats in Martial(ranged,Modern),TWF,PB,FS
Or Strong with a GunFriendly starting occupation. Just throw away all the stuff Strong gives and get DoubleTap & TWF when you level. Then take Martial Artist and throw away all the stuff that gives.
Who picked the glass out of McCains feet in #1?
As a tough guy, he takes a lot of damage. But as demonstrated, he also is the one that has to stop his own bleeding, and that is frequent for a tough guy. How many times have we seen the classic
TreatInjury 3Ranks: "Rip Shirt & Tie Over BulletHole"
medical technique used in movies. 3 Ranks dont make you a brain surgeon, but get you some HP to be climbing a rope with that shot arm 3 scenes later that day.
One way or another, the bleeding will stop on its own.
Trained medical expert is not what I'd call a guy with 3 or 4 ranks of TreatInjury.
...
Anyhoo, the OP was talking about a TWF guy.
I would say take Fighter with feats in Martial(ranged,Modern),TWF,PB,FS
Or Strong with a GunFriendly starting occupation. Just throw away all the stuff Strong gives and get DoubleTap & TWF when you level. Then take Martial Artist and throw away all the stuff that gives.
Instead of "take this for that but drop all the other stuff", is there a way for us to come up with our own classes using all the talents and such from basic and advanced classes, and combining them differently (to make more sense)? I would like to do that along the lines of military "kits".
Honestly, some of the talents and special abilities of some classes are useless...
Have a wonderful day!
is there a way for us to...
Yes, of course. Ask your GM if you can swap out a skill or a talent. None of use are bound to the rules. It's a game. Not a suicide pact.
Who picked the glass out of McCains feet in #1?
As a tough guy, he takes a lot of damage. But as demonstrated, he also is the one that has to stop his own bleeding, and that is frequent for a tough guy. How many times have we seen the classic "Rip Shirt & Tie Over BulletHole"
medical technique used in movies.
That's what we call untrained medical treatment. He knows he's bleeding, he knows it's a bad thing, so he does what he can (and rolls a Wisdom check).
A boxer has medical personnel standing by and treating his injuries.
A football player has the same.
My friend who was a medic with the US Army over in Iraq has told me about soldiers whose concept of first aid consisted of band-aids and vodka to drink away the pain.
How often have you seen Bruce Willis, Stalone, the Governator, or Mel Gibson treating injuries? They take a pounding, sure. They keep on going, giving the bad guys hell, sure. And all the while, they are dripping with blood, groaning in pain, limping, and swinging around broken arms. Why? Because their level of Treat Injury consists of ripping a shirt and wrapping it around a wound, or hitting themselves with a hot poker to cauterize a wound.
As a Boy Scout for most of my life I probably know more first aid than any of them, and I still wouldn't consider myself to have more than 3 or so ranks in Treat Injury.
Willis pulled glass from his feet
Gunpowder field cauterize sound familiar?
Because their level of Treat Injury consists of ripping a shirt and wrapping it around a wound, or hitting themselves with a hot poker to cauterize a wound.
Which is the first 3 ranks of Treat Injury that my mother doesnt have.
My friend who was a medic with the US Army over in Iraq has told me about soldiers whose concept of first aid consisted of band-aids and vodka to drink away the pain
Ahhh good, I see they did away with that annoyoing Common Task training & frequent testing. It was a real pain learning all them procedures, and really, why bother training all soldiers on Feild/Pressure Dressings and Map Orientation anyway. The dont trust me with maps, and its not like I ever get to choose where we go either.
Also, pulling glass out of your foot does not require any ranks in Treat Injury. The dumbest person on the planet could figure out that if you have something sharp sticking in you, you should pull it out. Most people know how to pull out a splinter, and glass is, in many cases, the same thing, aprticularly if you are already shoving off the pain.
I don't know your mother, or why she wouldn't know to dress a wound, but everyone I know above the age of 5 knows that if you get cut, you cover the injury with something, be it a paper towel, a napkin, a piece of shirt, or whatever. My few "ranks" in TI, mean that I know that I really want something sterile in doing this, and that plain, carbon-lettered newspaper, is very good for this, and that the sweat-stained, dirt-covered cloth that most action heroes use, is a pretty poor choice usually. One rank in treat injury is probably enough to figure out how to stop bleeding (apply pressure, elevate, etc...).
Stalone was sewing on himself
Willis pulled glass from his feet
Gunpowder field cauterize sound familiar?
Stallone would have ranks in Treat Injury, either from spending cross-class points, taking a couple levels in Dedicated (likely), or USING THE BLOODY STARTING OCCUPATIONS! That's why they're there! So you can take a basic class (NOT archetype) and add a personal twist to it to make your character more rounded.
Pulling glass from your feet isn't medical training, it's common sense.
Second when was Stallone sewing up his own injuries?
*cough* in Rambo #something *cough*
Edit: I'd go as far as saying that Sly (in the First Blood movies anyway) has the Surgery feat, as sewing oneself isn't something you do with basic first aid acquired through CC skills.
But yeah, John Rambo isn't all Tough Hero.
I dodge more work by 9am, than most people dodge all day"
"Dont 'Sir' me boy,
I'm a Spec4, I sham for a living. Go find someone who cares & dont wake me again till we break for lunch"
"No sir! We've been up since the crack of noon, sir!"
Ahhh good, I see they did away with that annoyoing Common Task training & frequent testing. It was a real pain learning all them procedures, and really, why bother training all soldiers on Feild/Pressure Dressings and Map Orientation anyway. The dont trust me with maps, and its not like I ever get to choose where we go either.
Yes... Good! Not only were they a pain to learn, but how long did you retain the information? And I had no other medical training after Basic... Map reading was a joke too... I never had a map in my regular unit! All I got was an azimuth!
Have a wonderful day!
"I the army,
I dodge more work by 9am, than most people dodge all day"
That is because people like me are still asleep until 2pm at least, I ruin the curve.
See if your GM will just swap out some Strong feats
Out: Great Cleave, Improved Brawl, Improved Combat Martial Arts
In : Point Blank Shot, Farshot, DoubleTap
Sure the guy still has the option to take Cleave, Brawl, or CMA... but now has the option to take Ranged as well instead of overly hamstringing ranged for the ability to take GREATER/IMPROVED tiers of fisticuffs.
A gunman is already giving up the insane Evasion and unbalanced +3Def by not taking Fast, just to be a marksman with BAB. Least we can do is not make him throw the bonus feats away along with the throwaway Talents.
Its not that far off from Helix Warrior getting ExoticFirearm(no PFP?), Autofire, FarShot, & DeadAim. Why give a mule all that ranged stuff if it wasnt ok for gunman to have Full BAB. If we add the starting gun stuff to Strong, it make sense that Helix continues with the advanced gun stuff.
Heck, you might ask to swap out AnimalAffinity to gain PFirearmProf too.
"I'm so strong, my dog gets my slippers & paper"