Chases and Races - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Chases and Races

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
TheRealOrion
Jan 08, 2009 20:35:19 I've been trying to come up with a decent way to do chases in d20 and it's continuing to elude me. Given a flat, straight run, characters just move at 30-feet per round, so they either never catch up or immediately overtake (depending on how far apart they are to start with). Even if you introduce corners and other obstacles, it takes the same number of actions for everybody, so the problem remains. I see two possible ways to fix this.

1) Introduce skill/ability checks to avoid certain kinds of obstacles. Balance DC 15 (?) to turn a corner at full speed, Jump DC 10 to leap over a turn-style, etc. This way, the skills/abilities of the character would actually determine who wins. The downside to this is that it doesn't take into account how just-plain fast you might be.

2) Grant a modifier to (N)PCs' actual movement rates based on Dexterity, or perhaps Strength, and maybe some kind of feats. The downside to this is that it's a pain in the ass to apply. If everyone's running around with slightly different Speeds all the time, combat could turn into a dog's breakfast, and calculating different Speeds for all your NPCs (if you're running a game) would be even more of a nightmare than figuring out all of their skill bonuses.

Any better ideas on how to do this? I've looked at the "Hot Pursuit" rules (a downloadable PDF), but they're basically a whole new rule system for adjudicating chases. I'd like to come up with something that I can integrate into a combat, so that one of your choices in combat is to "chase," and so that everyone can use the same initiative rules.
#2
nclanceman
Jan 08, 2009 22:29:53 This game needs a consolidated 'Athletics' skill.

Aside from that, use a flat out Strength Check (DC 15) to increase a runners speed by five feet per round. If they want to move faster, add five points to the DC for every additional five feet. A person can keep running faster than their standard run speed (four times their base speed, usually 120ft.) for a number of rounds equal to half their Constitution score. After that, they must pass a DC 10 Constitution check, adding 2 for each check made, or stop running. After that, the character must rest for 10 + CON Score rounds before running again.

-Turning 45 degrees during a chase is a DC 10 Balance check, with +5 added for each additional 45 degrees turned. Failure by less than 5 indicates that they turned inefficiently and add 2 points to their next Constitution check for running. Failure by more than 5 is a fall. If a character is taking the turn at less than a double move, add +2 to the check. If they are taking the turn faster than their Run speed, make the check at a -2 penalty.

How's that?
#3
TheRealOrion
Jan 09, 2009 2:00:12 I'm not a fan of the "Athletics" skill, and I'm always ambivalent about which ability to use for running speed... but the rest of it looks pretty good! I'd never thought of using an ability to check to add to your Speed from round-to-round. It's a little more complex, but it adds that sense of having to push yourself, which I like. The turning checks make a lot of sense, too. Thanks, man. Good stuff.
#4
backstabbist
Jan 09, 2009 11:53:39 I favor the Stunt Or Penalty plan for chases.

The Rabbit can choose to not run the simplest course, but to attempt a Stunt that would cost a Sq of movement if failed.
These dont have to be prexisting on the map, one can use d20 Coarseness to assume there is some obstacle , plants/cabinets/carts to grab or plain ole furniture to maneuver... not important what is is, it is just a generic Stunt DC
The Rabbit chooses a DC to perform (picks any number he wants), and that sets the DC for both the Rabbit & the Wolf. If the DC is failed, that spends an extra 5' Movement to move thru that square. (This include just simply "take the corner really fast without wipeout" or upto "I JackieChan up the wall to get past a row of filecabinets")
If the Rabbit makes low DC Stunts, the Wolf will have an easy time following. If the Rabbot tries high DC Stunts, the Wolf is more likely to fail and fall behind... but the Rabbit has to make it too or he loses speed. If the Rabbit fails more than the Wolf, he will get caught. If the Wolf fails more than the Rabbit, the Rabbit gets farther from the chaser.
#5
TheRealOrion
Jan 09, 2009 12:59:49 Okay, I think I follow most of that. But what constitutes a "stunt" exactly? Are talking about tossing a fruitcart in the way of your pursuer, that kind of thing?

And would this resolution mechanic apply to, say, leaping from rooftop to rooftop after a villain?
#6
shinobi_guyver
Jan 09, 2009 13:20:55
That's what it sounds like, Orion.

I like how it's abstract enough to work, allows for a bit of roleplay, and can work for any kind chase or race, be it on foot, vehicle, mech, starship, etc.

Although I do think the DCs should be set by the DM.

This could be especially handy if there are plenty of obstacles in the way.

The more obstacles, the higher the DC as you go. Using this to run hurdles on a track, you could start with a DC of 5 or 10 and increase it by 2 or 3 for each hurdle cleared.
#7
backstabbist
Jan 09, 2009 13:33:19 Yes.

Fruitcake.

or
"I JumpDC23 a large Courseness in the meeting, 28 no problem.. let see them make that!"
ok.. he makes it and looks cooler than you as he flew threw the air
"Oh yeah... I'll DexDC28 some Courseness as I cross the office oops."
Looks like he's gonna gain on ya... Yup, he's all mimbly-bimbly across the d20courseness
"Crud, I round that corner too fast by grabbing a corseness StrDC25 oh yeah"
Goodnews, looks like he cant make that same grab

As for Rooftops,
that seems to just plain old Jump distance.... the GM has to tell you what the distance/DC is and you its a matter of guts to see if they want to try. If the GM says at the end of the roof is a DC25 jump, the PC has to decide if he SHOULD even TRY that, cause gravity is rarely the players friend. Now what happens to the chase if the players figure the jump is too dangerous for them.... The RoofTop example is where the GM has to do a lot of OnTheFly creattion of an obstacle course of DCs that the players dont really have any say other than Try Or Die
#8
TheRealOrion
Jan 09, 2009 14:35:12 Unless they make a damn good Spot check, they don't necessarily know how wide a gap is between buildings. They have to eyeball it and give it their best. That said, I'm hoping to use these chasing rules for Phoenix, where people often have a Jump modifier of +40, so it's not as big a problem as it might appear.

PS: fruitcart
#9
backstabbist
Jan 09, 2009 16:53:02 Oh, fruitCART.... see, now that makes a lot more sense than fruitcake.
my bad, guess I read it too fast
#10
nobodez_here
Jan 09, 2009 17:24:24 If I remember correctly from my Master GM test for the RPGA, there are rules for how to run complex chases in the v.3.5 DMG (I know, this is d20 M, but it's close enough).

From the "Carrying, Movement, and Exploration" section of the v.3.5 DMG.
In round-by-round movement, simply counting off squares, it’s impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it’s no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.
When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.

#11
TheRealOrion
Jan 09, 2009 21:13:49 Yeah, I've read that bit of the DMG, but thanks for posting it! It's great if you just want to resolve the chase right away, but I want chases to go on for a few rounds and even be as fun as combat.

Oh, fruitCART.... see, now that makes a lot more sense than fruitcake.
my bad, guess I read it too fast

Oh, no biggie. It's a great mental picture, actually. "You'll never take me alive, you bastards! Not when toss this fruitcake at you!"
#12
narukagami
Jan 09, 2009 21:45:02 Have you looked at skill challenges from 4e? Its one of the few ideas that can be ported over with no work at all, and represents what you're looking for.

Pretty much will change it so a series of dex checks ends the chase instead of one. Depending on the obstacles and length of the chase, other athletic-type skills and even Con checks could add to the number of successes, or give a bonus to the primary skill/check needed for successes to "win" the challenge. As a matter of fact, a chase is one of the specific skill challenge examples they give in the DMG.
#13
nclanceman
Jan 09, 2009 22:17:25
Oh, no biggie. It's a great mental picture, actually. "You'll never take me alive, you bastards! Not when toss this fruitcake at you!"

Don't joke about that. Fruitcake is a deadly weapon!

Fruitcake
Small Improvised Weapon, 1d6 + STR Bludgeoning Damage, 20ft.

Special- Armor Piercing
One treasured holiday tradition is to give a fruitcake to someone. This tradition has never included actually eating the damn thing. Thus, all the fruitcake that was ever made was made in 1910, and some of them have not aged well. This should be especially apparent to the person being hit by the fruitcake. Attacks with a fruitcake ignore two points of hardness.

Special- Insulin Shock
When used as a melee weapon, one can be made to force someone else to eat the fruitcake. Horrifying, I know. The victim must make a DC 15 Fortitude check or become Fatigued. If the victim fails by 10 or more, they become Nauseated. Whichever way this goes, it only works once.
#14
backstabbist
Jan 09, 2009 23:33:23 egad!
I cant believe I failed to stat the Fruitcake.

Bravo Lanceman, glad one of us was on the ball
#15
beefy_mongoose
Jan 11, 2009 19:14:26 i like backstabbists idea but what if you were the persuer? would you just tell the character he made this rediculous wall climb/jump and then have them decide to do it without knowing the actuall DC or just tell them the DC right out? also there needs to be a way to avoid the obstical by making another skill check instead. one thing thats confusing me is if the PC knocks over a fruitcart with fruit all over the place why does the character have to make a jump check even though it doesnt include jumping. what might be a good idea is the PC would have to make str check to knock it over then the npc would have to make a balance or jump check to get past the fruit without falling. to keep with your system, in some cases (GMs disgression) the PC or NPC can choose to make up a DC themselves, for everypoint added or subtracted from the DC then also translates to the save DC by a 1 to 1 ratio. an example, if the strong really puts his weight into the cart adding +7 to knocking it over the fast hero then has to make a check at +7 the normal DC to get past the obstacle. this way a character can use his stats to his advantage more often. if you have a strong hero running from a fast hero the strong hero wouldnt be jumping around, he would be knocking stuff over and creating obstacles for the fast hero. If both the PC and NPC do the same thing then only one DC is needed of course. this may make it a little harder for the DM having to make up two or maybe even three DCs instead of one some of the time but it makes more sence to me. also a good idea is to write out some DC checks for common items, this would speed up gameplay dramatically.
#16
backstabbist
Jan 11, 2009 19:53:01 Reasonable considerations all.

When it comes to the PCs being the Wolf and having to describe what the Rabbit did... it depends on the campaign story. The GM "FudgeFactor" of helping the Rabbit if the story needs him to get away, or intentionally choosing easier DCs than the rabbit would worry about, is upto the GM. Due to the +mods aspect of the game the PCs dont actually learn that much from hearing the Rabbit made a DC25 jump... maybe the rabbit has +15, maybe its +5.

GM discression is required to judge synergies of a Jump / Str / Dex / WeaponFocus PoleVault or whatnot. If we step back and run it fast & coarse, we dont have to worry so much about players trying to 'change the subject' of a JumpDC20 to be a pondering of DemolitionsDC20 somehow so their jumpless Smart wont get killed.

As for my plan being rough for the guy in back to catch up,
you gotta remember that I am a gun nut and would expect Ranged Weapons to demonstrate why maintaining a chase distance for extended periods is bad.

"If it keeps up like this we'll never catch up to him"
Guess we just shoot him from behind while he runs
#17
TheRealOrion
Jan 11, 2009 20:21:16 The trouble with resolving fights with guns (especially d20) is that it presupposes that what you really want is to kill the "rabbit." If you shoot at him/her, you either have no effect on their ability to run (because they don't reach 0HPs) or you kill them. There's no "shoot to wound and slow them down." So if your goal is to kill the "rabbit," then why chase at all? To me, chasining implies that you have other plans, like interrogation, or you're just not interested in killing, so firearms, logically, won't really come into it all that much.

To address the general discussion, I'm thinking more and more than the soul of a chase is designing the environment, not instituting special rules. If you provide nothing but a flat plain: boring chase. If you provide a building site, a busy dance club, a snow-covered street filled with on-lookers, then you have a more interesting chase. It's a lot like movies, in that way.
#18
beefy_mongoose
Jan 12, 2009 18:35:45 When moving through a crowd a PC/NPC has to make either a str or dex check, players decision. if the PC/NPC fails the save they are reduced to half speed untill the end of the round. the following tables are to determine the the str/dex DC.

Crowd density
the following numbers are used to make the base str/dex DC save
1 person per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 5
2 people per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 10
3 people per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 15
1 person per 5 square feet = str/dex DC 20
2 person per 5 square feet = str/dex DC 25
etc...

Crowd Speed*
the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save
Standing = -2
Walking = +0
Jogging = +2
Running = +4
Above full speed = +6
*special, look below

Crowd Direction
the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save
With you = -2*
45 degrees with = -1*
speratically = +0
Perpendicular = +2
45 degrees against = +3
against = +4
*special, look below

Special
When the crowd is moving with are almost with you crowd speed can be beneficial. if the crowd is moving with or at 45 degrees with you then the crowd speed rules above do not apply. the graph below shows the new modifier values when these cercumstances apply.
the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save
same speed = -4 (both running)
one speed catagorie diffrence = -2 (hero running, crowd double move)
two speed catagorie diffrence = +0 (hero running, crowd walking)
three speed catagorie diffrence = +2 (hero above full speed, crowd walking)

Domino Effect
as many would call the domino effect if the crowd has a density of 2 or more people per 5 square feet these rules apply. if the PC or NPC running uses a strength check to get through the crowd and succeeds the role by 5 or more he knocks a person in the crowd over, succeed by ten 2 people. the PC/NPC can choose to take extra care to not knock people over by choosing to increase the DC by there choice. if they fail the original DC there reduced to half speed, if they fail the new DC with there modification they knock people over (as long as if it is still five over) if they succeed the new save then they do not knock people over. When a person falls within the crowd the following happens. The GM has to make a reflex save for the crowd (reflex save of +0), the base DC is 10 but the crowd speed (above) can effect that DC (standing crowds have to make a DC of 5 not 8). if multiple people are knocked over make the roll for each person. When one or more of the rolls fails then the domino effect occurs, place starting area at random place along movement path. on the crowds first turn after failing a reflex save the domono area has a size catagorie of huge, for every round after that the domino area increases in size by one size catagorie (running crowds increase by two catagories a turn). If a PC or NPC goes through the domino effect area he has to make a balance check.
size large = 10
size huge = 14
Gargantuan = 18
Colossal = 22
if the PC/NPC fails the check then he is reduced to half speed untill he exits the domino effect area, if he fails by more then 5 he falls prone.
#19
AnimeSniper
Jan 12, 2009 18:58:28
Don't joke about that. Fruitcake is a deadly weapon!

Fruitcake
Small Improvised Weapon, 1d6 + STR Bludgeoning Damage, 20ft.

Special- Armor Piercing
One treasured holiday tradition is to give a fruitcake to someone. This tradition has never included actually eating the damn thing. Thus, all the fruitcake that was ever made was made in 1910, and some of them have not aged well. This should be especially apparent to the person being hit by the fruitcake. Attacks with a fruitcake ignore two points of hardness.

Special- Insulin Shock
When used as a melee weapon, one can be made to force someone else to eat the fruitcake. Horrifying, I know. The victim must make a DC 15 Fortitude check or become Fatigued. If the victim fails by 10 or more, they become Nauseated. Whichever way this goes, it only works once.

Don't forget the Fruitcakes that have existed since the first production of the unedible holiday cake... Imagine if you will, in a world not much different then our own where technology has given man access to the stars... Now imagine a future war being ended when one side unleashes a five millenium old fruitcake from orbit on their enemies homeworld via a MAC gun... the enemy is now no more since their homeworld is covered in the resulting duststorm...:D
#20
TheRealOrion
Jan 13, 2009 0:50:20
When moving through a crowd...

Dude, props for the detail, but... too much. I'm looking for a little substance to my chases, not quite that much.
#21
beefy_mongoose
Jan 13, 2009 22:53:13 what about a bluff check to make a drop or something seem higher then it really is? lets say a PC is following a NPC and he jumps over a waist high brick wall. he then makes a bluff check to make it seem like he has fallen a larger amount then normal. this would be like him then yelling like he is falling a far distance. if the PC doesnt make the opposed sense motive check you tell him that it appears the NPC has fallen a great distance. then the PC can decide if he wants to go over that wall or stop at it to see what really happened. Also since the guy is out of sight don't move his character on the map past the wall to keep the effect that he really fell and was injured. do know his true position incase the PC do something cafty that make him being there or not vital. if the players say that he has more moves just say that he is out of sight and you do not know his real position, or something along those terms.
#22
TheRealOrion
Jan 14, 2009 0:00:14 I'd allow it as a separate role, sure, but I think I'd give a minus to the Jump check, because you're concentrating on something else. Sounds fine to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheRealOrion Jan 08, 2009 20:35:19	I've been trying to come up with a decent way to do chases in d20 and it's continuing to elude me. Given a flat, straight run, characters just move at 30-feet per round, so they either never catch up or immediately overtake (depending on how far apart they are to start with). Even if you introduce corners and other obstacles, it takes the same number of actions for everybody, so the problem remains. I see two possible ways to fix this. 1) Introduce skill/ability checks to avoid certain kinds of obstacles. Balance DC 15 (?) to turn a corner at full speed, Jump DC 10 to leap over a turn-style, etc. This way, the skills/abilities of the character would actually determine who wins. The downside to this is that it doesn't take into account how just-plain fast you might be. 2) Grant a modifier to (N)PCs' actual movement rates based on Dexterity, or perhaps Strength, and maybe some kind of feats. The downside to this is that it's a pain in the ass to apply. If everyone's running around with slightly different Speeds all the time, combat could turn into a dog's breakfast, and calculating different Speeds for all your NPCs (if you're running a game) would be even more of a nightmare than figuring out all of their skill bonuses. Any better ideas on how to do this? I've looked at the "Hot Pursuit" rules (a downloadable PDF), but they're basically a whole new rule system for adjudicating chases. I'd like to come up with something that I can integrate into a combat, so that one of your choices in combat is to "chase," and so that everyone can use the same initiative rules.
#2 nclanceman Jan 08, 2009 22:29:53	This game needs a consolidated 'Athletics' skill. Aside from that, use a flat out Strength Check (DC 15) to increase a runners speed by five feet per round. If they want to move faster, add five points to the DC for every additional five feet. A person can keep running faster than their standard run speed (four times their base speed, usually 120ft.) for a number of rounds equal to half their Constitution score. After that, they must pass a DC 10 Constitution check, adding 2 for each check made, or stop running. After that, the character must rest for 10 + CON Score rounds before running again. -Turning 45 degrees during a chase is a DC 10 Balance check, with +5 added for each additional 45 degrees turned. Failure by less than 5 indicates that they turned inefficiently and add 2 points to their next Constitution check for running. Failure by more than 5 is a fall. If a character is taking the turn at less than a double move, add +2 to the check. If they are taking the turn faster than their Run speed, make the check at a -2 penalty. How's that?
#3 TheRealOrion Jan 09, 2009 2:00:12	I'm not a fan of the "Athletics" skill, and I'm always ambivalent about which ability to use for running speed... but the rest of it looks pretty good! I'd never thought of using an ability to check to add to your Speed from round-to-round. It's a little more complex, but it adds that sense of having to push yourself, which I like. The turning checks make a lot of sense, too. Thanks, man. Good stuff.
#4 backstabbist Jan 09, 2009 11:53:39	I favor the Stunt Or Penalty plan for chases. The Rabbit can choose to not run the simplest course, but to attempt a Stunt that would cost a Sq of movement if failed. These dont have to be prexisting on the map, one can use d20 Coarseness to assume there is some obstacle , plants/cabinets/carts to grab or plain ole furniture to maneuver... not important what is is, it is just a generic Stunt DC The Rabbit chooses a DC to perform (picks any number he wants), and that sets the DC for both the Rabbit & the Wolf. If the DC is failed, that spends an extra 5' Movement to move thru that square. (This include just simply "take the corner really fast without wipeout" or upto "I JackieChan up the wall to get past a row of filecabinets") If the Rabbit makes low DC Stunts, the Wolf will have an easy time following. If the Rabbot tries high DC Stunts, the Wolf is more likely to fail and fall behind... but the Rabbit has to make it too or he loses speed. If the Rabbit fails more than the Wolf, he will get caught. If the Wolf fails more than the Rabbit, the Rabbit gets farther from the chaser.
#5 TheRealOrion Jan 09, 2009 12:59:49	Okay, I think I follow most of that. But what constitutes a "stunt" exactly? Are talking about tossing a fruitcart in the way of your pursuer, that kind of thing? And would this resolution mechanic apply to, say, leaping from rooftop to rooftop after a villain?
#6 shinobi_guyver Jan 09, 2009 13:20:55	That's what it sounds like, Orion. I like how it's abstract enough to work, allows for a bit of roleplay, and can work for any kind chase or race, be it on foot, vehicle, mech, starship, etc. Although I do think the DCs should be set by the DM. This could be especially handy if there are plenty of obstacles in the way. The more obstacles, the higher the DC as you go. Using this to run hurdles on a track, you could start with a DC of 5 or 10 and increase it by 2 or 3 for each hurdle cleared.
#7 backstabbist Jan 09, 2009 13:33:19	Yes. Fruitcake. or "I JumpDC23 a large Courseness in the meeting, 28 no problem.. let see them make that!" ok.. he makes it and looks cooler than you as he flew threw the air "Oh yeah... I'll DexDC28 some Courseness as I cross the office oops." Looks like he's gonna gain on ya... Yup, he's all mimbly-bimbly across the d20courseness "Crud, I round that corner too fast by grabbing a corseness StrDC25 oh yeah" Goodnews, looks like he cant make that same grab As for Rooftops, that seems to just plain old Jump distance.... the GM has to tell you what the distance/DC is and you its a matter of guts to see if they want to try. If the GM says at the end of the roof is a DC25 jump, the PC has to decide if he SHOULD even TRY that, cause gravity is rarely the players friend. Now what happens to the chase if the players figure the jump is too dangerous for them.... The RoofTop example is where the GM has to do a lot of OnTheFly creattion of an obstacle course of DCs that the players dont really have any say other than Try Or Die
#8 TheRealOrion Jan 09, 2009 14:35:12	Unless they make a damn good Spot check, they don't necessarily know how wide a gap is between buildings. They have to eyeball it and give it their best. That said, I'm hoping to use these chasing rules for Phoenix, where people often have a Jump modifier of +40, so it's not as big a problem as it might appear. PS: fruitcart
#9 backstabbist Jan 09, 2009 16:53:02	Oh, fruitCART.... see, now that makes a lot more sense than fruitcake. my bad, guess I read it too fast
#10 nobodez_here Jan 09, 2009 17:24:24	If I remember correctly from my Master GM test for the RPGA, there are rules for how to run complex chases in the v.3.5 DMG (I know, this is d20 M, but it's close enough). From the "Carrying, Movement, and Exploration" section of the v.3.5 DMG. In round-by-round movement, simply counting off squares, it’s impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it’s no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one. When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature. Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.
#11 TheRealOrion Jan 09, 2009 21:13:49	Yeah, I've read that bit of the DMG, but thanks for posting it! It's great if you just want to resolve the chase right away, but I want chases to go on for a few rounds and even be as fun as combat. Oh, fruitCART.... see, now that makes a lot more sense than fruitcake. my bad, guess I read it too fast Oh, no biggie. It's a great mental picture, actually. "You'll never take me alive, you bastards! Not when toss this fruitcake at you!"
#12 narukagami Jan 09, 2009 21:45:02	Have you looked at skill challenges from 4e? Its one of the few ideas that can be ported over with no work at all, and represents what you're looking for. Pretty much will change it so a series of dex checks ends the chase instead of one. Depending on the obstacles and length of the chase, other athletic-type skills and even Con checks could add to the number of successes, or give a bonus to the primary skill/check needed for successes to "win" the challenge. As a matter of fact, a chase is one of the specific skill challenge examples they give in the DMG.
#13 nclanceman Jan 09, 2009 22:17:25	Oh, no biggie. It's a great mental picture, actually. "You'll never take me alive, you bastards! Not when toss this fruitcake at you!" Don't joke about that. Fruitcake is a deadly weapon! Fruitcake Small Improvised Weapon, 1d6 + STR Bludgeoning Damage, 20ft. Special- Armor Piercing One treasured holiday tradition is to give a fruitcake to someone. This tradition has never included actually eating the damn thing. Thus, all the fruitcake that was ever made was made in 1910, and some of them have not aged well. This should be especially apparent to the person being hit by the fruitcake. Attacks with a fruitcake ignore two points of hardness. Special- Insulin Shock When used as a melee weapon, one can be made to force someone else to eat the fruitcake. Horrifying, I know. The victim must make a DC 15 Fortitude check or become Fatigued. If the victim fails by 10 or more, they become Nauseated. Whichever way this goes, it only works once.
#14 backstabbist Jan 09, 2009 23:33:23	egad! I cant believe I failed to stat the Fruitcake. Bravo Lanceman, glad one of us was on the ball
#15 beefy_mongoose Jan 11, 2009 19:14:26	i like backstabbists idea but what if you were the persuer? would you just tell the character he made this rediculous wall climb/jump and then have them decide to do it without knowing the actuall DC or just tell them the DC right out? also there needs to be a way to avoid the obstical by making another skill check instead. one thing thats confusing me is if the PC knocks over a fruitcart with fruit all over the place why does the character have to make a jump check even though it doesnt include jumping. what might be a good idea is the PC would have to make str check to knock it over then the npc would have to make a balance or jump check to get past the fruit without falling. to keep with your system, in some cases (GMs disgression) the PC or NPC can choose to make up a DC themselves, for everypoint added or subtracted from the DC then also translates to the save DC by a 1 to 1 ratio. an example, if the strong really puts his weight into the cart adding +7 to knocking it over the fast hero then has to make a check at +7 the normal DC to get past the obstacle. this way a character can use his stats to his advantage more often. if you have a strong hero running from a fast hero the strong hero wouldnt be jumping around, he would be knocking stuff over and creating obstacles for the fast hero. If both the PC and NPC do the same thing then only one DC is needed of course. this may make it a little harder for the DM having to make up two or maybe even three DCs instead of one some of the time but it makes more sence to me. also a good idea is to write out some DC checks for common items, this would speed up gameplay dramatically.
#16 backstabbist Jan 11, 2009 19:53:01	Reasonable considerations all. When it comes to the PCs being the Wolf and having to describe what the Rabbit did... it depends on the campaign story. The GM "FudgeFactor" of helping the Rabbit if the story needs him to get away, or intentionally choosing easier DCs than the rabbit would worry about, is upto the GM. Due to the +mods aspect of the game the PCs dont actually learn that much from hearing the Rabbit made a DC25 jump... maybe the rabbit has +15, maybe its +5. GM discression is required to judge synergies of a Jump / Str / Dex / WeaponFocus PoleVault or whatnot. If we step back and run it fast & coarse, we dont have to worry so much about players trying to 'change the subject' of a JumpDC20 to be a pondering of DemolitionsDC20 somehow so their jumpless Smart wont get killed. As for my plan being rough for the guy in back to catch up, you gotta remember that I am a gun nut and would expect Ranged Weapons to demonstrate why maintaining a chase distance for extended periods is bad. "If it keeps up like this we'll never catch up to him" Guess we just shoot him from behind while he runs
#17 TheRealOrion Jan 11, 2009 20:21:16	The trouble with resolving fights with guns (especially d20) is that it presupposes that what you really want is to kill the "rabbit." If you shoot at him/her, you either have no effect on their ability to run (because they don't reach 0HPs) or you kill them. There's no "shoot to wound and slow them down." So if your goal is to kill the "rabbit," then why chase at all? To me, chasining implies that you have other plans, like interrogation, or you're just not interested in killing, so firearms, logically, won't really come into it all that much. To address the general discussion, I'm thinking more and more than the soul of a chase is designing the environment, not instituting special rules. If you provide nothing but a flat plain: boring chase. If you provide a building site, a busy dance club, a snow-covered street filled with on-lookers, then you have a more interesting chase. It's a lot like movies, in that way.
#18 beefy_mongoose Jan 12, 2009 18:35:45	When moving through a crowd a PC/NPC has to make either a str or dex check, players decision. if the PC/NPC fails the save they are reduced to half speed untill the end of the round. the following tables are to determine the the str/dex DC. Crowd density the following numbers are used to make the base str/dex DC save 1 person per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 5 2 people per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 10 3 people per 10 square feet = str/dex DC 15 1 person per 5 square feet = str/dex DC 20 2 person per 5 square feet = str/dex DC 25 etc... Crowd Speed* the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save Standing = -2 Walking = +0 Jogging = +2 Running = +4 Above full speed = +6 special, look below Crowd Direction the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save With you = -2 45 degrees with = -1* speratically = +0 Perpendicular = +2 45 degrees against = +3 against = +4 *special, look below Special When the crowd is moving with are almost with you crowd speed can be beneficial. if the crowd is moving with or at 45 degrees with you then the crowd speed rules above do not apply. the graph below shows the new modifier values when these cercumstances apply. the following numbers affect the str/dex DC save same speed = -4 (both running) one speed catagorie diffrence = -2 (hero running, crowd double move) two speed catagorie diffrence = +0 (hero running, crowd walking) three speed catagorie diffrence = +2 (hero above full speed, crowd walking) Domino Effect as many would call the domino effect if the crowd has a density of 2 or more people per 5 square feet these rules apply. if the PC or NPC running uses a strength check to get through the crowd and succeeds the role by 5 or more he knocks a person in the crowd over, succeed by ten 2 people. the PC/NPC can choose to take extra care to not knock people over by choosing to increase the DC by there choice. if they fail the original DC there reduced to half speed, if they fail the new DC with there modification they knock people over (as long as if it is still five over) if they succeed the new save then they do not knock people over. When a person falls within the crowd the following happens. The GM has to make a reflex save for the crowd (reflex save of +0), the base DC is 10 but the crowd speed (above) can effect that DC (standing crowds have to make a DC of 5 not 8). if multiple people are knocked over make the roll for each person. When one or more of the rolls fails then the domino effect occurs, place starting area at random place along movement path. on the crowds first turn after failing a reflex save the domono area has a size catagorie of huge, for every round after that the domino area increases in size by one size catagorie (running crowds increase by two catagories a turn). If a PC or NPC goes through the domino effect area he has to make a balance check. size large = 10 size huge = 14 Gargantuan = 18 Colossal = 22 if the PC/NPC fails the check then he is reduced to half speed untill he exits the domino effect area, if he fails by more then 5 he falls prone.
#19 AnimeSniper Jan 12, 2009 18:58:28	Don't joke about that. Fruitcake is a deadly weapon! Fruitcake Small Improvised Weapon, 1d6 + STR Bludgeoning Damage, 20ft. Special- Armor Piercing One treasured holiday tradition is to give a fruitcake to someone. This tradition has never included actually eating the damn thing. Thus, all the fruitcake that was ever made was made in 1910, and some of them have not aged well. This should be especially apparent to the person being hit by the fruitcake. Attacks with a fruitcake ignore two points of hardness. Special- Insulin Shock When used as a melee weapon, one can be made to force someone else to eat the fruitcake. Horrifying, I know. The victim must make a DC 15 Fortitude check or become Fatigued. If the victim fails by 10 or more, they become Nauseated. Whichever way this goes, it only works once. Don't forget the Fruitcakes that have existed since the first production of the unedible holiday cake... Imagine if you will, in a world not much different then our own where technology has given man access to the stars... Now imagine a future war being ended when one side unleashes a five millenium old fruitcake from orbit on their enemies homeworld via a MAC gun... the enemy is now no more since their homeworld is covered in the resulting duststorm...:D
#20 TheRealOrion Jan 13, 2009 0:50:20	When moving through a crowd... Dude, props for the detail, but... too much. I'm looking for a little substance to my chases, not quite that much.
#21 beefy_mongoose Jan 13, 2009 22:53:13	what about a bluff check to make a drop or something seem higher then it really is? lets say a PC is following a NPC and he jumps over a waist high brick wall. he then makes a bluff check to make it seem like he has fallen a larger amount then normal. this would be like him then yelling like he is falling a far distance. if the PC doesnt make the opposed sense motive check you tell him that it appears the NPC has fallen a great distance. then the PC can decide if he wants to go over that wall or stop at it to see what really happened. Also since the guy is out of sight don't move his character on the map past the wall to keep the effect that he really fell and was injured. do know his true position incase the PC do something cafty that make him being there or not vital. if the players say that he has more moves just say that he is out of sight and you do not know his real position, or something along those terms.
#22 TheRealOrion Jan 14, 2009 0:00:14	I'd allow it as a separate role, sure, but I think I'd give a minus to the Jump check, because you're concentrating on something else. Sounds fine to me.