Class-less D20 Modern? A Discussion. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Class-less D20 Modern? A Discussion.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
shinobi_guyver
Jan 03, 2010 6:38:03 So while I was working on a new magic system that would work the way I imagine epic spell battles to be (which is giving me a real headache), I started to think about balancing out some of the ideas I had with the other classes.

Unfortunately I kept getting drawn more and more into the character creation system used in Anima: Beyond Fantasy (which is a headache by itself) instead of D20 Modern.

My question is this: Are classes such an integral part of the D20 System that it is supremely difficult, if not impossible, to completely do away with them?

When I'm done, I want there to be obvious benefits to following completely through with just one "archetype," but I also would like it to be easy to pick and choose abilities from a list and have a character that is just as effective, and vice versa.

Maybe this has already been done and I rolled low on my Google-Fu check, I don't know, but if it has, could someone point me in the right direction?
#2
TheRealOrion
Jan 03, 2010 12:22:13 I don't have anything classless, but I do have a "build your own class" system in Phoenix (see my sig). You simply buy class features with Character Points. In Phoenix, it's potentially integrated into the whole character-creation system so that if you build yourself a monster class ("good" or "excellent" in everything), then you have relatively few points to spend on attributes or other in-game abilities. That might or might not integrate into what you're envisioning, but it might point you in some interesting directions, anyway.
#3
Ragitsu
Jan 03, 2010 13:31:26 It wouldn't be d20 Modern anymore. Besides, there are already other systems that handle point-buy very well.
#4
TheRealOrion
Jan 03, 2010 13:54:10 I agree. It wouldn't be d20M anymore. But it might be something else that's still fun.
#5
Ragitsu
Jan 03, 2010 14:56:16
It wouldn't be d20M anymore. But it might be something else that's still fun.

Using a name solely to get customer recognition is a no-no. Capcom did this with "Resident Evil" 5 and it upset many people.
#6
TheRealOrion
Jan 03, 2010 16:24:45 Then it's awfully convenient that I suggested no such thing, isn't it?
#7
Ragitsu
Jan 03, 2010 16:45:59 Why is there talk at all of changing d20 Modern? A new system is fine, as long as it does not share the same title or try to present itself as the same as it's predecessor. Better to end on a high note (or higher note) than exploting the name.
#8
TheRealOrion
Jan 03, 2010 17:28:19 Because some people like certain parts of the game but still want to tinker with it...?

There's a lot of different variations possible within these basic rules, and there might be people who like them or games (genre, universes, etc.) where those variations make sense and work well. I introduced a mess 'o changes for Phoenix because d20M is built for contemporary action movies, but I want a system that simulates superhero comics.
#9
buzzxf
Jan 04, 2010 2:52:54 If I were to mod the game in such a way to remove classes, I would start with a list of what must be done, and what do you know here it is.

Skills: All characters have a list of class skills in the beginning. Each should be justified in some aspect of the characters life or back story. Every two levels they add another skill to this list.

Defenses: Each level a character chooses a primary and secondary defense: Ref, Fort, Will. These will rise in a formulaic way.

Feats: This is a bit trickier. I suppose bonus feats could be brought to the gm for allowance.

Talents: Give everybody access to all basic talent trees, but I would add ability score requirements for some of them, or you could only allow one talent in each tree for each modifier in a certain ability score important to the tree.

Prestige Classes: Series of specilised talents that require a level, and ranks in certain skills.

Attack and Defense Bonus: Each level you gain a +3/4 bonus in one and a +1 bonus in the other.

Thats my two whatever. Well I think I covered the important stuff. Adios for now.
#10
shinobi_guyver
Jan 04, 2010 5:13:47 There's something else bugging me, too. The name "D20 Modern." It's a very generic sounding name that could be used for just about any d20-based game that doesn't focus on fantasy/high-fantasy. Somehow, it's become synonymous with Wizards of the Cost. I don't plan on using just "D20 Modern" in the title, either. The majority of the game will remain the same, just character creation and magic will be handled differently.

Skills will be determined on your background the talent(s) you choose will either add skills or bonuses to skills (like they do now).

Part of my ideas involve making magic and psionics essentially the same thing, just different names/methods of execution (if you've played Star Ocean 3: Till the End of Time, think "Symbology" vs. "Runology").

There is also just one "magic" class, and the only thing separating a mage from a cleric or psychic is the feats, skills, and talents chosen. When you first take the class, you choose a talent for either arcane magic, divine magic, or psionics. Further talents in the chain increase your abilities in that one area, while feats can augment the talents. Spells will be cast using a modified version Spell Point Variant from the Hypertext D20 SRD.
#11
TheRealOrion
Jan 04, 2010 13:51:33
If I were to mod the game in such a way to remove classes, I would start with a list of what must be done, and what do you know here it is.

Skills: All characters have a list of class skills in the beginning. Each should be justified in some aspect of the characters life or back story. Every two levels they add another skill to this list.

Defenses: Each level a character chooses a primary and secondary defense: Ref, Fort, Will. These will rise in a formulaic way.

Feats: This is a bit trickier. I suppose bonus feats could be brought to the gm for allowance.

Talents: Give everybody access to all basic talent trees, but I would add ability score requirements for some of them, or you could only allow one talent in each tree for each modifier in a certain ability score important to the tree.

Prestige Classes: Series of specilised talents that require a level, and ranks in certain skills.

Attack and Defense Bonus: Each level you gain a +3/4 bonus in one and a +1 bonus in the other.

Thats my two whatever. Well I think I covered the important stuff. Adios for now.

This actually looks quite promising, although you've written it for Saga, not Modern, but a lot of that will translate.

There would have to be a specific number of skills that you start with or some way of balancing skills against feats so that you could build a Skill Monkey instead of a Feat Monster. In a d20 game, you probably wouldn't add more skills because you'd have Class and Cross-Class, but that's a minor tweak.

For Defence, Saves, and Base Attack, I like the idea of having a certain number of "good," "medium," and "poor" progressions to spread around. Say, two "good," one "medium," and two "poor"? Again, though, it'd be nice if there were a way to play these off of other things so that you could take all "poor" in exchange for more feats, or something like that.

Feats could be handled pretty easily: one every second level, just like standard d20M classes, but class features would be tougher. Everybody gets all kinds of unique stuff in Modern, and I'd hate to lose that. Perhaps they could be converted to talents in some way?

Acces to Talents by ability scores. Perfect. Self-limiting. You choose to have a high Strength, you have much more easy access to Strong Talents. Instead of making access to the whole Talent Tree based on a minimum score, though, you could gives levels of the Tree minimum scores, like the rising prerequisites on some Feat Trees: first Talent is 15, second is 19, third is 23 (something like that). That way, you could also control the Talents by level.

Neat ideas! I'd love to see someone run with them.
#12
bone_naga
Jan 05, 2010 20:31:58 I tried to do a classless D&D (for 3e, 4e would be much easier to do). I didn't succeed in making it totally classless, but I did break it down into 3 classes (ironically the same 3 generic classes that showed up in Unearthed Arcana). Basically most the abilities were simply broken up into feats. Each class (or all characters if you went classless) would get some extra feats to make up for those missing class abilities. d20 CoC almost was classless, but not quite. I think it would be might be doable for d20 modern, but I don't have any of the books available to reference right now and give you better suggestions.
#13
shinobi_guyver
Jan 06, 2010 12:03:11
I tried to do a classless D&D (for 3e, 4e would be much easier to do). I didn't succeed in making it totally classless, but I did break it down into 3 classes (ironically the same 3 generic classes that showed up in Unearthed Arcana). Basically most the abilities were simply broken up into feats. Each class (or all characters if you went classless) would get some extra feats to make up for those missing class abilities. d20 CoC almost was classless, but not quite. I think it would be might be doable for d20 modern, but I don't have any of the books available to reference right now and give you better suggestions.

This is close to one of the things I thought up before I began thinking of going completely classless (as a matter of fact, this idea lead to this thread). You had 3 archetypes, one for "magic," one for "physical," and one for "other." Based on the background, feats, and talents chosen, you'd have all your usual classes, everything inbetween, and anything else you could think of.

I'll take a look at Unearthed Arcana, if I can find it.
#14
bone_naga
Jan 06, 2010 19:41:50 True20 (by Green Ronin) also did a similar deal with the 3 generic classes. I liked it a lot, but then 4e came out and I switched over. I believe True20 did a modern supplement, but I haven't looked at it so I don't know what they did with the classes.
#15
narukagami
Jan 07, 2010 18:54:39 I wrote up a classless and leveless system for d20 a long time ago, where you spend XP directly to gain skillpoints, HP, feats, ect.

It sucked. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shinobi_guyver Jan 03, 2010 6:38:03	So while I was working on a new magic system that would work the way I imagine epic spell battles to be (which is giving me a real headache), I started to think about balancing out some of the ideas I had with the other classes. Unfortunately I kept getting drawn more and more into the character creation system used in Anima: Beyond Fantasy (which is a headache by itself) instead of D20 Modern. My question is this: Are classes such an integral part of the D20 System that it is supremely difficult, if not impossible, to completely do away with them? When I'm done, I want there to be obvious benefits to following completely through with just one "archetype," but I also would like it to be easy to pick and choose abilities from a list and have a character that is just as effective, and vice versa. Maybe this has already been done and I rolled low on my Google-Fu check, I don't know, but if it has, could someone point me in the right direction?
#2 TheRealOrion Jan 03, 2010 12:22:13	I don't have anything classless, but I do have a "build your own class" system in Phoenix (see my sig). You simply buy class features with Character Points. In Phoenix, it's potentially integrated into the whole character-creation system so that if you build yourself a monster class ("good" or "excellent" in everything), then you have relatively few points to spend on attributes or other in-game abilities. That might or might not integrate into what you're envisioning, but it might point you in some interesting directions, anyway.
#3 Ragitsu Jan 03, 2010 13:31:26	It wouldn't be d20 Modern anymore. Besides, there are already other systems that handle point-buy very well.
#4 TheRealOrion Jan 03, 2010 13:54:10	I agree. It wouldn't be d20M anymore. But it might be something else that's still fun.
#5 Ragitsu Jan 03, 2010 14:56:16	It wouldn't be d20M anymore. But it might be something else that's still fun. Using a name solely to get customer recognition is a no-no. Capcom did this with "Resident Evil" 5 and it upset many people.
#6 TheRealOrion Jan 03, 2010 16:24:45	Then it's awfully convenient that I suggested no such thing, isn't it?
#7 Ragitsu Jan 03, 2010 16:45:59	Why is there talk at all of changing d20 Modern? A new system is fine, as long as it does not share the same title or try to present itself as the same as it's predecessor. Better to end on a high note (or higher note) than exploting the name.
#8 TheRealOrion Jan 03, 2010 17:28:19	Because some people like certain parts of the game but still want to tinker with it...? There's a lot of different variations possible within these basic rules, and there might be people who like them or games (genre, universes, etc.) where those variations make sense and work well. I introduced a mess 'o changes for Phoenix because d20M is built for contemporary action movies, but I want a system that simulates superhero comics.
#9 buzzxf Jan 04, 2010 2:52:54	If I were to mod the game in such a way to remove classes, I would start with a list of what must be done, and what do you know here it is. Skills: All characters have a list of class skills in the beginning. Each should be justified in some aspect of the characters life or back story. Every two levels they add another skill to this list. Defenses: Each level a character chooses a primary and secondary defense: Ref, Fort, Will. These will rise in a formulaic way. Feats: This is a bit trickier. I suppose bonus feats could be brought to the gm for allowance. Talents: Give everybody access to all basic talent trees, but I would add ability score requirements for some of them, or you could only allow one talent in each tree for each modifier in a certain ability score important to the tree. Prestige Classes: Series of specilised talents that require a level, and ranks in certain skills. Attack and Defense Bonus: Each level you gain a +3/4 bonus in one and a +1 bonus in the other. Thats my two whatever. Well I think I covered the important stuff. Adios for now.
#10 shinobi_guyver Jan 04, 2010 5:13:47	There's something else bugging me, too. The name "D20 Modern." It's a very generic sounding name that could be used for just about any d20-based game that doesn't focus on fantasy/high-fantasy. Somehow, it's become synonymous with Wizards of the Cost. I don't plan on using just "D20 Modern" in the title, either. The majority of the game will remain the same, just character creation and magic will be handled differently. Skills will be determined on your background the talent(s) you choose will either add skills or bonuses to skills (like they do now). Part of my ideas involve making magic and psionics essentially the same thing, just different names/methods of execution (if you've played Star Ocean 3: Till the End of Time, think "Symbology" vs. "Runology"). There is also just one "magic" class, and the only thing separating a mage from a cleric or psychic is the feats, skills, and talents chosen. When you first take the class, you choose a talent for either arcane magic, divine magic, or psionics. Further talents in the chain increase your abilities in that one area, while feats can augment the talents. Spells will be cast using a modified version Spell Point Variant from the Hypertext D20 SRD.
#11 TheRealOrion Jan 04, 2010 13:51:33	If I were to mod the game in such a way to remove classes, I would start with a list of what must be done, and what do you know here it is. Skills: All characters have a list of class skills in the beginning. Each should be justified in some aspect of the characters life or back story. Every two levels they add another skill to this list. Defenses: Each level a character chooses a primary and secondary defense: Ref, Fort, Will. These will rise in a formulaic way. Feats: This is a bit trickier. I suppose bonus feats could be brought to the gm for allowance. Talents: Give everybody access to all basic talent trees, but I would add ability score requirements for some of them, or you could only allow one talent in each tree for each modifier in a certain ability score important to the tree. Prestige Classes: Series of specilised talents that require a level, and ranks in certain skills. Attack and Defense Bonus: Each level you gain a +3/4 bonus in one and a +1 bonus in the other. Thats my two whatever. Well I think I covered the important stuff. Adios for now. This actually looks quite promising, although you've written it for Saga, not Modern, but a lot of that will translate. There would have to be a specific number of skills that you start with or some way of balancing skills against feats so that you could build a Skill Monkey instead of a Feat Monster. In a d20 game, you probably wouldn't add more skills because you'd have Class and Cross-Class, but that's a minor tweak. For Defence, Saves, and Base Attack, I like the idea of having a certain number of "good," "medium," and "poor" progressions to spread around. Say, two "good," one "medium," and two "poor"? Again, though, it'd be nice if there were a way to play these off of other things so that you could take all "poor" in exchange for more feats, or something like that. Feats could be handled pretty easily: one every second level, just like standard d20M classes, but class features would be tougher. Everybody gets all kinds of unique stuff in Modern, and I'd hate to lose that. Perhaps they could be converted to talents in some way? Acces to Talents by ability scores. Perfect. Self-limiting. You choose to have a high Strength, you have much more easy access to Strong Talents. Instead of making access to the whole Talent Tree based on a minimum score, though, you could gives levels of the Tree minimum scores, like the rising prerequisites on some Feat Trees: first Talent is 15, second is 19, third is 23 (something like that). That way, you could also control the Talents by level. Neat ideas! I'd love to see someone run with them.
#12 bone_naga Jan 05, 2010 20:31:58	I tried to do a classless D&D (for 3e, 4e would be much easier to do). I didn't succeed in making it totally classless, but I did break it down into 3 classes (ironically the same 3 generic classes that showed up in Unearthed Arcana). Basically most the abilities were simply broken up into feats. Each class (or all characters if you went classless) would get some extra feats to make up for those missing class abilities. d20 CoC almost was classless, but not quite. I think it would be might be doable for d20 modern, but I don't have any of the books available to reference right now and give you better suggestions.
#13 shinobi_guyver Jan 06, 2010 12:03:11	I tried to do a classless D&D (for 3e, 4e would be much easier to do). I didn't succeed in making it totally classless, but I did break it down into 3 classes (ironically the same 3 generic classes that showed up in Unearthed Arcana). Basically most the abilities were simply broken up into feats. Each class (or all characters if you went classless) would get some extra feats to make up for those missing class abilities. d20 CoC almost was classless, but not quite. I think it would be might be doable for d20 modern, but I don't have any of the books available to reference right now and give you better suggestions. This is close to one of the things I thought up before I began thinking of going completely classless (as a matter of fact, this idea lead to this thread). You had 3 archetypes, one for "magic," one for "physical," and one for "other." Based on the background, feats, and talents chosen, you'd have all your usual classes, everything inbetween, and anything else you could think of. I'll take a look at Unearthed Arcana, if I can find it.
#14 bone_naga Jan 06, 2010 19:41:50	True20 (by Green Ronin) also did a similar deal with the 3 generic classes. I liked it a lot, but then 4e came out and I switched over. I believe True20 did a modern supplement, but I haven't looked at it so I don't know what they did with the classes.
#15 narukagami Jan 07, 2010 18:54:39	I wrote up a classless and leveless system for d20 a long time ago, where you spend XP directly to gain skillpoints, HP, feats, ect. It sucked. :P