Combat Facing? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Combat Facing?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tema69
Jun 11, 2008 16:19:54 Does anyone have any experience with combat facing in their game?

An example of combat facing from D&D can be found here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm
#2
brokenoakleys
Jun 11, 2008 18:16:21 There was once a devout Quaker quietly having a simple meal in a tavern when a drunken bully decided to have some fun.

The bully, hearing that Quakers were non-violent, went up and smacked the Quaker across the right cheek.

The Quaker said: 'The Lord commendeth that when hit, thou must turn the other cheek.".

The Quaker then turned his left cheek towards the bully, who proceeded to smack that cheek as well.

The Quaker then rose up, towered over the bully, pulled out his brass knuckles and said: "Now that the Lord's commandment has been fulfilleth, I shall proceed to beat the living %#$#$% out of thee!!!"
#3
tema69
Jun 12, 2008 5:12:24 So combat facing isn't good?
What's your point, brokenoakleys?
#4
nadaka
Jun 12, 2008 8:22:32 A combat round is 6 seconds. That is a very, very long time when it comes to combat. In that 6 seconds you have plenty of time to move about and turn in any direction. So facing does not make a lot of sense for personal combat.

However, for vehicles, its a little different. And that is why vehicles in d20 modern do have facing.
#5
tema69
Jun 12, 2008 11:19:42 How do you back up the 6sec is a long time? Do you have any experience with 'combat'? I don't want to sound obnoxious, but I've fenced quite a bit, both in escrime avec fleuret but also with medieval weapons such as swords, axes and knives. I think the 3.5 sec to attack is quite fair, as either melee weapons are quite heavy, thus attacking and recovering with them is somewhat slow, and knives/rapiers/fleurets need more precision to be effective. From my limited experience with firearms, I'd say acquiring a target, aiming, and firing in a combat environment could take 1 sec each, thus 3 sec for a standard action.

From my gaming experience, I've just had complaints from my players when they attacked from behind, or snook up behind someone, only to get no rewards/bonuses at all for displaying tactical knowledge of movement. I'm not saying you should slavicly adhere to any rules, especially not optional ones, but from my point of view, some sort of "where-you're-looking-at" rule is necessary, especially when going stealthyninjainfiltration.
#6
brokenoakleys
Jun 12, 2008 19:41:59 My point? Be careful when attacking Quaker NPC's, especially those that have the 'beat the $#***** out of thee after turning their cheek' feat!! :D

As for facing, I think it just adds one more layer of complexity. Factoring sneaking up from behind is taken care of with the flat-footed rule. At least the way I interpret it, if the opponent isn't aware of the attacker, they get no dex bonus. Getting behind someone is factored in with the flanking rule.

One thing to consider is 'real' combat is not turn based, as we do in the game, but everyone acting at the same time. A sparring partner is not going to wait to turn and face you simply because it isn't 'his' turn (unless he doesn't see you).

As for aiming and firing in three seconds: three seconds IS plenty of time if you: 1) don't have to draw your weapon; 2) Don't move first (which disrupts stance and aim) and 3) aren't shooting at a moving target shooting back at you.

If you wanted to institute facing, I'd also consider what impact it would have on movement: would I lose any movement for turning around?
#7
rosakaftor
Jun 13, 2008 3:31:59 i don't do fencing or swordplay, but i do take part in milsim airsofting. 6 seconds can be a blink of an eye, or it can be a lifetime. it all depends on the situation. using an automatic weapon, i acquired 4 separate targets and dispatched them each with a 2-3 round burst to the torso or head in 6 seconds. as such, six seconds is a long time. i also got ambushed by a buddy with a grenade, 5 second fuse. even though death wasn't a possibility, my mind raced and my body froze, leaving me caught with my trousers down. thus, six seconds is a short time.

what i do know is that even wielding an assault rifle in the proper tactical style, i can check and fire upon a 360 degree area in 6 seconds. facing has a limited point in d20, but it's one more thing that's unnecessary and frivolous.
#8
tema69
Jun 13, 2008 5:13:44 I guess facing is more based on melee combat; I can perfectly understand that it's quite easy to spin around with a firearm without losing your aim. I don't think facing is unnecessarily complicated. A character just needs to say that he's aware and looks around, instead of standing normally and looking forward. That also means that a character needs to say which enemy he faces in melee combat, or if he stands with them on each side, or whatever. I think it's more fluff than crunch if used correctly.

@ RoSakaftor: in game, that'd represent a high BAB[, low recoil from the airsoft - if you're using recoil rules], but a low Reflex save/roll.

I'm inclined to not use the rules for ranged weapons (so a character can freely spin around), due to the ease of use of a firearm (where stance isn't as great a factor as for melee) compared to a longsword, where your stance needs to be balanced to impart the right amount of force.

Oh, and movement is already factored in the rules.
#9
nadaka
Jul 22, 2008 14:58:30
I guess facing is more based on melee combat; I can perfectly understand that it's quite easy to spin around with a firearm without losing your aim. I don't think facing is unnecessarily complicated. A character just needs to say that he's aware and looks around, instead of standing normally and looking forward. That also means that a character needs to say which enemy he faces in melee combat, or if he stands with them on each side, or whatever. I think it's more fluff than crunch if used correctly.

@ RoSakaftor: in game, that'd represent a high BAB[, low recoil from the airsoft - if you're using recoil rules], but a low Reflex save/roll.

I'm inclined to not use the rules for ranged weapons (so a character can freely spin around), due to the ease of use of a firearm (where stance isn't as great a factor as for melee) compared to a longsword, where your stance needs to be balanced to impart the right amount of force.

Oh, and movement is already factored in the rules.

Who told you that stance isn't important for firearms? Stance is very important for a shooter to provide stability.
#10
tema69
Jul 22, 2008 15:01:27 Please re-read my post, and tell me if I wrote that stance wasn't important for the use of firearms.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tema69 Jun 11, 2008 16:19:54	Does anyone have any experience with combat facing in their game? An example of combat facing from D&D can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm
#2 brokenoakleys Jun 11, 2008 18:16:21	There was once a devout Quaker quietly having a simple meal in a tavern when a drunken bully decided to have some fun. The bully, hearing that Quakers were non-violent, went up and smacked the Quaker across the right cheek. The Quaker said: 'The Lord commendeth that when hit, thou must turn the other cheek.". The Quaker then turned his left cheek towards the bully, who proceeded to smack that cheek as well. The Quaker then rose up, towered over the bully, pulled out his brass knuckles and said: "Now that the Lord's commandment has been fulfilleth, I shall proceed to beat the living %#$#$% out of thee!!!"
#3 tema69 Jun 12, 2008 5:12:24	So combat facing isn't good? What's your point, brokenoakleys?
#4 nadaka Jun 12, 2008 8:22:32	A combat round is 6 seconds. That is a very, very long time when it comes to combat. In that 6 seconds you have plenty of time to move about and turn in any direction. So facing does not make a lot of sense for personal combat. However, for vehicles, its a little different. And that is why vehicles in d20 modern do have facing.
#5 tema69 Jun 12, 2008 11:19:42	How do you back up the 6sec is a long time? Do you have any experience with 'combat'? I don't want to sound obnoxious, but I've fenced quite a bit, both in escrime avec fleuret but also with medieval weapons such as swords, axes and knives. I think the 3.5 sec to attack is quite fair, as either melee weapons are quite heavy, thus attacking and recovering with them is somewhat slow, and knives/rapiers/fleurets need more precision to be effective. From my limited experience with firearms, I'd say acquiring a target, aiming, and firing in a combat environment could take 1 sec each, thus 3 sec for a standard action. From my gaming experience, I've just had complaints from my players when they attacked from behind, or snook up behind someone, only to get no rewards/bonuses at all for displaying tactical knowledge of movement. I'm not saying you should slavicly adhere to any rules, especially not optional ones, but from my point of view, some sort of "where-you're-looking-at" rule is necessary, especially when going stealthyninjainfiltration.
#6 brokenoakleys Jun 12, 2008 19:41:59	My point? Be careful when attacking Quaker NPC's, especially those that have the 'beat the $#***** out of thee after turning their cheek' feat!! :D As for facing, I think it just adds one more layer of complexity. Factoring sneaking up from behind is taken care of with the flat-footed rule. At least the way I interpret it, if the opponent isn't aware of the attacker, they get no dex bonus. Getting behind someone is factored in with the flanking rule. One thing to consider is 'real' combat is not turn based, as we do in the game, but everyone acting at the same time. A sparring partner is not going to wait to turn and face you simply because it isn't 'his' turn (unless he doesn't see you). As for aiming and firing in three seconds: three seconds IS plenty of time if you: 1) don't have to draw your weapon; 2) Don't move first (which disrupts stance and aim) and 3) aren't shooting at a moving target shooting back at you. If you wanted to institute facing, I'd also consider what impact it would have on movement: would I lose any movement for turning around?
#7 rosakaftor Jun 13, 2008 3:31:59	i don't do fencing or swordplay, but i do take part in milsim airsofting. 6 seconds can be a blink of an eye, or it can be a lifetime. it all depends on the situation. using an automatic weapon, i acquired 4 separate targets and dispatched them each with a 2-3 round burst to the torso or head in 6 seconds. as such, six seconds is a long time. i also got ambushed by a buddy with a grenade, 5 second fuse. even though death wasn't a possibility, my mind raced and my body froze, leaving me caught with my trousers down. thus, six seconds is a short time. what i do know is that even wielding an assault rifle in the proper tactical style, i can check and fire upon a 360 degree area in 6 seconds. facing has a limited point in d20, but it's one more thing that's unnecessary and frivolous.
#8 tema69 Jun 13, 2008 5:13:44	I guess facing is more based on melee combat; I can perfectly understand that it's quite easy to spin around with a firearm without losing your aim. I don't think facing is unnecessarily complicated. A character just needs to say that he's aware and looks around, instead of standing normally and looking forward. That also means that a character needs to say which enemy he faces in melee combat, or if he stands with them on each side, or whatever. I think it's more fluff than crunch if used correctly. @ RoSakaftor: in game, that'd represent a high BAB[, low recoil from the airsoft - if you're using recoil rules], but a low Reflex save/roll. I'm inclined to not use the rules for ranged weapons (so a character can freely spin around), due to the ease of use of a firearm (where stance isn't as great a factor as for melee) compared to a longsword, where your stance needs to be balanced to impart the right amount of force. Oh, and movement is already factored in the rules.
#9 nadaka Jul 22, 2008 14:58:30	I guess facing is more based on melee combat; I can perfectly understand that it's quite easy to spin around with a firearm without losing your aim. I don't think facing is unnecessarily complicated. A character just needs to say that he's aware and looks around, instead of standing normally and looking forward. That also means that a character needs to say which enemy he faces in melee combat, or if he stands with them on each side, or whatever. I think it's more fluff than crunch if used correctly. @ RoSakaftor: in game, that'd represent a high BAB[, low recoil from the airsoft - if you're using recoil rules], but a low Reflex save/roll. I'm inclined to not use the rules for ranged weapons (so a character can freely spin around), due to the ease of use of a firearm (where stance isn't as great a factor as for melee) compared to a longsword, where your stance needs to be balanced to impart the right amount of force. Oh, and movement is already factored in the rules. Who told you that stance isn't important for firearms? Stance is very important for a shooter to provide stability.
#10 tema69 Jul 22, 2008 15:01:27	Please re-read my post, and tell me if I wrote that stance wasn't important for the use of firearms.