So far I have:
Classes/advanced classes
Feats/talents
Saving Throws/Defenses
Healing
Condition Track
Skills (easy)
Anyway those are the biggest things I see so far.
Has anyone put any thought in to this?
My thoughts are that i could easily just use SAGA with not convertions (blasters=guns) and the only thing I would need to do is convert the force in to some kind of magic/cybernetic thing (I plan on having a supernatural aspect to the game) and tweak force classes a bit. Am I deluding myself that it will be this easy?
If this is the case then you can probably get away with as little as taking out the Force (including Jedi) and cook up a brand new equipment list.
You may find the classes a bit dissatisfactory, but for the role of Heroes in a modern world they should work OK.
-DF
I see that there is a big bruhaha about converting Modern to 4e... Snip...
...My thoughts are that i could easily just use SAGA with not convertions (blasters=guns) and the only thing I would need to do is convert the force in to some kind of magic/cybernetic thing (I plan on having a supernatural aspect to the game) and tweak force classes a bit. Am I deluding myself that it will be this easy?
It actually CAN be as simple as that... and for a non fx game, you can simply ban the Force Sensitivity feat and that will eliminate the Force (aka "Magic") from the game.
I think the only real trick would be converting Urban Arcana Races to Saga Edition, but if you REALLY want fantasy characters in your modern world, I'd suggest using the races from 4E, or re-flavor texting the races from the Saga rules.
Modifying The Saga Rules for The Land of Nod
Obviously, all the flavor text and cultural descriptions present in the Star Wars books does not apply to this setting. However, most of the rules in the Star Wars Saga rule books do. When playing the Land of Nod, make the following changes to the Star Wars Saga character scale rules in order to reflect the tone and flavor of this campaign setting.
Chapter 3: Heroic Classes
• You add ¾ your heroic level as a bonus to your Reflex Defense, not your heroic level. All other Defenses are calculated as per normal Saga rules.
• The Jedi class should be removed from the game.
• The Armored Defense talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree grants a character a +1 bonus to Reflex Defense if the character is wearing armor they are proficient with.
• The Improved Armored Defense talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree allows a character to add ½ their armor’s DR (rounded down) as a bonus to their Fortitude Defense when fighting defensively. If you choose to make no attacks when fighting defensively you may add ½ your armor’s DR as a bonus to both your Reflex and Fortitude Defense. This is in addition to the +2 or +5 to reflex defense normally granted. You must be proficient with the armor you are wearing to gain this benefit.
• The Second Skin talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree grants you a +1 bonus to your DR and Fortitude Defense when wearing armor. You must be proficient with the armor you are wearing to gain this benefit.
• Note: In other sections of this campaign setting a new base class can be found. This new base class is called the Cherub.
Chapter 4: Skills
• Use the Force should be renamed Use the Mind.
• A character does not automatically gain 1/2 their level as a bonus to all their skill checks. Rather, a character gets 1/2 their level as a bonus to all their class skill checks. If a skill does not appear on the class skill list of any of a character's classes then that character only adds the relevant ability modifier to that skill's skill checks.
Chapter 5: Feats
• The Armor Proficiency feats remove the Armor Check penalty from attack rolls only. Penalties to Reflex Defense (see the changes to Chapter 8: Equipment bellow) and skills remain.
• Cybernetic Weapons should be added as a group of weapons with which one can gain proficiency through the Weapon Proficiency feat.
• The following feats should be added to the game:
Cybertaker
You can have more cybernetic attachments than normal without suffering ill effects.
Benefit: The maximum number of cybernetic attachments you can have without gaining a persistent condition increases by 1 (see added Cybernetic Rules bellow). This additional cybernetic device cannot be placed in an area if it exceeds that area’s normal limit.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
Implant Awareness
You are very alert to the location and positioning of your external implants and move in a way to keep them guarded from attack.
Benefit: Your external implants gain a +5 bonus to Defense against any attacks made against them.
Chapter 6: The Force
• Force users are called psychics, and any use of the word "force" can be replaced with the word "psychic."
• Psychic Powers never have a “Dark Side” or “Light Side” descriptor. However, powers with the “Dark Side” or “Light Side” descriptor should be given the “Taxing” descriptor. Whenever a taxing power is used the character that used it moves 1 step down the condition track if they succeed on their Use the Mind skill check to use that power, and 2 steps down the condition track if they fail on their Use the Mind skill check to use that power. Any psychic can learn to use any psychic power.
• If you roll higher than a target’s Damage Threshold with a Psychic Grip (or Force Grip), the target may only make a single Move action, not a single Swift action.
• Sever Psychic (or Sever Force) effects all psychics.
• The Dark Side Talent Tree should be removed from the game.
Chapter 8: Equipment
• Armor does not work the same way it does in Star Wars Saga. Armor does not grant a bonus to Reflex Defense. Instead, armor grants damage reduction equal to what it would normally grant as a bonus to Reflex Defense.
• The following slight changes should be made to the pistol, rifle, and retractable stock rules:
o Any weapon treated as a pistol for the purposes of proficiency and range gains a +1 bonus to hit if it is used two handed.
o Any weapon treated as a rifle for the purpose of proficiency and range forces a character to take a -5 penalty on attack rolls with the weapon if they use it in one hand (regardless of its size relative to you).
o If a weapon that is classified as a “carbine” has a retractable stock it uses the standard rules from page 125 of the Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook, though it also looses its inaccurate weapon property while the stock is retracted (and the weapon is being treated like a pistol).
o If any other rifle has a retractable stock it is not treated as a pistol for the purposes of proficiency and range when its stock is retracted. Instead, the rifle becomes classified as a “carbine” when its stock is retracted. As a “carbine” the weapon threatens all adjacent squares, and is treated as having the inaccurate weapon property. The weapon is still classified as a rifle for the purpose of proficiency and range, and any character attempting to use the weapon one handed still suffers a -5 to hit (regardless of its size relative to you).
o No weapon can be braced with a retracted stock.
• The following rules for Cybernetics (inspired by d20 Cyberscape) should be added to the game:
o A character can have a maximum number of cybernetic prosthetics equal to his Constitution modifier +1 (to a minimum of 0).
o If a character installs more cybernetics than this maximum total, he moves -1 step down the condition track, and suffers a persistent condition penalty that lasts until enough cybernetic implants are removed to place him bellow this maximum total.
o A character has 1 head slot, and 2 slots each for the torso, left arm, right arm, left leg, and right leg.
o A character can stuff one extra slot worth of cybernetics into any of the above locations, but doing so has the exact same effect as exceeding your maximum total number of implants.
o Each implant a character has should also reduce the amount of Psychic Points (or Force Points) gained from a level by -1, to a maximum of -5.
Chapter 9: Combat
• When you fight defensively from cover you gain a +5 to Reflex Defense instead of a +2, or a +10 to Reflex Defense if you make no attacks. This is in addition to the normal Reflex Defense bonuses from cover. This does not stack with the similar benefit from being trained in Acrobatics.
• When you use the Aim action you ignore all cover bonuses to your target’s Reflex Defense on your next attack, or half the cover bonuses to your target's Reflex Defense on your next attack if the target has improved cover.
• When attacking with a ranged weapon with which you do not threaten squares you are considered to be distracted, and thus potentially provoke attacks of opportunity.
• When using a ranged weapon against an adjacent target you are considered to be “shooting or firing into a melee,” and suffer all the appropriate penalties.
• Characters in the Land of Nod do not have as high of a natural damage threshold as standard Saga characters. They are forced to partly rely on their armor’s damage reduction to protect them from the effects of damage. As a result, the formula used to calculate a character’s damage threshold should be modified to read as follows:
Damage threshold = (Fortitude Defense – heroic level damage threshold adjustment) + size modifier
Heroic level damage threshold adjustment: The heroic level damage threshold adjustment is subtracted from a character’s Fortitude Defense, when calculating a character's damage threshold, in order to represent the fact that heroic characters do not get as much of a bonus to their damage threshold from level as standard Saga characters. The size of the adjustment depends on the number of total heroic levels a character has. This adjustment is -1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, -2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, -3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, -4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and -5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.
• Add the following ability to a characters list of attack options:
Sustained fire: By spending two swift actions you may continue to use autofire on a targeted area until the start of your next turn. Any creature moving into this area is subject to your autofire attack as if they were in the area when you made the attack. This ability consumes 10 shots in addition to the 10 shots normally consumed by using autofire on an area. You must have 10 additional shots to utilize sustained fire.
Chapter 12: Prestige Classes
• The Jedi Knight, Jedi Master, Sith Apprentice, and Sith Lord prestige classes should be removed from the game
• Note: In other sections of this campaign setting a number of new prestige classes can be found. These new prestige classes are the Praetorian Elite, Cybernetic Commando, Cherub Knight, Seraph Warlord, and Cybernaught.
Oh, no. I'm not stepping into this. I'd like to contribute, but i've learned my lesson from the firestorm created by the 4e conversion talk.
But I will say good-luck from those of us at the modern system conversion bunker.
Anyways if your're considering converting the MSRD to Saga instead of just using Saga to run modern style games, a few things may be a bit tricky. The one that sticks out the most to me is number of trained skills, especially if you are going to use the condensed Saga skill list, I'm fairly sure Skill points per level wouldn't be directly equal to trained skills in that case.
Defenses shouldn't be too hard. just look at what saves they have that are bad/medium/good, and give them the bad/medum/good bonuses that are used in saga.
ShowCheck out the Land of Nod in my signature. It is a "d20 Modern," or rather a "d20 Future" setting build using the Saga rules. There are some house rules that I created in that thread (linked from the very first post) for making the Saga game a little more gritty/Modern. The Saga rules really do work very well, almost right out of the box, for creating a Modern game. To summarize, these are the house rules I used to make Saga a little more Modern.
Modifying The Saga Rules for The Land of Nod
Obviously, all the flavor text and cultural descriptions present in the Star Wars books does not apply to this setting. However, most of the rules in the Star Wars Saga rule books do. When playing the Land of Nod, make the following changes to the Star Wars Saga character scale rules in order to reflect the tone and flavor of this campaign setting.
Chapter 3: Heroic Classes
• You add ¾ your heroic level as a bonus to your Reflex Defense, not your heroic level. All other Defenses are calculated as per normal Saga rules.
• The Jedi class should be removed from the game.
• The Armored Defense talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree grants a character a +1 bonus to Reflex Defense if the character is wearing armor they are proficient with.
• The Improved Armored Defense talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree allows a character to add ½ their armor’s DR (rounded down) as a bonus to their Fortitude Defense when fighting defensively. If you choose to make no attacks when fighting defensively you may add ½ your armor’s DR as a bonus to both your Reflex and Fortitude Defense. This is in addition to the +2 or +5 to reflex defense normally granted. You must be proficient with the armor you are wearing to gain this benefit.
• The Second Skin talent from the Soldier’s Armor Specialist Talent Tree grants you a +1 bonus to your DR and Fortitude Defense when wearing armor. You must be proficient with the armor you are wearing to gain this benefit.
• Note: In other sections of this campaign setting a new base class can be found. This new base class is called the Cherub.
Chapter 4: Skills
• Use the Force should be renamed Use the Mind.
• A character does not automatically gain 1/2 their level as a bonus to all their skill checks. Rather, a character gets 1/2 their level as a bonus to all their class skill checks. If a skill does not appear on the class skill list of any of a character's classes then that character only adds the relevant ability modifier to that skill's skill checks.
Chapter 5: Feats
• The Armor Proficiency feats remove the Armor Check penalty from attack rolls only. Penalties to Reflex Defense (see the changes to Chapter 8: Equipment bellow) and skills remain.
• Cybernetic Weapons should be added as a group of weapons with which one can gain proficiency through the Weapon Proficiency feat.
• The following feats should be added to the game:
Cybertaker
You can have more cybernetic attachments than normal without suffering ill effects.
Benefit: The maximum number of cybernetic attachments you can have without gaining a persistent condition increases by 1 (see added Cybernetic Rules bellow). This additional cybernetic device cannot be placed in an area if it exceeds that area’s normal limit.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.
Implant Awareness
You are very alert to the location and positioning of your external implants and move in a way to keep them guarded from attack.
Benefit: Your external implants gain a +5 bonus to Defense against any attacks made against them.
Chapter 6: The Force
• Force users are called psychics, and any use of the word "force" can be replaced with the word "psychic."
• Psychic Powers never have a “Dark Side” or “Light Side” descriptor. However, powers with the “Dark Side” or “Light Side” descriptor should be given the “Taxing” descriptor. Whenever a taxing power is used the character that used it moves 1 step down the condition track if they succeed on their Use the Mind skill check to use that power, and 2 steps down the condition track if they fail on their Use the Mind skill check to use that power. Any psychic can learn to use any psychic power.
• If you roll higher than a target’s Damage Threshold with a Psychic Grip (or Force Grip), the target may only make a single Move action, not a single Swift action.
• Sever Psychic (or Sever Force) effects all psychics.
• The Dark Side Talent Tree should be removed from the game.
Chapter 8: Equipment
• Armor does not work the same way it does in Star Wars Saga. Armor does not grant a bonus to Reflex Defense. Instead, armor grants damage reduction equal to what it would normally grant as a bonus to Reflex Defense.
• The following slight changes should be made to the pistol, rifle, and retractable stock rules:
o Any weapon treated as a pistol for the purposes of proficiency and range gains a +1 bonus to hit if it is used two handed.
o Any weapon treated as a rifle for the purpose of proficiency and range forces a character to take a -5 penalty on attack rolls with the weapon if they use it in one hand (regardless of its size relative to you).
o If a weapon that is classified as a “carbine” has a retractable stock it uses the standard rules from page 125 of the Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook, though it also looses its inaccurate weapon property while the stock is retracted (and the weapon is being treated like a pistol).
o If any other rifle has a retractable stock it is not treated as a pistol for the purposes of proficiency and range when its stock is retracted. Instead, the rifle becomes classified as a “carbine” when its stock is retracted. As a “carbine” the weapon threatens all adjacent squares, and is treated as having the inaccurate weapon property. The weapon is still classified as a rifle for the purpose of proficiency and range, and any character attempting to use the weapon one handed still suffers a -5 to hit (regardless of its size relative to you).
o No weapon can be braced with a retracted stock.
• The following rules for Cybernetics (inspired by d20 Cyberscape) should be added to the game:
o A character can have a maximum number of cybernetic prosthetics equal to his Constitution modifier +1 (to a minimum of 0).
o If a character installs more cybernetics than this maximum total, he moves -1 step down the condition track, and suffers a persistent condition penalty that lasts until enough cybernetic implants are removed to place him bellow this maximum total.
o A character has 1 head slot, and 2 slots each for the torso, left arm, right arm, left leg, and right leg.
o A character can stuff one extra slot worth of cybernetics into any of the above locations, but doing so has the exact same effect as exceeding your maximum total number of implants.
o Each implant a character has should also reduce the amount of Psychic Points (or Force Points) gained from a level by -1, to a maximum of -5.
Chapter 9: Combat
• When you fight defensively from cover you gain a +5 to Reflex Defense instead of a +2, or a +10 to Reflex Defense if you make no attacks. This is in addition to the normal Reflex Defense bonuses from cover. This does not stack with the similar benefit from being trained in Acrobatics.
• When you use the Aim action you ignore all cover bonuses to your target’s Reflex Defense on your next attack, or half the cover bonuses to your target's Reflex Defense on your next attack if the target has improved cover.
• When attacking with a ranged weapon with which you do not threaten squares you are considered to be distracted, and thus potentially provoke attacks of opportunity.
• When using a ranged weapon against an adjacent target you are considered to be “shooting or firing into a melee,” and suffer all the appropriate penalties.
• Characters in the Land of Nod do not have as high of a natural damage threshold as standard Saga characters. They are forced to partly rely on their armor’s damage reduction to protect them from the effects of damage. As a result, the formula used to calculate a character’s damage threshold should be modified to read as follows:
Damage threshold = (Fortitude Defense – heroic level damage threshold adjustment) + size modifier
Heroic level damage threshold adjustment: The heroic level damage threshold adjustment is subtracted from a character’s Fortitude Defense, when calculating a character's damage threshold, in order to represent the fact that heroic characters do not get as much of a bonus to their damage threshold from level as standard Saga characters. The size of the adjustment depends on the number of total heroic levels a character has. This adjustment is -1 for characters with 1 to 4 levels, -2 for characters with 5 to 8 levels, -3 for characters with 9 to 12 levels, -4 for characters with 13 to 16 levels, and -5 for characters with 17 to 20 levels.
• Add the following ability to a characters list of attack options:
Sustained fire: By spending two swift actions you may continue to use autofire on a targeted area until the start of your next turn. Any creature moving into this area is subject to your autofire attack as if they were in the area when you made the attack. This ability consumes 10 shots in addition to the 10 shots normally consumed by using autofire on an area. You must have 10 additional shots to utilize sustained fire.
Chapter 12: Prestige Classes
• The Jedi Knight, Jedi Master, Sith Apprentice, and Sith Lord prestige classes should be removed from the game
• Note: In other sections of this campaign setting a number of new prestige classes can be found. These new prestige classes are the Praetorian Elite, Cybernetic Commando, Cherub Knight, Seraph Warlord, and Cybernaught.
I like this approach, and I think it is far easier than using my initial idea of Starting from the MSRD. I do, however, see many rule changes that seem a bit abitrary. Why did you change armor and damage threshold, for example?
I can see eliminating force classes, but that makes getting the UTF analogue as a class skill really expensive. I think for my system I will have some sort of insanity/madness system that will be integrated in to the use of supernatural forces.
As for races...I am still not sure where I want to go with this. This is going to be a little Torchwood, a little Sanctuary, with a splash of Shadowrun. While there will be supernatural creatures, I am not sure how out in the open I want them to be. As for mechanics, well that is the easy part. I will just use SAGA races and change the look and flavor.
Vehicles, on the other hand will prove to be a tough nut to crack.
The fact that WotC consistently ignores rules for building vehicles annoys me to no end.
However, For Saga I figured out that you can build (non-space-faring) vehicles by using the starship construction rules... you simply remove the starship engines from the stock model (thereby gaining some bonus emplacement points) and pay the cost for a droid locomotion system.
The drawback is that this only works for vehicles that range in size from Huge to Colossal. So motorcycles and sub-compact cars, as well as Warships, Cuiseships and Supertankers will need some house rules.
I like this approach, and I think it is far easier than using my initial idea of Starting from the MSRD. I do, however, see many rule changes that seem a bit abitrary. Why did you change armor and damage threshold, for example?
None of my changes were arbitrary. All of them were done due to a lot of painstaking calculation, and I am still tweaking them here and there (though those pretty much seem to be done and working the way I want them to).
My change to armor was because I didn't like the way the Saga armor system worked. In Saga, your level and your armor bonus to AC do not stack. If you make them stack, the game will be broken. If you don't make them stack, however, most characters have no reason to wear armor. Armor actually reduces most characters AC, it doesn't increase it. Only soldiers with the appropriate talents have any reason to actually wear armor. That is not the way I wanted my sci-fi setting to run. I wanted armor to be something that is a serious benefit to any character. If someone plans to get into a lot of combat situations in the Land of Nod, they really should be wearing armor. When I sat down and decided what changes I then wanted to make to make my desire a reality, it seemed the best way to achieve the goal was to modify the system in order to make armor work not as an AC bonus, but rather as damage reduction. Thus, everyone gets their AC from their level, but their survivability from their armor. Armor doesn't allow you to get hit less. It just allows you to survive hits better. I found this scenario more realistic. And so I went about changing the armor system in Saga. I got it to work, and work well. But, here is the thing, it made condition track hits to characters in heavy armor happen way to infrequently for my tastes. The reason is because when one combines the DR with ones damage threshold, the number can get quite high. The result, I reduced the damage threshold gains from leveling. This made everything work like I wanted. This also made unarmored combat a lot more dangerous, especially at higher levels... but that is how I wanted the game to play. The idea, in the Land of Nod, is that if you are not equipped for battle, and the terrain does not favor you, chances are, its probably best for you to avoid it.
I can see eliminating force classes, but that makes getting the UTF analogue as a class skill really expensive. I think for my system I will have some sort of insanity/madness system that will be integrated in to the use of supernatural forces.
I didn't get rid of force classes. The Cherub is based off the Jedi class. The Cherub Knight is based off the Jedi Knight class. The Seraph Warlord is based off the Jedi Master class. And Force Adepts and Disciples still exist (though they are called Psychic Adepts and Psychic Disciples). I pretty much used "The Force" to replace psionics, which have a major place in my setting. You can look in my setting to actually see what changes I made to the classes, but pretty much I made things work a little more like the battle minds from d20 Modern. The idea is not that they use lightsabers, but that they create mind blades out of thin air.
As for races...I am still not sure where I want to go with this. This is going to be a little Torchwood, a little Sanctuary, with a splash of Shadowrun. While there will be supernatural creatures, I am not sure how out in the open I want them to be. As for mechanics, well that is the easy part. I will just use SAGA races and change the look and flavor.
I have some homebrew races for my setting. Its a sci-fi setting, so none of the d20 Fantasy races. But, you can look in my setting and see what I have. I find reworking and flavoring Saga's races, or even building new ones, to be a pretty easy task.
Vehicles, on the other hand will prove to be a tough nut to crack.
Are you building Modern vehicles, or Future vehicles? I find future vehicles very easy to create. Making Modern vehicles might be a bit harder... but as my setting is a sci-fi setting, I didn't need to do that. :P
Are you building Modern vehicles, or Future vehicles? I find future vehicles very easy to create. Making Modern vehicles might be a bit harder... but as my setting is a sci-fi setting, I didn't need to do that. :P
Modern vehicles, and I want some fine differences. If my PC's are in a rush and need to steal a car, I want the Yugo that is easy to steal to be a lot worse than the 735i that will take longer to crack. It will be modern or near future, but will be a alternate take on it.
Modern vehicles, and I want some fine differences. If my PC's are in a rush and need to steal a car, I want the Yugo that is easy to steal to be a lot worse than the 735i that will take longer to crack. It will be modern or near future, but will be a alternate take on it.
you could always try using D20 Mecha's construction rules...
If you've got "just" the core book your players might get bored fast.