Creating a PrC and would appreciate some input - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Creating a PrC and would appreciate some input

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
yeti1069
Nov 25, 2008 4:18:05 Hi everyone. I've been working on a PrC with my DM for an upcoming military game and was wondering if you guys could provide some input. Any suggestions regarding current abilities (whether they seem under- or over-powered), whether you feel they are useful or useless and the basic stats (BAB, saves, Def, Rep). Also, changes to the order of abilities are welcome as well.

Also, the 5th level ability seems mediocre, and would like a suggestion to that effect as well.

The build is somewhat similar to the Spec-Op, but I've never liked that class, so we worked on this. The concept of the Pointman is just that, to take point, clear the way ahead of hostiles, explosives, security devices, and locked doors.

Prereqs: BAB +4
Stealthy, Cautious
Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Disable Device 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Special: must have 1 second level class feature from any of: Solder, Inflitrator, Martial Artist, Techie or Investigator

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills:
Climb (Str), Computer Use (Int), Demolitions (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Know: Tactics (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Navigate (Int), Profession (Wis), Read/Write Language (n/a), Repair (Int), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis)

Skill Points per level: 5 + Int
Level BAB Fort Refl Will Feature Defense Rep
1. +1 +1 +2 +0 Stealth Attack +1 +0
2. +2 +2 +3 +0 Infiltration +1 +0
Specialist, Bonus Feat
3. +3 +2 +3 +1 Midnight Prowler +2 +0
4. +4 +2 +4 +1 Shock and Awe +2 +0
5. +5 +3 +4 +1 Pinpoint Accuracy +3 +1
Bonus Feat
Stealth Attack - If a Pointman hits a flat-footed opponent with a melee weapon, or with a range weapon from no more than 30' away, the save DC to resist massive Damage increases by the Pointman's class level.

Infiltration Specialist - A Pointman's job is to clear the way for his team, whether removing enemy threats or their security. He gains a +2 bonus on Disable Device, Demolitions and Computer Use checks.

Bonus Feat - A Pointman may select any of the following as a bonus feat: Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Blind Fight, Burst Fire, Endurance, Far Shot, Gearhead, Guide, Improved Initiative, Improved Knockout Punch, Knockout Punch, Nimble, Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Weapon Focus

Midnight Prowler - A Pointman may Hide even while being observed so long as he is within 5 ft. of an area that matches the camoflage he is wearing, or is in a shadowy area. He also gains a +2 bonus on Move Silently.

Swift and Silent - You no longer take a penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks when moving up to your full speed, and the penalty for running, attack and charging is reduced by half (-10 instead of -20).

Pinpoint Accuracy - If a Pointman scores a critical hit against a taget for whom his Stealth Attack would apply, the save DC increases by a further 2, and the target cannot speak for 1 round.
#2
tema69
Nov 25, 2008 5:46:14 I'm not a balance-kinda-guy, so I can't really help you on that point, but the capstone ability seems kinda weak. Have the target be stunned or whatever if he survives, but just increasing the DC by 2 + not speaking seems a bit moot.
#3
yeti1069
Nov 25, 2008 6:04:55 Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I like the "can't speak" effect, but in conjunction with the other effect, but the ability as a whole (and as a capstone) is pretty bleh.

Part of the thought going into it was probably frustration from when I played a Sniper and would use the Auto-crit ability, with Double Tap, dealing 5d12 damage, and still having the target standing, because they made the higher Fort save (DC 25).

With this I suppose it shouldn't be an issue.

Replacing the capstone was actually my primary reason for posting the PrC here, but I decided to see what everyone thought of all the aspects as well.

So, suggestions for a new capstone ability? Something that isn't so poor that I feel the need to throw a bonus feat along with it?
#4
tema69
Nov 25, 2008 7:51:45 I'll think about the capstone.

About MAS, we've ruled that the Fort Save has a DC equal to the damage received (if it exceeded the MDT of course).
#5
yeti1069
Dec 05, 2008 5:02:05 Tema or anyone else have any ideas on that level 5 ability?

I'm at something of a loss; nothing is springing to mind here for what might suit that slot, which is odd, and has me thinking that perhaps one of the other abilities in the class is strong enough to be moved there, or is just better suited as a capstone. But if I do that, what replaces it? Just a bonus feat? And which one? Or is there, in fact, still some ability out there that would be suitable as a capstone to this class?

The class is designed to be an infiltrator, and a scout, the person who moves ahead of the group to assess a situation, gain entry to an enemy base, compound or room, and who clears the way for the rest of his team to follow. He should function similarly to a D&D rogue, and should be able to take on individual threats on his own (if they aren't too difficult), but should require his team for any real combat.

Currently, the class does the following:
-take down "trash mob" sentries (to borrow some MMO speak), swiftly and quietly
-sneaks better than anyone else, by: moving faster while doing so, being able to attack and remain hidden, and is able to hide in circumstances others would not, that is, while being observed.
-is exceedingly adept at his tasks (+2 bonuses to key skills)

So, what, if anything, is missing?
-Something to do if the enemy survives his initial attack.
-Unable to cover his rear if someone comes up behind him.
-Currently has better, but still limited computer hacking abilities for acquiring info or disabling security devices (second is more important probably).
-An ability that builds upon the first, while not being overpowering, redundant or too limited (the current capstone ability).
-There is a lack of survival-related ability, such as gaining more benefit from cover, evasion, uncanny, dodge, etc...
-Nothing special to bring to straight-up combat.

Please feel free to add anything to the lists above, or to make suggestions regarding the class as a whole or the capstone.
#6
tema69
Dec 05, 2008 8:23:47 How about the following:
Pintpoint Accuracy: If the Pointman hits an unsuspecting, flatfooted enemy in melee (or within 30 ft.), that target takes [x] amount of extra damage. If the target was an Ordinary, he automatically dies without a sound.

It's kinda powerful, so you might want to scale down on some of the other abilities a bit (like removing the +2 from Midnight Prowler).
#7
yeti1069
Dec 05, 2008 10:43:46 That's an interesting one, but I think it's too similar to the first ability of the class. And instant death without a save is something I don't want to introduce here...it'll just spring too many arguments I think.

But definitely an interesting ability.
#8
tema69
Dec 05, 2008 11:54:16 But it only works on ordinaries?

Or perhaps:
Pinpoint Acc: All attacks against flatfooted enemies always trigger massive damage save, even when they do not exceed the target's MDT.
#9
yeti1069
Dec 05, 2008 18:29:17 That's interesting. I like that one, but will have to run this by the DM. He really didn't appreciate my doing that all the time as a Sniper, so I don't know how warmly he would accept this.
#10
yeti1069
Dec 10, 2008 19:14:02 What about an ability that causes a negative status for a round on an unsuccessful Stealth Attack, such as, if the target makes it's massive damage save, they are dazed, or staggered, or something similar?

Maybe move one of the other abilities up to level 5 and add in a ability similar to the Gunslinger's that grants more protection from cover?
#11
tema69
Dec 11, 2008 2:40:39 I'd not use too many of the existing AdC talents... If the character needs that, he's gonna take a few levels of Gunslinger to get it.

Your improved Stealth Attack sounds interesting, but a bit like if we're cramming a lot of abilities into 5 levels now.
#12
yeti1069
Dec 11, 2008 3:19:43
Your improved Stealth Attack sounds interesting, but a bit like if we're cramming a lot of abilities into 5 levels now.

Could be. What should I move to cap then? Hide in plain sight? And this still begs the question...what goes in the empty slot?

An ability that cuts in half the time to disable, disarm a bomb (demo), and/or hack a computer? Something specific to one of these?

Maybe the Spec-Op ability: +4 Initiative, +5 ft. movement?
#13
tema69
Dec 11, 2008 4:49:32 Hide in plain sight is kinda powerful, so I guess it could become the cap.

Just post "abilities per level" so far, and we'll look at it. It's a bit confusing in the OP, and it's easier to separate it to work on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 yeti1069 Nov 25, 2008 4:18:05	Hi everyone. I've been working on a PrC with my DM for an upcoming military game and was wondering if you guys could provide some input. Any suggestions regarding current abilities (whether they seem under- or over-powered), whether you feel they are useful or useless and the basic stats (BAB, saves, Def, Rep). Also, changes to the order of abilities are welcome as well. Also, the 5th level ability seems mediocre, and would like a suggestion to that effect as well. The build is somewhat similar to the Spec-Op, but I've never liked that class, so we worked on this. The concept of the Pointman is just that, to take point, clear the way ahead of hostiles, explosives, security devices, and locked doors. Prereqs: BAB +4 Stealthy, Cautious Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks, Disable Device 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks Special: must have 1 second level class feature from any of: Solder, Inflitrator, Martial Artist, Techie or Investigator Hit Die: d8 Class Skills: Climb (Str), Computer Use (Int), Demolitions (Int), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Know: Tactics (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Navigate (Int), Profession (Wis), Read/Write Language (n/a), Repair (Int), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) Skill Points per level: 5 + Int Level BAB Fort Refl Will Feature Defense Rep 1. +1 +1 +2 +0 Stealth Attack +1 +0 2. +2 +2 +3 +0 Infiltration +1 +0 Specialist, Bonus Feat 3. +3 +2 +3 +1 Midnight Prowler +2 +0 4. +4 +2 +4 +1 Shock and Awe +2 +0 5. +5 +3 +4 +1 Pinpoint Accuracy +3 +1 Bonus Feat Stealth Attack - If a Pointman hits a flat-footed opponent with a melee weapon, or with a range weapon from no more than 30' away, the save DC to resist massive Damage increases by the Pointman's class level. Infiltration Specialist - A Pointman's job is to clear the way for his team, whether removing enemy threats or their security. He gains a +2 bonus on Disable Device, Demolitions and Computer Use checks. Bonus Feat - A Pointman may select any of the following as a bonus feat: Advanced Firearms Proficiency, Alertness, Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Blind Fight, Burst Fire, Endurance, Far Shot, Gearhead, Guide, Improved Initiative, Improved Knockout Punch, Knockout Punch, Nimble, Precise Shot, Shot on the Run, Simple Weapons Proficiency, Weapon Focus Midnight Prowler - A Pointman may Hide even while being observed so long as he is within 5 ft. of an area that matches the camoflage he is wearing, or is in a shadowy area. He also gains a +2 bonus on Move Silently. Swift and Silent - You no longer take a penalty on Hide or Move Silently checks when moving up to your full speed, and the penalty for running, attack and charging is reduced by half (-10 instead of -20). Pinpoint Accuracy - If a Pointman scores a critical hit against a taget for whom his Stealth Attack would apply, the save DC increases by a further 2, and the target cannot speak for 1 round.
#2 tema69 Nov 25, 2008 5:46:14	I'm not a balance-kinda-guy, so I can't really help you on that point, but the capstone ability seems kinda weak. Have the target be stunned or whatever if he survives, but just increasing the DC by 2 + not speaking seems a bit moot.
#3 yeti1069 Nov 25, 2008 6:04:55	Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I like the "can't speak" effect, but in conjunction with the other effect, but the ability as a whole (and as a capstone) is pretty bleh. Part of the thought going into it was probably frustration from when I played a Sniper and would use the Auto-crit ability, with Double Tap, dealing 5d12 damage, and still having the target standing, because they made the higher Fort save (DC 25). With this I suppose it shouldn't be an issue. Replacing the capstone was actually my primary reason for posting the PrC here, but I decided to see what everyone thought of all the aspects as well. So, suggestions for a new capstone ability? Something that isn't so poor that I feel the need to throw a bonus feat along with it?
#4 tema69 Nov 25, 2008 7:51:45	I'll think about the capstone. About MAS, we've ruled that the Fort Save has a DC equal to the damage received (if it exceeded the MDT of course).
#5 yeti1069 Dec 05, 2008 5:02:05	Tema or anyone else have any ideas on that level 5 ability? I'm at something of a loss; nothing is springing to mind here for what might suit that slot, which is odd, and has me thinking that perhaps one of the other abilities in the class is strong enough to be moved there, or is just better suited as a capstone. But if I do that, what replaces it? Just a bonus feat? And which one? Or is there, in fact, still some ability out there that would be suitable as a capstone to this class? The class is designed to be an infiltrator, and a scout, the person who moves ahead of the group to assess a situation, gain entry to an enemy base, compound or room, and who clears the way for the rest of his team to follow. He should function similarly to a D&D rogue, and should be able to take on individual threats on his own (if they aren't too difficult), but should require his team for any real combat. Currently, the class does the following: -take down "trash mob" sentries (to borrow some MMO speak), swiftly and quietly -sneaks better than anyone else, by: moving faster while doing so, being able to attack and remain hidden, and is able to hide in circumstances others would not, that is, while being observed. -is exceedingly adept at his tasks (+2 bonuses to key skills) So, what, if anything, is missing? -Something to do if the enemy survives his initial attack. -Unable to cover his rear if someone comes up behind him. -Currently has better, but still limited computer hacking abilities for acquiring info or disabling security devices (second is more important probably). -An ability that builds upon the first, while not being overpowering, redundant or too limited (the current capstone ability). -There is a lack of survival-related ability, such as gaining more benefit from cover, evasion, uncanny, dodge, etc... -Nothing special to bring to straight-up combat. Please feel free to add anything to the lists above, or to make suggestions regarding the class as a whole or the capstone.
#6 tema69 Dec 05, 2008 8:23:47	How about the following: Pintpoint Accuracy: If the Pointman hits an unsuspecting, flatfooted enemy in melee (or within 30 ft.), that target takes [x] amount of extra damage. If the target was an Ordinary, he automatically dies without a sound. It's kinda powerful, so you might want to scale down on some of the other abilities a bit (like removing the +2 from Midnight Prowler).
#7 yeti1069 Dec 05, 2008 10:43:46	That's an interesting one, but I think it's too similar to the first ability of the class. And instant death without a save is something I don't want to introduce here...it'll just spring too many arguments I think. But definitely an interesting ability.
#8 tema69 Dec 05, 2008 11:54:16	But it only works on ordinaries? Or perhaps: Pinpoint Acc: All attacks against flatfooted enemies always trigger massive damage save, even when they do not exceed the target's MDT.
#9 yeti1069 Dec 05, 2008 18:29:17	That's interesting. I like that one, but will have to run this by the DM. He really didn't appreciate my doing that all the time as a Sniper, so I don't know how warmly he would accept this.
#10 yeti1069 Dec 10, 2008 19:14:02	What about an ability that causes a negative status for a round on an unsuccessful Stealth Attack, such as, if the target makes it's massive damage save, they are dazed, or staggered, or something similar? Maybe move one of the other abilities up to level 5 and add in a ability similar to the Gunslinger's that grants more protection from cover?
#11 tema69 Dec 11, 2008 2:40:39	I'd not use too many of the existing AdC talents... If the character needs that, he's gonna take a few levels of Gunslinger to get it. Your improved Stealth Attack sounds interesting, but a bit like if we're cramming a lot of abilities into 5 levels now.
#12 yeti1069 Dec 11, 2008 3:19:43	Your improved Stealth Attack sounds interesting, but a bit like if we're cramming a lot of abilities into 5 levels now. Could be. What should I move to cap then? Hide in plain sight? And this still begs the question...what goes in the empty slot? An ability that cuts in half the time to disable, disarm a bomb (demo), and/or hack a computer? Something specific to one of these? Maybe the Spec-Op ability: +4 Initiative, +5 ft. movement?
#13 tema69 Dec 11, 2008 4:49:32	Hide in plain sight is kinda powerful, so I guess it could become the cap. Just post "abilities per level" so far, and we'll look at it. It's a bit confusing in the OP, and it's easier to separate it to work on.