(Note: Specifically, I'm planning to throw one at my D&D group sometime soon, part of a plot where a villain has been aquiring weapons from other worlds -- However, I've always wondered how to do this should I ever run a mecha game with this system -- I actually have an idea for a mecha campaign, it's like RIFTS crossed with Gundam 00...)
Edit: Just noticed D20 Mecha has a system that includes CR, and since the board seems to reccomend that system I may use it for this encounter. My only problem with that system was the ability to create extremely unbalanced mecha -- this is less of a problem if I am the GM, and not a problem for a one-off mecha being used in an encounter.
One thing confuses me, though -- That Mecha CR, is that for the mecha itself no matter the pilot? Doesn't seem right... Is it added in along with the pilot like another creature, or what? Or is it assuming some sort of default level pilot?
But seriously check out the article,, and see if it does what you want... if you have any questions just ask...
Hope it Helps.
Bill
...If I may ask, how did you make the purchase DC -> GP value table, and how much did you playtest this?
As for playtesting... well I have to be honest and say that I didn't playtest it at all... and I highly doubt that anyone at WotC did either.
But IN THEORY... (if the chart in the DMG is correct) the encounter should be balanced if the mecha is piloted by a level appropriate NPC.
If you want to put the rules to the test, I'd be happy to help you out before you subject your PCs to them.
By the way, what Level are the PCs in your campaign?
the GM has to ensure that it will be a fight rather than a TPK killing spree. While a low CR/EL mech encounter might look right at first, you gave to evaluate the ability of the PCs in the party to effectively fight the mech.
Just as you wouldnt put a Were up against a party with no Silver, or throw an incorpreal monster that can only be hit by magic against a party with no magic.... you cant throw a 30Hardness armor mech against a party that cant reliably do 30+ damage per attack. Even ift he CR/EL says it could be fair, you have to see if it really is plausible at all.
Make sure the party has access to weapons that would be effective in fighting the mech.
Check to see if the only thing the pary can do is have 3 guys run away while the one guy with a LasRifle that can Burst tries to do 5d8 against 30Hardness
WW2: Bazooka
Nam: LAW
80's : AT4
Sandbox: Dragons, Javelins
Future: ..... nothing, in the future infantry just get killed by Armor cause they have no AT shoulder fire rockets. FutureTech book tried to address this problem by giving a 4ShotRocket (rip off of obsolete m202), but that is a Cheater RuleBreaker gun: It ignores the rules on Linkfire&Battery.
For giggles, put a Strong/MartialArtist in the mecha, and get all KungFu Giant Robot on the party..... the mecha is treated as just a suit of armor like a Undercover Vest or FlackJacket, so your giant metal punches work just fine with the added damage of the suit strength. The Suit is not STR18 or STR20, it is STR+8 which means you have a Str18 Pilot get punchy with an effective tohit & damage bonus of +8 for str.
Factotum 9/Targeteer 1 - My DMPC which I only have because we use a rotating-DM system. When I'm DMing he's either doing supporty things or just making regular ranged attacks.
Generic Spellcaster 6/Eldritch Knight (Pathfinder version) 4 - Fire-loving sorceress type
Generic Warrior 2 / Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6 - In a frenzy has three attacks with like 16 average damage. Point her at things and they die.
Half-Vampire Swashbuckler/Duelist/Something ToB (ECL 9) - While he sucks at doing raw damage, he is the grapple MASTAH -- so far, whenever he grapples a foe, it's out of the fight (admittedly he's avoided doing it with anything that would be really good at grappling)
Valkyrie (I forget her actual class) (ECL 9) - Does charging jumps with leap attack and shock trooper for _insane_ damage.
Druid (monkish UA variant) 9 - Haven't really seen her in action yet. Has a giant crocodile companion.
Multiclass mishmash/Dread Pirate - Inspire Courage +3, uses single-shot pistols and dual-wields cutlasses.
Considering some of the party is optimized, they generally fight above their level... If all seven of these PCs are there, I think an encounter level of 15 or 16 may be appropriate, maybe a bit less if they have to fight their way past anything other than mooks in the weapons dealer's stronghold (haven't decided yet)
It's a Planescape game, basically the story is partly about how incursions from other dimensions are resulting in high tech getting into the D&D world -- A couple party members have assault rifles, and the spellcaster is trying to get them reverse-engineered and then information on how to make them made freely available, so as to head off rich corrupt people buying them up and keeping them to themselves to oppress people.
At the moment, they're tracking down a weapons dealer in Sigil who's managed to get his hands on a variety of weaponry including assault rifles, rocket launchers, and magitech coilguns and who knows what else that the party doesn't know about, so that they can either kill him or bring him to justice before he gets a chance to sell any more of his weapons to tyrants or something, and maybe try to figure out where he's getting them. I'm currently expecting the boss battle for this adventure to have the weapons dealer himself piloting a large mecha and his right hand man, an aspiring warlord with all the nifty automatic weapon feats and one of the better assault rifles or a light machinegun or something.
I asked because I feared this might be the case... Do you really think WotC would have extensively tested high tech in the D&D world based on its wealth value, especially futuristic stuff like mecha? If there's anything 8 years of 3rd edition has shown us, it's that things that should be balanced 'in theory'... well who boy, we have a whole board that shot that idea full of holes. Still, I'll see what the stats end up looking like and try to judge that way. Maybe do it out in D20 Mecha too and see what I come up with.
It sort of bothers me that Wizards allows untested stuff to go up like that... Hopefully they're being better about this in 4E...
Beyond the basic evaluation of CR & EL,
the GM has to ensure that it will be a fight rather than a TPK killing spree. While a low CR/EL mech encounter might look right at first, you gave to evaluate the ability of the PCs in the party to effectively fight the mech.
Just as you wouldnt put a Were up against a party with no Silver, or throw an incorpreal monster that can only be hit by magic against a party with no magic.... you cant throw a 30Hardness armor mech against a party that cant reliably do 30+ damage per attack. Even ift he CR/EL says it could be fair, you have to see if it really is plausible at all.
So far they've slaughtered anything I've thrown at them that wasn't broken (immoth, I'm looking at you. Your CR is a lie). One time, with just 4 ECL 9 characters present for a session, the person who was supposed to GM was a no-show, so I ran a dragon fight. I meant to throw something challenging (around CR 11), but accidentally miscalculated and threw a CR 14 green dragon at them. Nearly killed a party member before it was finally taken down. Admittedly, they walked into its lair and got ambushed and the fight started -- I didn't have it harrying them outside its lair flying and using invisibility or something like that, so that was probably part of it.
First of all, going by the guidelines Waylan Wolf has provided, we'll be looking at hardness 10-15 at this level -- between magic blasts and people who do absurd damage (the valkyrie did two 60-damage hits in a single turn last fight!) I'm not that worried. I can always start fudging down the stats mid-battle if it looks too tough. I doubt AC will be a problem.
Some party members can't really damage the mecha, those who don't have spells or CRAZYDAMAGE, it's true, but if the boss fight also includes that henchman they can focus on him.
For giggles, put a Strong/MartialArtist in the mecha, and get all KungFu Giant Robot on the party..... the mecha is treated as just a suit of armor like a Undercover Vest or FlackJacket, so your giant metal punches work just fine with the added damage of the suit strength. The Suit is not STR18 or STR20, it is STR+8 which means you have a Str18 Pilot get punchy with an effective tohit & damage bonus of +8 for str.
G Gundam is too silly for my tastes :P
I didn't playtest it, but I took these things into consideration before just arbitrarily going with the PDC to CR correlation... Give me a little credit Backstabbist... sheesh!;) :P :D
If I had thought that there were other things to consider I'd have mentioned them in the article...
Anyway...
for a party of 8th-10th level characters, you want an NPC of 9th to 13th level... according to the chart, that's PDC 36-40. That's anywhere from a PL5 large or huge mecha with a hardness of 10 to a PL6 Large Mecha with a hardness of 15 at most. The armor available ranges from a +5 bonus to +8 so you are looking at defense score of 14 (+ pilot's dex) to 17 (+ pilot's dex) which shouldn't be too hard for your guys to hit all though a bastion or bulwark shield could raise that as high as 23 (+ pilot's dex). The maximum damage output available for a PDC36-40 mecha is 15d6 with a reflex save for half... and that it can only do 4 times before its out of missiles.
That sounds like a decent challenge to me... but then again i'm biased.;) :P :D
Can a mecha pilot taking a full attack action use any weapon he wants for each attack action in the full attack, or do they all have to be with the same weapon? I'm a bit rusty, and the situation of a character with multiple weapons without two-weapon-fighting never comes up.
Hmm, here's something I don't see any rules about...
Can a mecha pilot taking a full attack action use any weapon he wants for each attack action in the full attack, or do they all have to be with the same weapon? I'm a bit rusty, and the situation of a character with multiple weapons without two-weapon-fighting never comes up.
I don't think there's a specific mech version of this rule... I BELIEVE the design philosophy for D20 Future's Mecha is: if a PC can do it a Mech can do it...
So if a PC has a sub machine gun in one hand, a mini rocket launcher in the other and a boot knife in the toe of his cowboy boot, can he fire off a burst with the smg, launch a rocket, and kick an adjacent opponent as part of a full round action?
I think the official rule is "No". But I'd call it a GM ruling.
they really made giant robots just a suit of armor.... Its not so much as having many attack options with the MachineGun & Rocket & Bootknife,
but a guy can TWF with a Gun & Rocket or Gun & Boot, you dont get to take 2 shots 2 kicks and a bite cause you have enough weapons.
The alternate to this is the Vehicle/Ship way, Primary Attack and -5 Secondary Attacks.
To fire different weapons you need multiple gunners.
You can then mesh the Fighter ship rule that Ultralights Fighters can operate all weapons and sensors and pilot and damage control and every other Required operator position that ships have,
while Mecha have the CoPilot Seat for alternate weapons
iirc, the CoPilot seat text talks about secondary weapons a bit... I gotta reread that before I make any guarantees
COCKPIT, COPILOT (PL 5)
This extra cockpit provides a comfortable station inside the mecha for a Small or Medium-size copilot. A copilot has the ability to fire the mecha’s ranged weapons, perform active scans using the mecha’s sensor systems, or aid the pilot’s attacks and skill checks (using the aid another action). Melee combat, defense, and movement remain under the control of the mecha’s operator in the main cockpit. A copilot doesn’t grant the mecha additional attacks in a round, and only one character may fire each ranged weapon each round. The mecha operator or copilot can transfer weapon control as a free action.
As a move action, the mecha’s operator can lock out one or more copilot cockpits, shutting off the cameras, locking the hatches, and so on.
It takes a successful Computer Use check (DC 25 if the operator is disabled, 35 if the operator is still active) to switch overall control of the mecha to a copilot cockpit.
A copilot doesn’t grant the mecha additional attacks in a round,
and only one character may fire each ranged weapon each round
well, what does that mean...
yes, the pilot can fire each weapon once per round?
What about iterative +11/+6/+1 from one gun? Can the Pilot take +11/+6/+1 attacks with one gun, and the CoPilot take his lower level +7/+2 attacks with a different gun?
Sometimes I think the guys that wrote the Mecha section never played the game with Vehicles, and didnt talk to the guys that did the Ships section
Sometimes I think the guys that wrote the Mecha section never played the game with Vehicles, and didnt talk to the guys that did the Ships section
You are right... each section was written by a different person, and they didn't coordinate with each other at all... so sad...
Don't get me started on the starship rules...
Bear in mind my previous caveats; but my theory was that if you add 15 or 20 to the wealth bonus for a character of that level, all the components of the mecha would be balanced since they would be in the wealth range of characters of that level.
(I forget which page the wealth bonus by level table is on, but it's in the Modern CRB near the table of Dollar values converted to wealth DC's).
I don't think there's a specific mech version of this rule... I BELIEVE the design philosophy for D20 Future's Mecha is: if a PC can do it a Mech can do it...
So if a PC has a sub machine gun in one hand, a mini rocket launcher in the other and a boot knife in the toe of his cowboy boot, can he fire off a burst with the smg, launch a rocket, and kick an adjacent opponent as part of a full round action?
I think the official rule is "No". But I'd call it a GM ruling.
I should have clarified: Assuming the pilot has high enough BAB for multiple attacks. We're looking at a level 12-13 or thereabouts pilot, he'll have enough BAB for multiple attacks. The question is, if you have multiple attacks, can you make each with a different weapon without two-weapon fighting or the like?
I should have clarified: Assuming the pilot has high enough BAB for multiple attacks. We're looking at a level 12-13 or thereabouts pilot, he'll have enough BAB for multiple attacks. The question is, if you have multiple attacks, can you make each with a different weapon without two-weapon fighting or the like?
I think the official answer is "No"... but its not spelled out anywhere in the books... maybe its in a "Bullet Points" article...
That being said...
Its really a GM call...
I'm sorry I can't be more helpful in this regard, but I didn't write the Mecha rules, and I can't find anything that specifically addresses your question.
Sorry.
I don't know how well it works, i never had the chance to fully develop or playtest it, but you could decide the CR of a mech by it's purchase DC (or that of it's components for a homebrew mecha). I realize Waylan already mentioned this, but i think i had a slightly different approach that you can cannibalize as you wish.
Bear in mind my previous caveats; but my theory was that if you add 15 or 20 to the wealth bonus for a character of that level, all the components of the mecha would be balanced since they would be in the wealth range of characters of that level.
(I forget which page the wealth bonus by level table is on, but it's in the Modern CRB near the table of Dollar values converted to wealth DC's).
You know, for mecha in a modern game that sounds like it should work... it makes even the cheapest mecha un-available until 11th-16th level, but Modern characters don't have access to the spells and magic items that D&D characters have...
The question Scottbert is asking, and the article I wrote, is about Mecha in a D&D setting... where a 9th level character has access to spells that a modern character can't get until 13th level at the earliest.
I mean a 9th level caster can cast Stoneskin, wall of force, protection from energy, resist energy, and direct damage spells that do 9d6 points of damage (that's 31.5 points of damage on average, more than enough to overcome hardness 10 or 15).
Steel Gunner (12917.75 GP)
Frame: Large Alumisteel (36, 10000)
Hardness 10
+8 STR, Speed 30', slam 1d8
Armor: Alumisteel (28, 1000)
AC +5, ACP -6, SP -5
Helmet: Cockpit
Back: Self-Destruct mechanism (20, 100)
Left arm: Hand Replacement (13, 13.75)
Left arm: M-9 Barrage Chaingun (21, 137.5)
4 ammo belts of 60, (8x4, 14)
Left arm: Strength Booster (15, 25)
Right arm: Shock Rod (19, 75)
Right arm: Strength Booster
Right arm: Dexterity Booster (17, 45)
Shoulders: Firestar Rocket Launcher (24, 325)
6 rockets (free)
Torso: Cockpit
Boots: Dexterity Booster (17, 45)
Slotless: Comm system (21, 137.5)
Slotless: Prototype Fusion Power Core (28, 1000)
Just under 13k for a mecha? Admittedly in player hands it would just be a big suit of armor with a couple powerful attacks due to lack of piloting feats... But I think the only person it would be a serious downgrade for is the mage who does better blasting with spells.
You know, for mecha in a modern game that sounds like it should work... it makes even the cheapest mecha un-available until 11th-16th level, but Modern characters don't have access to the spells and magic items that D&D characters have...
The question Scottbert is asking, and the article I wrote, is about Mecha in a D&D setting... where a 9th level character has access to spells that a modern character can't get until 13th level at the earliest.
I mean a 9th level caster can cast Stoneskin, wall of force, protection from energy, resist energy, and direct damage spells that do 9d6 points of damage (that's 31.5 points of damage on average, more than enough to overcome hardness 10 or 15).
Oops. Sorry. Didn't see the part where he said he needed CR for a D&D setting.
Thank you for the feedback on my idea though.
How about settting a CR for the size of the Mecha plus CR for the weapons deployed with the unit and half the pilots ranks as to equaling the total CR... i.e. 10 (Gargantuan Mecha) + 5 (weapons) + 5 (Pilot 10) = 20 CR
I don't think the CR system works that way, but in any case where are you getting those numbers?
A guy was asking about the XP for one of his players killing an attack helicopter with a pistol.
Some folks suggested hardly any: The heli guy was clearly committing suicide by choosing to put himself into pistol range, rather than shoot up the party from well outside the range of the party's guns
I suppose it would really depend on the circumstances...
I mean if the Attack helicopter had just started up and lifted off the ground while the PC was standing on the tarmac shooting, I'd say that's a fair (and typical hollywood-style) shoot down of an attack chopper with a pistol.
--CR--
Medium (Personal Power Armor; Halo, Fox frim MGS, Etcetera) +1
Large (Power Armor; Masamune Shirow Style)+3
Huge +5
Gargantuan +7
Colossal +9
--PL-- Starting at PL 6
PL6; +2
PL7; +3
PL8; +4
PL9; +5
PL9 Above; +6
Add half of the Wearers/Pilots Level to the CR rounding up... but I am thinking a set CR for the weapon type; Ballastic, energy, etcetera
Still working on the weaponry carried by the Mecha... Maybe incorporate for what Armor the Mecha is equipped with...
Edit: Forgot the PL Tech Level...
Due to the party slowing down for various reasons, they still have yet to actually face the boss with the mecha. Hopefully next week.
My game is a D&D game where due to some dimension-hopping, PL 5 guns have become prolific with certain groups. Right now they're trying to stop a group of arms dealers from selling modern weapons to the highest bidder, as they would then be used to oppress people. They've just seen guns so far, but I thought it would be cool if the 'boss' had a mecha, indicating that if these people aren't stopped, guns in the wrong hands are only the beginning...
Heh. Sounds cool.
By the way, did you decide whether you were going to use D20 Future or D20 Mecha? I'm just curious.
Heh. Sounds cool.
By the way, did you decide whether you were going to use D20 Future or D20 Mecha? I'm just curious.
D20 mecha, this time.
let us know how it goes.:D
Mecha issues:
Hardness and high HP a problem? No, not at all. Some characters had difficulty doing anything, but between a dragoon-like that does over 60 damage a hit and charges for one or two hits most rounds, and the rocket launcher the party found earlier (with only a few rockets, of course) it worked out alright. They almost beat it without much challenge, I added +50% HP and that made it a close fight. Another round and people probably would have died.
Improved Evasive Action is good, maybe too good... Certainly it's extremely frustrating to players, though partly this was because the dice were not with the 60+ damage player this time and it made some of their few attacks that rolled well miss.
Mecha Weapon Boost is nice... _too_ nice perhaps with something like the firestar rocket launcher -- I didn't use them together. Speaking of which the firestar launcher is OK but being able to fire it twice in a round seems like too much (I never did that either).
An extremely dexy pilot and dex boosters add up to an insanely dodgy mech. My players rolled well enough that they still hit sometimes and it wasn't a big pain, but the sorceress was extremely miffed at touch attacks suddenly being so hard to hit with.
If I have mecha show up again, I may use the future tech mecha as vehicles rules to prevent pilot and mecha ability stacking. Especially if the players are going to get their hands on one. (They aren't getting this one -- they did enough damage on the finishing hit to make it explode. Might have killed them but everyone was hasted and able to jump into a nearby moat for cover in the 1 round before explosion)
More later. Tired now.
That sounds like an awesome encounter!