So, any questions about being on either end of firearm use, fire away! Sounds like we have several experienced gunheads in the community, so I am sure we can come to useful conclusions for you.
If possible, could some admin copy my non-5.7 posts here? It would be good to have the others copied too, but I don't want to speak for the other posters. I'd be happy to pull post numbers if you like.
(BTW, I was a Army Reserve Small-arms tech for 8 years, with a year of that in Kuwait.)
Rounds missing from the Table:
14.5x115mm Russian
13x64mm German (the round from the MG-131)
.60 American (Another one, there was a 15.2mm/.60 cal on the P-38L post war in a test.)
15.5x115mm (never actually saw production, but it was for the BRG-15)
13.9x99 British (Boys AT Rifle)
Weapon - KPV
DMG - 2d12+2
Critical - 20
Type - Ballistic
RngInc 125 ft.
ROF - Auto
Magazine - Linked
Size - Huge
Weight - 108 lb.
Purch DC 22
Restriction - Mil (+3)
The stats are closely based on the M2 .50cal HMG. I added a little to DMG and Rng, since it's moving a little faster.
644gr@3200fps (KPV)
650gr@3025fps (M2)
The others, At D20M's level of resolution, I would just use either the KPV or M2's stat lines.
2d3: .25 ACP
2d4: .22 LR, 5.45x25mm, .32 ACP, 3.4mm flechette
2d4+1: .38 S&W, .380 ACP, 9x18mm PM, .38 Long Colt, 9x19mm (subsonic loading), .38 Special, .22 WMR, 9x18mm PMM, 5.7x28mm FN, 4.6mm HK, 7.62x25mm Tokarev
2d6: .38 Super, 9x19mm, .22 Hornet, .17 Remington, .338 nova, 4.35mm flechette
2d6+1: .357 SIG, .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, .41 AE, .45 ACP, .45 Long Colt, .30 Carbine/7.62x33mm, 7.62x25mm Tokarev (Czech loading), .300 Whisper (subsonic loading)
2d8: .45 Long Colt +p, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull, .50 AE, .440 CorBon, .50 Alexander, .458 Socom, 5.45x39mm/.21 Russian, 5.8x42mm Chinese, 20ga, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm NATO, .44 AutoMag, .300 Whisper, 4.7mm caseless, 12mm, 10.7mm
2d8+1: 7.62x39mm M43/.30 Russian, .30-30, .243 Win, 6.8mm SPC, 7.92x33mm Kurz, .510 Whisper (subsonic loading), 14mm caseless
2d8+d6: .803 gyro
2d10: .270 Win, .308 Win, .30-06, 7.62x54mm, 7.92x57mm Mauser, .300 Win Mag, 12ga, .45-70 Gov't, .500 magnum, 8mm caseless
2d10+1: .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin Magnum, .45-70 +p, 12 ga 3" Magnum
2d12: .338 Lapua, .375 H&H Magnum, 10ga, 12ga 3-1/2" Magnum, .510 Whisper
2d12+1: .458 Win Mag, .505 Gibbs, .404 Jeffreys, .600 Nitro Express, .666 magnum
2d12+2: 8ga
2d12+3: .700 Nitro Express
2d12+4: .800 Nitro Express
2d20: 12.7x109mm Soviet, .50 BMG/12.7x99mm
2d20+2: 22.4mm
2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet
as the table shows, 12.7mm Russian is on par with the BMG
Everything I have read says the M2 Browning and the NSV are closely matched in performance.
however the 14.5 is significantly more powerful in some aspects. *shrug* I just find it weird to see .50BMG sitting beside more powerful rounds like 14.5 for damage. Either way, I was looking for input, and appear to be getting it.
It certainly is. It's 200 fps faster with roughly the same weight bullet. I have seen stats giving it 50% more muzzle energy. It is a monster of a HMG.
The stock stats give the BMG 2d12 damage. That table says 2d20. I don't know the history behind that table, but it makes sense. If a 7.62mm round is 2d10, and a .338 Laupa is 2d12, I can easily see a .50 BMG being 2d20.
If a Ma Deuce is 2d20, I would guess a KPV would be 2d20+5.
Damnit, Photobucket sized them down...
That's a spicey meatball for a 12.7 slug
And a barrel life measured in three digits...
The first round you fire is 7.92mmx94.
Next one is 7.95mm
Next is 7.98mm...
Next thing you know, you have a shotgun!
if you only kill three digits of tanks with that gun, it has certainly met its quota to excess and can be retired with honors.
>50FatMac: 20mm case cut to 76mm & necked to shoot 50bmg slugs,
>750gr @3400 for 19k ftlb
The Germans actually did have a siege gun in WW2 with shells in slightly increasing size because of barrel erosion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav
does it knock the pin over, or drive it into the ground like a nail
When I saw it being fired, the bowling ball just didn't come down within visible range. I figure some rancher came out and found a surprise squished cow.
When I saw it being fired, the bowling ball just didn't come down
Call NASA, we've had a launch.
That thing would be great to get fresh hot lunches up to the shuttle crews.
That was such a cool mortar. To the best of my knowledge, it was made from the baseplate and bipod of a Russian 120mm heavy mortar, with a sawn-off compressed oxygen tank for a tube, and a lanyard-pull firing mechanism. It was quite possibly the coolest thing I saw at the whole MG shoot, and there was a lot of cool stuff there.
It was fun to ask one of the owners if I could shoot his Madsen LMG, only to have him look at me in disbelief and say "You actually know what it is?!?"
It was fun to ask one of the owners if I could shoot his Madsen LMG, only to have him look at me in disbelief and say "You actually know what it is?!?"
Did you get to fire it?
I also got to shoot a USAS-12 full-auto shotgun, a re-welded M1A1 Thompson that wouldn't stop jamming, a suppressed Walther P-22 (which I liked so much that I eventually bought a suppressor for mine), and a weird franken-gun consisting of a full-auto M16 lower with an MG-34 upper modified to fit onto it.
The shotgun was interesting. It was far too heavy to ever be of use for anything but novelty, but I managed to hold on and control a 10-round burst of 00 buckshot. I have the video lying around somewhere, it was pretty cool.
I remember an article on guys rewelding the rifled barrels of torch demil'ed 20& 30mm guns. They turned each cut end for a weld fill taper, then pounded a short brass rod thru the chamber until a few inches of it stuck out the cut barrel. They then carefully (yeh, I bet) threaded the other rifling onto the exposed brass with grooves cut in it. True it up & weld. The brass kept the rifling in time so it was almost uninterupted rifling.
Yep. The deal was $30 for three full magazines from whatever I wanted. I picked an MP-40, a M1918A2 BAR and the Madsen. It was a ripoff, but hey, why not have a little fun with some classic blasters, eh?
I also got to shoot a USAS-12 full-auto shotgun, a re-welded M1A1 Thompson that wouldn't stop jamming, a suppressed Walther P-22 (which I liked so much that I eventually bought a suppressor for mine), and a weird franken-gun consisting of a full-auto M16 lower with an MG-34 upper modified to fit onto it.
The shotgun was interesting. It was far too heavy to ever be of use for anything but novelty, but I managed to hold on and control a 10-round burst of 00 buckshot. I have the video lying around somewhere, it was pretty cool.
I shot the same USAS-12. I didn't mind the weight, but it only had around 30 ten round mags through it when I shot it, and I had 2 failures in one ten round mag on full auto (one stove pipe and one mis-feed). In my mind that's a totally unacceptable failure rate, and the USAS-12 is a rather spendy piece of hardware. My buddy in Pueblo county SWAT tells me that these types of failures are pretty common. It's a pity because I love the idea of a full auto shotgun.
Yeah, the Daewoo quality-control level isn't what it should be, and the standard 12-gauge shell really isn't designed for effective feeding from a box mag. That square shoulder and full rim just don't contribute to positive feeding. I was happy that the ten rounds I shot through it went without a hitch, but I saw several other people jam the thing.
From what I hear, the Grendel is supposed to provide outstanding performance at long range. How would that stat out?
Yeah, the Daewoo quality-control level isn't what it should be, and the standard 12-gauge shell really isn't designed for effective feeding from a box mag. That square shoulder and full rim just don't contribute to positive feeding. I was happy that the ten rounds I shot through it went without a hitch, but I saw several other people jam the thing.
Edit: ROK = Republic of Korea (South Korea)
I had a Daewoo microwave, VCR/DVD player and TV. All were utter trash.
I've yet to see any of their guns that don't fit the same mold.
Another old college friend of mine works as a biomedical/mechanical engineer for a car crash reenactment company. She says, without a doubt, Daewoo cars are the worst for crash survivability.
I had a Daewoo microwave, VCR/DVD player and TV. All were utter trash.
I've yet to see any of their guns that don't fit the same mold.
I've had very good luck with Daewoo monitors when i had them. i actually had a Daewoo monitor out last a newer LG monitor once. ran on the same system, same conditions, the LG was just faulty for some reason. never had a daewoo outlast aoc monitors yet. so not everything they make is utter trash..
actually.. i think daewoo might even have built a destroyer.. them or one of the other companies you only see computer components from in the US and canada.. like goldstar (i forget who owns them off hand), or Mitsubishi (who built the Zero for those who don't know).
and this is totally off topic
Weapons like carbines and shotguns were made to be fired at close range, so I don't see why it shouldn't work.
Any thoughts on allowing certain large sized weapons to be handled as medium sized for the purposes of firing against adjacent targets?
Weapons like carbines and shotguns were made to be fired at close range, so I don't see why it shouldn't work.
This is one of my standard house rules. Any subcompact assault rifle (i.e. less than 12" of barrel length), submachine gun or short shotgun (14" or shorter barrels) counts as a Medium weapon for purposes of Close Combat Shot or similar abilities. Thus, things like the AKSU-74, Noveske Diplomat, Colt Commando, Wilson Combat Border Patrol shotgun, Sig 552, etc etc can be used in close quarters very easily by trained folks.
Now, I also balance that out by re-working range increments, and reducing damage after a certain number of increments. Thus, the super-short rifles see drastic reductions in efficiency at medium-to-long-range. There's always a trade-off.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp
http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/M1014NF.htm
http://www.remingtonmilitary.com/870mcs.htm
12ga is a flat front rimmed caliber,
both of which are detractors to reliable feeding from a box mag... which is even of greater import in a semi/full auto: You cant just rack it a little slower for more positive feeding, it goes fast whether stuff is aligned right or not.
That, and those "newer combat shotguns" are not new, just redressed oldschool shotguns.
What is needed in todays firearm world is a 13ga conefront rimless spec shotgun shell for autoloaders. Or hit the P90 with the GigantoRay and use the spinny mag in 12ga.... warning- it might weigh a good bit more that big
As said around these parts before,
12ga is a flat front rimmed caliber,
both of which are detractors to reliable feeding from a box mag... which is even of greater import in a semi/full auto: You cant just rack it a little slower for more positive feeding, it goes fast whether stuff is aligned right or not.
That, and those "newer combat shotguns" are not new, just redressed oldschool shotguns.
What is needed in todays firearm world is a 13ga conefront rimless spec shotgun shell for autoloaders. Or hit the P90 with the GigantoRay and use the spinny mag in 12ga.... warning- it might weigh a good bit more that big
a good swift pump action with a pistol grip on the pump and away you go
and stabbist is right there ain't that much new under the sun when it comes to shotguns part from a new party frock
2d6+1 averages to 4.5, same as 2d8. The range is narrower, but it's the average that's really important for balance (and it could be argued that a narrower range could be good or bad). Maybe it would be nice if we could tell a gun firing .45ACP from one firing .38, but you have to consider how very much one point of damage represents.
It seems generally agreed that the 9mm parabellum is the quintessential 2d6 bullet. Every 9mm gun in d20 modern deals that amount of damage and I have yet to see someone have a huge problem with it. However, there seems to be some disagreement about the damaging power of the .45ACP, as it compares to the 9mm. It may be true that police, marines and firearms enthusiasts and experts the world over prefer .45ACP (I don't know how true that is, but I hear it a lot), and they may be on to something, but I would suggest that they are not on to enough to elevate the .45ACP to being nigh on indistinguishable from the .44 magnum and .50 AE.
A .45ACP round puts out about 400-600 Joules (as far as I know the most relevant single number for ballistic damage as it takes into account both the mass of the projectile and the velocity), and 9mm rounds tend to put out about 350-600 Joules (550-600 being normal for 9mm parabellum), which makes it pretty obvious why they might be considered to deal reasonably similar amounts of damage. Especially when you compare these to the 2d4 calibers; .32 which lays down about 170J and the .22 which does 70-100J.
Then we get to the 2d8 pistols and the jump is enormous. .44 magnum 1360J, .454 casull 1770J, and .50AE 1920J. The numbers go up by a factor of 4.
Rifles also bear this out. A 5.56mm NATO round from an M16 puts out about 1900J, as does the 7.62mmx39mm fired from the AK-47.
Another point of contention is 7.62 versus .50BMG. No one can argue that .50 BMG isn't amazingly powerful, I've heard stories of people being blown clean in half or having flesh torn from their bodies by a near miss. Here I think it makes a bit more sense to make changes.
The 7.62 NATO has a Joule output of around 3,000, give or take a few hundred. Whereas the .50 BMG drops a staggering 13,000-18,000J, and the 12.7mm is quite similar.
So here's how it breaks down:
2d4=70-170J
2d6-350-600J
2d8=1,300-2,000J
2d10=3,000J
2d12=13,000-18,000J
So 2d6 is about x3 as powerful as 2d4, 2d8 is about x3 as powerful as 2d6, 2d10 is about x1.5 as powerful as 2d8 and 2d12 is about x6 as powerful as 2d10.
Now either this means that the joule outputs on 2d8 and 2d10 are too close together, or that the joule outputs on 2d10 and 2d12 are too far apart. I would tend to believe the former, as 2d10 seems to be the only one that ruins our pattern of tripling for each increase (because if 7.62 NATO were to produce 5,000-6,000J instead the pattern would work just fine).
Oh, and if any of this seems wrong to you I'm getting my numbers from http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am03-e.htm
and http://world.guns.ru/ammo/am02-e.htm
So yeah, M1911 is nice and all, but not quite so deadly as a desert eagle. More practical certainly, but not as powerful.
2d6+1 works out to 8 damage (3.5 per die, plus 1).
So that puts the .45 and .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto right in between a 9x19mm and a .44 Magnum. Sounds about right, doesn't it?
Also, at combat pistol velocities, kinetic energy isn't the dominant factor in terms of wound generation. Pistol cartridges just don't pack enough energy to cause the kind of massive tissue destruction found in rifles. So, they rely on size and bullet construction. A .45 is considerably bigger in diameter than a 9mm, and hollowpoint rounds expand to correspondingly larger sizes for each caliber. Thus, the .45 is more likely to hit major blood vessels, organs, and central nervous system components. Not dramatically more likely, but more likely nonetheless. The additional mass also tends to penetrate farther, meaning a shot from a bad angle will have a better chance of penetrating far enough to hit something vital.
I dont know so much about the Jouliness of the calibers,
but your assessment of the 3:1 & 4:1 energy for die size gain is along the lines of the in depth study here that CyberDave did. I'd call that confirmation by outside evaluation on CyberDaves take on things.
Try looking at making a category for the magnum rifles, for the 375/416/460 mags that put a .308 to shame but dont get anywhere near the power of the 50BMG. In ftlb, the 308 is a 3000 class gun where the 50bmg is 12000, so why not put the 5000 Magnum Rifle class at 2d12 and move the 12000 50BMG class up to 2d20 for the most RAW like simplest take on things.
7.62Nato --> 416w --> 50bmg
3000 --> 5000 --> 12000
2d10 --> 2d12 --> 2d20
Anyway, what you do with the insight you have on the joule progression is up to you & your houserules, but rest easy that your look on things is in line with what others have calculated too.
But figuring damage to a human body and asigning 1 number to the 50BMG is problematic: The 50bmg will blow thru & take 80% of its initial energy with it. It is not a question of how much potential damage can a 50BMG dump into a human body, but how much total potential damage can a 50BMG dump into a target with enough resistance to take it all. You will obviously do much more damage to an elephant with a 50BMG than a monkey, but both would take just 2d12 by RAW.
I shot the same USAS-12. I didn't mind the weight, but it only had around 30 ten round mags through it when I shot it, and I had 2 failures in one ten round mag on full auto (one stove pipe and one mis-feed). In my mind that's a totally unacceptable failure rate, and the USAS-12 is a rather spendy piece of hardware. My buddy in Pueblo county SWAT tells me that these types of failures are pretty common. It's a pity because I love the idea of a full auto shotgun.
Wow, Pueblo must be well-funded to afford that. Remind me never to speed on that leg of the trip south.
Wow, Pueblo must be well-funded to afford that. Remind me never to speed on that leg of the trip south.
Remember, police agencies don't have to spend the big bucks for a transferrable machinegun. They can just buy post-86 stuff for relatively cheap.
Still, seems like they could probably get a decent SPAS or Benelli semi-auto for less, and I haven't heard of those having reliability problems. Maybe the giant drum magazine has intimidation value, but when something gets bad enough for the SWAT to be brought in, are the criminals likely to be intimidated? And would they get a chance to surrender after they saw the guns?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zxeSXdgT9U&feature=related
Huh, I didn't know that belt-feds pulled the round from the belt before firing.
They have to. Otherwise, the pressure inside the cartridge will burst the casing and all that energy will be expended in spraying brass everywhere instead of launching the bullet.
So it has to expand, or is the round squeezed while in the belt?
The pressure generated by the burning powder is more than the cartridge itself can contain. If detonated outside a gun, it will rupture and spray brass everywhere. The belt is just a cloth or sheet-metal contraption to feed ammunition into the gun, and isn't nearly strong enough to contain the pressure of the propellant gasses either.. The cartridge has to be removed from the belt and fed into the chamber before being fired.
A gun barrel confines the gunpowder so it goes bang, not fzzzzz.
In an open-air cookoff (like tossing a bullet in a campfire) the burning gunpowder generates just enough pressure to push the bullet out of the case, then since it isn't confined anymore it just goes fzzzz.
In a gun barrel, you still generate the same pressure, but since the barrel confines the burning powder after the bullet is pushed out of the case, it keeps building pressure, and you get a bang.
If a round cooks of _in the barrel_, it is exactly like pulling the trigger.
The really dangerous thing Johannix was talking about is when the round is partway in the barrel when the powder starts burning. Pressure builds till the bullet leaves, keeps building, but since the round is not completely in the chamber, with the bolt locked, the case is the next thing to break. The back of the case will likely rip off and go speeding off who knows where.
Luckily, since the round did not reach full pressure before the case broke, the back of the case won't have the same force as the bullet would. (but your face is _right_there_)
There is a pressure cap on how hot you can load the 45acp for the 1911, cause in original spec the guns feed ramp & chamber are set up to have a very small part of the brass not supported by steel chamber wall... the only thing holding the full pressure of the shot is the brass case. Although it is at a thick part of the brass case, it is a weakness many guns designed afterward try to avoid.... weakness in name only, since it is sufficient to the task at standard parameters. Lots of smiths & custom shops can work a standard 1911 to take an aftermarket fully supported barrel/chamber
That is also the problem with the .40 Glocks. And since the .40 S&W is a far higher-pressure round than the .45 ACP, and Glocks can fire even when the slide is about 1/32" out of battery, problems do occur. I've personally witnessed one G23 go kaboom at an IDPA match. It was not a pretty sight.
Do you see the same thing with the 10mm? I haven't had much experience with the round as much of mine comes from .45 cal and large magnums.
Do you see the same thing with the 10mm? I haven't had much experience with the round as much of mine comes from .45 cal and large magnums.
I've only seen two 10mm Glocks. One was a G-29, the compact 10mm. It was one of the first ones off the line, and it kicked like a mule. I only saw it during one afternoon shooting session, so I can't say much about it.
The second was a converted, select-fire G-20. Apparently some Class III manufacturer decided he wanted to try making full-auto Glocks for law enforcement, and decided to go with the 10mm round. The gun had 20-round extended magazines, integral compensator ports, a separate foregrip, and an incredible recoil. The thing was anti-aircraft! The first round was on target, the next two were about 45 degrees up in the air. One onlooker dubbed it a 'phonebooth gun'. I.e., if your entire gunfight takes place inside a phone booth, it's the gun to have. Otherwise, you won't hit squat.
I wonder if a 93r-style foregrip would have helped that.
My guess would be no. 10mm Auto is a handfull in any pistol-sized configuration. Making it a machine pistol only makes it worse. Even machine pistols in 9mm and under have control issues.
I hear it is a good match for full-size SMGs though.
I've only seen two 10mm Glocks. One was a G-29, the compact 10mm. It was one of the first ones off the line, and it kicked like a mule. I only saw it during one afternoon shooting session, so I can't say much about it.
The second was a converted, select-fire G-20. Apparently some Class III manufacturer decided he wanted to try making full-auto Glocks for law enforcement, and decided to go with the 10mm round. The gun had 20-round extended magazines, integral compensator ports, a separate foregrip, and an incredible recoil. The thing was anti-aircraft! The first round was on target, the next two were about 45 degrees up in the air. One onlooker dubbed it a 'phonebooth gun'. I.e., if your entire gunfight takes place inside a phone booth, it's the gun to have. Otherwise, you won't hit squat.
Yeah, the only one i've shot was a friend of mine's Kimber that he had converted for 10mm. It sure did kick, though, I didn't really mind since i've been shooting the heavy hitters since I was a kid. I was only interested because the ballistics information that I've seen for 10mm was real close to the .357 magnum, which I like except for that pesky 6 round wheelgun capacity. Meh, I guess I'll just stick with my Glock 21.
Ed, I've heard that as well about the round used in submachine guns. The H&K mp10 is supposed to be pretty bad*ss. Too bad the rounds are so dang expensive
Yeah, the only one i've shot was a friend of mine's Kimber that he had converted for 10mm. It sure did kick, though, I didn't really mind since i've been shooting the heavy hitters since I was a kid. I was only interested because the ballistics information that I've seen for 10mm was real close to the .357 magnum, which I like except for that pesky 6 round wheelgun capacity. Meh, I guess I'll just stick with my Glock 21.
Ed, I've heard that as well about the round used in submachine guns. The H&K mp10 is supposed to be pretty bad*ss. Too bad the rounds are so dang expensive
I've never use a 10mm MP5, but those I know who have, swear by it. If you can't get a real rifle, the MP5/10 is the best of all remaining worlds.
I can see it in a pistol intended for dual-duty against two- and four-legged threats, but as a purely urban self-defense pistol, it's too much for most folks. The .45 ACP works just fine against two-legged threats.
For all that punishment, I'm just not convinced the 10mm is that much of an advantage over the .45 to be justifiable. It's useful if you want the extra penetration against four-legged threats, and still want to carry a semi-auto to deal with two-legged threats, but as a purely antipersonnel gun I don't think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
any way you guys all know its what folks can handle, some big cow horn b*****d's can hack 44 and 50ae but most peasants just want a 9mm. i wouldn't fancy ma chances of hitting squat wi a 10mm at any RoF but i'd give it a damn good go
anyone see that program on the new calibre M4 their testing for Land Warrior,
6. something if i remember correctly
i remember everyone ranting about the 9mm being a dead cartridge on this board a while ago now people are starting to speak out against the 45 i'm getting worried
The real determining factor should be 1) what caliber can you comfortably fire enough to get good, and 2) what caliber can you afford to fire enough to get good. Getting good is the most important thing. A plain-jane lead .38 in the center mass will protect you much better than a super-ninja .50AE hollowpoint in the leg or drywall.
anyone see that program on the new calibre M4 their testing for Land Warrior, 6. something if i remember correctly
6.8mm probably. Meh. The army is complaining about takedown while using semi-AP rounds from short barrels... What did they think would happen?
they want a SMG sized gun,
with small ammo for high capacity,
with great penetration,
yet great takedown
..... but keep it tiny ammo.
What, have these guys never heard of Game Balance? ;)
They need to figure if they want a 200m carbine or a 500m rifle, untill they figure that part out they will never get a gun that is best at everything. Once they admit they dont need to give 500m guns to everyone, they can make a swell carbine/smg caliber AR-variant for 50-200m work... such as 9wmag or work up a new caliber like a '9Carbine (9x33)' that can use existing 5.56 gear with only a barrel change... take existing 9mm pistol slugs and just add 1000fps: 115-124gr at over 2000fps can have good penetration and decent energydump, or the 147gr for more umph out at 200m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LWRC_SRT
Here you go, via Ragitsu in the 5-7 thread...
2d8+d6: .803 gyro
2d20+4: 12mm Ramjet
Hey ed_209a,
Long ago, I played a TSR espionage game called "Top Secret." In that game, there were gyrojet and ramjet guns. I never knew what they were talking about, but I used them in the game because they were so powerful. Do you have any info/backstory/pics of those weapons? I'd be much obliged.
on paper it sounds like a good balance between 5.56's increasing problems with defeating armour and the high recoil of 7.62 at high RoF.
well thats my starter for 10
Long ago, I played a TSR espionage game called "Top Secret." In that game, there were gyrojet and ramjet guns. I never knew what they were talking about, but I used them in the game because they were so powerful. Do you have any info/backstory/pics of those weapons? I'd be much obliged.
TSR before T$R... Good times...
Gyrojet and ramjet bullets use a rocket principle instead of burning gunpowder to fly. Of the two, only the gyrojet has ever been made into a real weapon.
There is a pretty good Wiki article on it. The mini rockets start off slow (Wiki says you can stop one with your hand over the muzzle) but speed up as they fly. They have decent performance once they reach top speed, but were never a really practical weapon.
Ramjet rounds are completely sci-fi for now. A ramjet works like a jet engine, but instead of using a fan to compress the air inside the engine, the engine moving through the air compresses the air inside the engine. Here's another Wiki pageRamjet
If you make a bullet with an hourglass-shaped hole down the center of it, and you coat the back part of the hole with solid rocket fuel, it can act like a ramjet.
If it works right, you would have a bullet that leaves the gun at mach 2, then accelerates to mach 4 or 5.
That is a big if though. If the construction isn't just right, you won't have centered thrust, and the round will spiral off wherever it wants to go. A spinning bullet probably won't stabilize the round enough to counter more than the most minor defects. I think that is why we don't have them now.
Everything breaks down to cost. A .50 BMG rifle is a much cheaper option as a long range weapon system than the cost of developing ramjet rounds for a 30 caliber class rifle. It is even cheaper when you factor in the extra weight of the .50cal rifle and ammo.
This doesn't mean it will always be this way though. Rotary machineguns were a dead end from roughly 1900 until just after WW2. A problem finally appeared that gatling guns solved.
Ramjet and gyrojet ammo might be the same way.
at the moment a 50 cal will make a massive mess out of all soldier armour and mince soft skin vehicles. its cheap reliable and effective.
what on earth would ever need micro rockets to take down.
they're expensive and awkward and time consuming to make.
that and comparatively a ramjet/gyrojet round will never compete with a 30mm auto cannon or something similar.
even on an assault rifle level a 7.62 will give enough punch to pierce virtually all personal armor.
even on an assault rifle level a 7.62 will give enough punch to pierce virtually all personal armor.
Actually, any Level III plate/vest combination will stop 7.62x51mm ball ammo, and a Level IV plate/vest combo will stop .30-'06 M2 armor-piercing ammo.
There really isn't any body armor out there that will stop 5.56mm ball but not 7.62mm ball. Both rounds go right through anything up to Level IIIA, and both rounds are stopped cold by Level III.
my understanding was only the trauma plate stopped the rounds even at level 3 +.
i guess if dragon hide lives up to its rep then thats pretty good but i figure that is still plauged wi problems.
anyhow a rail rifle would be cheaper to produce and use compared to a ram/gyrojet weapon so even compared to other sci fi kit its fubar i just don't see it being economically sound, then again thats based on what we know these days and things change
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3985064809481918933&q=lwrc&total=34&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
what on earth would ever need micro rockets to take down.
they're expensive and awkward and time consuming to make.
that and comparatively a ramjet/gyrojet round will never compete with a 30mm auto cannon or something similar.
You might need to take down a graboid, but not want to have to amend rule four to: Know your target and what is behind it, and behind that, and behind that, and behind that, and behind everything else for about two kilometers. The rockets detonate, correct?
I remember reading something on the box o truth about whether a 5.56 or 7.62 could penetrate three vests and trauma plates, I don't remember exactly what the difference was, anyone remember?
That is assuming of course you use 30mm RocketAmmo to be on par with 30mm cannon fire. The incredibly obvious difference is that any 12 lil girl can shoulder a singleshot 30mm Rocket while there is debate whether the barrel weight or the recoil of 30mm Cannon will crush the lil girl more.
The barrel for the rocketgun is a thinwall while the cannon has to have thick steel pressure containment, and the rocket can use 90% of its burn after it has left the shooter & gun.... if both use XXXgrains of propellant, the rocketgun only has to deal with a minor fraction of that charge while the cannon has to take the whole charge & all that recoil.
That is, a cannon has to propell the 1lb slug to 2500fps while in the gun, but the Rocketgun only has to propell a 1.09lb RA Slug to 100fps in the gun, and then the ammo accellerates itself from 100 to 2500 without recoil on the shooter.
Same can be said of the 10mm RA ammo,
the 200gr RA slug only needs to leave the gun at 100fps while a 10mm pistol has to spit it out at 1000+. But both slugs hit the target at 1000fps.
Or, one can say they are willing to handle standard recoil from their 10mm RA Mag, so they feel standard 10x25mm brass recoil as the 200gr RA slug leaves the gun, but the 10x powerlevel of the rocket should make it hit the target at 3000fps or more. It is the classic deal of the future, standard performance at greatly less recoil & gunweight will also make greatly more performance at standard recoil & gunweight.
For this discussion, I thought we were talking Rocket KE Ammo, not explosive.
my head nearly exploded. RA is cool but will take an age to sort out.
i say an age mankind seems to aim at taking 100 years to achieve stuff at the mo. i wish people would just knuckle down and invent cool stuff an not kack prototypes that they drop after several years.
rail guns for example, scientifically simple, but because our capacitor tech is so archaic it takes a ware houses to store up the juice for 1 round.
so i'm ranting again
The GyroJet on the small end & the Iowa 16" on the big end.
Folks know that the manufaturing machine tollerances are the key to personal RA ammo. Gyrojet was before AppleII computers. The question is not whether we have the ability to manufacture precise tollerance 10mm RA ammo with todays CNC machinery, but how cost effectly can we make it.
The 30mm Airburst & 25mm HE take some serious mill work to make right, and we spend the cash to have that done, whynot spend the relatively wee bit on boring a precision hole for RA ammo.
Would you spend $0.50 a shot for 10mmRA that recoils like a 380acp but hits mooks like a 45-70? Put that in your MAC11 for 1handed 20rnd per second of 45-70 effect
"Even in barrels as short as 305mm, velocities are approximately 731m/sec with muzzle energy of 1,996J, actually greater than that of a standard 7.62x39mm whose muzzle energy is only 1,975J. Fired from a standard 406mm barrel at a nominal velocity of 792m/sec, the 6.8 delivers an energy level of 2,341J. In US government testing at 100m, the average penetration of 45 rounds was 399mm in 10% ordnance gelatin.
After defeating NIJ Level IIIA body armor, the 6.8mm bullet penetrated an average of 178mm. The bullet typically expanded to 11.7mm with approximately 40% weight retention over a 45-round test average."
thats taken from this longer article i've read, which is below.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23839
it seems a pretty good round perfect for what spec ops need apparantly
"We should note that the 6.8mm SPC's ballistic performance is almost identical to that of the 50-year-old British 0.280 cartridge."
i love that as a brit myself its good to see your catching up with our 1945 round that apparantly at the time wasn't good enough for the US army
I think the US needs to get on board with the 6.8mm SPC round as well. The old 3-1 5.56mm argument was not enough "Terminate With Extreme Prejudice" for me. Maybe its cuz I want my baddies to STAY DOWN! when I shoot them.
Or Henry the VIII really has you in a bind.
Doug
The developers reviewed the entire history of intermediate class cartridges, beginning with the 7.92mm German Kurz from the Second World War. The 7.62x39mm was discarded as a candidate, partly because there are no known magazines that will reliably feed the cartridge from a standard M4 lower receiver and also because the cartridge profile is such that an entirely new magazine design would be required.
Colt did make the 7.62x39 AR, as well as Ruger making the Mini30 in 7.62x39.
So it seems buying new magazines is a deal breaker.
The conversion units will be made by Barrett and other manufacturers are already tooling up to produce rifles and carbines in this caliber, as it is not only a very effective anti-personnel round, but should prove to be a very effective cartridge for medium-sized game. Thus, any organization using M16 or M4-type rifle or carbines can convert to 6.8x43mm by purchasing Barrett upper receivers and placing them on existing lower receivers.
Of course, 6.8mm magazines will also be required (see below). Barrett will offer both conversion uppers and full carbines.
<...>
The M468's magazine is externally almost identical to standard M16 magazines, although it is slightly longer and holds only 28 rounds. The magazine is internally different, however. The stiffening grooves on the magazine are shallower than those on M16 magazines to accommodate the larger 6.8mm cartridges.
IDR tried inserting 6.8mm cartridges into several 30-round M16 magazines and was able to load fewer than 10 cartridges in each. Also, the feeding was impaired
ok, why was the 7.62AK bad? Special .30 magazines had to be made for it. Whereas with 6.8 we have to have special 6.8 magazines made for it.
So if the magazine problem isnt actually a problem,
whynot use a 7.62AK existing variant like 220Russian, 6mmPPC or the 6.5 & 7 variants that simply neck the AK brass down a peg for more penetration. Lets just fit the 5.7 Aluminum UberSlug to a x39 brass
If we admit we really only need a 250m gun, then the TCUs (6mmTCU 7mmTCU 30TCU) look good as direct bore change for existing AR15 clones. Or again, put the 5.7UberSlug in x45Nato brass rather than x28FN brass. If the 5.7x28 is almost as good at 5.56x45, then lets see that 5.7FN slug use almost twice the powder pushing it from a x45.
Heck, we already stretched the 9x19 out for the 9wmag, lets just drop the other shoe & stretch it out to a cutoff 223 case- 9x35 SMG (Super Magnum Gahh!) that can drop into rebarreled AR clones. That would be a hot lil number with 150BoatTail out to 200m or 70grDuplex for indoors
oooh, just found this one, 17/22-250... it is out there even by my standards. .17 25gr 4400fps. Lets see that steelcore pen chart ;)
Cool article. I love the british army stuff. I wonder when the US will convert to bullpup configurated weapons. I can't see any reason why not to use one such weapon.
Magazine changes tend to be less intuitive, balance is very butt-heavy (which accentuates muzzle rise during automatic fire), ejection is problematic (you either eject out of the front like the FN F2000, which seems like little more than a recipe for stoppages, or you eject out of one side like the AUG, which screws left-handers), and you generally don't get good trigger characteristics due to the length of the connectors between the trigger and the fire control group parts.
Honestly, I have a thing for the German 7.62. It does the same thing as what everyone raves about the 5.56 doing, except it does it bigger. They still use it in their 7.62 guns, apparently, though I don't know what range it will fragment out to.
You could have a bullpup eject from the bottom, the only problem with that is you then have to find someplace to put the magazine. Alternately, you could probably put a switch on the gun that will change whether it ejects to the left or right, I am sure that it would be possible, just have upward ejection at an angle, and you block off one of the sides with the switch.
Edit: Oh, I blame the lot of you for making me care about such trivial details when picking weapons for characters. Ever since I got chewed out for thinking about taking a Five-seveN I've taken to taking at least a passing interest in whether or not the gun is actually half decent in real life.
Compared to 9mm/.40/.45 anyway.
Really though, unless you are post-apoc, or are dirt poor, the wear isn't a problem as long as you keep a decent maintenance schedule.
If you can afford to feed the picky beast, you can afford to have a gunsmith look at it every 3000 rounds.
I dunno about the F2000 ejection being a problem, I saw a video of a guy sliding six spent cases into the tube, then firing a round, every single one of them came out, along with the new brass from the fired round.
Honestly, I have a thing for the German 7.62. It does the same thing as what everyone raves about the 5.56 doing, except it does it bigger. They still use it in their 7.62 guns, apparently, though I don't know what range it will fragment out to.
You could have a bullpup eject from the bottom, the only problem with that is you then have to find someplace to put the magazine. Alternately, you could probably put a switch on the gun that will change whether it ejects to the left or right, I am sure that it would be possible, just have upward ejection at an angle, and you block off one of the sides with the switch.
I haven't heard anything bad about the F2000 ejection of spent shells.
Are you thinking of the 7.92x57mm Mauser? I haven't heard of a German 7.62mm?
I don't think it could be very hard to switch the ejection port from right to left (or vice-versa). Your idea sounds about right.
I do see that muzzle climb could be a problem. But isn't an infantryman supposed to fire semiautomatic only?
If you can afford to feed the picky beast, you can afford to have a gunsmith look at it every 3000 rounds
If the PDC for a car includes all Tires, Oilchanges, Timingbelts, Brakes... Gas?
Wouldnt the PDC for a pistol include the 10000rnd Sping & Pin replacement schedule?
I think the thing is to first have your PC buy 10000 rnd of ammo,
then not worry about the wear on the gun till you shoot half of it up.
As such, how much ammo per adventure is your PC shooting, 25-50? You will be trading that gun in due to upgrades by leveling long before wear becomes a factor.
Again I am with Ed,
They either made the gun beefy enough or they had lives 1/2 to 1/5th that of 9/45. A gun made for 10 will usually do better than offering an existing 9/45 in a 10 variant... even the Grizzly steroid 1911 demonstrates what you have to do to a standard pistol to take hotter calibers, More metal everywhere.
For gaming,
I would like to offer the PC overclocked guns.... 45wmag in a standard 1911.
Just give it a 500rnd life, count each shot, and roll #/5 % to see if the gun detonates that shot. 2d6 5'r RefDC12 ShooterNo-save. Motivates them to replace the gun every 3 or 4 magazines.
We might have to change the damage 5.56 does, to fit it. I think it would work a lot better if we were working off the Sqrl101 damages, as those give a better range for damage.
I don't like the +1 damage simply because were it not for fragmenting, the 5.56 would do nowhere near the same amount of damage. It seems like we shouldn't have to kneecap the bigger rounds simply because the makers were afraid of making the .50 worth something. Don't want to get killed by it? To quote Razoreface: Try getting shot less.
it would have been nice to have the damage charts give numbers for Medium and Total, because of soo many bigger weapons getting Overpenetration & enegrgy dump problems. This is modeled by how we dont tie dead bodies to the hulls of our APCs for supplemental armor: Bodies hardly slow slugs bigger than 50BMG down at all.... but they do solve stability & boyancy issues when swimming the vehicle cross lakes
Yeah,
it would have been nice to have the damage charts give numbers for Medium and Total, because of soo many bigger weapons getting Overpenetration & enegrgy dump problems. This is modeled by how we dont tie dead bodies to the hulls of our APCs for supplemental armor: Bodies hardly slow slugs bigger than 50BMG down at all.... but they do solve stability & boyancy issues when swimming the vehicle cross lakes
You, sir, are one sick puppy.
I salute you.
"... And Knowing is half the battle"
IF I only use bodies I find that are already dead,
I dont kill nobody,
That means I'm not evil.... right?
And because the whole team will benefit from my actions, that makes it kinda for a greater good.
For some reason my GM didnt see that line of arguement my Paladin was pushing as how it wasnt evil. My paladin was just thinking outside the box.
It takes an engineering mind to spot the loss of Rigor in a Load Bearing Corpse will lead structural compromise. LBC's need contstant rotation with short duty cycle.
"... And Knowing is half the battle"
IF I only use bodies I find that are already dead,
I dont kill nobody,
That means I'm not evil.... right?
And because the whole team will benefit from my actions, that makes it kinda for a greater good.
For some reason my GM didnt see that line of arguement my Paladin was pushing as how it wasnt evil. My paladin was just thinking outside the pine box.
Fixed.
Edit: Me feels stupid. :P
I so wanna game with you back
sorry...Don't we all? ;)
I know we talked about guns somewhere up there...
Ahhh.
This will light a fire under Belly:
Whats the deal with 6.8?
Why not 6.5 or 7?
Lets see ...
I know we talked about guns somewhere up there...
Ahhh.
This will light a fire under Belly:
Whats the deal with 6.8?
Why not 6.5 or 7?
you tellin me i should ask for this thread to be locked? ;) lol
How do we reconsile the boasting of the required tumbling & frangitude of a slug, yet sing the accolaides of how it penetrates bodyarmor.
It seems that way :evillaugh
How do we reconsile the boasting of the required tumbling & frangitude of a slug, yet sing the accolaides of how it penetrates bodyarmor.
That's pretty common these days. The slug rips through the hard material of the armor, then destabilizes in the fluid environment of the body and tumbles/fragments. You just have to have the proper bullet construction.
Why, despite the fact that both the H&K MP7 and the FN P90 are both PDWs designed with the same function in mind, and use very similar ammo, do they have such different stats in the Weapon Locker book?
Hey, I got a good one:
Why, despite the fact that both the H&K MP7 and the FN P90 are both PDWs designed with the same function in mind, and use very similar ammo, do they have such different stats in the Weapon Locker book?
Um, maybe the guys at FN paid off WOTC?
Or maybe they felt it increased 'game balance' between manufacturers, since almost all of the HK roller-locked guns are automatically masterwork? (MP5 series, G3/SG-1, MSG-90, PSG-1)
Don't get me wrong, the MP5 is a great gun, but why does the 9mm variant get auto-masterwork, while the 5.56mm and 7.62mm variants (HK-33 and G-3) don't?
Hmm... what would happen if they put a few inches of ballistics gelatin on the outside of body armor? The 5.56 usually fragments within the first few inches, so the armor might catch it.
So instead of Dragon Hide armor we need to be investigating MarshmallowPeep Hide?
First tumble the slug, then stop it. Egad, Brilliant in its simplicity.... and tastey too.
How are we gonna stop the troops from eating their armor?
But more importantly, what if it rains?
This is gonna need a little more work at the theory level before we try to raise some startup capitol.... Lets get a gov research grant to do the feasibility study. If DOD wont fund us, maybe we can get soem NEA money by calling it art in the medium of sugar.
Mission: Operation Sweet Stuff
"We encountered the enemy, sir, and it was a hard fought battle. At first the small arms and IED's were having no effect on our guys and then the locals broke out the flamethrowers. We were pelted by children using Graham Crackers and there was an explosion at a Chocolate factory across the street. Turns out there really WAS a milk factory that received collateral damage from the fighting. It dissolved into some intense skirmishing and a little school girl ran off with Johnson's S'Mores covered leg. I'd tell you more but I'm feeling the 'shakes'. Anybody got a candybar or somepin'?
Excerpts from the Insane War College and Barnum Clown School,
Doug
Backspin Barrel
Weapon Gadget, PDC +1
Knowlege Tactics DC15 to negate target cover.
"This baby not only shoots around corners, it chases them down the stairwell."
Hows about
Backspin Firearm Barrel
Weapon Gadget, PDC +1
Must use Backspin Ammo (Plated Ball)
Max Range 5 RI
Knowlege Tactics DC15 to negate target cover at RI 3 through 5.
a miniaturized Flak 88
Hmm....
*looks up the gadget section in d20 Future*
What size would a Flak88 be?
*remembers that the gadget system sucks*
Damnit!
But still. A portable miniaturized Flak88 would make a good MBR. Then the yanks would stop whining about not stopping people with their 5.56mm. I guess 88mm (although miniaturized) would stop people pretty well, huh?
Anyway, back on track.
Which would also solve the problem of Medium guns getting more deadly, larger people would have more hit points.