d20 Modern: Hardcore - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

d20 Modern: Hardcore

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ghosttown
Mar 19, 2008 17:37:35 First I'd like to welcome myself back here, its been about five years since I posted on these forums. Hello everyone. Now to the point:

I've never been very happy with the hitpoint system, especially when it comes to describing the pain I am inflicting on my PCs. In other words I'm tired of players thinking they are going to be OK running into machinegun fire. At this point they know better than to roleplay as such but I guess I just want to keep them on their toes a little more. I've talked it over with them and they seem receptive to the idea but I would like to run it by someone else.

I plan on running a low powered and slightly more realistic campaign, something Cthulhu-esque or more specifically John Dies at the End(1). and after looking through various HP type systems (vitality points etc.) I've decided to take a note from my old GURPS roots and assign hitpoints based on my PC's constitution score+modifier. For instance a PC with 15(+2) constitution would have 17 hitpoints at level one. At each levelup they would gain one more hitpoint, ranks in toughness conferring 2 extra hitpoints.

Is this too harsh? Has anyone done something similar?

(1) http://www.johndiesattheend.com/
#2
eldermount
Mar 19, 2008 18:27:16 I'm assuming that you're familiar how the Massive Damage Threshold system works in D20 Modern as opposed to D&D, and haven't found that suitable. (Though, it typically works remarkably well from keeping most people from charging into machine gun fire.)

The D20 version of Call of Cthulu sets the Massive Damage Threshold to 10. Failed save means death.

I think that a potential problem with your system is that hit dice are meant to be part of whole makeup of a character class. Doing away with it potentially nerfs some of the combat oriented classes.
#3
nemafow
Mar 19, 2008 22:10:39 I loved that book (john dies at the end) so I have a feeling your players will love your campaign.

With that aside I can understand where your coming from, I always think the rules aren't very dangerous all the time and it does get frustrating (sometimes) to try and portray danger using the ingame mechanics. I guess that really does boil down to the roleplaying aspect and if your players are playing in character, then it would make it so much easier for the GM. And no custom rules to boot.
#4
TheRealOrion
Mar 19, 2008 23:03:47 How about the Condition Monitor system in Shadowrun or True20? Instead of just losing hit points, when you take a hit, you get penalties. It means that PCs know that if they take damage, they're not just nearer death, they're less able to fend it off. S'a good system. Very gritty.
#5
ghosttown
Mar 20, 2008 13:32:05 The Condition Monitor System sounds interesting so I'll have to check it out.

@Eldermount, I was worried about the hit dice breaking the balance of the class especially because this is not going to be a combat intensive game. Maybe something more like the normal system to determine hitpoints (total hit dice+con modifier) and then add in the total value for constitution. This would lead to slightly higher numbers and a little more survivability.

To clairify: Alvin has a d8 hit die and a constitution score of 14 so his modifier is 2. 8+14+2=24hp. Remembering that classes that should be tougher also have ways of midigating damage and cheaper access to feats to improve survivability I don't think this will make the Tough hero feel like he has been left out in terms of class ability.

Of course this will all come down to how my players feel about it, but they are pretty excited about a John Dies at the End game so I'm pretty sure they would agree to play with just about any rules

Edit: In regard to roleplaying I have two very seasoned roleplayers in my group and two rather unexperienced people. I've never run a game with them before but my group of friends in the past has all played in each others games so from past experience I've seen them do some rather game-breaking things (rather than playing IN a world they seem to want to dominate it) that would just not work in the scenarios I have picked out. I WANT them to be afraid, and sadly this seems to be very unnatural for people new to the experience.

Further Edit: I know this gives a lot of HP at the start but I already tend to start my PCs at level 2 or 3 to avoid the awfully cliché "There are rats in my basement! Help!" Type adventures which work especially poorly in a modern campaign. I like to throw them in head first.
#6
winternova
Mar 20, 2008 17:24:25 I like a lethal system. Strikes me that a guy with six out of sixty hit points won't be running around nearly as enthusiastically as when he was fresh.

Only issue I have with condition track-style systems are that they're usually very rules-heavy. Kinda bulky.

Idea I thought of implementing was to change the massive damage threshold to 10 + constitution modifier, and changing the effect.

Anytime a target saves vs massive damage, they're shaken for one round.

When the target fails the massive damage save by less than five, he suffers a -4 to strength, dexterity, and constitution until healed, via the treat injury skill, or other source.

When the target fails by five or greater, he's reduced to -1 HP, and is dying.

I monkeyed with the idea for awhile, but ultimately scrapped it.
#7
TheRealOrion
Mar 20, 2008 18:04:15 Once you remove HPs from the game and try to install a Condition Monitor/Condition Track, you end up having a ripple effect on the rest of the game because so many things are based on HPs. The simplest application to a d20 game is to create HPs "thresholds" at intervals in your total. When you arrive at 1/2 of your HPs, you take a penalty, something like being shaken, at 1/4 you take another penalty, and so on. You can divide it up any way you like, but you basically need to have your thressholds worked out as part of creating characters (and villains). It looks like 4e will be doing something like this with being "bloodied," but that make you vulnerable to certain effects, not just take automatic damage. Could be interesting.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ghosttown Mar 19, 2008 17:37:35	First I'd like to welcome myself back here, its been about five years since I posted on these forums. Hello everyone. Now to the point: I've never been very happy with the hitpoint system, especially when it comes to describing the pain I am inflicting on my PCs. In other words I'm tired of players thinking they are going to be OK running into machinegun fire. At this point they know better than to roleplay as such but I guess I just want to keep them on their toes a little more. I've talked it over with them and they seem receptive to the idea but I would like to run it by someone else. I plan on running a low powered and slightly more realistic campaign, something Cthulhu-esque or more specifically John Dies at the End(1). and after looking through various HP type systems (vitality points etc.) I've decided to take a note from my old GURPS roots and assign hitpoints based on my PC's constitution score+modifier. For instance a PC with 15(+2) constitution would have 17 hitpoints at level one. At each levelup they would gain one more hitpoint, ranks in toughness conferring 2 extra hitpoints. Is this too harsh? Has anyone done something similar? (1) http://www.johndiesattheend.com/
#2 eldermount Mar 19, 2008 18:27:16	I'm assuming that you're familiar how the Massive Damage Threshold system works in D20 Modern as opposed to D&D, and haven't found that suitable. (Though, it typically works remarkably well from keeping most people from charging into machine gun fire.) The D20 version of Call of Cthulu sets the Massive Damage Threshold to 10. Failed save means death. I think that a potential problem with your system is that hit dice are meant to be part of whole makeup of a character class. Doing away with it potentially nerfs some of the combat oriented classes.
#3 nemafow Mar 19, 2008 22:10:39	I loved that book (john dies at the end) so I have a feeling your players will love your campaign. With that aside I can understand where your coming from, I always think the rules aren't very dangerous all the time and it does get frustrating (sometimes) to try and portray danger using the ingame mechanics. I guess that really does boil down to the roleplaying aspect and if your players are playing in character, then it would make it so much easier for the GM. And no custom rules to boot.
#4 TheRealOrion Mar 19, 2008 23:03:47	How about the Condition Monitor system in Shadowrun or True20? Instead of just losing hit points, when you take a hit, you get penalties. It means that PCs know that if they take damage, they're not just nearer death, they're less able to fend it off. S'a good system. Very gritty.
#5 ghosttown Mar 20, 2008 13:32:05	The Condition Monitor System sounds interesting so I'll have to check it out. @Eldermount, I was worried about the hit dice breaking the balance of the class especially because this is not going to be a combat intensive game. Maybe something more like the normal system to determine hitpoints (total hit dice+con modifier) and then add in the total value for constitution. This would lead to slightly higher numbers and a little more survivability. To clairify: Alvin has a d8 hit die and a constitution score of 14 so his modifier is 2. 8+14+2=24hp. Remembering that classes that should be tougher also have ways of midigating damage and cheaper access to feats to improve survivability I don't think this will make the Tough hero feel like he has been left out in terms of class ability. Of course this will all come down to how my players feel about it, but they are pretty excited about a John Dies at the End game so I'm pretty sure they would agree to play with just about any rules Edit: In regard to roleplaying I have two very seasoned roleplayers in my group and two rather unexperienced people. I've never run a game with them before but my group of friends in the past has all played in each others games so from past experience I've seen them do some rather game-breaking things (rather than playing IN a world they seem to want to dominate it) that would just not work in the scenarios I have picked out. I WANT them to be afraid, and sadly this seems to be very unnatural for people new to the experience. Further Edit: I know this gives a lot of HP at the start but I already tend to start my PCs at level 2 or 3 to avoid the awfully cliché "There are rats in my basement! Help!" Type adventures which work especially poorly in a modern campaign. I like to throw them in head first.
#6 winternova Mar 20, 2008 17:24:25	I like a lethal system. Strikes me that a guy with six out of sixty hit points won't be running around nearly as enthusiastically as when he was fresh. Only issue I have with condition track-style systems are that they're usually very rules-heavy. Kinda bulky. Idea I thought of implementing was to change the massive damage threshold to 10 + constitution modifier, and changing the effect. Anytime a target saves vs massive damage, they're shaken for one round. When the target fails the massive damage save by less than five, he suffers a -4 to strength, dexterity, and constitution until healed, via the treat injury skill, or other source. When the target fails by five or greater, he's reduced to -1 HP, and is dying. I monkeyed with the idea for awhile, but ultimately scrapped it.
#7 TheRealOrion Mar 20, 2008 18:04:15	Once you remove HPs from the game and try to install a Condition Monitor/Condition Track, you end up having a ripple effect on the rest of the game because so many things are based on HPs. The simplest application to a d20 game is to create HPs "thresholds" at intervals in your total. When you arrive at 1/2 of your HPs, you take a penalty, something like being shaken, at 1/4 you take another penalty, and so on. You can divide it up any way you like, but you basically need to have your thressholds worked out as part of creating characters (and villains). It looks like 4e will be doing something like this with being "bloodied," but that make you vulnerable to certain effects, not just take automatic damage. Could be interesting.