Daredevil Damage Threshold? Come on... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Daredevil Damage Threshold? Come on...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
tema69
Aug 22, 2008 15:42:33 Hey guys,

What's up with the Daredevil's Level Ten ability?

Damage Threshold
A 10th-level Daredevil increases his or her massive damage threshold by 3 points. This increase stacks with the increase provided by the Improved Damage Threshold feat.
#2
Master_Vega
Aug 23, 2008 12:40:17 You'd have to shift other abilities around, and maybe make a new capstone ability, but it could be neat to have a Daredevil's Damage Threshold increase by a number equal to half his Daredevil level (and thus +5 at level 10).

I haven't looked at the class recently, though, so I'm not aware of how the Daredevil is on the power scale.
#3
tema69
Aug 24, 2008 6:52:33 I was considering a level 2 or 4 ability that would give an increase by half the Daredevil Class level. I think that'd be fair, considering that it isn't very powerfull, combat wise.
#4
Master_Vega
Aug 24, 2008 11:55:24 You mean the MAS thing as a 2 or 4-level ability, or something else?
#5
tema69
Aug 24, 2008 12:05:36 Yes, I should have specified that.

Instead of Nip-Up, I'd give the Daredevil an ability that increased his MAS by 1/2 his Class Level.

And then, the Daredevil would need a level 10 ability.

At BrilliantGameologist, TheRealOrion proposed
Some kind of crazy-ass bonus to Reflex or Fortitude saves then (like +20)? A once-per-day thing, or an Action Point thing. That means you're basically automatically winning the save, unless it's a massive DC, in which case you still have a damn good chance of passing.

I like that idea, although I was thinking if a 10th level Daredevil used an action point, he should roll a d20, and on a roll of 20, the action point isn't lost (that is, it isn't used/removed from the Action Point pool, but the character gets the normal benefits).
But I actually prefer Orion's idea for the level 10 ability.
#6
Master_Vega
Aug 24, 2008 12:34:39 That could be a neat capstone. It'd certainly make them more survivable...

Should it actually be +20, though? I think +15 would suffice... +20 just seems like too much to me, but maybe that's just knee-jerk...
#7
tema69
Aug 24, 2008 15:14:39 I don't think that it matters if it is +20 or +15 in a normal d20 Modern game. MAS and Autofire saves are always DC 15, and it rarely goes above DC 25-30. But for my game, I'd insist that it should be +20, because we use a scaling MAS save (DC equal to damage taken), so +20 would be more useful and represent that I just walked out of a vehicle that crashed over a bridge and fell 300 feet down -feel.
#8
Master_Vega
Aug 25, 2008 10:31:14 Yeah, then I suppose +20 is a good idea. :P

Hope that fix works for you.
#9
faghter_hero
Aug 25, 2008 13:03:39 Just once I'd like to see a Daredevil crash a helicopter into a tanker full of gasoline and walk out laughing but on fire.

Several different ideas here:
1/day, spend 2 Action Points to ignore all damage from a single source. (Or transfer damage to armor and clothing instead.)

Failed saves against lethal damage reduce HP total to 0 instead.

Fast Healing.

1/day, delay all damage for 1 round.
#10
tema69
Aug 25, 2008 13:06:45 That's some good ideas, although the latter is already included. I really think we should make a Daredevil remake.

Edit: @FaghterHero: Perhaps 2 Action Points to ignore all damage from a single source is slightly powerful. I say, up the APoints cost, or restrict it to "with the GM's approval", because I know PCs who'd use it to get hit by a intercontinental missile and walk away. Perhaps it could be some kind of Indiana Jones -style ability, where the GM and the PC'd had to work out some crazy plan to escape or avoid damage (such as using a life raft to jump out of an airplane)...
#11
magusblack
Aug 29, 2008 8:14:45 You keep the Improved Damage Threshold effect and add the ability to spend an action point to automatically succeed on a single Saving Throw.

You could call it "Devil's Luck".
#12
tema69
Aug 29, 2008 10:48:20 This was also suggested by Psychic Robot over at BG. Instead of rewriting why I'd be against an AutoSuccess, let me quote the discussion:
Why not make it an auto-success? It's kind of lame to give him a +20 bonus when you could just say, "Once per day, you can spend an action point to succeed automatically on a Reflex or Fortitude save."

Response by myself:
Because sometimes, you need to succeed a Fortitude save DC 62, and then, you just kinda die, no matter what.
In my game, getting shot with a shotgun in the face at point blank would trigger a MAS save with a DC around 40. That can be succeeded with the +20.
But then, if you're shot with a 50mm autocannon in the face at point blank, it would trigger a MAS save with a DC around 60. That can't be succeeded with a +20 bonus.

But in Vanilla d20 Modern where the DCs rarely exceed 30, I see no problem in having an autosuccess... Except that AUTOSUCCESS per definition is overpowered.

Response by Orion:
Basically, what Tema69 said. With a +20 (or whatever), it's effectively an auto pass but in circumstances of ridiculous DCs, like "You get stepped on by Galactus" or "A 20-story building falls on you," that same +20 doesn't count for much. It's a way to make the bonus keep you from failing normal saves, but keeping you from being able to entirely avoid damage from truly ridiculous events. As Tema says, in regular old d20M, the +20 is essentially an instant save, but if you're playing something more F/Xish, like a high-magic or a superhero game, then you want to take into account ludicrous-level effects. I work on a superhero game, so I try to think about scaling.

I hope you understand what I mean.
#13
Master_Vega
Aug 29, 2008 12:03:27 Not to go off topic, but what is BG?

As for the damage-preventing ability. I'd say that, if the attack would normally reduce them to -10hp in one shot, it instead reduces them to 0hp.

Your ICBM survivor isn't walking away unscathed anymore. :P
#14
tema69
Aug 30, 2008 6:06:21 BG is BrilliantGameologist, where a lot of us have moved over since the reshuffle of the d20 Modern Boards.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=30.0

I can see a Damage Preventing ability work well in conjunction with what the other Daredevil abilities. He has an ability that allows him to delay damage for a number of rounds. That would work.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 tema69 Aug 22, 2008 15:42:33	Hey guys, What's up with the Daredevil's Level Ten ability? Damage Threshold A 10th-level Daredevil increases his or her massive damage threshold by 3 points. This increase stacks with the increase provided by the Improved Damage Threshold feat.
#2 Master_Vega Aug 23, 2008 12:40:17	You'd have to shift other abilities around, and maybe make a new capstone ability, but it could be neat to have a Daredevil's Damage Threshold increase by a number equal to half his Daredevil level (and thus +5 at level 10). I haven't looked at the class recently, though, so I'm not aware of how the Daredevil is on the power scale.
#3 tema69 Aug 24, 2008 6:52:33	I was considering a level 2 or 4 ability that would give an increase by half the Daredevil Class level. I think that'd be fair, considering that it isn't very powerfull, combat wise.
#4 Master_Vega Aug 24, 2008 11:55:24	You mean the MAS thing as a 2 or 4-level ability, or something else?
#5 tema69 Aug 24, 2008 12:05:36	Yes, I should have specified that. Instead of Nip-Up, I'd give the Daredevil an ability that increased his MAS by 1/2 his Class Level. And then, the Daredevil would need a level 10 ability. At BrilliantGameologist, TheRealOrion proposed Some kind of crazy-ass bonus to Reflex or Fortitude saves then (like +20)? A once-per-day thing, or an Action Point thing. That means you're basically automatically winning the save, unless it's a massive DC, in which case you still have a damn good chance of passing. I like that idea, although I was thinking if a 10th level Daredevil used an action point, he should roll a d20, and on a roll of 20, the action point isn't lost (that is, it isn't used/removed from the Action Point pool, but the character gets the normal benefits). But I actually prefer Orion's idea for the level 10 ability.
#6 Master_Vega Aug 24, 2008 12:34:39	That could be a neat capstone. It'd certainly make them more survivable... Should it actually be +20, though? I think +15 would suffice... +20 just seems like too much to me, but maybe that's just knee-jerk...
#7 tema69 Aug 24, 2008 15:14:39	I don't think that it matters if it is +20 or +15 in a normal d20 Modern game. MAS and Autofire saves are always DC 15, and it rarely goes above DC 25-30. But for my game, I'd insist that it should be +20, because we use a scaling MAS save (DC equal to damage taken), so +20 would be more useful and represent that I just walked out of a vehicle that crashed over a bridge and fell 300 feet down -feel.
#8 Master_Vega Aug 25, 2008 10:31:14	Yeah, then I suppose +20 is a good idea. :P Hope that fix works for you.
#9 faghter_hero Aug 25, 2008 13:03:39	Just once I'd like to see a Daredevil crash a helicopter into a tanker full of gasoline and walk out laughing but on fire. Several different ideas here: 1/day, spend 2 Action Points to ignore all damage from a single source. (Or transfer damage to armor and clothing instead.) Failed saves against lethal damage reduce HP total to 0 instead. Fast Healing. 1/day, delay all damage for 1 round.
#10 tema69 Aug 25, 2008 13:06:45	That's some good ideas, although the latter is already included. I really think we should make a Daredevil remake. Edit: @FaghterHero: Perhaps 2 Action Points to ignore all damage from a single source is slightly powerful. I say, up the APoints cost, or restrict it to "with the GM's approval", because I know PCs who'd use it to get hit by a intercontinental missile and walk away. Perhaps it could be some kind of Indiana Jones -style ability, where the GM and the PC'd had to work out some crazy plan to escape or avoid damage (such as using a life raft to jump out of an airplane)...
#11 magusblack Aug 29, 2008 8:14:45	You keep the Improved Damage Threshold effect and add the ability to spend an action point to automatically succeed on a single Saving Throw. You could call it "Devil's Luck".
#12 tema69 Aug 29, 2008 10:48:20	This was also suggested by Psychic Robot over at BG. Instead of rewriting why I'd be against an AutoSuccess, let me quote the discussion: Why not make it an auto-success? It's kind of lame to give him a +20 bonus when you could just say, "Once per day, you can spend an action point to succeed automatically on a Reflex or Fortitude save." Response by myself: Because sometimes, you need to succeed a Fortitude save DC 62, and then, you just kinda die, no matter what. In my game, getting shot with a shotgun in the face at point blank would trigger a MAS save with a DC around 40. That can be succeeded with the +20. But then, if you're shot with a 50mm autocannon in the face at point blank, it would trigger a MAS save with a DC around 60. That can't be succeeded with a +20 bonus. But in Vanilla d20 Modern where the DCs rarely exceed 30, I see no problem in having an autosuccess... Except that AUTOSUCCESS per definition is overpowered. Response by Orion: Basically, what Tema69 said. With a +20 (or whatever), it's effectively an auto pass but in circumstances of ridiculous DCs, like "You get stepped on by Galactus" or "A 20-story building falls on you," that same +20 doesn't count for much. It's a way to make the bonus keep you from failing normal saves, but keeping you from being able to entirely avoid damage from truly ridiculous events. As Tema says, in regular old d20M, the +20 is essentially an instant save, but if you're playing something more F/Xish, like a high-magic or a superhero game, then you want to take into account ludicrous-level effects. I work on a superhero game, so I try to think about scaling. I hope you understand what I mean.
#13 Master_Vega Aug 29, 2008 12:03:27	Not to go off topic, but what is BG? As for the damage-preventing ability. I'd say that, if the attack would normally reduce them to -10hp in one shot, it instead reduces them to 0hp. Your ICBM survivor isn't walking away unscathed anymore. :P
#14 tema69 Aug 30, 2008 6:06:21	BG is BrilliantGameologist, where a lot of us have moved over since the reshuffle of the d20 Modern Boards. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=30.0 I can see a Damage Preventing ability work well in conjunction with what the other Daredevil abilities. He has an ability that allows him to delay damage for a number of rounds. That would work.