Diplomacy: duration? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Diplomacy: duration?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
TheRealOrion
Apr 13, 2009 16:21:47 Given how powerful Diplomacy can potentially be, especially in a superhero game (which is what I run), I thought it might be worth throwing a duration on it. Has this been addressed anywhere? Anyone have an ideas about how to adjudicate it? Your thoughts would be welcome.
#2
AnimeSniper
Apr 13, 2009 19:31:34 Maybe roll a dice a d20 for the number of rounds that the party has to successfully negotiate via Diplomacy and another dice for the number of days it takes for the party say during a diplomatic team journey to negotiate a treaty will take possibly d20 again....
#3
schizoveen
Apr 14, 2009 2:56:35 I'v you would have some examples of play, it would be easier to come up with something.
For now i think diplomacy is better handled in encounters. If the players would have encountered a NPC before you could give them a +5 on their check as things would be easier. Normally i try to chop a diplomatic encounter into pieces and let them roll for multiple aspects of the conversation. The duration would then be the full encounter.

If the NPC is traveling with the players then they have to roll every 24 hours. a good night sleep changes moods of NPC's and let's them rethink conversations and opinions.
#4
DwarfFighter
Apr 14, 2009 6:00:15 Diplomacy: It's not a magical spell, you know. It's not some sort of mystical effect like Charm that overrides the characters actual disposition. It actually changes it. As such the effect is permanent in that it is altered by the same factors that contributed to the subject's initial disposition.

Also, a changed disposition does not put the subject in a state of blissful euphoria. He most certainly retains control of his senses. Even if he becomes friendly to the PCs that is quickly changed depending on how subsequent PC behaviour. The subject won't stay friendly for long if the PCs start attacking him or working against him.

Unless the PCs somehown manage to change his driving motivation he'll likely end up in opposition to them again: If his ambition is to take over the world and the PCs are his enemies because they try to stop him, well... That's bound to repeat.

-DF
#5
TheRealOrion
Apr 14, 2009 13:36:24 Okay, we got some good ideas going. Great. What I'm thinking is that basically, Diplomacy lasts until the subject has reason to believe that the speaker is lying or won't make-good on their claims. So if you're honest and truthful, and you actually do what you claim you're going to do, then it could last forever, as in a politician who makes public speeches all the time. But if you lie through your teeth and immediately stab people in the back, then they'll wise up pretty fast. On that note, if and when you do give someone reason to believe you're not being truthful (or etc.), then they have to make a fresh roll to convince you again, and the roll takes a cumulative -10 circumstance penalty. There's only so long to can lie to people before they wise up.

How's that strike you?
#6
backstabbist
Apr 14, 2009 13:40:30
Diplomacy lasts until the subject has reason to believe that the speaker is lying or won't make-good on their claims.

Duration: Until Dispelled, by mundane or magic means

A great deal of Negotiation & Diplomacy went into the GenHague accords
and they are still in play,
and France hasnt asked for Louisiana back yet
#7
TheRealOrion
Apr 14, 2009 15:35:51 I wouldn't think it would even be the kind of thing you could "dispell." If it's not a magical effect, magic can't "cancel" it. It could only create a magical effect that countered it. So to counter-act a Fanatic, you could cast a Charm spell, but it wouldn't "cure" someone of their fanaticism.
#8
DwarfFighter
Apr 14, 2009 18:04:40 The Diplomacy rules have two basic functions: It's party vs. party in an opposed roll to win favour with a third party, and it's one party trying to change the attitude of another.

What lacking is, among other things, a mechanic for adjusting a the subject's attitude towards someone other than yourself. An example sowing doubt and distrust among the town mayor's supporters to change their attitude towards him.

-DF
#9
TheRealOrion
Apr 14, 2009 19:43:24 I'm sorry, I don't see how that addresses my question.
#10
DwarfFighter
Apr 15, 2009 5:11:23 You were talking of public speakers and I mentally jumped ahead to the matter of public opinion as an attitude towards the character. Opinion-makers such as political commentators, news networks and as well as friends and rivals all work to modify public opinion on you behalf.

With a mechanic for this kind of "lobbying" you can adjudicate the effect of potential attitute-changing events. If the PCs get arrested on drug charges a news agency can put a spin on it to swing public opinion against them.

-DF
#11
backstabbist
Apr 15, 2009 9:46:11 uh.... and regarding duration?
#12
TheRealOrion
Apr 15, 2009 10:57:47 Yeah, that's where I get lost, Dwarf. I mean, I appreciate the free-form brain-storming for what it is, but I had kind of a specific question.

That said, this whole thing has ended up "blossoming" (or exploding) into a whole mess of questions about Diplomacy. I might start a fresh thread about it.
#13
DwarfFighter
Apr 16, 2009 7:29:02 I may not have been clear in my initial reply, so here goes:

I don't think it's appropriate to introduce a game mechanic for duration an attitude change in terms of game time, i.e. hours or days based.

Instead, the NPC's attitude should change based on story events, typically the PCs actions as percieved by the NPC but also other events outside their direct control.

Applying a cumulative penalty to subsequent attempts makes sense, but it seems kind of a cop-out.

The thing I don't like about it is that the PCs initially change the NPC's attitude, presumably by appealing to his better qualities or insisting that they are better off as friends, and then they do just the opposite bu, say, destroying the Evil Mastermind's super-weapon.

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" It seems reasonable that the PCs either find a way to exploit the Evil Mastermind's distrust of them (reverse psychology?) (allowing a fresh Diplomacy check) or they simply won't get an attempt at all.

After all, by default Diplomacy isn't a "try again" skill.

-DF
#14
TheRealOrion
Apr 16, 2009 13:46:55 I see your point now, and after thinking it through and getting a wide variety of advice, I totally agree. Diplomacy is an actual attitude change, not a magical effect (as you say), nor is it necessary the art of bamboozling people. It's the product of discussion, which is partly why the skill appeals to me. So I've instantiated exactly the rule you're talking about: the results of the check stand until the subject(s) have reason to change their mind.

Thanks for the input! Very much appreciated.
#15
backstabbist
Apr 16, 2009 14:42:47
the results of the check stand until the subject(s) have reason to change their mind

+1
#16
DwarfFighter
Apr 17, 2009 6:04:45 Well, glad I could be of help for once.

For further discussion of the social skills, this appears to be an appropriate thread:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1177394

-DF

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheRealOrion Apr 13, 2009 16:21:47	Given how powerful Diplomacy can potentially be, especially in a superhero game (which is what I run), I thought it might be worth throwing a duration on it. Has this been addressed anywhere? Anyone have an ideas about how to adjudicate it? Your thoughts would be welcome.
#2 AnimeSniper Apr 13, 2009 19:31:34	Maybe roll a dice a d20 for the number of rounds that the party has to successfully negotiate via Diplomacy and another dice for the number of days it takes for the party say during a diplomatic team journey to negotiate a treaty will take possibly d20 again....
#3 schizoveen Apr 14, 2009 2:56:35	I'v you would have some examples of play, it would be easier to come up with something. For now i think diplomacy is better handled in encounters. If the players would have encountered a NPC before you could give them a +5 on their check as things would be easier. Normally i try to chop a diplomatic encounter into pieces and let them roll for multiple aspects of the conversation. The duration would then be the full encounter. If the NPC is traveling with the players then they have to roll every 24 hours. a good night sleep changes moods of NPC's and let's them rethink conversations and opinions.
#4 DwarfFighter Apr 14, 2009 6:00:15	Diplomacy: It's not a magical spell, you know. It's not some sort of mystical effect like Charm that overrides the characters actual disposition. It actually changes it. As such the effect is permanent in that it is altered by the same factors that contributed to the subject's initial disposition. Also, a changed disposition does not put the subject in a state of blissful euphoria. He most certainly retains control of his senses. Even if he becomes friendly to the PCs that is quickly changed depending on how subsequent PC behaviour. The subject won't stay friendly for long if the PCs start attacking him or working against him. Unless the PCs somehown manage to change his driving motivation he'll likely end up in opposition to them again: If his ambition is to take over the world and the PCs are his enemies because they try to stop him, well... That's bound to repeat. -DF
#5 TheRealOrion Apr 14, 2009 13:36:24	Okay, we got some good ideas going. Great. What I'm thinking is that basically, Diplomacy lasts until the subject has reason to believe that the speaker is lying or won't make-good on their claims. So if you're honest and truthful, and you actually do what you claim you're going to do, then it could last forever, as in a politician who makes public speeches all the time. But if you lie through your teeth and immediately stab people in the back, then they'll wise up pretty fast. On that note, if and when you do give someone reason to believe you're not being truthful (or etc.), then they have to make a fresh roll to convince you again, and the roll takes a cumulative -10 circumstance penalty. There's only so long to can lie to people before they wise up. How's that strike you?
#6 backstabbist Apr 14, 2009 13:40:30	Diplomacy lasts until the subject has reason to believe that the speaker is lying or won't make-good on their claims. Duration: Until Dispelled, by mundane or magic means A great deal of Negotiation & Diplomacy went into the GenHague accords and they are still in play, and France hasnt asked for Louisiana back yet
#7 TheRealOrion Apr 14, 2009 15:35:51	I wouldn't think it would even be the kind of thing you could "dispell." If it's not a magical effect, magic can't "cancel" it. It could only create a magical effect that countered it. So to counter-act a Fanatic, you could cast a Charm spell, but it wouldn't "cure" someone of their fanaticism.
#8 DwarfFighter Apr 14, 2009 18:04:40	The Diplomacy rules have two basic functions: It's party vs. party in an opposed roll to win favour with a third party, and it's one party trying to change the attitude of another. What lacking is, among other things, a mechanic for adjusting a the subject's attitude towards someone other than yourself. An example sowing doubt and distrust among the town mayor's supporters to change their attitude towards him. -DF
#9 TheRealOrion Apr 14, 2009 19:43:24	I'm sorry, I don't see how that addresses my question.
#10 DwarfFighter Apr 15, 2009 5:11:23	You were talking of public speakers and I mentally jumped ahead to the matter of public opinion as an attitude towards the character. Opinion-makers such as political commentators, news networks and as well as friends and rivals all work to modify public opinion on you behalf. With a mechanic for this kind of "lobbying" you can adjudicate the effect of potential attitute-changing events. If the PCs get arrested on drug charges a news agency can put a spin on it to swing public opinion against them. -DF
#11 backstabbist Apr 15, 2009 9:46:11	uh.... and regarding duration?
#12 TheRealOrion Apr 15, 2009 10:57:47	Yeah, that's where I get lost, Dwarf. I mean, I appreciate the free-form brain-storming for what it is, but I had kind of a specific question. That said, this whole thing has ended up "blossoming" (or exploding) into a whole mess of questions about Diplomacy. I might start a fresh thread about it.
#13 DwarfFighter Apr 16, 2009 7:29:02	I may not have been clear in my initial reply, so here goes: I don't think it's appropriate to introduce a game mechanic for duration an attitude change in terms of game time, i.e. hours or days based. Instead, the NPC's attitude should change based on story events, typically the PCs actions as percieved by the NPC but also other events outside their direct control. Applying a cumulative penalty to subsequent attempts makes sense, but it seems kind of a cop-out. The thing I don't like about it is that the PCs initially change the NPC's attitude, presumably by appealing to his better qualities or insisting that they are better off as friends, and then they do just the opposite bu, say, destroying the Evil Mastermind's super-weapon. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" It seems reasonable that the PCs either find a way to exploit the Evil Mastermind's distrust of them (reverse psychology?) (allowing a fresh Diplomacy check) or they simply won't get an attempt at all. After all, by default Diplomacy isn't a "try again" skill. -DF
#14 TheRealOrion Apr 16, 2009 13:46:55	I see your point now, and after thinking it through and getting a wide variety of advice, I totally agree. Diplomacy is an actual attitude change, not a magical effect (as you say), nor is it necessary the art of bamboozling people. It's the product of discussion, which is partly why the skill appeals to me. So I've instantiated exactly the rule you're talking about: the results of the check stand until the subject(s) have reason to change their mind. Thanks for the input! Very much appreciated.
#15 backstabbist Apr 16, 2009 14:42:47	the results of the check stand until the subject(s) have reason to change their mind +1
#16 DwarfFighter Apr 17, 2009 6:04:45	Well, glad I could be of help for once. For further discussion of the social skills, this appears to be an appropriate thread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1177394 -DF