I wiki'd up "Flamethrower", and apparently all that exists are the giant ones with the back-pack mounted gas tank.
Also, they all seem to have a range of 30 meters (not 30 feet), and the gas tank doesn't explode when shot (like a car gas tank).
But I digress. Does the "Game Flamethrower" of Aliens, GTA, and 40K exist in the real world? I thought it did, using tanks of propolyn glycol, or something like that.
After searching the web, it seems not...
Also, they all seem to have a range of 30 meters (not 30 feet), and the gas tank doesn't explode when shot (like a car gas tank).
Car gas tanks don't explode when shot either. They just leak from the hole. NO gas tanks explode when shot with anything but HE ordinance or incindentary (Willi P) ammunition.
You may also be surprised to know that there are no laws restricting the ownership of flamethrowers in the United States.
Otherwise, I don't think there are any real examples of flamethrowers with a small "underslung" fuel tank. I think it may have something to do with the small tank only having enough fuel for one or two small bursts(?) before needing to be changed. If I remember correctly, flamethrowers are fuel hogs and without the big gas tanks they'd be all but useless.
However there are other interesting options out there than the practical. Do a search on Youtube for The Pyro System and you will find a series of videos by a kid named Everett Bradford who has been perfecting a wrist mounted flame thrower from common materials. He has gone through several versions and his current one is pretty near workable with an integrated ignigion, reflex valve and interchangable butane cannisters (standard storebought).
True, he is likely to burn his house down someday....
http://www.youtube.com/user/everettbradford
You may also be surprised to know that there are no laws restricting the ownership of flamethrowers in the United States.
:evillaugh God I love this country.
Also, when I said that the tanks don't explode when shot (like a car's gas tank), I meant it as in, "Flamethrower tanks are similar to a car's gas tank, in that they don't explode when shot"
For a true liquid squirter,
to put a quart of gasoline on a target, you need to carry a quart of gasoline for each shot. That would make a 4shot Flamethrower need at least a gallong jug of gas, plus the pressure unit
Also, despite the fact the rules say it is a backpack model, the stats of "30 foot range, 3d6 damage" sound a LOT more like the "GameThrower", than the "30 meter, instant immolation" of the IRL backpack flamers...
Well, we are in PL 6... what is the feasibility of some sort of "expanding" flammable liquid, so like, a 4 litre tank, under high pressure, could shoot more than 4 shots?
Also, despite the fact the rules say it is a backpack model, the stats of "30 foot range, 3d6 damage" sound a LOT more like the "GameThrower", than the "30 meter, instant immolation" of the IRL backpack flamers...
well that's just artificial game balance right there...
Imagine if you gave the flame thrower a range of 90 feet... then you've got a weapon that doesn't require any feats to use, doesn't even require an attack roll to hit, affects a line 18 squares long and does 3d6 points of damage...
compare that to the stats for an M-16...
it requires 2 feats to use effectively, it requires an attack roll, and even on auto-fire it only affects 4 squares for 2d8 points of damage.
the Flame thrower becomes a no-brainer for the ranged weapon of choice.
Bottom line... the rules for flame throwers are broken, and instead of fixing them with something like addition feat requirements (exotic weapon proficiency maybe?), a 5' range increment and 1d4 fire damage (with a reflex save DC15 or the target instantly catches fire)...
They nerfed its range and treated it like a wand of lightning... only it does fire damage instead.
Waylans stats are good, if I did it I would have gone like him but
Flamer
Prof: Exotic- Flamers
Size Large
Weight 5
Rate: Single, Auto
Ammo 10
RI 5' , max 5RI's
Damage 1d8 Fire, RefDC15 CatchFire (standard continued damage)
Damage Autofire: 1d6 Fire, RefDC10 Catch
Vulerable to Fire, Electrical, and explosive area attacks: 10HP, Detonate for 4d6 Fire NoSave &Catchfire, 5'r RefDC15 1d6 & Catch Chance
Flame Thrower
Prof: Exotic- Flamers
Size Large
Weight 10
Ammo 5
RI 10' , max 5RI's
Damage 1d10 Fire, CatchFire (standard continued damage)
Damage Autofire: 1d6 & DC20 Catch chance
Vulerable to Fire, Electrical, and explosive area attacks: 10HP, Detonate for 4d6 Fire NoSave &Catchfire, 5'r RefDC15 1d6 & Catch Chance
One of the ignored features of Flamethrowers is the way they replace the stuff we breath with stuff we cant when used indoors. I should make some Room Volume vs FlameShots function for detrimental effect to vision and breathing
on the other hand, complete submersion in flaming liquid seems like it should do something similar to complete immersion in acid... and in D20 Modern, I THINK that's 20d6 points of damage...
makes you wonder why we don't use flamethrowers for everything?
oh yeah... the whole exploding fuel tank/ indiscriminate targeting thing... that and 25 meters seems like a long way until you compare it to the 100 meter range of real life fire-arms like the m16...
BUT
artificial game balance nerfs all that
if you fix the flamethrower you have to fix every other weapon in the game, and if you do that, you need to re consider how defense scores are calculated, how hardness is calculated, how hit points are calculated....
essentially you have to re-design the game from the ground up...
I've never seen a flamethrower in action in real life, but if war movies are to be believed
They're not.
makes you wonder why we don't use flamethrowers for everything?
Geneva Convention and range, really.
oh yeah... the whole exploding fuel tank
The fuel tanks don't explode.
In fact, I might even consider giving a flame thrower a fear effect due to its very primal nature. Its why people run, even if they might be able to survive the damage.
In fact, I might even consider giving a flame thrower a fear effect due to its very primal nature. Its why people run, even if they might be able to survive the damage.
Flamethrowers should get an incontinence effect too. :P
They're not.
Geneva Convention and range, really.
The fuel tanks don't explode.
"I've never seen a flamethrower in action in real life..."
I said that at the beginning of my post... why the need to pick it apart?
they spray unburning fuel out as an area effect,
and then that sprayed fuel vapor gets lit by something (usually the pilot of the gun itself)
and FWWWWOOmmph!
for the sake of game play, we just consider it close enough to an explosion
key to remember is the difference between a gun that shoots FLAME all over you,
and a gun that squirts FUEL all over you (and that fuel is on fire). Flamers have crud for range, Squirters can reach out a little bit, like the old ww2 film reels of pillboxes getting the juice from a few dozen yards away
key to remember is the difference between a gun that shoots FLAME all over you,
and a gun that squirts FUEL all over you (and that fuel is on fire). Flamers have crud for range, Squirters can reach out a little bit, like the old ww2 film reels of pillboxes getting the juice from a few dozen yards away
I've seen that footage... and it is awesome.
Just curious, how many poeple are suddenly reminded of the george carlin bit about flamethrowers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4nknAzQPHE
is cause they're one of the few cool weapons, that John Moses Browning didnt design
The reason Flamethrowers have serious problems
is cause they're one of the few cool weapons, that John Moses Browning didnt design
yes flamethrowers do explode and here is why, think about throwing rocks at a propane tank, about 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 times you WILL get a spark, and a spark mixed with unlit gas becomes a lighter. granted not an explosion per se but flames shooting out of the hole in the tank.
2 there is always the butane lighter/supersoaker idea, but the damn thing is very likely to melt after a couple of shots, unless you got something towards the end to keep the flames enough of a distance away from the end of it.
there is always the simple fact that flamethrowers ALWAYS run through ammo fast, and gas for flamethrowers tends to be expensive. you are more likely to use jet fuel than car fuel simply because jet fuel gets hotter, while car fuel burns slightly longer...
thats enough for me.
ttyl
Not a Pen Dragon
a couple things
yes flamethrowers do explode and here is why, think about throwing rocks at a propane tank, about 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 times you WILL get a spark, and a spark mixed with unlit gas becomes a lighter. granted not an explosion per se but flames shooting out of the hole in the tank.
2 there is always the butane lighter/supersoaker idea, but the damn thing is very likely to melt after a couple of shots, unless you got something towards the end to keep the flames enough of a distance away from the end of it.
No, they do not explode.
1) A bullet isn't a rock. It doesn't create the kind of spark necessary to even get the hole to flame.
2) Not even a propane tank will explode when shot with standard ammunition. If you want visual proof, Mythbusters proved this by shooting propane tanks.
3) A few flames is not an "explosion." This is not arguing semantics either.
A flamethrower's fuel tank will explode under the right conditions, but these conditions don't include being shot by standard ammunition.
there is always the simple fact that flamethrowers ALWAYS run through ammo fast, and gas for flamethrowers tends to be expensive. you are more likely to use jet fuel than car fuel simply because jet fuel gets hotter, while car fuel burns slightly longer...
I'm pretty sure most military flamethrowers use a special mix, something like napalm but not quite? Either way I'd use jet fuel for a "civilian" model, if not regular gasoline.
Then they went with a gasoline mix.
For getting the fuel to burn on th target, rather than on the way to the target, you want a slower buring fuel and a more surface tensiony fuel to reduce misting (which cause that whole buring on the way to target problem)
I'd personally try a gasoline & deisel mix 30-70 mix for enough lightability and the high thermal output per gallon of deisel
It's just like a potato gun. If you put in too much hair spray, it won't fire. You have to blow some oxygen into the combustion tank, and then it'll work.
In fact, Mythbusters shot propane tanks with tracers and even incendieries, and got jack squat. There wasn't enough air mixed in with the propane for any of it to ignite. The only time they got it to explode was when they lit it up with a minigun running incendiery ammo, which pulled enough air into the mix to make it volatile.
It's just like a potato gun. If you put in too much hair spray, it won't fire. You have to blow some oxygen into the combustion tank, and then it'll work.
well its a good thing there's no machine guns with incendiary ammo on the battlefield... 'cause if there was, those flamethrower fuel tanks might explode if they got shot.
oh wait... there ARE machine guns with incendiary ammo on the battlefield!
But backstabbist is right... though a bullet might not cause a fuel tank to explode, it will most likely cause a leak, which then gets ignited by the flamethrower attached to the tank... and then WOOSH!
Not technically an explosion, but I doubt the semantics matter to the guy holding the flamethrower.
our old friend d20 Coarseness come to visit with rupturing flamethrowers:
your equipment doesnt have to save for each 9mm slug you take to the gut.
When was the last time you rolled for a guys Binoculars, PDA, Radio, canteen, etc when he was hit by a guy shooting a 9mm at him? Yes, the 9mm slug would obviously "break" all those equipments, yet we dont roll for personal equipment..... heck, we dont even roll saves for your armor protecting you from a Disintegrator Rifle: you armor only can get disintegrated when your entire YOU gets disintegrated
So
If a Disinegrator Rifle cant hurt your armor
a 9mm/BMG cant hurt your gun or binocs (your gun being a flamerthrower)
Incendiary Bullets cannot blow an attended Flamer in d20 Modern, cause Bullets cannot damage an attended Flamer in d20 Modern
and that is why I stat'ed it as AoE Typed damage to the unit rather than each slug you take to the gut
I mean, chainsaws really aren't combat weapon or battlefield practical. But we still stat them out and have fun with them anyway.
well its a good thing there's no machine guns with incendiary ammo on the battlefield... 'cause if there was, those flamethrower fuel tanks might explode if they got shot.
oh wait... there ARE machine guns with incendiary ammo on the battlefield!
Shot with machine gun loaded with incidintary ammo != just being shot. Its a specific condition which will ignite the fuel, an exception to the rule. Therefore, saying the blanket statement "a flamethrower explodes when shot" is still incorrect.
I think the more important question would be: Would making flamethrowers explode add anything to the game? If it does, the screw the reality. This game is based more on movie physics than reality to begin with. If it just seems to be more of a hassle preventing players from having fun, then can the idea.
This is a case when reality wins over fantasy. Ask your players if they want their weapon to arbitrarily explode despite that they don't in reality. I'd hope the answer to be a resounding "no." :P
I mean, chainsaws really aren't combat weapon or battlefield practical. But we still stat them out and have fun with them anyway.
But we don't arbitrarily make them explode either. :P
But we don't arbitrarily make them explode either.
YET.
You guys ever read my Chainsaw Detonation Matrix essay?
Cause, if anyone ever had a Chainsaw Detonation Matrix, it would be me
YET.
You guys ever read my Chainsaw Detonation Matrix essay?
Cause, if anyone ever had a Chainsaw Detonation Matrix, it would be me
I'm convinced you have some sort of EVERYTHING detonation matrix. :P
Things that go BOOM!
Shot with machine gun loaded with incidintary ammo != just being shot. Its a specific condition which will ignite the fuel, an exception to the rule. Therefore, saying the blanket statement "a flamethrower explodes when shot" is still incorrect.
"a flamethrower explodes when shot"
I never said that... yet you put quotes around it...
What I said was "...the whole exploding fuel tank... ...thing".
So technically I was saying that flamethrower fuel tanks just randomly explode for no reason...:P
If you are going to dissect my posts and quote them back to me, at least do it right.
Anyway, if you want to keep picking apart my posts, you'll have to do it in another thread... I'm done with this one... I don't know what else I can add to the subject.
This is a case when reality wins over fantasy. Ask your players if they want their weapon to arbitrarily explode despite that they don't in reality. I'd hope the answer to be a resounding "no."
uh, you are still not getting it right.
Backpack flamethrowers ARE notoriously susceptible to catastrophic events from small arms fire. So much so, that military at one point was developing armors and disguises for the backpacks to prevent those catastrophic immolations.
When you shoot a fire extinguisher, it doesnt just arc out a single stream of extinguisher juice, is sprays all over the place... the chemical ones disappear in a cloud they make around them. Now just make that big white cloud turn into gasoline mist, and it is still just a harmless fog getting everything in it wet.... unless it gets lit, then it is a highly lethal firecloud and all the 'wet' things are now fuel soaked & lit
We used to have a WaterWeasle, fill the rubber tube with water and it sprays out whipping back & forth & all over the place.... now do that with gasoline and it is not an explosion, it is a soaking. Now light the gas and it is still not an explosion.
However, rather than try to develop some new mechanic rules for area tank-rupture & spray.... d20 Coarseness can call that a burst effect for a radius with a Save and damage
Though you do have a valid point on d20 Coarseness.
that is the crux of the semantics war going on in this thread
Most folks think Bullet means FMJ unless stated otherwise,
while you want to include Inc MG fire,
and we all know my default slug for the word Bullet is a 2700lb AP from the Iowa
To say that every bullet shot at the Flamer guy will rupture the tanks aint right,
but then, neither is just declaring Flamethrowers unbreakable & safe.
I stat'ed them for typed Area damage to avoid this whole mess of defining which bullets do and which do not and calibres and the obvious Bambi vs Godzilla type physical ruptures from GRKtG.
When you're sitting at St Peters desk filling out the application forms, and you get to Cause Of Death, he will tell you to just but 'explosion' rather than some essay on tank ruptures & spraying fuel proximity