Double Tap and Massive Damage - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Double Tap and Massive Damage

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
blazefallow
Jun 14, 2009 22:15:04 Hello everyone.

So I understand how massive damage works. As stated in the book it goes:

"Any time you take damage from a single hit that exceeds your massive damage threshold, that damage is considered massive damage."

I also understand how to find the threshold and all that other nonsense. What I'm having trouble with is the verbage: "Single Hit". Does that mean single attack? Each bullet fired?

The reason I ask is that Double tap allows for 2 bullets to be fired, thus adding an extra die of damage, and it's combined into a single attack. So assuming this was from a 2d6 pistol, you'd get a a single attack that does 3d6 damage. But, would this be considered a 3d6 single hit for massive damage purposes? or would it be one hit 2d6 and another hit 1d6 for massive damage purposes?

You can see the implications here. While the average pistol will generally have a hard or impossible time hitting the massive damage threshold of most people, if the double tap damage can be included in that bid to surpass it, many pistols would be back in the game for that.

This all being said, would you say, if double tap can be added into massive damage potential that burst fire could as well?

So in the end it comes down to what is considered a "Single hit".

Is it each bullet being fired? or is it the single attack the person made?
#2
MechaPilot
Jun 14, 2009 22:32:49 My understanding is that it's for one attack; that the double-tap's full damage is considered. That's why double tap is so coveted/dangerous.
#3
TheRealOrion
Jun 14, 2009 22:33:59 One attack is one attack, for the purposes of massive damage. I think that is the point of Double Tap and such-like effects.
#4
backstabbist
Jun 14, 2009 22:34:04 Yes,
a DoubleTap is considered a single hit, and the +1Die does add in to try to MAS the target.

Same with Burstfire, so a m14/G3/FAL 2d10 gun using Burstfire can do 4d10 to try to MAS the target.

This MAS deal sounds dangerous on the surface, but-
a) Even when you do force a MAS save, the roll is always & forever Fort DC15 by RAW. This becomes an increadibly easy roll to make when you are over 10th level.

b) 4d10 can flat out kill a lot of low level characters... oh, and your dead guy was MAS'ed too

c) This is just another example of why the words of Razoreface are so important in d20Modern
"Try getting shot less"
Its a frickin 30-06 class gun, and you are suposedly getting hit by a bunch of them bullets... of course it will do really bad things to ya

d) there is no Sneak Attacks in Modern for a good reason... they'd MAS a lot of guys. Well, there is one cheater class that gets them, but it is broken to the point of absurdity
#5
Master_Vega
Jun 14, 2009 22:35:02 Yes, it counts as one hit for the purpose of exceeding MAS. Despite the number of bullets involved, it's still one attack. The same goes for Burst Fire.
#6
rhialto
Jun 15, 2009 1:42:31
d) there is no Sneak Attacks in Modern for a good reason... they'd MAS a lot of guys. Well, there is one cheater class that gets them, but it is broken to the point of absurdity

A thought just struck me - perhaps sneak attack in modern could be implemented as a (very modest) damage bonus, just enough to hit the threshold half the time, plus a not-so-modest penalty on the resulting Fort save? How (un)balanced could that be?
#7
backstabbist
Jun 15, 2009 9:57:57
just enough to hit the threshold half the time

But what is the threshhold?
Con 11?
Con 14?
Con 8?

Sitting with a 300wm just 25m from a guy,
using a 10x scope so you can put the crosshairs on the second pen in his pocketprotector,
and he is just sitting there eating his lunch unaware of you,
would that be a sneak attack?
... from 80' or more away? If a pistol is accurate enough for a 30' sneak attack, then a rifle would be good out to 100' or 150'. 10th level shooter, bipod m14 10xscope unaware target = 4d10 Burstfire + 3d6 Sneak +(build junk) at 100m (150m with Farshot Feat)?

Its hard to balance to what the MAS will be, since it can be from 8 to 18 at 1st level.
If we did implement Sneak Attack, what would you take away from FAST class to balance this superpower?
#8
rhialto
Jun 15, 2009 11:39:38 I was thinking to make the damage bonus equal to class level, and the save penalty equal to half that (round up).

All normal restrictions on when the sneak attack ability can be used woudl still apply. In order to use sneak attack with ranged weapons, a series of enabling feats would be required, similart to those in vanilla 3E D&D.

Fast heroes could pick this as their class talent each time they get to pick a talent (as one more choice among many, not in addition to their regular talent choice). Some prestige classes (probably to be designed) would get it as one "pip" per class level as a class feature. Some existing prestige classes would get it as one "pip" per X class levels as a class feature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 blazefallow Jun 14, 2009 22:15:04	Hello everyone. So I understand how massive damage works. As stated in the book it goes: "Any time you take damage from a single hit that exceeds your massive damage threshold, that damage is considered massive damage." I also understand how to find the threshold and all that other nonsense. What I'm having trouble with is the verbage: "Single Hit". Does that mean single attack? Each bullet fired? The reason I ask is that Double tap allows for 2 bullets to be fired, thus adding an extra die of damage, and it's combined into a single attack. So assuming this was from a 2d6 pistol, you'd get a a single attack that does 3d6 damage. But, would this be considered a 3d6 single hit for massive damage purposes? or would it be one hit 2d6 and another hit 1d6 for massive damage purposes? You can see the implications here. While the average pistol will generally have a hard or impossible time hitting the massive damage threshold of most people, if the double tap damage can be included in that bid to surpass it, many pistols would be back in the game for that. This all being said, would you say, if double tap can be added into massive damage potential that burst fire could as well? So in the end it comes down to what is considered a "Single hit". Is it each bullet being fired? or is it the single attack the person made?
#2 MechaPilot Jun 14, 2009 22:32:49	My understanding is that it's for one attack; that the double-tap's full damage is considered. That's why double tap is so coveted/dangerous.
#3 TheRealOrion Jun 14, 2009 22:33:59	One attack is one attack, for the purposes of massive damage. I think that is the point of Double Tap and such-like effects.
#4 backstabbist Jun 14, 2009 22:34:04	Yes, a DoubleTap is considered a single hit, and the +1Die does add in to try to MAS the target. Same with Burstfire, so a m14/G3/FAL 2d10 gun using Burstfire can do 4d10 to try to MAS the target. This MAS deal sounds dangerous on the surface, but- a) Even when you do force a MAS save, the roll is always & forever Fort DC15 by RAW. This becomes an increadibly easy roll to make when you are over 10th level. b) 4d10 can flat out kill a lot of low level characters... oh, and your dead guy was MAS'ed too c) This is just another example of why the words of Razoreface are so important in d20Modern "Try getting shot less" Its a frickin 30-06 class gun, and you are suposedly getting hit by a bunch of them bullets... of course it will do really bad things to ya d) there is no Sneak Attacks in Modern for a good reason... they'd MAS a lot of guys. Well, there is one cheater class that gets them, but it is broken to the point of absurdity
#5 Master_Vega Jun 14, 2009 22:35:02	Yes, it counts as one hit for the purpose of exceeding MAS. Despite the number of bullets involved, it's still one attack. The same goes for Burst Fire.
#6 rhialto Jun 15, 2009 1:42:31	d) there is no Sneak Attacks in Modern for a good reason... they'd MAS a lot of guys. Well, there is one cheater class that gets them, but it is broken to the point of absurdity A thought just struck me - perhaps sneak attack in modern could be implemented as a (very modest) damage bonus, just enough to hit the threshold half the time, plus a not-so-modest penalty on the resulting Fort save? How (un)balanced could that be?
#7 backstabbist Jun 15, 2009 9:57:57	just enough to hit the threshold half the time But what is the threshhold? Con 11? Con 14? Con 8? Sitting with a 300wm just 25m from a guy, using a 10x scope so you can put the crosshairs on the second pen in his pocketprotector, and he is just sitting there eating his lunch unaware of you, would that be a sneak attack? ... from 80' or more away? If a pistol is accurate enough for a 30' sneak attack, then a rifle would be good out to 100' or 150'. 10th level shooter, bipod m14 10xscope unaware target = 4d10 Burstfire + 3d6 Sneak +(build junk) at 100m (150m with Farshot Feat)? Its hard to balance to what the MAS will be, since it can be from 8 to 18 at 1st level. If we did implement Sneak Attack, what would you take away from FAST class to balance this superpower?
#8 rhialto Jun 15, 2009 11:39:38	I was thinking to make the damage bonus equal to class level, and the save penalty equal to half that (round up). All normal restrictions on when the sneak attack ability can be used woudl still apply. In order to use sneak attack with ranged weapons, a series of enabling feats would be required, similart to those in vanilla 3E D&D. Fast heroes could pick this as their class talent each time they get to pick a talent (as one more choice among many, not in addition to their regular talent choice). Some prestige classes (probably to be designed) would get it as one "pip" per class level as a class feature. Some existing prestige classes would get it as one "pip" per X class levels as a class feature.