So tell me:
- Do wizards wander around unchecked, tossing fireballs with impunity?
- How are you managing things like warforged, orcs, medusas, etc?
So tell me:
- Do wizards wander around unchecked, tossing fireballs with impunity?
- How are you managing things like warforged, orcs, medusas, etc?
First, on Magic: all reasonable laws would have been passed. Sure you can throw a fireball in the middle of the street with dozens of wittnesses. You can throw a granade too, or fire a gun. All of which would be just as illegal, and many public areas would have perminent Acane Dampiners, (that would ignore police and fire uses of arcane power.)
Warforged would be rare as would all constructs as they are just so expensive to make. However all companies and militaries would keep some on hand for security. Some would be civilians but that would be far rarer.
Most Orcs would tend to be from Nordic stock and quite proud of it. They would tend to blue collar jobs, bouncers, and bodygaurds where strength is more of an asset than intellect is. Quite a few would dominate the upper weight classes MMA tournements, and boxing, (though for my money Sprite class is the most fun to watch. Strikeing and holds are so much better when both combatants can fly.) To be fair quite a few orcs would also find "extra-legal" money making opportunities, because the need for hired muscle never goes out of demand.
Meduse would be of Greek stock, and wear it with pride. Most in legal professions would use enchanted necklaces to keep from turning people to stone. They would enjoy quiter jobs such as librarians or museum currators.
Mind flayers, do not exist. They are not working for various countries intellegence programs. Return to your business citezen.
That is a starter what do you think now?
In a modern setting, Orcs oppressed as a social group can provide plot and adventure scenarios based on which side the players fall on: either defending a key Orc rights movement leader from would-be assassins, or having to stealthily assassinate the speaker in a public place. Of course, you'd have to be careful about how you want the campaign to go or else it ends up revolving entirely around the Orcs' struggle (in mine from above, they all got tangled in the Dwarves' vs. Halflings struggle rather than moving east to the battles in Poland)
Redcaps:
The orriginal Redcaps were depending on who you ask, Halfling Irish freedom fighters against the Brittish invaders, or murderous Halfling terrorists. That said when the Irish began to immigrate the name was reused by Irish gangs that formed out of despiration due to job discrimination. The membership was now no longer exclusively Halfling. That died out in the Mid 1930's. However disturbingly in some east coast cities the name is now being used by some gangs of Euro-supremicists. Recently attacks on those of Asian or African decent including Nezumi, Litorians and Sebicai have been increasingly attributed to Gangs using the name Redcaps. (Litroans - lion folk & Sebicai - Jackal folk from Sword & Sorcery's Arcana Unearthed. Nezumi from Oriental Adventures.)
The orriginal Redcaps were depending on who you ask, Halfling Irish freedom fighters against the Brittish invaders, or murderous Halfling terrorists. That said when the Irish began to immigrate the name was reused by Irish gangs that formed out of despiration due to job discrimination. The membership was now no longer exclusively Halfling. That died out in the Mid 1930's. However disturbingly in some east coast cities the name is now being used by some gangs of Euro-supremicists. Recently attacks on those of Asian or African decent including Nezumi, Litorians and Sebicai have been increasingly attributed to Gangs using the name Redcaps. (Litroans - lion folk & Sebicai - Jackal folk from Sword & Sorcery's Arcana Unearthed. Nezumi from Oriental Adventures.)
THIS I like! It provides all sorts of factions and hooks and remains plausable (in sofar as fantasy gets).
With E-Wrath I am looting several D20 sources. I am using Litroans from Arcana Unearthed by sword & sorcery, in that book they are Lion men but I am expanding them to be Big Cat men with geographic Ethnicity. Lions & Lepoards from Africa, Mountain Lions from Native American Stock, Jaguar from South & MesoAmerica, and and the Indian Tiger Litroans would be responsible for tales of Rakshasa (you get the better end of some shlub in a few deals and all of a sudden your entire race is labeled "demonic".)
Nezumi would be primarily from Asia, as they and the Lupin (see Dragon Conpendium) were hunted viciously in Europe. Nezumi would have first been recognized as having rights as sentients in Asian and therefore be more populous there. Lupin are mostly Native American as they had a far freindlier attitude towards Wolves ingeneral than Europeans. I am ruleing Gnolls will be African as that is wher Hyenas live their anthropomorphic kin should be there too. I feel the common races (PHB) would be spread out over the entire world. I however think that I'll just call Half Orks - Orks and rule that demi-humans are not geneticaly compatible. (Because if we have half-elves & half-orks, why not half-gnomes, half-halflings, and half-Ork/Elf Elorks, or Elf/Goblins called Gobves.) I do think that Sprit folk would be more universal than the far east alone and I want to have a sentient plant race, what do you all think?
also see if you can find savage species, it has the LA on elementals and such.
(the crystal keep srd does have a plant race)
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php
and the races pdf file:
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf
This is a long post, so apologies
When I originally saw a modern fantasy thread i knew it had potential and would be something i would want to contribute to, however I dont realy like the D20 modern classes and think its far preferable to create full 20 level classes, this is just a personal preferance of mine.
I have had a look at what you have done so far and quite like what I saw, I agree that it is a big project.
I like the fact that you have said these races are gentically incompatible, this makes a lot of sense from a science perspective ( we share 96% dna with chimps and yet we cannot interbreed, what chance do orcs have) and also clears a few issues up like Dwelves, Halves, Elorcs etc.
One very minor criticism I have is that i feel there are too many demi-human/monstrous humanoid races, given mankinds track history when it comes to dealing with different races OF THE SAME SPECIES, not to mention that there is no real reason why other races would be any different i find it unlikely that so many races would have survived in great number, what races did survive would depend on where they originate.
The best way to see whether a race would be accepted or not is to have a look at the folklore, mythology and dominant religions of the area, Elves, halflings and dwarves would probably be OK in Europe as they would be seen to have connections with good fey, and Norse myth, they also look only slightly different than humans, Orks would not be accepted in Europe and they would probably have been hunted to extinction in Europe as trolls or monsters by ancient Europeans or as demonic children of Satan by the early church and inquisition.
I am inclined to think any obviously non human race (especially anything remotely animalistic or draconic/demonic in appearance) would be either be persecuted and driven out in Europe, or hunted and purged, in the far east Dragons are revered as divine instead of feared as they are in Europe and so any reptilian or draconic species will be accepted as possibly divine in origin, however tigers and foxes (and many other mammalian species) are considered evil in eastern myth myth and any feline and canine humanoids would be considered demonic and again not accepted.
India and the rest of the Indian subcontinent has Hinduism as dominant religion and so would be probably the most accepting of non humans (considering that many Hindu gods are non human, maybe their religion is based on myths about ancient non humans, Hanuman could have been an ancient Vanara ruler and sorcerer, the same Vanara sorcerer revered as the Monkey King in china),
Vanara , yaun ti (children of Nag in India maybe), Nezumi (chuhas) and no doubt many others would be accepted, although i think they would not be as high as Brahmins (human priest caste) in the Indian caste system, or maybe Hindu culture would have developed a second caste system.
Ancient North America and its natives would no doubt accept animalistic humanoids quite well, especially those that have positive image in native American myth, wolves, coyotes, eagles, owls, etc.
South America and its Mesoamerican cultures (Aztecs. Incas etc) would also probably accept many races, especially animalistic races of the desert, snakes, spiders for instance, and would not view the brutality of some races (such as orcs) as a big problem as their own culture was quite brutal, speaking of orcs, even we don't say that they are evil as a race they are still aggressive and a bit savage, its their nature and so they will be welcome in few parts of the world, warrior cultures may accept them, viewing their aggression as a virtue, as such Mongols, Huns, and other aggressive barbarians would accept them, (however despite being a warrior culture I doubt japan would accept an orc samurai).
The middle east would be different historically and change as time passed, the ancient people of the middle east, (the Egyptians, Babylonians, sumerians etc) would probably accept non humans in the same way as India and Mesoamerica, as many ancient deities are non human (Tiamat is a sumerian deity),also many of the Egyptian gods could be based on actual monstrous humanoids that lived in its past, in fact many of the priesthood of these cultures could have been non humans.
However with the coming of Islam (and to a lesser extent Judaism) many non humanoids would find themselves in trouble, partly because of their association with ancient (and banned) religions, but also for their obviously non human natures, any reptilian species would be hunted as being related to the serpent of Eden and having connections with the devil, many mammals would be hunted as "unclean" beasts, in fact the only non humans I can see survivingwould be the demihumans and even they would no doubt be bottom of the pecking order.
So with that said I think that the number of species should be dropped, we have only just entered the age of tolerance (where institutional racism was still around in the 1950s) and so they have many centuries of intolerance,genocide and persecution to survive.
now onto the positives.
Historical people, instead of created many new historical personalities (after all humans wont be responsible for everything) you can add a few and then take existing ones and change their races, for instance, I see Leonardo deVinci as a dwarf, maybe Isaac Newton was an elf, Genghis khan was an orc, Montezuma was a yaun ti, Vlad the impaler might have been an actual vampire.
Also as this is a fantasy setting some mythological historic figures might have existed too, King Arthur (first paladin and founder of the round table, one of the largest paladin orders in the world, I also see some paladins being samurai), Merlin was a druid etc.
There will also need to be a few folk heros for these races, freedom fighters and idealists, halfling suffragettes, as you mention Orc rights leaders.
Regarding Magic, you have 2 choices,
1) Magic is like physics and works in the same kind of way, it has laws and energies that can be studied and manipulated with magical techniques, and in this way magic becomes its own thing and separate from any existing real world mysticism, it will probably merge with science to a great degree (not so that you get technomagic as magic is a different discipline with different laws, it would be like saying lets build a car out of light), this makes things interesting as not only could Einstein have been one of greatest physicists who ever lived, but he was also a powerful wizard.
2) Magic is the real world magical teachings that actually work, therefore wizards would by definition be, wiccans,kabbalists,Galdr, etc, magic would have its roots in real world magical traditions, this is good as well and i can help you with this.
These 2 choices really become, magic as science or magic as mysticism, both are good in my opinion, however i think magic will have been suppressed and banned in many places for centuries, this is because in the real world magic was frowned upon by most (but not all) cultures, and even though magic doesn't exist in the real world it could still get you burned (or hung), the last law against the practice of magic was only scrapped in Britain in the 1950s, and that's in the real world imagine how much worse it would have been if magic DID work!
option 1 is more conductive to magic being accepted in the 21st century, as misunderstood science, in this scenario it would be acceptable to have Oxford,Cambridge,Harvard and other universities having magical departments and faculties, administration for magical affairs (who decide on magical legislation in the same way that legislation is decided for fire arms etc), magic users will need licences and registration to able to legally use magic, much magic will outright banned (necromancy, summoning, some divination, overtly destructive etc) for the same reason surface to air missiles are banned for the general populace, in fact the majority of "legal" magic would be protective and utilitarian in nature, however some practitioners of magic might obey these laws but still have an illegal spellbook locked away (purely in the interest of science, or in case of emergency).
I think that many areas having null magic zones is too much, and would be inclined to say that only major targets have such safeguards if these safeguards are possible (the pentagon, whitehouse, houses of parliament, buckingham palace, 10 downing street etc), these zones would be hard to maintain and would probably require several powerful wizards in constant concentration (if they are possible to create under the laws of magic, in the same way as a null gravity area is not possible) and I am in favour of having rogue wizards being dealt with in the same way as terrorists, and the public is aware of these people (occasionally to the point of hysteria) there are laws in place to control magic, these laws are enforced by special squads of the police force and military, anyone suspected of illegal magic is arrested and imprisoned (in a special prisons that either are null magic if they exist or they are drugged or restrained so they cannot use it) because despite magic being existent I don't think it should be the focus of the setting, that should be everyday life in a world where magic CAN happen when your orc neighbor next door ate your dog, magic should not really impact on the average Joe too much other than when something big happens (terrorism does not affect most people directly, people feel sympathy for victims and rage at the terrorists, but in terms of having been affected directly in that a relative died or a relative was a terrorist very few people have, the most experience the majority has with terrorism is when they read about it in the paper or see it on the TV, that's how magic should be for most people).
I know this is a long post but two final question,
What about dragons? will they exist or will they be extinct and museums have dragon skeletons and hordes as exhibits, maybe western dragons are "thought" extinct, and eastern dragons still exist (but are rare), or maybe dragons still exist and many are for lack of a better word celebrities (maybe a red dragon could light the Olympic torch), maybe they are wealthy citizens, Donald Trump is red dragon (I see him now sat in a huge penthouse on a pile of coins, still wearing a toupee) .
secondly this is related to magic,
what about divine magic? are you going to base it on what i posted here or maybe not include it at all, the same for outsiders?
thank you
I am ruleing that all magic is seen by some at least as science. (Even divine but that is a point of public debate & contraversy
.)
good move, in all honesty all that would be required for science to accept magic and embrace it unto itself is for it to be demonstrable under laboratory conditions, and this is clearly possible in this setting, and while arcane physicists may not know everything about HOW magic works , they know enough for it to be a hot topic of inquiry for scientists all around the world, in a universe where magic works, it IS science.
regarding divine magic, this too may also be demonstrated under laboratory conditions and will therefore be accepted by science, however as a believer of any religion is capiable of divine magic, divine magic is not considered proof of the truth of any religion, or even that a divine presence of any kind exists, as i said in my post on the subject, even atheists and skeptics can subscribe to the magic of will and magic of belief views of arcane and divine magic.
As far as Outsiders go, no one has seen any extraplanar entities except were recorded in religious documents.
Slippery slope! does this extend to every documented religion? if so then you have Thor, Zeus, Lucifer, maybe even Cthulhu if you like. this approach is OK as long as it extends to every religion (thereby avoiding insult and at the same time allowing for skepticism, if every religions demons, angels, demigods etc have appeared at some point then no single religious world view is correct, therefore any one might be in the eyes of its believers but they can all be wrong in the eyes of the skeptic)Ironically the best way to avoid bad issues with this is to include EVERYTHING and not restrict at all.
I also like the idea of there being no outsiders documented for a while (perhaps before magic was regulated, there may have been an famous "incident" with a summoning).
(I am gonna try and convert InNomine to D20 as far as that goes.)
Not sure about that, I have not played the game but from what I know it is largely Angelic in the judeo-christian sense, I may be wrong as I have not played it.
If it is then it would be a mistake to include this and not other forms of outsider, as this establishes the setting as one where judeo-christian cosmology holds sway. I think that the MM and other book on outsiders are fine, all that is required is too change the window dressing and a few minor tweaks, for instance a pitfiend works for a judeo-christian demon, now describe him as having facial tentacles and be green, change his evil domain racial spells to madness domain and you have a Lovecraftian demon, certain demons need no help i.e mariliths, rakshasa's etc.
the view i would take is that outsiders are non cosmology specific, they are also formless as they are spirits, however they "wear" shapes when they take physical form and these shapes tend to be ones ascribed to them, they get to use that wonderful cliched line "I appear as an angel to you because that is what you expect me to look like,your mortal mind can comprehend that, if you looked upon my true form you would go insane/blind/die", outsiders can be beings from other universes/dimensions, maybe they are able to somehow view the collective mind of man and chose forms for themselves, maybe the luminous mist thinks that to be a golden skinned humanoid with wings is a suitable form for it.
thats just my opinion though.
Also some divine spells I am leaving out of the setting, namely reincarnation & resurection. They take the risk down too much.
I 100% agree with you , I am not a fan of these spells anyway, death should mean something, and if you look in cultural context, it doesnt work, I have removed these spells from my homebrew fantasy setting.
But the Magic as science post about covers it, Arcane energy is studied applied & largely understood.
Good thats established then, there are arcane universities and it is possible for the gifted to get a BMa (bachelor of magic) from these collages, it also avoids lots of complicated messing around with magical traditions, the good thing is this view is also inclusive of such things and does not rule out ancient magic, maybe in older time wizards used magic instinctively or discovered a few principle of magic by accident and as such ancient Egyptian wizards were able to perfom magic because their magical traditions and teachings included just enough truth and good stuff for the magic to work (in the same way that ancient people knew odd little snippets of science that were not attached to science of the era or was known as science but were useful enough on their own).
I am not sure how I will handle Dragons, I think an exodus to an off world location may be an option.
Thats Fantastic, I wish I had thought of that, its cool because A) it includes dragons in bestiary, and B) it leaves an awesome plot device later, the return of the dragons.
Also I can imagine a dragons frustration and fear as the world advanced, because they sleep for long periods this change would be clearer to them, he wakes up and burns a medieval town and they shoot arrows at it, he goes to sleep, he wakes up and burns a ton they fire balistas and crossbows at it, he goes to sleep, he wakes up and they fire flint lock muskets and cannons at him, they hurt! it flees, better not try that again,mankind is getting too strong for this to work.
due to their size and in some cases their arrogance, its not easy for them to move with the times, and so they will be left behind to an extent, this also gives them a reason to leave.
Well thought out!
until next time
As Terry Pratchett wrote (Badly Quoted), 'When you have to Worry about Dwarfs and Trolls, The colour of another mans Skin means nothing.'
Yeah, really badly quoted, but you get the Jist.
In this setting almost every major racial prejudice in history will probably be shifted to non humans as they are even more alien (in many ways in some cases), the genocide commited by the Third Reich would probably be based around demi-humans and non humans, (after all the jews would no longer be as good a scapegoat as those, inferior, cowardly, subversive, non **** demihumans).
The ku klux klan could have mebers of all nationalaties all united in theri crusade against those godless inferior demi-humans.
this is the reason why I feel there should be less non human races, because not only will they become the major focus of pogroms, genocide, ethnic cleansing, and other racially motivated killings and will as a result be more likely to be wiped out or driven into inhospitable places where they will not be able to thrive or maybe even survive (and not every individual has to die, numbers just need to drop to a critical level that within 10 generations there are not enough left to continue the species) and because some of them are SO alien, matters would probably be made much worse, because the difference are also more exaggerated, combine this with any elements of jealousy that might lead to persecution, the longevity of the elf in ancient times, their beauty, the superiors craftsmanship of dwarves (creating economic wealth as dwarves become rich from this, maybe they would be viewed as money grubbing and conspiritorial in take on many of the jewish racial sterotypes that anti semites have).
For example there were no large scale killings associated with the bubonic plague in europe (to my knowledge), however this may well be different if there are animalistic races living in europe, after all they are unclean arnt they, filthy, they spread disease, its their fault the plague happened, so what if they have been dying too? good, serves them right for bringing it upon us.
Which would do better in your mind,
Group A that accepts & allies with the Orcs.
Or Group B that sees them as abominations and wants to destroy Ork kind?
In armed combat group A would do better, other wise, Elves and Orks probably would have annihilated humanity centuries ago. Those cultures that embraced diversity would have a leg up on those that did not, that said prejudice & sterotypes would exist but I don't want to have had to much outright racial war because that would have ended badly for humans most likely.
To be blunt that is a race that I don't think humanity would win. Those cultures that were more accepting of Demi-humans thrived due to the diversity that they could muster.
I disagree, Many cultures have been inherently racist over the ages and this has not held them back, many western cultures had racist policies for centuries and still managed to become world superpowers, in fact the most advanced nations in the world are the USA and europe, who have performed many racial crimes, from the slave trade, to the geneocide of the tasmanians, the holocaust, the extermination of the aztecs, the supression of the native americans.
Racism does not equal weakness, if it did, world war 2 would have lasted 2 weeks, Nazi germany and its anti semitic policies still managed to become one of the major powers of europe, DESPITE, the bad economic situation it was in after 1919, despite anti semitism driving away many of Germanies scientists and intelectuals (Albert Einstein for a start).
and it is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
Group A that accepts & allies with the Orcs.
Or Group B that sees them as abominations and wants to destroy Ork kind?
In armed combat group A would do better, other wise, Elves and Orks probably would have annihilated humanity centuries ago. Those cultures that embraced diversity would have a leg up on those that did not, that said prejudice & sterotypes would exist but I don't want to have had to much outright racial war because that would have ended badly for humans most likely.
first of all Orcs bring their own problems, they are violent and agressive and as such any nation that accepts them must be violent and aggresive anyway (or will become more violent and aggresive), in these cases such cultures are probably already very militant and would probably put more emphasis on combat than others, and so would already be a little ahead before the orcs joined.
And becuase orcs are primitive and savage, the only races likely to accept them would also be primitive and savage, the idea of orcs in ancient greece, sitting listening to aristotle is comical, however its reasonable for an elf to have done so.
secondly Orcs are physically more powerful than the average human granted, BUT they are not strategists, they fight without skill or finesse and are undisciplined fighters, you could not draft Orcs into the Roman legions, although they would be fine as part of the Golden Horde of Khan.
Also a social judgement is being made that multiculturalism is somehow superior to singular culture, and although there are benefits to multiculturalism, there are an equal number of disadvantages, such as conflicts of interest and even simple incompatibilities of culture or mentality, the aggresive Orc mentality and culture would not be accepted among peacefull vegetarian Hindu culture.
There are also the balance issues, First of all all the races from the PHB are balanced, so 1000 humans is no stronger or weaker than 1000 elves or 500 elves and 500 dwarves, secondly the bonus to a culture of racial diversity in this context you probably refer to is greater specialisation,I.E Dwarf craftsman, Elf scholars, halfling pastry chefs etc
However Humanity has that covered with its extra skill ranks and bonus feat PLUS any favoured class, the whole benefit humanity has over the other races is the same benefit you claim they have over it, humans are great at specialising and at the same time retaining the wide base of skills and generaly high quality of specialised citizens, after all an elf scholar gets +2 Int, thats +1 to Int based skills and an extra skill point per level, a human scholar gets 4 extra skill points at first level and an extra skill point each level AND the opportunity to pick a skill focus, plus favoured class, expert, wizard, etc making the human scholar greater in my opinion, this works with every possibe specialised role, be it architect, general, craftsman, etc.
and as we are talking about culture, It would be reasonable to assume this set up might also occur
Group A accepts orcs
Group B hates orcs and wants to exterminate orcs as abominations
Group C is Dwarves and they hate group A and the orcs
Group A has a large number of very strong orc soldiers that can lay waste a few cities.
Group b hates orcs so much that evry human soldier has special training on how to kill them (like some demihumans have with giants and goblinoids), they study their tactics and find their weaknesses, in short you merely end up with a culture that might specialised "orc extermination" units, and whats more if the source of this hatred is religious then you create fanatisim and fervour (which will mean they probably produce more Paladin or militant clerics, due to the added emotional input).
Group C decides it hates orcs more than it hates group A, they form an alliance of convenience (like Hitler and Stalin did despite their ideologies being incompatible), and the combined might of group B and C crush group A and exterminate its orcs.
Orcs are a bad example, few societies could deal with the trouble they might bring (whether they cause it, or intolerence of them cause it), however elves are other more human looking races would do better, after all "when you have green savage pig faced people or scaly clawed lizard people to worry about who cares about pointed eared or a short bearded people).
Also not all races would be as aggresive, Orcs may want to wipe out humanity (they have failed in every other fantasy setting to do so) but I doubt Elves or Dwarves or halflings would want to (unless the leves are Drow in which case they would probably enslave them), also in a world with so many monstrous races, some of whom might be magical or dangerous in other ways there will be less xenophobia toward some demi-humans (the more human looking ones) because of alliances of convenience and common enemies (even the xenophobic imperium of mankind from warhammer 40k has Ogres and originally had dwarves as members, as well as sanctioned Pyskers, even though other Psyckers and mutants/non humans are purged on sight)
however with all that said, this would be amodern setting, and the issue of persecution in history would be looked back on with the same distaste as it is looked now, orcs would no longer be universally and institutionally hated (although some groups might skill hate them), and we can expect the same level of acceptance and tolerance as is shown in the real world.
However that said i think that it would be fair to say that Orcs would form a disproportianatly high prison population, however there may well be descent and civilised orcs that have overcome their nature and become civilised, there will always be orcs that could not.
it generaly ran as a debate between myself and another poster on idea of magic as science, versus magic as mysticism.
I will edit and reproduce some of it here to show my view on magic as science, because that seems the general consensus on here as to how magic should work, (thus avoiding having to translate real world occult traditions into the game, this can be done with minimal fuss, but will be more work and will no doubt only be appreciated by some)
(I have added some comments in italics and brackets for clarity)
originall posted by Myself...
Science is not the study of the material it is the study of reality and how reality works using a specific mode of inquiry, if magic exists then it is part of reality and can be studied using the scientific method.
Science depends on the scientific method (observation,analysis,explaination,communication), it searches for quantifiable data , tested repeatedly under laboratory conditions, it is not just information about the material universe, it is knowledge about reality, science denies magic (in the real world) not because it is a different discipline but because it does not exist, in a world where magic DOES work, a wizard can cast fireball under laboratory conditions, repeatably making magic quantifiable, (and observable) provable (and subject to analysis, as magic is the the effect of a wizard doing X Y and Z) ,its a fact of reality and can be incorporated into science and is studied as physics (and any other part of reality) would be studied, (forming a new discipline of science, Arcanology, Arcane physicics, Metaphysics, take your pick).
the claim that it has a different source (in that magic is powered by something outside of reality), has no basis in my opinion.
physical affects physical, that is technology, immaterial affects physical, that is magic, the laws governing and relationships between immaterial affecting physical, is physics.
For magic to work does not require a different source of energy, nor any form of unquantifiable quality (be it magical spark, or extrareality energy source), it merely requires energy transfers to work differently or for previously unconnected phenomena and events to become connected,
Desity = mass/volume, magical work done=thought energy applied/magnitude of work required multiplied by The arcane energy constant (this constant could be the amount of magical energy converted into physical energy, for example 1 thaum or unit of magical energy becomes x newtons, or x Kg),(this is an equation just to show easily magic intergrates itself into the language of science) if you were to rearrange this equation you would get very little magical energy from physical mundane items (which fits in with magic being able to alter the physical more easily than the physical being able to affect magic).
(in this universe or universes where magic works as I have explained)All things follow the law of conservation of energy, even magic, if magic requires even the slightest effort on the part of the wizard then an energy transfer has occured, the wizard requires energy to live, walking requires energy, spell casting requires energy (even if its only the chemical energy requires for muscles to move during casting), all that is needed is energy/physical relationships to be different.
for example, you throw a stone up onto a post, the stone moves through the air with kinetic energy, the stone lands on top of the post and stops, the stone sits there for 1000 years, it still has as much energy as it had when it was flying through the air, all that has happened is the kinetic energy has been converted into gravitational potential energy (with a moderate loss in forms of sonic and internal heat energy), (in the real universe if you want to think or will the rock down, you cant because thought is not capable of physical work, and neither is will, the phenomenon of kinetic energy may be connected to gravitational potential energy but it is not connected with thought or will "energy") now in a magical universe (there are different relationships between other kinds of energy) a wizard looks at the rock on the pillar and wills it to fall, his willing it fall requires time to concentrate, and the transfer of chemical energy (his own physical energy derived from eating food etc) into "thought" energy, through magical practices gestures, words etc, this "thought" energy is transfomed into "Will" or magical energy, magical energy is a FORM of energy (the same energy that light, sound movement, electricity is composed of, it merely has a different form) that exchanges at a high rate into all other forms of energy in the universe, the wizards magical energy is converted into kinetic energy which does work on the rock and pushes it off the pillar, consequently this high exchange is one way, where the wizard to take the energy (kinetic energy of the falling rock) from the rock and convert it back into magical energy it would be a negligible amount (this can be how wizards "recharge" they get into a trance and absorb the energy around them, lights grow dim, objects dont fall, the rooms gets colder, the magical energy gained from this is so low that it requires 8 hours to fully recharge, just an idea).
in that scenario, no "extra" energy was used (there was no energy brought in from an external place), it was merely converted differently and took a different form, any magic can be done this way Will converts into heat = fireball, will converts into kinetic energy= magehand,mage armour, will into matter = conjuration, and remember magic is only mysterious to the uniniated (I know this after a decade of occult research, the occult is understood by many occultists, but not by dabblers or the unenlightened onlookers), it follows laws and rules well known to the wizard, the same is said of science (and sometimes even they dont know all details, I remeber reading somewhere a famous physicist say "anyone who claims to understand quantum physics is lying! quantum physicists dont understand quantum physics").
This was just meant to give alittle detail on how magic as a science and not as an occult mystical force would work.
Incidentaly I have had an idea for a little detail in the setting, Salisbury arcane collage, this was an institute set up in the late 1890s to study the powerful magical energy known eminate from stonehenge, over the years it became a major source of arcane knowledge (despite relatively little progress on the study of stonehenge), and became a collage during the 1960s, it has one of the best reputations in the world (and is viewed as equal or even better than some of the world finest standard universities when it comes to magic).
in it magic particles are effected by magnetic fields
an emp strike will remove magic from the ares (as if dispelled) and such
I had a huge argument to post to you but I felt that it was just a tad too much and I just did not feel right about the post. I had some good points I thought but you said you were bored with it so I decided to leave this thread alone with our old discussion.
I may start some kind of philisophical scientific magic debate thread on one of the boards but I think I will wait for that. This seems to be another inapproprate venue to do such.
Now as for magic as science in the game world...
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You should decide what common magic items are sold and what would fall into a black market. +1 maybe. +1 Vorpral maybe not! What are the benifits to fire fighters that can resist fire or are immune to it. Perhaps an enless decanter/fire hose. Cops that can shout freeze and produce a hold person effect. Or true seeing to detect magical disguises and such.
Are ingredients neccessary? If so corprations will produce them! They will produce anything that can make a profit. Do they make exp farms in 3rd world countries to produce the magic by slaughtering creatures to use thier life energy, then sell the meat to people. Perhaps thier are magical environmental effects like negative energy radiation from so much magical death, or ozone imbalance due to massive fire spell use.
Is magic a rare abillity or a forum for study as if an evolved person may use
magic because of some special trait? I would assume it would be more of a forum for study and that most everyone could learn some magic if they tried.
Perhaps thier are magical pyramid schemes, or magical new wave religions. Magical fast track courses and scams. Magical diet pills and exercise machines that function like manuals of fitness or such.
Maybe there is a seperation in classification like how an unskilled labor worker is less valuable to a company then the guy who fixes the computers. Magic workers with mend could replace most of a trained maintanance staff. Repairs to objects would be more easy to manage and possibly very cheap to do requiring no new parts.
Magical health care and insurance issues as well as outdated methods becoming cheaper. Immortality seekers and cosmetic magic to make every person attractive is just a polymorph away. Gender or race could become unimportant to some and fetishes or desires fulfilled. Magical detox and drug addiction treatments. Magical Drug use. The reduction of disease to utopian levels or magical or magically resistant strains. New racial specializations in surgical fields. Lower death rate from these things means overpopulation but new magical ailments keep the population in balance maybe?
Top secret government classified magic and military procedures. Magical branch of the military like the army or navy but magic exclusive. Or MMD's (Magics of Mass Destruction.). Highly trained magical black ops teams on government salery. Restrictions on time travel and such.
Bard's who cast thorugh thier songs will become the pop sensations unless law prevents them from using thier abilities. Actors are nolonger limited by thier voice or body and only by thier abillity to preform to get roles. Television could become smell-evision. Virtual Reality could be handled in magically enchanted rooms that produce near realistics results.
Sports players found using magic items or spells to "juice up!" and preform better illegaly. Magical games could kill normal sports games or at least bring them low on the totem pole.
Small constructs used to do grunt labor like self running garbage gatherers or such may not be too expensive. Unskilled labor could end and artificial magical intellegence instead of in a sword or cape could be on your lap top. The net could become another realm of magic.
Are zone of truth spells allowed for if so who needs lawers since justice will be swift with neutral moderation of course. Magic may be contested in court or delay justice even if it violates rights of the defendant.
Rapid but dangerous memory modification or teaching could happen for enough money like in eternal sunshine of the spotless mind or learn to dance without lessons maybe. Perhaps the knowledge is only temporary and perminent fixes are more expensive or illegal.
Magical countermeasures for corperate espionage as a simple dominate is all it would take to get an inside man to steal for you and tell you secrets.
Fear of magic users as the people who don't use it feel pressured to do such perhaps there are magic free communities like the amish. Not neccessarally religious but just a distrust of magic in all its forms. Or maybe they only use the most primitive magic.
Wish fulfillment services of all kinds that may actually grant wishes for extreme fee's.
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Just a couple of Ideas. Hope you like!
To be fair, putting Orcs in place of Africans does work. Most slaves from Africa were sold by the leaders of the tribe that captured them, after all, and we already know (from the MM) that orcs practice slavery. It cuts them out of the European timeline, though; orcs would have been unknown in Europe until the Roman conquest of Africa.
It might be better to consider the orcs in light of an ethnic, rather than a racial category. To this day, anyone non-white makes less money than a white man with equivalent training and experience, and gets a lower-ranking job; this even shows up in sizeism, with fat people being hired less often. An orc might take a similarly dim view of his job prospects in a modern setting; even if he happens to have a college degree (orcs aren't that stupid, after all), it might be very difficult for him to get a job that doesn't involve backbreaking labor.
If we do that, it means that there would be an orc-equivalent in most areas of the world, and likewise elf, dwarf and other "ethnics" from the MM. This puts us back on even footing with the real world, and allows us to retain the old national differences. (As well as a great deal of history. African slaves would have been human and orc, all with darker skin than their European kindred. After all, look what a big deal skin color became in the real world...)
Admittedly, there was a lot of prejudice against other races in the old days (Ancient Greece forward). But yes, prejudice equals weakness. In Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, you had to be Greek or Roman by birth to qualify for citizenship; they fell because they were too specialized, with too narrow a field to pull from.
I disagree, Firstly because the romans had entire legions of non roman Goths, and other "barbarians" as well as making use of the skills of non romans through slavery, so citizenship doesn't mean that you don't contribute to society, it merely means you are not credited or rewarded for it, secondly generally the reason for the fall of the roman empire is considered to be that it grew to large for a centralised leadership to manage during that time,as communication over such distance was not easy, also the further from centralised government you go the more likely an empire is to erode from within due to corruption of local officials (safe in the knowledge that Rome is miles away) and the army is spread is so thin, that minor rebellions are a major threat to the stability of the region, which was one of the reasons for the splitting of the empire into east and western Roman empire.
The point I am making is that any advantage gained from diversity can be drawn from within the human race itself, that's humanities sole advantage, they are not bigger, stronger or more intelligent, they cant breath fire, or regenerate injury, they are simply very very adaptable, being able to specialize easily and yet maintain a general level of competence.
In the example using game mechanics,
if we create an Architect, or city planner (NPCs obviously, class skill are supposed to be comparatively rare).
An elf Expert you get +2 INT bonus, i.e. +1 to all knowledge skills, 1 extra skill rank per level)
A Human expert you get 4 bonus skill points at 1st level, 1 extra skill rank per level, one bonus feat (skill focus: knowledge Architecture and engineering +3 to all checks with this skill).
its plain to see that the human makes a better city planner (he will get higher results and can beat higher DCs), and due to his bonus skill points, and any favoured class should his city be attacked or life change in any drastic way, he has room to adapt, maybe spending his bonus skill points on survival, or taking a few levels of aristocrat or warrior and suffering no penalty for multiclassing.
The same scenario for a blacksmith or armorer
Dwarf versus Human
Dwarf gets +2 to crafts, and appraise
Human gets 4 bonus skill points, extra skill point every level and bonus feat (skill focus: Craft metalwork +3 bonus), the legendary skill that dwarves have as blacksmiths and craftsmen, is cultural not racial, its flavour, not mechanics, which in game terms means that if you take a dwarf out of his mountain city and leave him among non dwarves for a few generations, his cultural dwarveness diminishes (or integrates into mainstream society, which means humans would benefit from dwarven cultural specialization, without being dwarves and all he brings to the table is his racial bonus (which is no better than human specialization).
My Argument is not that non diversity is stronger than diversity, merely that humans can find this diversity within themselves and as such have no need to outsource, or find it from elsewhere.
And as for WWII, you do realize the only reason Germany didn't get the atomic bomb is because Einstein, being Jewish, "couldn't" be right? After everything was double-checked by "good, **** scientists", there wasn't enough time left in the war to actually make one.
That's not true, there are many reasons why Nazi Germany didn't get the bomb first, it was not because Einstein couldn't be right but because they alienated the Jewish intelligentsia (which Einstein was part of),(they weren't that stupid, Hitler sat and watched an African American win an event in the Berlin Olympics and Einstein had also won the Nobel prize for physics in 1921, in addition the scientific process and community does not work or function like that, even in Nazi Germany) , he left Germany because of anti-semitism in general, not because of lack of recognition or that they thought he was wrong.
And anyway, the USA wouldn't have even had an atomic bomb project if it was not for Leo Szilard (who convinced Einstein to help him convince the US government that it was crucial for the war).
In fact the process of Nuclear fission was discovered in Nazi Germany, without that, nobody would have been able to develop atomic weapons, and as this most important first step was taken in Germany under nazi rule, this does not imply that Nazi Germany were slouches when it came to science,in fact they may have built the bomb without Einstein and the fact that the Nazi's didnt not beat the US to it, was largely due to bad luck, and the effects of losing the war, such as the loss of their only heavy water supply in Norway due to resistance sabotage.
I mean you no disrespect Brownwolf, but your arguments seem to stem from modern moral zeitgeist, arguing from an idealist standpoint, rather than from a historic standpoint. however this is no bad thing as this is a modern setting and as a result your insight into the matter shows how the modern world would be in reference to this setting.
Regarding Orcs from Africa, I think this is a logical place for them, Orcs would be driven out of the civilised world and Africa is probably the only place with enough room for them settle, I have never felt that orcs were stupid!, they are uncivilized and savage, which is not the same thing, their intelligence probably takes the form of cunning on the part of the individual, as opposed to co-operation between individuals, the lack of culture among Orc kind is not due to lack of intelligence but simply their mentality, not their ability to think, but the way that they DO think.
This kind of cultural model has the advantage that the intense competition between individuals will make them self sufficient, pragmatic and independent, but also will root out the under achievers (meaning that you have a sort of ongoing non planned eugenics system) this competitive mentality also explains why orcs make war on other tribes of orcs, and why they tend to be largely harmless until a strong chief or other force turns up to unite them.
This savage "anti-social" behavior makes them less likely to be accepted by races that live in co-operative, "normal" society, and so they will be driven out and as Africa is such a huge place, with many rolling plains, it makes a good place for them to settle and they can carry on as normal, kicking the crap out each other.
Regarding magic, i don't think that an open approach to magic would particularly be the case, if magic existed under the feudal system, it would be a de-stabilizing element, the authority and power of the king can be threatened by anyone, therefore the first thing a king would do is ban magic (perhaps using religion as an excuse) or at least make it the sole province of the king (not even the aristocracy can be trusted), this would force magic underground for centuries (as it was in the real world), and would only re-emerge after an occult revival (which occurred in Europe in the real world just before the turn of the century, with the Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn, and followed by the neo-pagan Wicca movement).
The centuries of opposition and oppression of magic users, as well as the numerous scare tactic employed in ancient times, would have had an impact on mainstream culture and even as the culture becomes more accepting (like during the 1960s) there would still be deep-seated "traditional" and institution resistance to the full acceptance of magic (the same thing that happens in the modern world, ask any Pagan or occultist if they face persecution or hostility about their beliefs regarding magic and they will tell you it does happen, this is in the real world where magic is powerless, now give magic power and watch the hostility increase).
I suspect by the 21st century, in the case of the majority of ordinary people much of this hostility will have become, unease, and it would be accepted to the point that most people don't ask or think about it, but find the idea rather distasteful (rather like GM foods, or Genetic research).
because it is powerful it would be tightly controlled (in the same way firearms,alcohol, and other dangerous things are), I suspect all enchantment magic will be illegal (as a violation of civil rights, this extends to the police, how is a court to know that the zone of truth spell was not really a suggestion spell), it would be used covertly by criminals, politicians,Intelligence agencies and the like.
destructive magic like fireballs and lightning bolts etc, would be illegal, if you cant own a bazooka or a SAM silo, you cant know these spells.
necromancy would be banned partly because its dangerous but mostly due to the taboo element of it, although I can see it being very popular in ancient egypt (and would make archialogy a lot more exciting because evry tomb you open mummies come out), with many pharoahs becoming liches and being sealed in tombs free of distractions so they can find their afterlife or explore the multiverse through astral projection type spells, in fact the image of the mummified pharoah, with his gold ankh phylactery sat watching his tomb being built fits quite well.
transformational magic might be mostly OK, but have a lot of legislation attached such as its illegal to mimic another person (without full permission & copyright authority), or take a form that violates any health and safety laws.
healing magic may be used but depending on how this works in the setting (i.e.- if its divine only) may only be available to certain people by faith or require huge donations (because they can), as a result I am inclined to think that magical health care is only available to those with private health care (or if you are not in the UK, the best and most expensive hospitals), everyone else would have mundane medicine.
Divination would be mostly illegal (due to matters of privacy and national security), with occasional things let through, such as comprehend languages etc, again it would be used by intelligence organizations, but not police, as its not demonstrable as truth, after all if a policeman said he skryed the perpetrator committing the crime, he cant prove that).
As a result magi would be largely a big affair, government, military, cutting edge research, academia, but not a big part of everyday life, maybe the NFL would pay a druid so they can have good weather for a game (however it may be obligatory to have rain immediately after to maintain ecological stability), maybe spies or government agents would use magic or magic items, perhaps in the case of natural disasters and the like magic is used, maybe illusion would be used for entertainment (but that will have been done to death and probably lose appeal).
Teleportation and resurection magic might need to be banned spells (or maybe need to be epic spells) as these 2 spells have such repurcusions to history and societal stability that it would not be feasible to leave them in.
Prejduice is not logical, Giradius. It literally means "judging before". There is no logic to it, therefore logic has no effect upon it.
I have to go to work; more later.
Brownwolf: I thought I might offend you and the comment about arguing from moral views instead of historic fact may have come across as ruder than it was intended (I was going to edit that) what i actually meant was, that you are looking at it from an idealistic view of what it would ideally be like, not how it would actually be like, judging from history, from what you have said we probably agree on this matter.
Because the topic concerns racism its all to easy to misinterpret something and point a finger and label someone a racist (which i suspect you think i am) however this discussion was not me defending racism ,merely arguing that a racist culture in real world/fantasy setting would exist and probably last as long as any other culture.
I had more to add on some things to clarify my point, however you have highlighted something i was going to edit anyway so i will post them here, once I have answered your points.
Sorry, but no. The Goths overthrew Rome; they did not reinforce it. Rome was felled by the very "outlanders" they refused to accept.
Of course they did, but Rome was in decline long before that, and it doesn't alter the fact that before this happened there were non romans in military service (perhaps I was wrong about them being specifically Goths, maybe they were Ostrogoths? or some other romanized Germanic tribes).
It was also not as clear cut as that, there was no sudden demise, there was a slow decline (caused by reasons I mentioned) the Goth incident (as you mentioned) and the the roman empire split, and endured for a while longer.
This point actually highlights something i was going edit, about if the prejudice is actually racial or cultural, from what I understand the romans were culturally prejudiced rather than racial.
And yes, the Nazis could be that stupid; Hitler left the stadium rather than see another black man receive a gold medal.
Prejduice is not logical, Giradius. It literally means "judging before". There is no logic to it, therefore logic has no effect upon it.
To the first point, Hitler was not a scientist! neither was he a member of the scientific community, so he would have had no influence on scientific peer review (which is how its decided what is valid in science), and as i said, Einstein won a Nobel prize for physics, which would have impressed other German scientists if it did not impress Hitler (if he had even known about it).
The opinions of other scientists would have been less likely to be swayed by government policy, you also have to remember that not every Nazi was like Hitler, there were more tolerant and less tolerant Nazi's, the fact that he won a Nobel prize and his work revolutionized Physics would have been enough for the German scientists, who may not have been as sincere Nazi's as you may think.
Secondly, I never said prejudice WAS logical!, I merely argued against the statement that in a fantasy setting a racist culture could not survive and would be wiped out, it may not last forever, but no culture does.
I agree with you, "judging before" is illogical, foolish and unscientific(and as a trainee scientist i strive to be logical and rational), I think you have come into a thread half way and missed something in the previous posts.
The actual argument was not about right or wrongs of historic racism, just whether or not it would happen in a fantasy/real world setting, and i personally think It would, the same races and cultures that showed racism toward other humans, would most likely show it to non humans as well.
For the changes I was going to make, i will just post them as new points here...
Without considering moral issues racism is only a weakness when the victim race in question is able to provide some sort of tangible practical benefit to the offending race in a way that A) the offending race cant produce themselves, or B) can offer provide the benefit more easily or with less hassle, otherwise there is no weakness associated with the rejection, for instance take a race with a level adjustment (half dragon humans for example) what does your culture gain from accepting the tribal stone age Nibblepibblee's (Nibblepibblee medium sized humanoid, -3 to all attributes, +10 racial bonus to craft: snot extraction and collection), nothing, in this case racism is not a practical weakness because by being racist they have not lost or missed out on something useful.
You also have to look at what level the prejudice occurs on as well, for instance if its a cultural prejudice or racial prejudice, it might be logical to reject another culture due to incompatibilities (rival religions, different moral outlook etc) and yet find them racially acceptable.
Another point in this case is whether you define racism in this sense as total rejection, or inequality, in this latter case history agrees with me, Black people were considered inferior to white people many years ago, yet they were kept as slaves and so had at least some merit in the eyes of the slave owners, in fact any culture that has practiced slavery has acknowledged there is some use for what are perceived as inferior beings.
So in this situation you have a racist culture, that reaps the benefit of other races or cultures (such as using ogres for manual labour) with accepting or treating them as equals.
In fact the image of a roman galley with ogre slaves rowing comes quite easily, as do elven musicians, dwarf craftsmen,Orc gladiators, all these races slaves of Rome, they make use of their talents without giving the reward.
The other point is that the argument of racism as weakness is irrelevant anyway, because the fact that it is a weakness has never stopped it happening, in ancient or modern history, some people are willing to cripple or harm themselves for a principle (like a Jehovah witness who refuses a blood transfusion).
In summary my argument is...
Racism only becomes a weakness when accepting the race is beneficial to the host because they provide a benefit or can do something easier, a race of level adjustment beings with inherent spell like abilities gains nothing from accepting goblins into their society, as goblins can do nothing they cannot do themselves better.
Even if a culture does lose out, some races would rather cripple themselves than give up a principle, this does not automatically make them easy to wipe out, for example a nation of racist Frost giants.
A culture does not need to accept a race as equals or treat them fairly to benefit from them, any advantages diversity could provide to an accepting culture can also benefit a racist one through slavery and oppression.
Real world racism toward other subgroups of humanity indicate to me, that some groups would have racist views toward non humans (or humans).
I apologise to Brownwolf if he found me condescending or rude, it was not my intention, consider it a lack of skill with english as well as me being a tactless git.
Now on magic and the planes. Over use of magic is discouraged due to an Arcane phenominom known as dimensional wear. If you think of how if too many people walk over the same shortcut through the grass soon there is no grass there any longer, much the same can happen with over use of magic. This can lead to a weakening between the barriers to the Astral, Etherial, or Shadow planes.
The Asteral plane is the realm of thoughts and ideas, the spirits there are conceptual spirits. This includes most outsiders as moral views are at a certain level of mental abstraction. Sometimes there are guests, and I saw that you had not played In Nomine, so to describe how I might include it is that outsiders would hide the fact of their origins by wearing magically created human or demihuman bodies. Good outsiders do not want to interfere with free will and evil outsiders know that they would be opperating at a HUGE PR defficit. Also like In Nomine not all appear as you would expect them to, Searphs in that game are Dragon sized six eyed six bird winged serpents, cherubs winged animals like Wolves, Lions, Deer, and Dogs. Parts of this plane are where dreams occur.
The Etherial plane: This is the plane of the reflections of the natural world, (or lack there of.) Pristine areas seem EXTRA pristine, poluted areas, nightmares of filth and corrosion. Here the spirits of things are like elementals, and sprits representing animals or on the other hand toxic waste.
The Shadow plane: This is the realm of the dead, a used up version of the real world. Here ghost abound most are not malevolent, but being killed does tend to give one a grudge. Most say that they just need to do a few final things before they can - move on.
Yes this is heavely influenced by the world of darkness.
Oh final tidbit. There are no Warforged as a seperate race, instead there are the Lifeforged. Same statistics the only change is what is animateing them, this is a last effort to save the life of a dying individual. They are essentialy a form of full body prostetics. The patient must be transfered while their old body is still alive and on the verge of death. The bodies can only hold on to a spirit for at most 100 years, the soul seems to leave at the end of what a natural life span would be, as if the person expects to pass on then. Sensation is more limited, and they are technically sexless (though they can be made to resemble either gender in apperance and general shape. This problem is being worked on by large numbers of Arcane scientists, including one Dr. Steven Tillmont of the Minnesota Institute of Technology, who himself is a Lifeforged due to a drunk driver who blindsided him coming home from the lab. He is currently working on the issue to "return to old form."
Please allow me to weigh in on the races arguement by stating the group that sits by and watches say elves be wiped out by lupin then would probably see lupin (or humans, or orcs) turn on them.
That is most certainly true, however it would be equally true if a human group wipes out another human group.
Cultures that make a point of exterminating anything or anyone else, tend to be unpopular anyway and wars are usually inevitable in such cases, however there is a difference between a genocidal racist culture and an intolerant racist culture, war is unlikely because a country is intolerant (war is too expensive in terms of money and in lives).
As I said, I was working on a setting like this myself and because I tend to favour low fantasy in general, my setting will tend toward low magic, less demi-human, and other fantasy elements.
However even if we deviate on some points, there is a lot of common ground as our settings will have a lot of similarities, and it is these that we can work on, co-operatively.
For instance, in my setting Magic is not as common because:
A) Cultural resistance to it (I.E Religious taboo, ancient/traditional laws, general fear of the unknown), different cultures of course have different attitudes to magic.
B)Magic is difficult to understand and use this works in the same way that people use the fruits of scientific research, yet most people don't understand science, arcane scientists would exist in similar numbers as normal scientists.
The idea of kids learning basic magic at secondary (high) school, is as likely as kids learning quantum mechanics, magic is a complex discipline that requires years of university education. (in mechanical terms, magic will have a skill roll associated with its use)
C)Legal and control issues toward magic, in that it is tightly controlled with legislation because it can be dangerous. It is discouraged that ordinary people practice because of its destabilizing effect in terms of government, security and commerce (in the form of requiring permits, and all manner of licensing to practice), magical related crimes are punished VERY harshly and any magical criminal is usually made an example of, however despite this there are a number of underground magical movement that distributes magical texts and items illegally but these people are usually treated and viewed as terrorists (why else would you want to learn a fireball spell if not to blow something up), even the police force are limited in what magic they use and the police forces only magic users tend to be members of SWAT type sub groups that deal with magical criminals.
In addition to this, demi-humans are largely accepted although there is still occasional intolerance (just like in real life) but by and large there is racial equality, however some races are still prone to discrimination.
Orks receive a lot of prejudice and always have done, this is partly to do with their barbaric nature, but also because of their bestial features, they are the least human looking of the major demi-human races and so get a lot of flak for this, in addition they genuinely are a violent and aggressive race, and orks always make up a proportionally higher prison population, however there are always exceptions and a number of well educated and fiery orcs often campaign for orc rights.
In addition, certain templates have stigma attached to them, Lycanthropy is treated as a disease and anyone found to be infested is taken and locked up (for their own protection and the protection of others) in isolated custom built institutions (rather like mental asylums), undeath is treated as a disease also and many governments take the view that an undead creature has died and has therefore no legal rights, as a result they are not protected by law and are usually hunted down and killed by special squads of police and military, some more enlightened nations however are taking a more merciful view toward intelligent undead, and as such vampires and ghouls etc are registered (like sex offenders) and have to report daily for inspections at special centres, are usually given a humane version of what they need (vampires receive blood that has been donated for that purpose by sympathizers, ghouls are given rotten animal meat, these things don't satisfy but sustain their life) they are watched by the police and if they harm anyone they lose their rights, are removed from the list and treated as they would be anywhere else and killed.
(edit: In fact I am considering creating a vampire character who I am thinking of calling Steven Drexler that is used a case study by pro-humane campaigners, he was a registered vampire that became a suspect in a murder case and went missing, the police force sent out their specially equipped squads on a huge manhunt and killed him, however it was later found that he was innocent of the crime and went on the run in fear of his life, it is also commented on that while he was on the run no one was killed in a manner suggesting a vampire attack, (I can imagine a protest with banners saying things like "remember steven drexler" and "drexler was innocent" very easily). The rivals of these civil rights type groups, often site cases of registered vampires that do kill and are protected by law, the public debate is ongoing)
Will non humans have their own distinct cultures? or will the difference between races be purely physiological? will non human races have the diversity of humans, will there be oriental Elves, Black dwarves etc
Personally i favour the approach that non humans have their own cultures and racial identity, and in my setting i will be building in non human nations alongside human nations or usurping real world cultures for non humans, this more easily done for me because demi-humans are less numerous than humans and so i don't have to worry how I am going to fit a 50 million strong civilization into a world already crowded with civilizations.
However just like in real world history many cultures will share elements with allies and neighbors (such as roman culture adopting parts of greek culture) and thus within certain regions there will be an element of cultural blending.
Historically Elves will have occupied heavily forested areas of Europe and as such elven nations will have existed in ancient Britain (where they lived in peaceful co-existance with Celts, and there was a lot of cultural blending, I.E the Celtic druidic religion originally came from the elves), as well parts of France and Germany and heavily forested parts of eastern Europe (such as Romania).
Dwarves will still have historically lived in subterranean cities beneath the more mountainous areas of the world, as such there were Dwarven nations in the Scottish highlands, the alps, the Pyrenees and the kjolen mountains in Norway, there was also a lot of cultural exchange (although less than the elves as the dwarves were more reclusive) among neighboring human nations, maybe the Kjolen dwarves taught the Viking to make chainmail etc, as a result the majority of dwarfs speak with accents reflecting their dwarven nations location (dwarves with Scottish and Norwegian accents being very common :D)
Orks were driven out of more densely populated areas of the world and settled mainly in Africa, parts of Asia , Russia, parts of south America and in short anywhere that there are large rolling plains, jungles or wastelands. Due to their aggressive and tribal culture, there was little cultural exchange and so not much was known about them, orks also seem to lack a racial identity (one of the reasons they are just as likely to fight among themselves) but have tribal affiliations, however after the industrial revolution and when orks started to migrate and become part of the world, this racial identity began to develop (partly due to the intolerance of non orks, but also because there was strength in numbers), ironically in the modern world it is orks that have integrated most of all into their hosts culture (partly because Elves and Dwarves are proud of their culture and heritage but also because they have no real culture of their own) tribal affiliation has lessened and become more akin to regional pride (like people who proudly call themselves Geordies, Texans, new Yorkers etc) and the extend of tribal loyalties tends to be what football team they support and what banner they have mounted in their living rooms.
The possibilities of this setting are amazing,
some interesting images that come to mind are...
The frost beards, an all dwarf Ice Hockey team.
An Elven fashion designer most famous for his Leaf and Earthtone collections, and whose designs feature many natural motifs and are modelled by eleven fashion models.
Albert Einstein, now not only one of the greatest physicists who ever lived but also one of the greatest wizards.
A Dwarven automotive company that makes cars of exceptional quality and workmanship.
The Allgreens, an Orcish Rugby (or American football) team
A number of celebrity Elven socialites (in the style of Paris Hilton and Tara palmer-Tomkinson)
An orcish action movie star, I imagine him as an orcish version of Sly Stallone or Vin Diesel (who I imagine would appreciate it, as he is a massive D&D player), who as part of a community service sentence (for biting a reporter) gives talks to Orcish youths about the importance of education and avoiding gangs.
Orc punk and Thrash metal bands called things like Ghazkul and the guttersnipe, Urk'hu-Vhaz (Orcish for the bloodied ones)etc.
A Dwarven biker group similar to hells angels called the Ironwheels.
Elven game show hosts and TV presenters.
The famous Victorian industrialist and engineer Isambard kingdom Brunel as a dwarf (he was very short in real life and wore an oversized top hat to compensate)
William Shakespeare as an Elf.
the list goes on.
Will non humans have their own distinct cultures? or will the difference between races be purely physiological? will non human races have the diversity of humans, will there be oriental Elves, Black dwarves etc
Personally i favour the approach that non humans have their own cultures and racial identity, and in my setting i will be building in non human nations alongside human nations or usurping real world cultures for non humans, this more easily done for me because demi-humans are less numerous than humans and so i don't have to worry how I am going to fit a 50 million strong civilization into a world already crowded with civilizations.
However just like in real world history many cultures will share elements with allies and neighbors (such as roman culture adopting parts of greek culture) and thus within certain regions there will be an element of cultural blending.
Historically Elves will have occupied heavily forested areas of Europe and as such elven nations will have existed in ancient Britain (where they lived in peaceful co-existance with Celts, and there was a lot of cultural blending, I.E the Celtic druidic religion originally came from the elves), as well parts of France and Germany and heavily forested parts of eastern Europe (such as Romania).
Dwarves will still have historically lived in subterranean cities beneath the more mountainous areas of the world, as such there were Dwarven nations in the Scottish highlands, the alps, the Pyrenees and the kjolen mountains in Norway, there was also a lot of cultural exchange (although less than the elves as the dwarves were more reclusive) among neighboring human nations, maybe the Kjolen dwarves taught the Viking to make chainmail etc, as a result the majority of dwarfs speak with accents reflecting their dwarven nations location (dwarves with Scottish and Norwegian accents being very common :D)
Orks were driven out of more densely populated areas of the world and settled mainly in Africa, parts of Asia , Russia, parts of south America and in short anywhere that there are large rolling plains, jungles or wastelands. Due to their aggressive and tribal culture, there was little cultural exchange and so not much was known about them, orks also seem to lack a racial identity (one of the reasons they are just as likely to fight among themselves) but have tribal affiliations, however after the industrial revolution and when orks started to migrate and become part of the world, this racial identity began to develop (partly due to the intolerance of non orks, but also because there was strength in numbers), ironically in the modern world it is orks that have integrated most of all into their hosts culture (partly because Elves and Dwarves are proud of their culture and heritage but also because they have no real culture of their own) tribal affiliation has lessened and become more akin to regional pride (like people who proudly call themselves Geordies, Texans, new Yorkers etc) and the extend of tribal loyalties tends to be what football team they support and what banner they have mounted in their living rooms.
The possibilities of this setting are amazing,
some interesting images that come to mind are...
The frost beards, an all dwarf Ice Hockey team.
An Elven fashion designer most famous for his Leaf and Earthtone collections, and whose designs feature many natural motifs and are modelled by eleven fashion models.
Albert Einstein, now not only one of the greatest physicists who ever lived but also one of the greatest wizards.
A Dwarven automotive company that makes cars of exceptional quality and workmanship.
The Allgreens, an Orcish Rugby (or American football) team
A number of celebrity Elven socialites (in the style of Paris Hilton and Tara palmer-Tomkinson)
An orcish action movie star, I imagine him as an orcish version of Sly Stallone or Vin Diesel (who I imagine would appreciate it, as he is a massive D&D player), who as part of a community service sentence (for biting a reporter) gives talks to Orcish youths about the importance of education and avoiding gangs.
Orc punk and Thrash metal bands called things like Ghazkul and the guttersnipes, Urk'hu-Vhaz (Orcish for the bloodied ones)etc.
A Dwarven biker group similar to hells angels called the Ironwheels.
Elven game show hosts and TV presenters.
The famous Victorian industrialist and engineer Isambard kingdom Brunel as a dwarf (he was very short in real life and wore an oversized top hat to compensate)
William Shakespeare as an Elf.
the list goes on.
And yes I did think of things like that too.
Speaking of punk bands on this plane about half of Boston's the Dropkick Murphys are irish halflings, and there are plenty of proud "leprechans" who are their fan's as well. (Leprechan was the regional term for halflings on E-Wrath and is still used in Ireland and in Irish communities today.)
A certain demi-humans adopt or at least sympathize with and tend to hang out with their international counter parts if they are few in number. For example the "Skaven" (Euopean Rat men), were persecuted and attecked so viciously that they feel more comfortable arround Asian "Nezumi" and tend to learn Asian languages frequently as second and third languages.
Also to limit magic, consider Cityscapes rules for Arcane polution as well as the "dimensional thinning" I mentioned in an earlier post.
I like the leprechaun thing for halflings, nice touch:D
The Skaven thing as well makes a lot of sense (they would be blamed for the bubonic plague or any other infectious outbreak or epidemic, like typhoid etc)
so the races have no distinct cultures of their own, they blend into human society?, is your idea more like rather like shadowrun with goblinisation, in that non-humans did not evolve seperatley but in ancient times (very ancient) humans mutated and became elves and dwarves and orcs etc?
like the idea of arcane pollution.
Cool,
(snip)
so the races have no distinct cultures of their own, they blend into human society?, is your idea more like rather like shadowrun with goblinisation, in that non-humans did not evolve seperatley but in ancient times (very ancient) humans mutated and became elves and dwarves and orcs etc?
Actually they do have a "spin" on their regional culture. The idea of entirely seperate culture I find hard to buy in real life, as there is blending and diversity amongst current cultures. There is such a thing as Latin American culture yes, but there is also such a thing as Mexican versus Peruvian culture, (and Northern Mexican versus Southern Mexican). There are similarities and differances within each, same with sub-groups by class and other ethnicity in the real world. The demi-Humans would be along similar lines.
I would also have the various groups have their own evolutinary lines, especialy animal like ones like Litroans, Nezumi, Gnolls & Lupin. A few extinct missing links and there we go.
The problem is, what does and does not benefit the race, the city and the nation?
Are elves beneficial? Certainly, as long as living for well over a century allows you to accumulate information. Knowledge is power, after all.
Are dwarves beneficial? Certainly, as long as they can mine; with a culture built around mining, their collected knowledge would be amazing.
Now what about orcs? Gnolls? Goblins? Are they beneficial?
The answer, surprisingly, is yes. The existence of other peoples improves the state of the economy by providing more customers and vendors. The existence of diversity within a group allows for a more flexible group; homogeneity does not provide a wide pool of potential from which to draw. Gnolls may want to eat people, but they're also willing to buy goods... as long as you bring a good number of guards. Orcs have a tribute system; they'll buy goods as well. Goblins? Believe it or not, theft can be a mild stimulant to the pulse of commerce.
Now what else do they bring to the table? Gnolls favor the Ranger class; they can provide natural goods better than others. Orcs favor warrior/barbarian; they'll be good mercenaries for those unscrupulous or poor enough to use them. Goblins? Remember, goblins are famed for their traps.
Overall, the only race that doesn't bring anything to the table would be dragons; they prefer to be all "take" and no "give", given their hoarding instincts. All others promote commerce and provide differing strengths.
(Honestly, making up the Nibblepiblee on the spot was a bit intellectually dishonest, wouldn't you say? Funny, yes, but dishonest. If you have to create an utterly worthless example race to prove your point, your point needs to be sharpened.)
(half-smile) And no, I don't think you're a racist. I think you're wrong, or I wouldn't be on the other side of the argument from you; that's rather a different thing. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm going to start calling you names.
Kobolds
A few thoughts on Kobolds.
Sure in typical D&D they are hostile and cowardly because attack in groups, but from thier prospective this is because the rest of the world is filled with terrifying giants. One man's cowardace can be another's prudence. This to me suggest a relatively prudent nature which has led many of them to be sought after for employment in child care services. First they are as responsible as adults but kid sized, and full of cautionary tales of the dangers of wandering away or talking with strangers.
Also despite thier standard D&D reputation for "cowardice" for wanting to attack with overwhelming numbers, many of them have found the various world militaries to be quite to thier liking. Barraks is like thier traditonal commumal living, and in modern military tactics, there is nothing "unchivliaous" for fighting with overwhelming numbers and firepower. Also being small and frequently naturally earth toned makes them ideal snipers.
Brownwolf:
Are elves beneficial? Certainly, as long as living for well over a century allows you to accumulate information. Knowledge is power, after all.
Their long lifespan is an advantage, however they take longer to mature, and with the invention of writing (which means that knowledge does not die with its originator), knowledge can be effectively passed on, in fact a single person working on something for centuries is more likely to become stuck in their ways, less prone to change, and therfore more likely to stagnate (often a problem of long lived races in the fantasy genre), where as several shorter lived creatures approaching the same problem will be more dynamic, each new person bringing a fresh perspective, a new outlook.
But i agree with you on this, long life is beneficial, and a nice luxury, but civilizations have thrived without longevity, both in the real world and in fantasy.
Are dwarves beneficial? Certainly, as long as they can mine; with a culture built around mining, their collected knowledge would be amazing.
Absolutely, I have always been a big fan of dwarves, and regret that i have not played many, however this is a cultural benefit, not a racial one, and a human apprentice to a dwarven master miner would be just as effective given time and training as a dwarf would, again, humanities advantage is its ability to specialize.
Now what about orcs? Gnolls? Goblins? Are they beneficial?
The answer, surprisingly, is yes. The existence of other peoples improves the state of the economy by providing more customers and vendors. The existence of diversity within a group allows for a more flexible group;
Hmmmmm, you called me intellectually dishonest, yet do not refrain from it yourself, the bonus to the economy would result no matter what race the citizenry are, Orcs, Gnolls, Goblins, have no inherent bonuses when it comes to commercialism, and the economic effect and gross national product etc of 10,000 humans will be the same as that of 5000 humans and 5000 orcs.
Economic benefit is the result of free citizenship, NOT racial/cultural diversity, gold is not racist and money speaks all languages, the only difference is that orcs and gnolls etc are likely to buy different products and thus the range of products traded is higher, but not the overall value or volume.
and i agree that diversity allows for greater flexibility, i never said otherwise, i just argued that this diversity can be found within humanity itself.
homogeneity does not provide a wide pool of potential from which to draw.
It hasn't done the human race much harm!, we have not accepted the domestic dog or cow as equal citizens and humanity has done a good job providing whats needed when it comes to culture building, (to the point that its safe to say that human being are without question the most powerful species on the planet)
Gnolls may want to eat people, but they're also willing to buy goods... as long as you bring a good number of guards.
Again there is a straw man here, Gnolls are willing to buy goods, but so are humans, and most humans don't want to eat each other, the problem here is that you awarded an economic benefit to having gnolls in a city, on the assumption that the same economic benefit cannot be gained by another human coming to live there.
and these guards you mention, city watch, militia, who pays for these?, taxes are taken from the people and used to pay for police forces and state security, therefore more crime, more police, more police needs more money spent, which either means more taxes OR less money for other things, so any economic benefit gained from having another consumer as part of the system is lost because that extra consumer requires more city watch to stop him "consuming" other consumers.
A rather amusing image presents itself of a gnoll in a suit wearing a powertie, who has climbed the ladder and risen to be head of a major corporation by eating his immediate superior.
a plush meeting room with a large table a board of directors sit around it nervously and look at CEO Hruuthgairk bonesnapper, the rather fat looking gnoll sat at the head of the table who has a piano tie hanging out of his mouth.
from the D20 SRD: Gnolls are hyena-headed, evil humanoids that wander in loose tribes. Most gnolls have dirty yellow or reddish-brown fur. A gnoll is a nocturnal carnivore, preferring intelligent creatures for food because they scream more.
These creatures would rather wait for you to buy it and then kill you and take it, why would you assume that a race that likes its dinner to scream, would even be capable of living in a lawful society that frowns upon such things?
Orcs have a tribute system; they'll buy goods as well. Goblins? Believe it or not, theft can be a mild stimulant to the pulse of commerce.
Orcs buy goods, so does any other citizen regardless of race!
and as for goblins and theft being a mild stimulant, I could not agree more, merchants hiring bodyguards, security, paying for traps and masterwork locks, and these locksmiths spending their hard earned coin, of course crime can indeed oil the wheels of commerce, however the thieves guild is just as good at it as goblins are, so yet again the benefit you ascribe to goblins can be given by any race.
Now what else do they bring to the table? Gnolls favor the Ranger class; they can provide natural goods better than others. Orcs favor warrior/barbarian; they'll be good mercenaries for those unscrupulous or poor enough to use them. Goblins? Remember, goblins are famed for their traps.
Gnolls favour ranger class, Humans favour ANY class, and get a bonus feat
Orcs favour Warrior/barbarian, Humans favour ANY class and get a bonus feat
Goblins re famed for their traps, a human with a level of expert, craft: Traps skill and bonus skill points for synergy skills (knowledge, engineering maybe) and his free feat skill focus: craft traps, can do just as well as a goblin.
Overall, the only race that doesn't bring anything to the table would be dragons; they prefer to be all "take" and no "give", given their hoarding instincts. All others promote commerce and provide differing strengths.
hmmmmm, I agree with you here, although a dominated or subdued dragon would make a good defender for a city as they are one of the mightiest creatures of all.
(Honestly, making up the Nibblepiblee on the spot was a bit intellectually dishonest, wouldn't you say? Funny, yes, but dishonest. If you have to create an utterly worthless example race to prove your point, your point needs to be sharpened.)
not at all! my point was not blunt, I just think you missed it!
the nibblepiblee was to illustrate that diversity is only beneficial when the other races actually have something to offer or contribute, the nibblepiblees don't, so therefore they bring nothing to the table.
diversity IN AND OF ITSELF, offers no benefit, it only becomes worthwhile if the other races are willing or capable of making a contribution on the same level, i could just have easily have compared any standard race with any intelligent race that has a good LA, half dragons for instance, in order for diversity to be an advantage the races need to be equal for the benefit to be worthwhile.
(half-smile) And no, I don't think you're a racist. I think you're wrong, or I wouldn't be on the other side of the argument from you; that's rather a different thing. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I'm going to start calling you names.
Glad to hear it, and we are all grown ups here, there's is nothing wrong with a little light debate or argument, in fact I like to be challenged, it allows me the luxury to find holes in my arguments, to learn from the insights of my opponent, and we are all here because we have something in common, we are a community, and we want to create and explore new horizons, so i welcome and don't lament your opposition, i believe just as firmly that i am right, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, we aren't deciding government policy here, our difference of opinion has no lasting side effect, and because of the nature of the game, there is no right or wrong opinion anyway, if i run a game the roman empire will be exclusivly humans as citizenry and non humans will be slaves, it makes no difference because by 2008, orcs and dwarves will be integrated into mainstream culture anyway and treated as equals for the most part, its a minor detail.
For instance, gnolls in the area (for obvious reasons, I don't think the average gnoll would be allowed in the average city... but the CEO made me laugh) would stimulate the weapons business and weapons training classes, most obviously. People will want to protect themselves.
But now look at what the gnolls will buy.
To begin with, any clothes they buy will have to be custom-tailored; they're not entirely humanoid, no matter what edition you're in, and they're 7'6" tall on average. Cloaks for hunched backs, boots for digitigrade feet, pants with a hole for their tail (assuming they have them in your campaign; I know DMs vary), helmets to fit muzzled heads, etc.
Now, assume gnolls have a hyena's eyesight, more or less. That means high light sensitivity (they're nocturnal, after all), but a limited color vision that focuses on blue and green and falls off around the yellow-red end of the spectrum (according to the measurements of the Calderone study).
With that in mind, we know that gnolls will favor blues, greens and dark colors; a whole new market for fabrics and dyes.
Orcs, by contrast, will favor the unpleasant colors they're known for: Blood red, rust red, mustard yellow, etc. Finally, a market for the cheap fabrics and dyes! They can wear most human-style garments reasonably well, though, since they're very close to human in size and shape. Of course, those who actually do business with humans will probably want a wide-brimmed hat...
Finally, goblins top out at around 3'6"; they'll be shopping at the same tailor shop as the halflings. Since they favor drab colors, you can get rid of the cheap black and brown dyes at a profit.
Are there risks? Of course. Goblins favor a "five-finger discount", orcs prefer to bash your head in and take what they want, and gnolls... well, "business lunch" comes to mind. (I really did like that image of the gnoll CEO, yes.:D )
But overall, the presence of other peoples, other nations, stimulates the economy.
Now, can humans do everything the other races do, and do it better? Well, yes. But humans aren't as focused.
For instance, gnolls favor Ranger; that means that any natural goods will be cheaper from the gnolls than from other races, simply because they have more Rangers to collect them. Conversely, orcs and goblins have availability on their side; it's a lot easier to find an orcish warrior or a goblin trapmaster, simply because there are more of them. (It's like trying to find an Elven Ranger, a Dwarven Fighter, or a Halfling Rogue. You'll find a lot more, simply because they focus in that one area.)
(Of course, racial substitution levels have changed that "humans are the ne plus ultra" situation a little. Gnoll Ferocity (Races of the Wild) gives gnoll barbarians an extra weapon in the form of their toothy muzzles, and house-ruled RSLs could vastly improve the gnolls' ranger status likewise.)
So having multiple races is still a boon to the economy.
I do of course take your point about the effect that non humans will have an the economy, every market is different some generate a lot of revenue other generate less but is more numerous (goldsmith and woodcutter for example), and the presence of alien mind sets among a human populace will change the balance somewhat and open up new markets or expand existing niche markets.
In an ancient context this wont happen as much because the general level of goods back was quite poor, resources were not available, technology was advanced enough for the quality of manufacture we have now, for instance in ancient times dyes and fabrics were very limited and as such people wore what was practical, the idea of fashion was reserved only for the aristocracy, so natural preferences on color and texture would most likely not enter into a decision on what clothes will bought (I doubt many gnolls would buy clothes, they come with a built in fur coat).
Ancient people were far more pragmatic than people are now, most ancient foods make use of offal, almost everything was used because the lack of technology made coming across resources more difficult, i suspect the discovery of coke came about by accident (as someone was trying to burn wood they had already burned), the priorities of people were much different as they were lucky to live past 40, so in that sense any "barbaric" goods that would appeal to non humans like offal, rough animal hides,etc, would be used by ancient humans as well.
But...
In a modern situation this wouldn't happen, offal is now generally not used in domestic level cookery (some countries are an exception, often poorer ones), and as a result in the western world offal is considered a waste product by butchers, but why throw it out when he can make a quick few quid and sell it to that that nice woman who is a PA to some director at "cacklecorp" who will make a nice smoothie out of it and give it to her CEO "in an attempt to stop him eating her, like he did with the last 3 PA's he has had".
Modern technology provides the means to plenty, and as such the effect of non humans stimulating niche markets is vastly increased, in addition things that were previously not profitable because of their "luxury" status in ancient time become viable markets due to the extra money that modern people have to spend, a culture esthetic becomes a marketable commodity and you end up with "ethnic" jewelry, art, cuisine, music (an image comes to mind of a chain of orcish fast food restaurants called McMokh's that serve a variety of unsavory looking meat burgers in buns), these kind of business do well because they cater to non humans living among humans that are keeping their roots but also to humans with an interest in such things.
however the niche markets created by non humans will still be subject to the economic law of supply and demand and competition, if there are gnolls in a city, that means there is a need for custom fitted gnoll shaped clothes, if there is a demand someone will try and meet that demand, in sufficient numbers this makes the "gnoll clothes" industry lucrative and will attract more business men, who then start undercutting competitors to grab a larger share of the customer base, this leads to a drop in a price which may stimulate the market a little and is good for the consumer but not as good for the small business man, in this scenario big business wins out over small independent business and corporations are born.
Finally, my only point in raising this issue in the first place was not that a purely human society would do better, merely that its disadvantage would not be great enough to see it wiped from the face of the earth, or obscured in history by brighter cultural stars, I personally don't feel one is superior to the other, they have an equal number of merits in my opinion and both would be valid models for a society to follow (in terms of how successful a society can be in areas like wealth,military,technology etc).
But as I said last time, as a modern setting it would be safe to say that non humans are accepted by the majority (there will be racist minorities on all sides, human and orc supremacist for instance), many cultural and niche markets will be open to cater to non humans (some of which may even be popular with humans, in the same way that anime has a large following in western countries, the popularity of Chinese epics among western people, and of cheesy 80s pop in some eastern countries), I can see orcish tribal fetishes and design being popular among street gangs, elven music and language being common among new agers and progressive types, perhaps even dwarven being used widely as a technical language by mechanics and engineers.
Is the magic of this setting based on the fantasy staple of "instant" magic, in that a few gestures and magic words are sufficient to build up the magical forces required launch a fireball, or change form?
Or are we going down a more subtle and restrained approach in that most spell are rituals that take time and effort to cast?
I personally favour a mix of both,
However with rituals you have to look at what the ritual consists of, what is the arcanist doing during the ritual? what symbolism is used? etc, which leads us back to a more occult view of magic rather than the arcane physics view.
one way in which to strike a balance between the two is to redesign the magic user classes slightly.
I have had some thoughts on this...
First of all the wizard mechanics are dropped (also partly because the memorizing of spells is counter intuitive sacred cow stuff) and instead the spontaneous spellcaster model is used, dropping spell slots in favour of power points (as per the variant rules in unearthed arcana) is a topic of discussion, I have always preferred it myself.
What you do then is create "paradigms" you could also call them "paths" or "traditions" and these are basically the modus operandi of the spellcaster for working magic, but is also the view that caster takes on magic, its origins, its nature, what is right or wrong in magical terms.
The practical effect of these paradigms is that the magic user gains bonus spells from it (like a clerics domains, but are culturally linked instead of thematically, and these spells are added to your known spell list), it might dictate what class skills the character has representing certain areas of focus that the paradigm has, what ability score magic use is derived from,and also provides feats or class features as the magic user becomes knowledgeable of the more advanced forms of their paradigms magical system.
what you have is something like this...
The Paradigm magician
same BAB, save progression, spells per day (or equivalent points) as a sorcerer,
class skills:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge arcana (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
at level 1 a paradigm is chosen,
at level 5,10,15 and 20 is a feature called advanced learning 1-4.
Advanced learning is a feat (such as modified reserve feats) or class feature (like the red wizards circle mastery) that can be chosen from a list that is specific to each paradigm, when you gain the Advanced learning 1 feature, chose a feature from the advanced learning 1 list.
To balance these bonuses there is a drawback, paradigm magi are limited in their sources of knowledge and arcane power, as they can only learn from sources of knowledge that have the same paradigm, they can also only use magic items that are crafted using the same paradigm,effectively once a paradigm is chosen all of their spells gain a subschool, and they can only learn spells from the same subschool the same goes for items.
A wiccan mage can only learn spells from another wiccan mage, and can only use items created by wiccan mages, he reason for this is the frame of reference and also belief system, an arcane physicist trying to teach a spell that uses the Myradin configuration of energy and uses the equation for the arcane potential constant as the means to focus concentration and energy to a wiccan is likely to be met by puzzlement on the part of the wiccan who then says something like "configurations and equations? magic is the lifeforce, a living energy, the soul of Gaia, it cant be contained by maths and science".
This also encourages paradigmed mages to seek out others of their paradigm and to join covens, lodges, institutes, cabals etc as a source of magical learning and items.
an example of how a paradigm would be laid out is.
Kabbalah
Kabbalah is the ancient mystical tradition of Judaism, legend has it that its origins are with Moses who gained knowledge of the kabbalah on mount Sinai, it stresses that magic is possible through applying the divine spark and invoking names of power (many of the names of God) and that through the use of magic and self perfection (the great work) it is possible to reunite with God in this lifetime, it is focused around a symbol called tree of life, which serves as map of creation that begins with Kether (crown) at the top and descends to become Malkuth (kingdom) at the bottom.
The Kabbalistic tradition tends toward lawful good/neutral, they derive their spells from their wisdom score, its magic focuses on the summoning of celestial beings (who obey the kabbalist regardless of alignment), divination, and talismans.
Paradigm skills: (the kabbalist chooses 3 of these skills and they become class skills)
knowledge: Religion (Judaism), the Planes, History (Semitic) (int) , Bonus language Hebrew, celestial
Paradigm Bonus spells
1- protection from evil/chaos
2- owls wisdom
3- magic circle against evil/chaos
4- summon monster IV (celestial only)
5- Legend lore
6- Banishment
7- Summon monster VII (celestial only)
8- Planar ally (greater)
9- Summon monster IX (celestial only)
Advanced learning 1.
Paradigm focus: +1 caster level for your paradigm spells
Favoured magical foe feat: from complete divine (fiends only)
Celestial summoning specialist feat: from the planar handbook
Advanced learning 2-
magic sensitive: from complete mage
Metamagic feat
Celestial heritage feat: from the planar handbook (represents the kabbalists growing connection to the divine through the the great work)
Advanced learning 3-
Words of creation: from book of exalted deeds (very apt for this tradition)
Advanced learning 4-
Perfect self: Kabbalist gains the celestial subtype (native outsider)
of course this is just an example, but as you can see the concept of arcane paradigms is not overly confusing and allows for some interesting customization options.
it also fits with the view that magic is the same no matter who uses it, but the way it is utilized is seldom uniform, and the focus and direction that magic takes in regard to culture. Some perform magic by drawing runes, others by performing dances, others by recitation of mantras, or equations, but the magic has the same effect.
some ideas for paradigms are...
Arcane Physics (Arcanology)
The kabbalah
Wicca
Galdr (ancient Norse magic)
Native American shamanism
Voodoo
Chaos magic (not actually anything to do with "Chaos" in a D&D sense)
Black magic (the black mass, goat of mendez ,human sacrifice , roger cormen style witch)
Druidry (not the same as the D&D class, but the pre-roman Celtic mysticism)
Technomancy (born out of chaos magic, these mages take a traditionalist view of magic but use modern methods and paraphernalia, like computers, electric lamps etc)
then of course you can create non human paradigms and traditions like...
Orcish shamanism
Dwarven artifice
Elven Solar magic
Gnomish magic
Drow sorcery
Yaun-ti magic
Dragon magic
Skaven blight magic
many of these also provide good ideas for prestige classes as well.
Haggis: Oatmeal and offal, cooked in a sheep's stomach. Scottish.
Chitterlings: Boiled pig intestines, fried. American Southern.
Silit: Fried pork intestines. Filipino.
Chicharon Bulaklak: Deep-fried pork intestines. Filipino.
Balmoral chicken: Chicken stuffed with haggis and wrapped in bacon. Scottish.
Then there's British food, with beef tongue, stewed brains, blood pudding... there's a reason the kid in the movie "My Best Friend is a Vampire" could buy blood from a butcher shop, after all. Bonesnapper's, um, "high-protein" smoothie will be cheaper than most. ;)
As for medieval life expectancy, most of that is infant mortality; those who lived to the 20s had a good shot at making their 40s, and making your 30s meant you'd likely live to be over 50.
Oh, and I think you mean charcoal; coke is a coal product. Personally, I'd assume charcoal was discovered by accident, when someone tried to put out a fire by burying it and got charcoal instead. (Charcoal production requires the elimination of oxygen to prevent complete combustion.)
I have to mention, though, that gnolls do wear clothes:
As for dyes, I should mention that there were several dyes you can't get anymore, such as murex purple. Admittedly, that's because it takes a lot of murex shells to make enough purple to bother with... the murex is now endangered... :angelhide
Basically, just because it was the Middle Ages didn't mean your gear was of middling quality. ;) Without mass production, however, arms and armor were a sizable investment... there's a reason most kingdoms didn't field large armies. Remember, most peasants will never see a gold piece in their lives...
(Personally, I'm of the opinion that gnolls in a D20 Modern setting would at least partially give up man-eating. After all, if there's one thing the modern world produces plenty of, it's food. Heck, in some settings you'd be hearing about the "growing" problem of gnoll obesity within two generations...)
But yes, I agree with you overall. A human-only society suffers no major disadvantages, but a cosmopolitan "many-races" society would benefit from the variety.
Yes of course, I take your point on Offal, in fact if my memory serves I saw Noddy Holder talking about having Brains on toast as a child...ugh
(He is an English folk hero and frontman of the Glam rock band Slade, he is from an area known as the black country, where they have a very distinctive accent and use very odd archiac words and phrases)
Maybe I am not as used to seeing offal eaten as I am a vegetarian :D
however to my defence 2 of the 5 dishes you named where from the Philippines (generally a poor country, however during Imelda Marcos time shoe traders did very well :D), and haggis is not eaten as an everyday meal, but you are right about tongue and Black pudding, you were also right about the charcoal.
Gnolls wearing clothes I suspect has a practical reason both in game terms and out, in the MM I suspect gnolls wear Armor for its protective benefit more than as a fashion statement, however the other reason I think they are shown to wear clothes is so that WOTC don't have to put a sticker on the cover that says "WARNING: This book may contain images of anthropomorphic animal creature genitals".
And yes within a modern cosmopolitan city, would benefit from multi-racialism, but only if the non humans in question are willing and capable of contributing something equal to that of a human, but I maintain this benefit comes from the merits of the individual non human, and not an automatic benefit because they are non human.
With regard to the more savage non humans having to curb their instincts, I think that goes without saying, after all, history has shown humanity to be capable of savagery and brutality that would match any Orc or troll, I always used to argue the position of the orc in fantasy and his reputation, after all any crime an orc can commit, has been done by humans as well (cannibalism, massacre, worship of dark deities, human sacrifice, slavery Etc).
So in the same way that humanity as a species has "mellowed" through the domesticating force of civilization, this will have occurred over generation to non humans as well, orcs may still favour meat in their diet, still form tribal-like bonds, be more likely to fight their way through a problem than talk it out, more likely to earn their living in manual work than academia, but they are capable of living in a civilized nation, and there are always exceptions, plus any headlines you read about peoples Dogs disappearing just before Urghak Redclaws barbecue is just a rumor spread by the gutter press.
One character I think could be quite interesting is Professor Urugh "Malcomb" Longfang, a well respected sociologist and orcish cultural historian and spokesperson, a quiet, cultured orc that speak eloquently and passionately about his people. I was inspired for this character by Beast from the animated series of X-men, same voice, even similar appearance (shave beast and make him grey-green and he becomes an orc), especially when ever he is wearing a shirt and tie.
Malcomb is constantly on guard and fights his instincts constantly, when the anti-orc lobby hurl abuse (or threats) he must resist the urge to respond to aggression with aggression, he is often cited as the example of what every orc could be and as such to the media represents the whole orc races attempt to live in civilised society among non orcs, if he were involved in a scandal Orc-non orc relations would rapidly deteriorate.
I also think its worth mentioning that with the sheer number of races involved in the world, that racism becomes more complicated, its no just a matter of A versus B, because maybe A is quite happy to live among C,D and E but fears the savage barbaric history of B, Humans would not be the only intolerant races, I suspect that Elves and Dwarves (remeber that old dwarven saying, "the only good orc, is the one you are wiping of the head of your warhammer")would also contain a number of orc haters, and there are a number of Orc goblin-haters.
I plan on taking the game through eras of play where the heroes are playing their descendants through out the ages (D&D, Modern Urban Arcana, then finally Future Urban Arcana) and combating an unstoppable evil that wants to toss the multiverse into nothingness.
You have a very great idea and very well thought out. Best of luck with it, but in my opinion... you really don't really have to put all this thought into it. Just start with an idea and let is bloom into something bigger as you go. You're not going to be able to cover all your bases, something unplanned for will happen eventually, so just have fun with it.