My martial artist also happens to be a criminal who, on occasion, uses chloroform to kidnap/subdue people. This means he needs to pin them.
At first, I was thinking that Advanced Extreme Effort would be perfect for this. But this FAQ I found (dunno' if it's official) says the following:
FAQ wrote:
Trip is an attack action, which can be part of a full round "Full Attack & 5'step"... many Trips can be made each round at higher levels. But by using Extreme Effort you use up your entire round because the StregthCheck in Trip is now FullRound action.... you can only fullround "ExEffort-TripAttack & 5'step" and your round is spent even if you had more attacks availible. While not spelled out, it is obvious this is just a penalty to your availible actions and doesnt alllow for the target to "walk away" in the middle of your full round action.
There is no 2 round trip.
If you are in the middle of a fight, you can take a 5' and ExEffortTrip someone. Much like a guy that has +11/+6/+1 can either take fullround 3 attacks & 5' or move alot with 1 attack, you can move alot & regular Trip or fullround ExEffortTrip & 5'.... or fullround ExEffort-Bullrush for 5' a guy you are next to.
[INDENT]Full-Round Action
A full-round action consumes all a character’s effort during a round. The only movement the character can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. Some full-round actions do not allow a character to take a 5-foot step. A character can also per¬form free actions (see below) as the GM allow
Extreme Effort: The effort requires a full-round action and provides a +2 bonus on the check[/INDENT]
...does a melee attack (such as starting a grapple or punching someone) count as a "Strength check" for the purposes of Extreme Effort?
Nope
...Does using Extreme Effort make the check (whatever action it may be) into a full-round action, does it require a seperate full-round action (imedietly prior to the check and in the same round), or can you spend a full round action in one round, and then make the check (with the bonus) in the next? Which is it and why do you think (or know) that?
uh... depends.
In the majority of situations use it like you would a FullAttack full round action in combat, or outside of combat as Start & End. The way I read it, it is fullround just to prevent more than a 5' step when doing it and doing it more than once per round.
Your example of Trip is a good one.
Trip is an attack action, which can be part of a full round "Full Attack & 5'step"... many Trips can be made each round at higher levels. But by using Extreme Effort you use up your entire round because the StregthCheck in Trip is now FullRound action.... you can only fullround "ExEffort-TripAttack & 5'step" and your round is spent even if you had more attacks availible. While not spelled out, it is obvious this is just a penalty to your availible actions and doesnt alllow for the target to "walk away" in the middle of your full round action.
There is no 2 round trip.
If you are in the middle of a fight, you can take a 5' and ExEffortTrip someone. Much like a guy that has +11/+6/+1 can either take fullround 3 attacks & 5' or move alot with 1 attack, you can move alot & regular Trip or fullround ExEffortTrip & 5'.... or fullround ExEffort-Bullrush for 5' a guy you are next to.
[INDENT]Full-Round Action
A full-round action consumes all a character’s effort during a round. The only movement the character can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. Some full-round actions do not allow a character to take a 5-foot step. A character can also per¬form free actions (see below) as the GM allow
Extreme Effort: The effort requires a full-round action and provides a +2 bonus on the check[/INDENT]
Nope
uh... depends.
In the majority of situations use it like you would a FullAttack full round action in combat, or outside of combat as Start & End. The way I read it, it is fullround just to prevent more than a 5' step when doing it and doing it more than once per round.
Thanks. The way I read it, the only restriction is you must take the full-round action BEFORE you make the check (naturally). So I could start a grapple normally (I guess the melee attack to start it isn't applicable to Extreme Effort ince it is an attack and not a "check") and then on the next round when it comes time to make opposed rolls I could use Extreme Effort/Grapple as a full-round action and then make the actual grapple check with a +6 bonus. Easy. Full-round action, then the grapple check, no rules are broken as far as I can see.
That seem right to you?
So Extreme Effort [whatever] takes a full round action. Not a full round action + [whatever time it takes to perform normally].
I'm pretty confident the intended action happens AS a full round action, not AFTER a full round action.
I sincerely hope that is the case. Is it possible that I am misreading the FAQ rather than the rules?
A full round action doesnt always really take 1 full round.
To make +11/+6/+1 attacks you have to take the full round action "Full Attack".
But in addition to taking that full round action you can take a 5'step.
So, in 3 rounds, you can take 3 full round action.... AND travel 15', clearly showing there is more than a full round action in a round.
So, again,
a Trip is an attack action, you can do a 30'Move and then TripAttack as an attack action. Or, you can make an ExtremeEffort Trip as a fullround and 5'step (just like the 11/6/1 fullround & 5')
Or, you can do a fullround "Bend ParkingMeter" with a 5'step,
followed next round with another 5'step and a fullround 11/6/1 FullAttack,
and in the last round you do a fullround ExtremeEffortBullrush for nomore than 5'
(because you only have 5' of move in this round, due to the fullround action ExEffBullrush
I'd suggest having the character spend a move action on turn 1 "warming up" his extreme effort talent and then resolve the as a full round action on turn 2.
-DF
Table: Actions in Combat
Attack Actions - Attack of Opportunity1
Attack (melee) - No
Attack (ranged) -Yes
Attack (unarmed)- Yes
Attack (aid another) - No
Bull rush (attack) - No
Escape a grapple - No
Move Actions - - Attack of Opportunity1
(bullrush not listed as MoveAction)
Full-Round Actions - Attack of Opportunity1
Bull rush (charge) - No
Charge - No
Coup de grace - -Yes
..........................
Bull Rush
A character can attempt a bull rush as an attack action made during his or her move action, or as part of a charge. (In general, a character can’t make an attack action during a move action; this is an exception.) In either case, the character doesn’t get a 5-foot step before, during, or after the bull rush attempt. When the character bull rushes, he or she attempts to push an opponent straight back instead of attacking the opponent. A character can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than the character, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush
First, the character moves into the target’s square. Moving in this way provokes an attack of opportunity from each foe that threatens the character, probably including the target.
Second, the character and the target make opposed Strength checks. If the character and the target are different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the Strength check of +4 per difference in size category. The character gets a +2 bonus if he or she was charging. The target gets a +4 stability bonus if he or she has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results
If the character beats the target’s Strength check, the character pushes the opponent back 5 feet. The character can push the target back an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which the character exceeded the target’s check result, provided the character moves with the target. A character can’t, however, exceed his or her normal movement for that action. (The target provokes attacks of opportunity if moved. So does the character, if he or she moves with the target. The target and the character do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other as a result of this movement.)
If the character fails to beat the target’s Strength check, the character moves 5 feet straight back to where the character was before the character moved into the opponents square. If that square is occupied, the character falls prone in the square.
The Attack Action "Attack(Bull Rush)" as described in the table listing attack actions, is an attack action. The movement involved is upto your movement allowed that round,
ExtremeEffort Bullrush (fullround action) only leaves 5' of "move" (fullround&5), so you cant ExEffBR a back more than 5' even if your roll would allow you more push distance. The normal BR would let you push the guy back up to your full move if you roll good enough.
You dont spend a round revving up your swing for a full round action 11/6/1 Full Attack & 5' step.
Neither do you need to for full round action ExtremeEffort Trip & 5' or ExtremeEffort Bullrush for 5' (the 5 being the step-in & push).
When you are standing next to a guy, you can ExtremeEffort Bullrush (fullround) to push him back no more than 5', and that doesnt require any interference with the preceding or following round. You cannot travel to an opponent to ExEffBR because you have a total of 5' travel due to the fullround nature of ExEffBR leaving you a total of 5' travel: you can get to the target but have no travel left to move him (aka: into his sq to push him back).
Thats the way I am reading the rules,
which I guess is why the FAQ answered this question the way they did.
While it may not be an option spelled out by the rules, spending a move action "revving up" is consistent with the intent of the Extreme Effort talent and works smoothly with executing the Bull Rush as a full round action. It should also work very well with Heroic Surge.
I like it and if it's all the same to you I'm going to use it.
-DF
Reading the same rules, I notice that you are not allowed to take a 5 ft. step at all while making a Bull Rush.
...In either case, the character doesn’t get a 5-foot step before, during, or after the bull rush attempt...
Initiating a Bull Rush
First, the character moves into the target’s square. Moving in this way provokes an attack of opportunity from each foe that threatens the character, probably including the target.
<...>
Bull Rush Results
<...>If the character fails to beat the target’s Strength check, the character moves 5 feet straight back to where the character was before the character moved into the opponents square.
Yes, clearly and explicitly the rules as written say both that you dont get a 5'step and you do move 5' into the opponants sq. One of those cant be completely right, can it.
When one refers to the end results after a successful Bullrush,
one will see the attacker has indeed ended up at least 5' away from where he was before the turn started. By comparing that actuality with the conceptual rule that says there is no 5' before during or after, we see that the comment about lack of 5'Step is refering to Other Than Bullrushing
Holding a door shut for 10rounds while folks try to beat their way in would be a Strength check. However, this clearly exemplifies a strenth challenge that precludes the guy from having a Move Action to spend: the Hold is taking up every drop of the round. By RAW, one doesnt have to have a Move Action to burn to spend it 'revving up'. In the same way the guy cant be reloading or otherwise using up a move action he dont get from spending 10rounds Holding the door, he cannot spend those nonexistant move actions "revving up" either. Seems obvious that Extreme Effort should help a guy hold the door shut for 10 rounds, and RAW allows that.
I fail to see the poor guy letting the enemy thru the 1st round as he revs up, then ExtremeEffort-Holding it closed the 2nd, just to let them in again during the 3rd as he gets ready to hold it closed the 4th.
All this focus on Bullrush is overshadowing the other activities that go from Standard action (Attack action) to Fullround action. A guy can take his 11/6/1 attacks as a fullround action, and each of thos can be an attack action Trip... he can make 3 Trip attack actions that round. Or he can make just one Extreme Effort Trip fullround action.
RAW extreme effort does not say it expeneds or requires a MoveAction or is MAE. If that were the case, that only a MoveAction must be spent revving up, then Mr 11/6/1 can
Round 1: Double Move = 30' + MEA "Revving Up"
Round 2: FullAttack then 5'step = ExEffort Trip + 2 regular Trips then 5'step back
.... that would meet some theroretical need to spend a MoveAction directly prior to, but not necessarily in the same round as, the ExEff Trip. I'm not gonna hop on that bandwagon, that aint right cause the Exreme Effort text dont say a Move Action must be spent prior to the activity.
But hey,
you wanna make Extreme Effort more worthless than it is in your games go ahead. That is the great thing about the modern forum, play whatever houserules / interpretations you want. However, many questions get asked over & over, so the common answers get put in a FAQ
... you dont have to abide by the FAQ in your games, but you should do the other gamers you play with the courtesy of letting them know what houserules and interpretations you have that deviate from RAW/FAQ. Just as you dont wait till the guy actually shoots his FiveseveN to tell him you fixed it to 2d6, you dont wait till the gate is dropping to explain your ExtremeEffort interpretation to the Strong.
Thats the way I am reading the rules,
which I guess is why the FAQ answered this question the way they did.
recall that the FAQ was a copy of the original one when Rich and the gang hung around here and answered questions
But hey,
you wanna make Extreme Effort more worthless than it is in your games go ahead. That is the great thing about the modern forum, play whatever houserules / interpretations you want. However, many questions get asked over & over, so the common answers get put in a FAQ
... you dont have to abide by the FAQ in your games, but you should do the other gamers you play with the courtesy of letting them know what houserules and interpretations you have that deviate from RAW/FAQ. Just as you dont wait till the guy actually shoots his FiveseveN to tell him you fixed it to 2d6, you dont wait till the gate is dropping to explain your ExtremeEffort interpretation to the Strong.
Let's see...
I fail to see how allowing a 60 ft. move bull rush with a +8 bonus on top of the regular strength bonus (+2 charge, +6 advanced extreme effort) is worse than being limited to a 5 ft. move (and 5 ft. push).
And why would I want to change the 5-7? It's the best damned gun in the book!
-DF
recall that the FAQ was a copy of the original one when Rich and the gang hung around here and answered questions
Nevertheless, as far as I can tell there is nothing showing that FAQ to be "official." Unless put into an official format, a game designer's opinions/interpretations are only as valid as any other poster's opinions/interpretations.
It's not even available on the web site.
It's not even available on the web site.
the only errata that is even on the website is for a table that got left out of a book,so if you go with that,then there is NO ERRATA THE BOOK IS PERFECT AS ARE THE RULES!
Its been that way since the start tooWhat 60' Bullrush?
The FAQ way is you can bullrush a guy that starts your round next to you for just 5'.
The alleged Move RevUp would be burning a MoveAction prior to making a Bullrush... assumingly that means Round1 "DoubleMove" 30' & MEA RevUp, followed in round 2 with a FullRound Bullrush (of an indeterminate distance by the RevUp way). It would be a FullRound action to do the bullrush because the ExtremeEffort uses the actual word full round action, and as such it cant be a charging bullrush. That makes sense because the Move directly preceding the pushing is traveling in the charge rather than spent Revving Up. Why bother to rev up, then lose the rev by spending Move by moving.
Who said anything about 60' bullrush with Extreme Effort?
Normal Bullrush can be part of a charge, but not RevUp ExEff Bullrush due to his desire to burn the move RevvingUp, as an interpretation that "requires a full-round action" no longer means it is a full round action but means spend a Move Equiv Action prior to doing anything under the sun.
RevUp Style has upto 30'Travel & RevUp in the round prior to the round you make upto a 30' push ExEff Bullrush on a guy you start next to. No stepes before during or after, according to the RAW.
Yes, there are plenty of holes that need filling in with the MoveAction RevUp way to do it, but that is not my problem.
the only errata that is even on the website is for a table that got left out of a book,so if you go with that,then there is NO ERRATA THE BOOK IS PERFECT AS ARE THE RULES!
And where is that at?
Who said anything about 60' bullrush with Extreme Effort?
I did. I wanted to point it out since you had obviously missed out on the possibility that a character might want to make better use of Extreme Effort than just having a huge bonus on the somewhat limited maneuver: moving an enemy that is adjacent to you a whoopin' 5 ft.
In case you missed out what I just said: a 5 ft. push of against an enemy that has to be adjacent to you at the start of your turn is of less tactical value than an open-ended push directed against any enemy within 30 ft. or any enemy you can charge within 60 ft.
As for the rest of your post, I fear I lost track of where you were going somewhere "under the sun".
-DF
And where is that at?
psst its in the useful links list...but cuz i'm such a nice guy here it is
psst its in the useful links list...but cuz i'm such a nice guy here it is
Thank you nice guy.
EDIT: Spoke too soon. The link is broke.
Thank you nice guy.
EDIT: Spoke too soon. The link is broke.
it works for me >.<
try that one and if that doesn't work then try googling it,lol
it works for me >.<
try that one and if that doesn't work then try googling it,lol
Thanks again!