Look at appleseed. These mechs are smaller, but effectively heavy troopers.
Also note not all mechs are bipedal. The soundest way to explain it is to just think of them as super soldiers. When it comes to the extremely large mechs legs are not as easy to hit as perhaps giant tank tracks.
And a mecha can walk over that rubble pile of a downed office building while a tank/apc/ifv wiil have to find an alternate route to the enemy or through the city... dragonsteeth ala WW II would stop most tanks while the mecha just walks over them... a mecha also has a height advantage able to see over; small hillocks, trees, into trenches, the third+ floor of a building...
I've never understood the fascination for mechs. From the military aspect they are probably the least valid hypothesis for any kind of futur war. Bipedal walking towers are not exactly sound design.
Not to be rude, but it sounds like you've fell into the same trap most others do when they hear the word "mech."
To quote the D20 Mecha Compendium:
The term "mecha" was originally shorthand for "mechanical design" in the Japanese animation world (also known as "anime"). Anything that wasn't a character or a background was a mecha, from ordinary cards and motorbikes to robots and starships. Since they were needed in greater numbers on shows that featured lots of vehicles and weapons -- most of them giant robots and science-fiction series -- the term came to be identified with big piloted robots (though most shows adopt specialized term for them, like "mobile armor," "iron troopers" or "powered driver").
Although giant walking machines of death and destruction are always cool. >:3
shinobi_guyver is right and all that historical significance failed to boot in my brain.... but giant death machines don't have to be only bipedal it could have six/eight legs like a spider... or the classic chicken legs ala MechWarrior/BattleTech
shinobi_guyver is right and all that historical significance failed to boot in my brain.... but giant death machines don't have to be only bipedal it could have six/eight legs like a spider... or the classic chicken legs ala MechWarrior/BattleTech
And the true classic giant walking death machine...
The War of the Worlds (1898 H. G. Wells)
I don't think there needs to be any reality or practical reasoning behind something in order to enjoy it. I mean, All these action movie guys who triumph against gun wielding doods with just their fist. Really, from a logical aspect, it's way better to use a gun against another man using a gun.
But martial arts are awesome. So, we sort of turn off the side of our brain that is crying out about how stupid that guy is for bringing his fists into a gun fight.
But i doubt you are ever going to get it, just like i will never get what is so appealing about slasher movies.
Some things are just not for everyone.
I think it sort of applies to all giant robots in the mecha genre, as a dramatic tool. When 90% of the screen time is the war machines in action, its easy to forget there are people in there. The humanoid aesthetic was chosen to emphasize to the viewer that when they're watching machines explode, they're also watching people die. Or something like that.
I mean, your complaints against mecha are valid from a realism standpoint, don't get me wrong. But on the other side of that, as said, there are other types of mecha than the giant 30 story walking tower.
In the mecha setting I've been writing the largest bipedal war machines top off at the upper reaches of the Large size category, still unrealistic, but realistic enough.
Besides, in d20 Modern, even excluding magic, there is way more ridiculous, sensibility shattering crap going on than giant robots.
Also, from my logic on the humanoid shape of mecha and the reason why there is never ever a set one type, except for the mass-produced Zaku/insert mech here, is that each mecha serves a specific roll... Guntank in gundam was artillery... and why each unit is different is so you know which pilot/non-important cannon fodder is being killed
And as mentioned before, all mecha are not bipedal... kinda like the spider mecha that I am working out using d20 Mecha and Mecha Compendium + a composition book... It's a work in progress but once done, thrown into campaign where it probably be stolen by the PC's, and driven to the camouflaged starport...well I see how it plays out with my stat-fu
Edit 1:45am
Also, Mecha don't have to be just military machines. In the BattleTech/MechWarrior universe there were civilian/industrial mecha... basically take one of todays machines i.e. a logger or back-ho/trench digger and you have a bipedal machine capable of traversing uneven terrain for work. I mean a huge diamond-carbied chainsaw could do some massive damage to a building even a tank
Anything with legs makes no sens to me technological speaking. If you are going to spend so much money building a gigantic war machine its best to give it optimum mobility = flight+hovering. Its far too easy to just hamstring the legs and immobilize the Mecha rendering it useless. A humanoid shape has far too many moveable parts and is too complex to become a viable war machine. All the technology needed to keep it upright and balanced during assault should be spent on actual weaponery and counter measures.
Keep is simple is always best in military design (or any design..).
Some where in here(www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/robert_full_o...)
The weird thing about human legs, and the legs of many other animals, is that the formula that governs them makes them self stabilizing. If you walk into a wall your legs will stop you from falling without any interplay with the brain. Can you not assume you would build mecha like this?
huh? Everything is governed by the brain. Spinal cord injury is proof of that.
The weird thing about human legs, and the legs of many other animals, is that the formula that governs them makes them self stabilizing. If you walk into a wall your legs will stop you from falling without any interplay with the brain. Can you not assume you would build mecha like this?
huh? Everything is governed by the brain. Spinal cord injury is proof of that.
I believe what he's getting at is there's no conscious thought about not falling from walking into something.
You can walk straight into a wall, bounce off, and not think "I have to try not to fall."
Now if you trip over something, on the other hand....
Didn't Dinosaurs have auxiliary brains for just about that exact purpose?
Well the talk I posted up mentions that dinosaurs may not have had the same pogo-stick type legs.
Didn't Dinosaurs have auxiliary brains for just about that exact purpose?
Well the talk I posted up mentions that dinosaurs may not have had the same pogo-stick type legs.
The Achilles tendon is pretty vital to maintaining momentum at a run, (hence the difference in difficulty in running on sand rather then pavement) various mecha should include a mega spring of some kind in each leg for that reason.
But a secondary brain, or rather a gyrostabilizer to maintaining balance would also be pretty key on a bipedal shape that will be under fire and hope not to fall down.
Another thought : Gigantic Mecha would be far too heavy to run around cities. They would simply crush the pavement and be bogged down in exploding water mains (subway lines). Roads are simply not built to support such heavy masses...
Perhaps that's why the larger mecha have many legs, to spread out the weight, or you could just assume if we did have the technology to build such large mecha, we could build adequate roads and streets.
See, the arguments against the realism of mecha are all tired old dead horses.
Yes, mecha are unrealistic, yes, the idea of such a complicated machine as a humanoid mecha being used for war is impractical and probably downright ridiculous, yes, a single RPG to a joint will render the big, expensive, complicated machine completely useless. There is no use in pretending otherwise.
But most of us mecha fans just don't care. Its purely the Rule of Cool in this regard.
If action movies and scifi can get away with the most absurd garbage all the time, why can't we have mecha? There are far more unrealistic and downright ridiculous things than mecha that action movies, science fiction, and other genres get away with all the time, why pick on the idea of big robots? Because its popular? Because of some knee-jerk reaction that anything anime related is bad? (Sorry, now I'm starting to sound confrontational... been a crappy day :P)
Its odd for me to say all that, really, because I'm a huge fan of balancing realism with fun, and tweaking things to be as realistic as possible within the context of the game setting. So those who've been around for a long long time may even call me a hypocrite. :P
But when writing science fiction, its assumed there is going to be a lot of Suspension of Disbelief. Whats important is finding something that suits your level of SoD. I'm sure if you looked beyond the more extreme things like Battletech and Gundam, you might find a form of mecha that suits you. Try the game Heavy Gear, or the series Armored Troopers VOTOMS (which was an inspiration for the Gears in Heavy Gear). They're more toned down, being fairly clunky, with thick armored legs, "skating" around on hover systems or treads when needing to move faster, stand around 10ft-15ft tall max, and are usually backed with traditional infantry and armor. IMHO things on that level have a much higher level of realism than towering 30 story robots doing karate. (Even if they're still unrealistic in the overall)
You may not understand the fascination with mecha, you may not ever understand. But I, as well, will never understand the fascination with trying to shut down mecha fans. ("shut down" sounds so extreme, but I can't think of a better suiting phrase at the moment) :P
PS: The stuff I said in my previous post is pretty much the "academic" point of view on the mecha fandom. Its more of less the same explanation you'll get from those who study pop culture and the people who pioneered the genre. Its not my opinion, its the going theory.
I don't want to sound like I'm being a sourpuss, or am angry, I'm really not, but I want to drive home a point (or a couple of points, I dunno, I'm gonna ramble for a bit, bear with me :P).
See, the arguments against the realism of mecha are all tired old dead horses.
Yes, mecha are unrealistic, yes, the idea of such a complicated machine as a humanoid mecha being used for war is impractical and probably downright ridiculous, yes, a single RPG to a joint will render the big, expensive, complicated machine completely useless. There is no use in pretending otherwise.
But most of us mecha fans just don't care. Its purely the Rule of Cool in this regard.
If action movies and scifi can get away with the most absurd garbage all the time, why can't we have mecha? There are far more unrealistic and downright ridiculous things than mecha that action movies, science fiction, and other genres get away with all the time, why pick on the idea of big robots? Because its popular? Because of some knee-jerk reaction that anything anime related is bad? (Sorry, now I'm starting to sound confrontational... been a crappy day :P)
Its odd for me to say all that, really, because I'm a huge fan of balancing realism with fun, and tweaking things to be as realistic as possible within the context of the game setting. So those who've been around for a long long time may even call me a hypocrite. :P
But when writing science fiction, its assumed there is going to be a lot of Suspension of Disbelief. Whats important is finding something that suits your level of SoD. I'm sure if you looked beyond the more extreme things like Battletech and Gundam, you might find a form of mecha that suits you. Try the game Heavy Gear, or the series Armored Troopers VOTOMS (which was an inspiration for the Gears in Heavy Gear). They're more toned down, being fairly clunky, with thick armored legs, "skating" around on hover systems or treads when needing to move faster, stand around 10ft-15ft tall max, and are usually backed with traditional infantry and armor. IMHO things on that level have a much higher level of realism than towering 30 story robots doing karate. (Even if they're still unrealistic in the overall)
You may not understand the fascination with mecha, you may not ever understand. But I, as well, will never understand the fascination with trying to shut down mecha fans. ("shut down" sounds so extreme, but I can't think of a better suiting phrase at the moment) :P
PS: The stuff I said in my previous post is pretty much the "academic" point of view on the mecha fandom. Its more of less the same explanation you'll get from those who study pop culture and the people who pioneered the genre. Its not my opinion, its the going theory.
Sounds fine to me. I will back this.
I personally believe that mecha are a feasible option for the future of warfare. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we have them, or that we're even working on them. I am saying that no nation or corporation (to my personal knowledge) has applied the time, resources, and willpower to investigate it.
It is my personal contention that (with a mecha-oriented manhattan project) the US could field a sub-par (less-effective than conventional armor units) first generation of mecha within 5-10 years. With proper mecha design, and refinement of the integrated technologies, It is my belief that we could field mechs superior to tanks in the next 25-30 years.
Rule of Cool certainly covers much of the fascination with mecha. Especially as to the capabilities ascribed to them in anime/manga/and morning cartoons. But to dismiss the future possibilities of mecha when considering only current technologies seems a bit short-sighted to me.
I know that Canada is accepting engineering proposals and US is spending money on researching powered armor.
Curiously it's been that way since the release of Iron Man.
It has to do that the Modern Soldier packs upwards of 60 lbs of equipment and they could use more, they just can't carry more and what they have is backbreaking.
Not the 40 ft tall Mechs from Battletech but the 8 foot tall menacing apes from the starship troopers (novel and anime adaptation, not movie)
I know that Canada is accepting engineering proposals and US is spending money on researching powered armor.
Curiously it's been that way since the release of Iron Man.
It has to do that the Modern Soldier packs upwards of 60 lbs of equipment and they could use more, they just can't carry more and what they have is backbreaking.
Not the 40 ft tall Mechs from Battletech but the 8 foot tall menacing apes from the starship troopers (novel and anime adaptation, not movie)
Ah, but you forget the clans Elementals in MechWarrior/Battletech... granted the Clans Elementals are part of the eugenics programs that each employs and stand like 7ft.+ out of armor... but an exoskeleton of Powered armor could be a boon to any soldier cause each one humps anywhere from 40Lbs.+ in the field
I certainly admire their ambition, but they're putting the integrated circuit before the transistor. By that I refer to the law of miniturization. You can't have a DVD before a laser-disc. Technology has proven it doesn't work that way. New tech is always explored in larger sizes before becoming compact. I would likewise expect the giant mech to preceed power armor.
Lots of funny things are already going on right now. When you expect be prepared to be wrong.
So yeah, eventually you'll have the little baggage carrier that dutifully follows you through a crowd while avoiding hitting anyone.
Mule was renamed Bigdog and can carry a bit more then it's weight now. I'm more amazed that Drone Bombers took off the way they did.
I got kinda hooked on TED.
More robots means less lives at risk and thus lost (on our side), or so the theory goes.
Powered armor or mecha that are effectivly large powered armor fit within this line of reasoning if you follow the idea that the individual soldier would be able to be equipped with a squadron's worth of firepower. Even if there is a high cost per individual the tradeoff is you have to field less. In theory, at least.
I actually fear for a future where soldiers are completely replaced by robots. Why? Because imagine a nation who can freely go to war without risking the lives or safety of one of their own people in the slightest. The lives of their foes and everything in their path would become trivial. There would be no fear or risk. Only the destruction of everything in their robots' wake.
Sorry my SoD doens't extend to Mecha. I'm certainly was not trying to shut down anyone. So in the end its all about the Rule of Cool. I can understand that.
As they say, "to each his own."
Glad we could come to an understanding.
The main goal of UAVs and experiments with robotics on the battlefield is to take soldiers off it.
More robots means less lives at risk and thus lost (on our side), or so the theory goes.
Powered armor or mecha that are effectivly large powered armor fit within this line of reasoning if you follow the idea that the individual soldier would be able to be equipped with a squadron's worth of firepower. Even if there is a high cost per individual the tradeoff is you have to field less. In theory, at least.
I actually fear for a future where soldiers are completely replaced by robots. Why? Because imagine a nation who can freely go to war without risking the lives or safety of one of their own people in the slightest. The lives of their foes and everything in their path would become trivial. There would be no fear or risk. Only the destruction of everything in their robots' wake.
True and I could only imagine a Stealthed UCAV armed with micro-tactical Nukes... or even a small squadron of them
You don't have to Stealth a Drone, just build a smaller one and Mini-Nukes are bad, but a load of rockets that can turn any small apartment into a Fuel-Air Bomb with fragmentary properties is okay.
But will anyone forfeit a war to someone who never cared enough to spill his own blood?
Orbital bombarding everything into ruin is a pretty good blanket strategy. But mechs have a great use. In wars where you DON'T want to orbital bombard everything... conflicts for resources and the like, mechs are great for zipping in and grabbing stuff. Likewise, for emergency services and the like.
People always compare mechs to tanks... they're not comparable to tanks. They're primarily lifter/demolition equipment that is often quite armored.
Japan is almost there
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW2pBLQLHj0