But if I can run, why do I need to hide
?---
Let's take a look at the Run feat.
Run
Benefit: When running, the character moves a maximum of five times his or her normal speed instead of four times. If the character is in heavy armor, the character can move four times his or her speed rather than three times. If the character makes a long jump, the character gains a +2 competence bonus on his or her Jump check.
You can run, but you can't hide
But if I can run, why do I need to hide
Because if you run straight, you'll just get shot in the back.
As for the use of the feat, I don't see it. It has come into play in my homebrew rules for foot chases, but very little else.
Another thing to remember is that in the
cool cinematic scene where the hero dashes across a wide open space while evading gunfire from a helicopter
the hero will not get his Dexterity modifier to AC. So a fast hero (or hero with a +3 or better Dex modifier) actually gets screwed when taking a run action to evade gunfire.
I've been trying to hammer out rules for running exciting chase scenes, and I did take a brief look at a speciality book called Hot Pursuit, but it mostly pertained to vehicular chases, not foot chases. I toyed around with a new form of movement called "sprint," which would add to your regular move rate based on your Dex score (or Strength, if you prefer). So an extra 5 feet (one square) for every +2 (or something like that). In exchange, you lose your Dodge bonuses to Defence and you can get tired (as with Run). The only problem, though, was that I was afraid that people would just Sprint all the time and make sure they never got to the number of rounds it takes to get tired from running, and they could do so with total impunity if they had no Dodge bonuses.
So instead of that, I tried to just think through the logical consequences of running a chase using d20 rules, and basically what I came up with is the idea that if I do ever run a chase, I'd want to prepare a few specific kinds of obstacles (open man-hole, tight corners, skinny-ass alleyways, things to jump over or tumble around, traffic, etc.), and then toss those obstacles at people in a more or less random way (kind of like the old Wandering Monster tables). That way, you're constantly making Jump, Tumble, and Balance checks.
So in sum: I agree that Run is nigh useless, but I think it's possible (even though I haven't come up with anything yet) to replace it with something much more interesting and create a whole new kind of encounter. I'd love to continue to mull that one over.
I've been trying to hammer out rules for running exciting chase scenes, and I did take a brief look at a speciality book called Hot Pursuit, but it mostly pertained to vehicular chases, not foot chases. I toyed around with a new form of movement called "sprint," which would add to your regular move rate based on your Dex score (or Strength, if you prefer). So an extra 5 feet (one square) for every +2 (or something like that). In exchange, you lose your Dodge bonuses to Defence and you can get tired (as with Run). The only problem, though, was that I was afraid that people would just Sprint all the time and make sure they never got to the number of rounds it takes to get tired from running, and they could do so with total impunity if they had no Dodge bonuses.
So in sum: I agree that Run is nigh useless, but I think it's possible (even though I haven't come up with anything yet) to replace it with something much more interesting and create a whole new kind of encounter. I'd love to continue to mull that one over.
The homebrew I use for chases is based on the BtvS chase rules. The person fleeing has a chase value of 10 + their base movement + their movement multiplier (a x2 at a jog becomes a +2, etc). The person pursuing makes "attacks" against the chase value with a bonus that equals their base movement + their movement multiplier (again, a x2 at a jog becomes a +2, etc).
The number of successful "attacks" needed to catch the guy can either vary like a 4e skill challenge (my current model) or can be equal to the target's Constitution modifier or 1/5 of his base speed (I flip-flopped between these last 2 as my old model). The number of failures required for the target to get away can either vary like a 4e skill challenge (again, my current model) or equal the pursuer's Constitution modifier or 1/5 of the pursuer's base speed (again, I flip-flopped between these last 2 as my old model).
Obstacles like fences, open manholes, etc provide a penalty to the pursuer's "attack" ranging from -1 to -5. And characters could use their Streetwise skill to find shortcuts through alleys and such. DC 15 gets you a +1 bonus shortcut, raise the DC by 5 for each additional +1 (real good shortcuts are always hard to find when you need them right now).
That said, I am not against the next edition of d20 Modern having a set of chase rules that handles foot chases as well.
The homebrew I use for chases is based on the BtvS chase rules. ...
Sounds like some solid stuff, there, but it seems a bit abstract. You make a "chase" check against someone's "run away" check and eventually someone wins. Do you pepper that with flavour commentary? I think, personally, I'd want to be given a terrain and a set of obstacles/options, and then make a decision about what I'd like to do, rather than having that kind of set mechanic. I'm only speaking from personal preference, of course, and I haven't ever tried what you're describing, so it's all speculation. Still, that's what my gut tells me.
Every time I go through this, I actually end up saying screw it, and just trying to be more creative with the d20 rules as written (I'm a 3e guy as you know), and I find it forces me to get fairly creative. If I were to base chases on dealing with obstacles (lots of skill tests), then I'd want to transform Run into some kind of "Tumble/Jump/Balance checks while chasing" bonus.
Run Feat does all the Run stuff, and adds 5' when moving your base speed.
that only really comes into playwhen the char is moving all of their base speed anyway,
all the times you go just 3 or 4 sq a round you are not really using that feature
Let it stack with Fast's speed so nobodys toes get stepped on.
Sounds like some solid stuff, there, but it seems a bit abstract. You make a "chase" check against someone's "run away" check and eventually someone wins. Do you pepper that with flavour commentary? I think, personally, I'd want to be given a terrain and a set of obstacles/options, and then make a decision about what I'd like to do, rather than having that kind of set mechanic. I'm only speaking from personal preference, of course, and I haven't ever tried what you're describing, so it's all speculation. Still, that's what my gut tells me.
Every time I go through this, I actually end up saying screw it, and just trying to be more creative with the d20 rules as written (I'm a 3e guy as you know), and I find it forces me to get fairly creative. If I were to base chases on dealing with obstacles (lots of skill tests), then I'd want to transform Run into some kind of "Tumble/Jump/Balance checks while chasing" bonus.
Well certainly there is fluff/commentary in there, just like with combat actions and skill uses. That's just good rp.
And there is definitely an argument to be made for making a Tumble/Jump/Balance check to avoid an obstacle, with a failure resulting in spending a move action next turn to recover from the fall or fumble.
As for the issue of maps with terrain features, that is certainly doable. My only problem with that is the amount of prep required and the choice of scale. Does a foot chase switch to chase scale? If not, you'll have a lot of map area to cover. If you do, how do you determine if an open manhole (or other minor obstacle) is actually moved across? There is certainly plenty of room in a single chase scale square to avoid something that size.
In the end, I guess it's just a matter of personal taste and prep time. I'm ok with being a little abstract if it saves me significant prep time or keeps the game going without veering far from the mood/action I'm trying to acheive. If a monster/killer is chaing someone through a house or something, I generally prefer the map and terrain option. If the area is rather wide open, my friends and I were willing to go with the slightly abstract option.
That makes a lot of sense. The modern games I run are set in my home town, Vancouver, and I know its streets very well. I'm also pretty accustomed to improvisation, so I'd tend to say "Sure, you run down Powell street. The Jolly Chairman bar is on your right and it's the middle of the day, so the Granville Island Brewery guy is delivering kegs. Jump check to avoid them." But that's just me. I like the granular detail in a modern setting.
Regretably, my hometown is not a large one. We have no subway, no bus station, no above-ground train station, and our business district consists mostly of a shut-down Ford plant. Plus about half the group consisted of non-local players (I used to schlep 20 miles one way each week just to play).
Player: "I rolled 14... thats for Initiative, cause I'm sappin that mook and grabbin me a keg"
GM:
Player: "What, its under my Max load, see... right here."
GM: ... so the Granville Island Brewery guy is delivering kegs. Jump check to avoid them.
Player: "I rolled 14... thats for Initiative, cause I'm sappin that mook and grabbin me a keg"
GM:
Player: "What, its under my Max load, see... right here."
I could never call for a Jump check to avoid kegs. One of my players would me straight in the eye and say "Who do think I am, Donkey Kong? I'll just shove him onto his butt."
so it seems fair we put it into Modern
Regretably, my hometown is not a large one. We have no subway, no bus station, no above-ground train station, and our business district consists mostly of a shut-down Ford plant. Plus about half the group consisted of non-local players (I used to schlep 20 miles one way each week just to play).
Ah, I see. That's a bummer. That said, I run games set in Vancouver with my Edmonton crowd (NB for Americans: Edmonton is in a different province than Vancouver). I think they got a bit annoyed at my obsession with detail ("you're in front of a sushi bar that used to be a tourist shop that used to be a high-class artisanal jewelry shop"), but just knowing the city well meant that I could pick out special locations and stuff. This is what I mean when I say that reality is the best source book you'll ever buy. There is so much going on in any given city, even a small town, if you just look for it. There is comparatively very little going on in the average invented city.
Still, I can see why you wouldn't want to run games in your home town, but even just buying a map and a tourist guide of a larger city near you could work really well.
GM: ... so the Granville Island Brewery guy is delivering kegs. Jump check to avoid them.
Player: "I rolled 14... thats for Initiative, cause I'm sappin that mook and grabbin me a keg"
GM:
Player: "What, its under my Max load, see... right here."
Yup, that would happen. Especially if you've ever had Granville Island Pale Ale. Yum. That said, it's worth reminding players in Modern games that they live in a world with cops and a penal system.
1)some lunatic decides to use the spiked-chain twink in d20mod. You are equally insane and are unarmed. As the spiked-chain twink is feat intensive, the munchkin you are fighting will not have Run, so you use your 5x speed and bolt.
2)You walk into the BBEG's hideout, and he has five or ten gun-toting thugs. If you took run, you probably are a fast hero. You win on initiative, and decide you want to be a few range increments away. You use your 5x speed to bolt.
3)Your hometown is invaded by zombie robot aliens. They wield high-tech chainsaws (Zombies with chainsaws? Irony!).... long story short, you use your 5x speed to bolt.
Highly diverse.
Oddly, there is a surprising amount of Mario Continuous Jumping going on in online FPS games,
so it seems fair we put it into Modern
as for the feat itself..wouldn't this bee a good one to chose if your character concept was a free runner like the main character in the game mirror's edge? I could see it being useful with that plan in mind while in an urban in environment particularly the jumping further part.
Sprint
Move-action.
Double your movement rate (triple with the Run feat).
You can make 90-degree turns.
Lose Dex and Dodge bonuses, and gain +2 circumstance bonus to Defence.
Incorporate other kinds of movement into the Sprint (Tumble, Balance, Jump).
Sprint for 5 (?) rounds before you get tired, start making Con checks.
Thoughts?
- DC 15 check for a 45 degree turn.
- DC 25 check for a 90 degree turn.
Failure to make make the Balance/Tumble check is a stumble, costing you an additional 10' of movement.
So pumping up Balance/Tumble would be how a PC can gain the ability to make turns (and presumably other things?) while Running. I like that. It gives players a solid, reliable, mechanical way to overcome the limitations of the Run action.
Agreed. It also makes it so the Fast heroes, the ones likely to run the best, would be better able to make running turns.
EDIT: I could see an ablity to help i dentify the fastest path along iwth hand holds etc....but i think it may already have been done...
Let's take a fast hero with all three levels of the Increased Speed talent tree and the Run feat. Running full out, he'd move 225 feet in a six second round or 35' per second.
Let's give a little real world comparison. The fastest 100 meter track time is 9.69 seconds by Usain Bolt. Converted to feet and rounded to nice 5' squares, that's 330 feet.
Mr Fast could cover the same distance in about 9.43 seconds.
Yep, a mid level fast hero is faster that the fastest track star in history. Pretty impressive, huh? :D
.... well, at least it is in the ballpark.... 2 or 3 %, I can accept that
Yep, a mid level fast hero is faster that the fastest track star in history. Pretty impressive, huh? :D
225 ft in 6 seconds = 68,625 meters in 6 seconds = 11,4375 m/s
This gives us 100 meters in 8,74 seconds.
DF
So there. :P
Well, that is if you subscribe to the whole Heros are some superior subspecies hooey.
If Olympic Athletes want the feats and abilities of Heros,
they should get together with some guys, kill a bunch of things and take their stuff, and level up as Heros.
This is of course dealt with in RAW:
A former gold medalist that takes a level of Fast is a 1st level character.... just like the former cop or military or any other starting occ for 1st level newbs
and eventually I got to a rep that said
we need to apply a Shoe PDC -10 speed bonus to Running over Base Move
... if we want to run with the big dogs, we need the swash
I'd look at that differently, myself. A gold medalist acrobat (who fights crime in her spare time) has already taken a bunch of levels in order to get to that ability. The cool thing about Modern is that I can actually believe that there's an Advanced class called Restaurant Manager, or School Teacher, or Auto Mechanic. It's not in our books (because very few people would want to play those classes), but I have faith that they exist.
If anyone has ever read the Modernized ezine (only 3 issues that I know of, but cool nonetheless), they have a couple of articles about advanced classes for ordinaries.
I was flipping through my 3.5 SRD and noticed something interesting. Take a look at the two different version of the Run feat.
Modern version
Run
Benefit: When running, the character moves a maximum of five times his or her normal speed instead of four times. If the character is in heavy armor, the character can move four times his or her speed rather than three times. If the character makes a long jump, the character gains a +2 competence bonus on his or her Jump check.
3.5 version
RUN [GENERAL]
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Normal: You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
See the difference? In 3.5, you get to keep you dexterity bonus.
Athlete
Athletes include amateur athletes of Olympic quality and professional athletes of all types, including gymnasts, weight trainers, wrestlers, boxers, martial artists, swimmers, skaters, and those who engage in any type of competitive sport.
Prerequisite: Strength 13 or Dexterity 13.
Skills: Choose three of the following skills as permanent class skills. If a skill the character selects is already a class skill, he or she receives a +1 competence bonus on checks using that skill. Balance, Climb, Drive, Jump, Ride, Swim, Tumble.
Bonus Feat: Select either Archaic Weapons Proficiency or Brawl.
um.... Atheletes dont get a chance to take Run feat?
and since ordinaries dont get class goodies... I should have a Fast PC tryout for the US Olympic team ;)
As for "Athlete," if the athlete in question is a runner, I'd say you just swap out a feat, especially if you're building an ordinary. I mean, it's a game, not a suicide pact.
Sprint
[Skill Enhancer]
You are quick on your feat.
Prerequisite: Run
Benefit: You can add 1d4 plus your Strength or Dexterity modifier to your speed for 1 round at a time. Whether you use Strength or Dexterity for your speed is up to you, but the choice is permanent. Every round you Spring, you must make a Constitution check, starting with DC 10 but increasing by +2 every round. If you fail the check, you cannot Sprint again for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds you spent Sprinting.
I figure, also, if you're doing a really close race, then a few feet will actually make a difference. If you're neck-and-neck, an extra square makes a difference. That's the idea, anyway.
It'd certainly be helpful for any rocks you stumble over ;).
i see you put that one in Perform :poetry to good use:P
Most Occupations get a choice of two feats. How many give the choice of three feats?
Answer:
Core Rulebook: Adventurer, Law Enforcement, Military
Dark Matter: Mercenary, Psychic
d20 Past: Cloistered, Cosmopolitan, On the Run, Slave
A total of Nine...just saying.
-DF
Sprint
[Skill Enhancer]
You are quick on your feat.
Prerequisite: Run
Benefit: You can add 1d4 plus your Strength or Dexterity modifier to your speed for 1 round at a time. Whether you use Strength or Dexterity for your speed is up to you, but the choice is permanent. Every round you Spring, you must make a Constitution check, starting with DC 10 but increasing by +2 every round. If you fail the check, you cannot Sprint again for a number of rounds equal to the number of rounds you spent Sprinting.
That is pretty cool I might think about using that. Your first suggestion for Sprint seemed like there weren't enough restrictions. But I definitely agree there needs to be something in place for exerting yourself a bit more but not making it a full-round action.
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And my suggestion for what we should Analyze next is:
Renown
This provides a +3 to your Reputation. I am still new to D20 Modern and haven't used Reputation really. But it seems to me that it should be split into different categories of being known in certain circles. And you could have the bonus apply to multiple categories.
Like with any feat it represents a facet of your personality, results of training or skills. All feats require some explanation because you don't spontaneously acquire skills. And it is the GMs choice if they require you to do something to "qualify" for such feats and etc. The Renown feat seems to me that it would require a bit more explanation than other feats. Depending on the story the whole party could be rising in Reputation, but there is something about the character that chooses Renown that makes him more noticeable.