Just trying to get some suggestions to help me finish up some modifications aimed at evening up vehicles and mechs in combat for a game that may or may not ever come to pass..
Admittedly, most of these changes are pretty minor, or just mashups of variant rules. The only real effort is going into knocking mechs down a tier or two but, here goes.
Vehicles
Not much really changes, really only one thing that I've thought to add.
- Vehicles are subject to critical hits, but not always extra damage.
When a vehicle is subject to a critical hit, damage is not multiplied. If damage is successfully dealt by the attack, then a random additional effect is applied based on a table of some sort.. things like tread damage on a tank inflicting a movement speed penalty, damage to turret mobility locking a turreted weapon into a particular firing arc, severe damage to Armor reducing it's overall hardness, or in some cases damage skipping the vehicle altogether and directly damaging the crew
Mechs
Here's where most of the changes get stuffed in..
- using a sort of mash up between the "mecha as armor" and "mecha as walking tanks" rules:
mecha have their own HP, strength and dexterity scores, augmented by the pilot's dex mod. However, in movement and general combat, mecha still behave just like a bigger version of the character.
- strike the armor/superstructure system pretty well entirely, they're replaced by a system where the mech's HP is representative of the structure of the mech, and the armor applies hardness, in a similar fashion to vehicles.. not fully worked out on the exact methods involved, maybe something along the lines of being able to trade equipment slots out for additional HP, on a growing hp/slot scale, and also the other way around, being able to give up structure for gear..
- Mech armor class is something like: 10 - size +/- mech's modified dexterity + any specific mech related AC bonus, to keep it from getting too much higher than Vehicle AC's..
- pretty well every mech weapon in D20 future/Future Tech is gone.. replaced by mech versions of weapons present on vehicles.. probably with reduced range, at least if the weapon is handheld, as a bipedal walking tower will probably never be as stable a firing platform as a tank.
- Colossal mechs are no-go, mechs have a tendency to have more HP, and tend to be harder to hit, than vehicles of equal size, so I give the whole realm of colossal size over to vehicles.. all of the biggest guns, and all of the heaviest armor, will be the sole realm of battleships and terrifying mobile fortress things..
- flying mechs are also no-go, except in rare specific cases "flight" will be limited to short, jet assisted hops, probably as a double move.
- mechs are also subject to critical hits, in a similar fashion to the added vulnerability on vehicles
- the base speeds on mechs are reversed in order, the bigger the mech, the more of a hulking behemoth it is.
other random things..
- vehicles will tend to have faster ground speeds and longer weapon ranges, while mechs will enjoy better terrain navigation, and will be easier to customise.. or something like that.
- the idea is, I suppose, that while a mech or vehicle gives the player access to bigger guns, and a layer of heavy armor, they aren't invincible demigods of combat the moment they close the hatch.
My apologies on the lack of actual hard mechanics, I've been away from my books for about a month, so I've been working from memory on most of this..
That's it I suppose. I'll try and come up with a couple of example vehicles, mechs, and weapons for comparison, once I get back to my books, or failing that, off the top of my head.
- Red Letter
edit:
Here's a quick and dirty Light tank, minus the fluff.. it's intended to be super cheap and somewhat survivable.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. Either crewman can control the antipersonel weapon. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiative: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hardness: 12, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC:? , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon, full turret
== 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== carries 20 rounds of ammunition
* Ignores 5pts of hardness.
1x 7.62 machine gun, front arc
== 2d10 damage, 100ft range increment, autofire only
=== carries 2000 rounds of ammunition
And a similar Large sized mech, it's off the top of my head so I may get the number of slots and their placement wrong.
This is a sort of urban tank destroyer, uparmored and upgunned at the expense of speed and ammunition endurance. it also has no real arms, just guns stuck to the side of the torso. It carries a sort of cluster sub-munition weapon, a ceramic case with a sub-caliber penetrator, surrounded by 8 or so high explosive sub-munitions... dunno, seemed like a way to inflate damage against softer targets
Random Large mech
NO HANDS,ARMS
Ability scores: Str 18 , Dex 10
Structure HP: 35
Speed: 40ft
Jump: 80ft
Height:14ft
Face/reach: 10ft by 10ft / 10ft
Armor: heavy (hardness 15?)
equipment/accessories:Pilot's cockpit (back & helmet), 60mm cluster-shot weapon (left arm &
hand), 7.62 Machine gun & ammunition (right arm & hand), basic sensors (none), jump jets (80ft
range) (torso), Comms system (none). 10 rounds of 60mm cluster ( legs, equivalent) 8 slots?.
Armament:
60mm cluster-shot weapon, left arm
==4d12 primary damage, 100ft range increment, S, 19-20x2 crit
=== 6d6 secondary damage, no save for initial target, 10ft burst radius, ref DC 18
==== carries 10 rounds of ammunition
7.62 machine gun, right arm
==2d10 damage, 100ft range increment, autofire only
=== carries 1000 rounds of ammunition
You mentioned trying to mesh the Stat systems for vehicles and mecha but I don't see that for your test. That's been my pet-peeve too -- vehicles don't got no slots and mecha don't got no maneuverability.
Have you looked at using d20 Mecha for designing?
Have you looked at using d20 Mecha for designing?
This.
d20 Mecha has pretty much solved all the problems you're looking at. It meshes the vehicle stats with mecha stats. As a matter of fact, the system is set up so that you can build both vehicles and mecha with it, and still be perfectly in line with the vehicle stats as presented in the core rulebook (should you choose to).
I haven't had a chance to playtest any of this, sort of moved away from my regular gaming group and have yet to find/make a new one..
I've looked into D20 Mecha, infact I may own a hard copy of that, I can't recall. I have a few issues with some parts of the book. The most minor of which is that it was originally designed as an "expansion" of sorts, to BESM d20 as easily seen in the 20 level base class, rather than a d20 modern supplement, so there are a few things that didn't, in my experience, mesh up very well.
I agree that the Tank will probably win any/all encounters on open terrain, where it's superior range and ground speed will stomp all over the mech without any cover, but the mech is supposed to be used in situations where the tank doesn't have as much use of those two qualities, say in the packed together building of a metropolitan area, or other area with tons of cover for the mech to spot through, and hop over in ambush..
I'm not really attempting to mesh the way they're designed, or their stats so much as trying to make them a little more "even" in combat, core d20 future mechs get pretty impossible to kill after a certain threshold, especially once you stick a fast hero in them.
The idea behind having slots for mechs, and no slots for vehicles, has to do more with ease of field modifications, rather than the original design. To change the weapon systems on a tank as far as I'm aware involves sending it back to a factory situation, where the turret is pulled off, the weapon replaced, and the turret rebalanced for smooth rotation. followed by a reworking the vehicle's fire control systems to accommodate the changes to it's loadout. Where as mechs are more modular designs, where the core hardpoints can be reconfigured for many different mission profiles, sort of like an attack helicopter, and it's FCS carries a large database of weapons that it can accept.. or something. I realise that I didn't stick it up there, but I actually have a few mods of that tank worked up.. I'll stick the whole family in this post.
LBT-AX tank family, ~20 tons
LBT-A1
The A1 mounts a 60mm primary cannon in a full turret, and a machine gun mounted into the front of the hull.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiative: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hardness: 12, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon, full turret
== 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== carries 20 rounds of ammunition
* Ignores 5pts of hardness.
1x 7.62 machine gun, front arc
== 2d10 damage, 100ft range increment, autofire only
=== carries 2000 rounds of ammunition
- again, these are supposed to be REALLY cheap, for a piece of military hardware
LBT-A2
The A2 removes the 60mm cannon, and replaces it with a lighter, long range 30mm HVAC and an AT missile pod.
It has a crew of two, one driverand one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiative: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 90 (9), Defense: 8, Hardness: 12, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament
1x 30mm High Velocity Auto-Cannon, full turret
== 4d12 damage, 800ft range increment, S/A
=== carries 80 rounds of ammunition
1x close support missile launcher, full turret
== See LAW rocket launcher for damage & range
=== carries 8 tubes
* can be used with the double tap attack action, for +50% damage
1x 7.62 machine gun, front arc
== 2d10 damage, 100ft range increment, autofire only
=== can carry 2000 rounds of ammunition
-dunno really what sort of combat role this would fit into.. the long range cannon might be useful a an anti-VTOL thing..or otherwise some sort of light vehicle murder machine.. but the AT rockets are a cheap, easy to replace, way to maul other tanks at close ranges.
LBT-A3
The A3 is an extremely minor upgrade that can actually be applied in the field, simply swapping the Machine gun for a lighter, longer range model, and 2000 more rounds of ammunition.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiative: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hardness: 12, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon, full turret
== 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== can carry 20 rounds of ammunition
1x 5.56 machine gun, front arc
== 2d8 damage, 200ft range increment, autofire only
===can carry 4000 rounds of ammunition
- something like a field modification, perhaps for more infantry rich environs?
LBT-A4
The A4 is a modification that trades infantry fighting capability and armor, for more close in punch against vehicles, removing the machine gun and a significant amount of armor, and replacing it with a front mounted AT missile pod, and advanced sensors.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiative: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hardness: 10, Hit Points 40, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon, full turret
== 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== can carry 20 rounds of ammunition
1x close support missile launcher, front arc
== See LAW rocket launcher for damage & range
=== carries 8 tubes
* can be used with the double tap attack action, for +50% damage
++ this unit carries advanced sensors and imaging equipment, allowing it to "spot" targets throught physical barriers, using a computer use check, this model gives a +4 bonus to the check
-this is one of the more extreme refits, but it would probably be fairly dangerous if you somehow found yourself in front of it.
LBT-A5
The A5 is a more extreme modification than most, swapping the regular cannon for a lighter, more accurate cannon and additional armor. The SCP-A5 is the most rugged and well liked of the series, if a little slow.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiave: -3, Maneuver: -3, Top Speed: 75 (7), Defense: 8, Hardness: 15, Hit Points 60, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon II, full turret
== mastercraft +1 to hit, 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== can carry 30 rounds of ammunition
1x 7.62 machine gun, front arc
== 2d10 damage, 100ft range increment, autofire only
=== can carry 2000 rounds of ammunition
- just a general increase in protection, another mod that probably sends it back to the factory.
LBT-A6
The A6 is the most advanced upgrade of the series, replacing every weapon, and carrying perhaps the most well-rounded weapons payload, without sacrificing armor or mobility.
It has a crew of two, one driver and one commander/gunner. It is 4 squares long and three squares wide.
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiave: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hardness: 12, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armament:
1x 60mm cannon II, full turret
== mastercraft +1 to hit, 6d12 damage, 400ft range increment, single
=== can carry 30 rounds of ammunition
1x close support missile launcher, full turret
== See LAW rocket launcher for damage & range
=== carries 8 tubes
* can be used with the double tap attack action, for +50% damage
1x 5.56 machine gun, front arc
== 2d8 damage, 200ft range increment, autofire only
===can carry 4000 rounds of ammunition
++ this unit carries advanced sensors and imaging equipment, allowing it to "spot" targets throught physical barriers, using a computer use check, this model gives a +4 bonus to the check
- supposed to be the apex of the design, before you move up into a different base frame..
and a new mech for you.
Generic scout mech thingy..
This is the prototypical scout mech, lightly armed and armored, but fast. Not equipped for any kind of direct combat, it is best suited to harrasment, or hit and run strikes where it's small AT missile pod can inflict maximum damage, while limiting the exposure this mech has to enemy fire.
With no energy weapons, ammunition use must be watched closely, however no special equipment is required to reload any of the weapons present on this mech.
-this is another mech with weapons stuck to the torso. this time the missiles are on the right, and the 20mm weapon is a nose gun.
New Mech
Large mech
NO ARMS, HANDS
Ability bonuses: Str 14, Dex 14
HP: 20?
Speed: 120ft
Jump: 20ft
Height:14ft
Face/reach: 10ft by 10ft / 10ft
Armor: light (hardness 8)
equipment/accessories: Pilot's cockpit (torso & back), 20mm SMG (left arm and hand, equivalent), Close support missle launcher (right arm, equivalant), intermediate sensors(helmet), (rest of slots allocated to speed upgrades)
Armament
1x 20mm mech smg
==3d8 damage, 80ft range increment,s/a
=== 200 rounds of ammunition
1x light close support missile Pod
== See LAW rocket launcher for damage & range
=== carries 4 tubes
* can be used with the double tap attack action, for +50% damage
++ Advanced sensors allow a mech to "spot" targets through physical barriers, using a computer use check. Intermediate sensors use an equipment slot, and give a +4 bonus to the check.
Again, not trying to mesh up their stats very much. Just trying to dumb down mechs into more reasonable fighting units. Also need to work up PDC's.. the mechs run about 150% to 200% of the costs of the tanks, paying for the extra versatility.
ninja edit:
Another thing that I didn't really bring attention to, mechs can still use all of the character movement actions, double move, run, and charge.. and whatnot, where tanks really can't.. so a mech that looks slow, can get pretty quick in a pinch, and a mech that looks quick, is FAST.
ninja edit #2:
it seems I forgot to note in the general "AP 5" on anything described as a cannon.
I've looked into D20 Mecha, infact I may own a hard copy of that, I can't recall. I have a few issues with some parts of the book. The most minor of which is that it was originally designed as an "expansion" of sorts, to BESM d20 as easily seen in the 20 level base class, rather than a d20 modern supplement, so there are a few things that didn't, in my experience, mesh up very well.
The classes, skills, and feats of d20 Mecha are not required at all. They're rather divorced from the construction system and only exist for you to use should you actually want something like them for the style of game you're running. The construction system on its own meshes perfectly well with d20 Modern (I use it all the time for vehicles, regardless of genre) and was written with it in mind (the mecha stats were modeled after the d20 Modern Core book's vehicle statblocks, and it has sections on how to do mecha combat in chase scale, calculate purchase DCs, ect.), as well as D&D, and any d20 System game, it was made to be generic.
Sorry to keep peddling it, but its my favorite d20 suppliment. :P
Could we modulerize LBTs and have just said here is the chassis stats and here are the various turret module stats?
What if we made it LAV-25 like, only modulerized, turret modules, and the troop area becomes a module area for VLGMs or some other weapon system?
These tanks are tracked, at least as far as I've pondered them out... something could be done along the lines of modular construction.. maybe a setup where the turret can be pulled, and replaced with a passenger bay, or a different turret entirely.. but that would still be a fairly involved teardown process, and wouldn't translate into a slot system very well..
Here's my first attempt on breaking the tanks out into slots..
light vehicle, military, basic (8slots)
base stats (admittedly directly copied from the A1, minus a crewman)
Crew: 1. Passenger(s): 0 Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiave: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 100 (10), Defense: 8, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Armor hardness: 12
-perhaps for every point of armor you add, you subtract a certain amount of speed, slots, or init/man
for the purpose of this test, i'm going to go for speed
4 of those slots go to a "basic" turret, that provides mount for a weapon of size huge.. or some other classification for "primary weapon", and adds an additional crewman, to man it.
the weapon mounted in the aforementioned turret is a 60mm cannon
1 slot goes into ammunition for said weapon, at a rate of 20 rounds per slot.
2 slots goes towards an antipersonel weapon.. without purchasing a turret for this weapon, it's limited to a single Arc, but it's cheaper on slots.. this "hull weapon slot" also contains ammunition fot the weapon
The final slot goes towards bringing speed back up to 100, at one slot per +20ft, or some other rate, dependant on how speed was reduced..
This design could be flipped into an APC, at say, two passengers a slot.. and a "light weapon"
mount might give 360 degree mobility to a weapon of large size, and a certain amount of ammunition for, say 3 slots..
This is all just trying to break the base model into a slotted system, some of the others would be a bit more difficult
For the A2 & A6, there might be an advanced turret, with support for a huge weapon, and a certain number of slots, for additional weapons/equipment.. or maybe a different hull, like "light vehicle, military, advanced" to give them a couple more slots.. or some combination of the two.
The A5, has a lightweight version of the cannon.. which might be a gadget that gives a slot back, for additional armor.
The A4 gives up armor and HP for an additional slot, and replaces the forward weapon slot with a missile pod.
The A3 just has a different machine gun in it's forward weapon mount..
Maybe something along those lines
Stick with it and I'm sure you'll rough itout into just what you are looking to use in your next campaign.
Now I suppose I need to get started on some kind of critical hit table.
Well, I'm not normally one for double posts, and aparently neither is my internet connection, cutting out as I submit a post, and eating a fairly longish posts about Critical hits, and user guided missiles..
Suffice to say, critical hits are a step or two closer to the bridge to usability, and TOW missiles are chock full of Killy-ness, and should something that is equipped with them get spotted, it'll probably instantly be the primary target, regardless of what it's hanging around with.
So, here's the vehicle that the post closed with.. it has both of those systems represented, or at least mentioned.
APC-W(something), ARCHER
Light vehicle, Military, advanced (10 slots)
Movement: Wheeled (+2 slots, movement critical effects are one category worse)
Armor hardness: 10 (no movement penalty/bonus)
Crew: 2. Passenger(s): 8, Cargo Capacity: 250lbs, Initiave: -2, Maneuver: -2, Top Speed: 160 (16), Defense: 8, Hardness: 10, Hit Points 48, Size: Huge, PDC: , Restriction: Military (+3)
Equipment: basic turret with ARCHER missile system (4 slots), advanced sensors (1 slot) passenger spaces x4 (4 slots), speed upgrade x3 (3 slots)
Armament
ARCHER missile system
Damage: 20d12, Range increment 2000ft, rate of fire: special.
*ignores 15pts of hardness against the initial target
(also considering a burst radius of some sort, to catch any infantry unlucky or stupid enough to hang around armor)
** the ARCHER is a user guided missile, and has special rules related to its firing.
Once fired, the missile "acts" at the operator's initiave -5, it can travel out to half of its maximum range in a single turn. For targets beyond that range, the operator must spend another attack action, as the first action in his/her turn, to complete the attack.
ANY movement of the vehicle, or successful attacks on the vehicle will impose a penalty on the final attack roll, which varies according to the amount of movement/damage.
-- the system comes with 4 missiles in its base model, and requires special equipment to reload.
++ this unit carries advanced sensors and imaging equipment, allowing it to "spot" targets throught physical barriers, using a computer use check, this model gives a +4 bonus to the check
That's it, there might be a mech with this weapon in the works.. but it follows slightly different rules related to when the missile "acts", since there probably isn't a crewman dedicated to the job.
Also, if the driver holds until after the missile hits, the vehicle can scuttle back into cover after only a turn exposed to fire.
Any suggestions or balancing help would be apreciated, I"m pretty sure the missile is a bit too far on the side of outright nastyness for it to be fun to use against L5-6 player characters.. well, fun for them. Though, they'll have access to these same weapons, and I'm not going to cover a warzone in pillows and bubble wrap to save them from from themselves..
edit: forgot to add sensor stats onto the armament thingy.. doh!
Archer would have an average damage of 120? any vehicle or mech you've listed so far would be vaporized! (maybe you ought stick to more standard weapon damage?)
however, remembering that rockets & missiles have minimum arming distances, a mech could get inside such and thereby defeat the threat.
interesting....
oh, BTW weapon systems should have HP also.
but disabling weapons and such comes into play with weapon system critical hits.
I do agree that the Archer missile is super-extra killy in it's current form.. I'd give it a.. dunno 100-200ft minimum range, for actual game purposes I'd also probably dial damage back to D8s or D6s, for a very slightly more reasonable level of maiming. though I do want it to be seriously meaner than the good old LAW, and to be able to compete with/outperform the 120mm smoothbore of an Abrams.. considering the trials involved in reloading it.
Been running through some encounters on paper with just the LBT's and they have a tendency to be quick and nasty, four turns average usually with only one badly damaged survivor.
The setup goes something like this: teams are, 2 A6's with +2 crews (one hull down in a bombed building) and one +0 A1, versus three +0 A1's, and a single +0 A6 in woods, team two has surprise. they're aprox. 300 ft apart, with some buildings between..
The hull down A6 is the only survivor, it takes a single cannon hit and disables the whole other team with missile Dtaps.. the other A6 never even gets to act in tune one, and the A1 pops in the surprise round..
Also, any Idea on the code for Sblocks? Feel like I need to condense a bit before I add in a 25 item random critical hit table, and a description of the ~12 different individual effects..
about your critical hits table... are you going to use/modify the one in the Modern SRD?
check out Modern Dispatch #60 Mecha Critical Cards.
(also have you looked for Dream Pod 9's Mecha Compendium Deluxe Edition?)
The general idea is to load the "minor" effects towards the center, and get more extreme towards the ends.
Categories of critical effects are movement, weaponry, and armor, and tiers of effects are minor, moderate, major, and catastrophic.
General progression is: damage (penalty), severe damage (bigger penalty), destruction (unusable),and catastrophy(something usually explodes, in the case of a weaponry hit, ammunition explosions probably kill everyone in the vehicle, and leave naught but a smoking hull and a crater)
I'll post it up once I get it typed
EDITZOR: Table time!
% Damage type
1-2% Catastrophic weapon
3-4% Catastrophic armor
5-6% Catastrophic mobility
7-10% Major weapon
11-14% Major armor
15-18% Major mobility
19-22% Moderate armor
23-26% Moderate weapon
27-30% Moderate mobility
31-36% Minor weapon
37-42% Minor armor
42-48% Minor mobility
49-50% Solid Hit! (150% raw damage?)
51% and up is just this in reversed order.
Damage Type Effects
Mobility
minor: 25% speed penalty, manuever penalties x2 (if there are no penalties, there's a -2 now)
moderate: 50% speed penalty, manuever penalties x8
major: Transmission critically damaged! Vehicle immobilised!
catastrophic: Engine destroyed! (Fuel explosion in 1d3 turns!)
(damage numbers for fuel explosion in the works.. but since these things carry somwhere in the area of 300+ gallons of fuel, it's probably nasty enough that you don't want to be around it when it goes off)
Weapon
minor: Weapon hit! (accuracy reduced, -2 penalty on attack rolls)
moderate: Major damage! (turret stuck, also -6 penalty on attack rolls).
major: Weapon system destroyed! (weapon of attacker's choice completely destroyed)
catastrophic: Ammunition explosion! (50% of remaining ammo for weapon of attacker's choice worth of damage to the crew, vehicle, and anything nearby. also not something you want to be around.)
Armor
minor: Resounding hit! Crew stunned! (fort dc 20 versus 1d4 rounds worth of stun?)
moderate: Armor damaged! (vehicle hardness reduced by 2)
major: Armor Destroyed! (vehicle hardness reduced by 8)
catastrophic: Armor penetrated! (crew gets hit, vehicle has tiny hole in it, but is otherwise okay)
still not tested for actual probability. heavily leans towards minor effects... probably.