Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dead1ock May 26, 2008 14:55:58	I just thought i'd get some opinions from fellow members about this. I've started GMing a campaign lately with 4 other players, and it takes place in these modern times. We've decided that we would make firing a weapon more of a big deal, and an important event. We had grown tired of running in guns a blazing and treating the enemy to lead salads and metal candy. The PCs almost always carry pistols exclusively. Sometimes a shotgun or SMG is used. But almost never has an assault rifle been used, or anything heavier. So far it's been an enjoyable experience, and the impact of firing even a single round carries weight to it that is significant. So i wanted to know if any other members of this forum participate in games like this.
#2 nodaisho May 26, 2008 15:08:33	Do you mean that they all have less HP, so combat is more dangerous? An emphasis is placed on getting through things without having to risk combat? Or do you mean that ammo is scarce? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
#3 akodo May 26, 2008 15:19:26	I jack the damage so any gun scene is very deadly. PCs tend to learn to take cover. shooting wildly also tends to fall to the wayside as I restrict who has the foreknowledge to arrive carrying 4 extra mags. The PC runs out of bullets once, he normally learns it is a bad thing, reloading is SLOW.
#4 dead1ock May 26, 2008 15:31:29	No, stats remain the same. Ammo isn't really scarce. But the missions aren't run and gun oriented. The main focus is mostly still on terminating the enemy with a bullet, but there aren't large gun fights and things like that. The PCs aren't law enforcement for the most part, so we realize that lots of gun fire will attract unwanted police attention to the situation. Basically, we just play in a slightly more realistic setting were a group of people can't run around with assault rifles and other large firearms. Or, where such firearms aren't easily attainable. It's a little more difficult to explain than i thought. I dunno... maybe this is more of a normal campaign than i initially thought.
#5 dead1ock May 26, 2008 15:56:38	I jack the damage so any gun scene is very deadly. PCs tend to learn to take cover. shooting wildly also tends to fall to the wayside as I restrict who has the foreknowledge to arrive carrying 4 extra mags. The PC runs out of bullets once, he normally learns it is a bad thing, reloading is SLOW. Good ideas there. I think i'll try implementing them into my games and see how the players like it.
#6 natanax May 26, 2008 16:25:17	I've been running a Military Game set in an alternate 1940's Europe (slightly fantastical where WW1 lasted 20 years and there was no America to break the Stalemate) where the PC's play a specialized group of soldiers who act as peace keepers in a post war wasteland. I came up with a simple system of weapon complications that makes weapon choice very important, as an SMG is good, but not if you don't have Burst Fire etc. As well I also use Miniatures for extremely carefully planned tactical combat. I also amped the damage of firearms and am using the Condition Track from Starwars, which means even 1 bullet can take you down (though not necessarily kill you) which means the PC's have to be careful. This has worked well for me and the PC's tend to plan carefully before unleashing chaos.
#7 nodaisho May 27, 2008 1:02:12	Oh, I see what you mean, Dead1ock, you know that as soon as the first guy pulls the trigger, you have very little time to finish whatever is going on and get the hell out of the area before there are more flashing lights than that epilepsy-inducing episode of pokemon. I think I know the feeling, though at the same time, games where you have large amounts of firepower can be fun, some of my favorite games have been military themed. One of them was really short, but emptying a BAR magazine in one round (houserule to add 5 to the DC or... either one or two dies to the damage by firing 20 shots in auto rather than 10) into an enemy transport truck was great, as was, in another, crafting a perfect plan using my squad to take out over a dozen enemies before they got off a shot. Still, putting more tension into the build-up of a battle and emphasizing being quick to finish and get away can be fun as well.
#8 doomsought May 27, 2008 10:51:04	I'd just like to increase the critical threat of a few guns a bit... Anything that can go in one end and out the other no matter where it hits you must have a Higher crit than a knife. That goes double for a .22, those things will bounce around INSIDE you like an angry bee. (crit 19-20 X3) Also lose the 2 dice system for every single bullet type, it breaks down around .50s.
#9 tema69 May 27, 2008 11:29:34	We run a variant history WW2 themed campaign, and when heavy weapons are used, the battle ends real fast. All weapons deal 1d extra damage, and we've changed MAS to be even deadlier. Some of my PCs learn to take cover - the rest recently died in an assault on an enemy chateau.
#10 brokenoakleys May 27, 2008 11:45:43	I like the idea of your campaign. It forces players to come up with solutions besides shoot. One thing I do in my campaign is limit ammo. Characters are in another dimension and have managed to acquire some strange looking handguns from fallen opponents. However, they have no idea how many 'rounds' are left (it's an energy wpn) and no idea of where to get more. It makes them really use their weapons carefully. A couple of untested ideas that just floated into my head: * Increase the damage of all firearms do that the average damage is around the average constitution, making massive damage more common; A 9mm that does 4d6 will do an average of 14 hp, meaning there will be a lot of massive damage. * Include other effects besides HP loss such as being stunned or dazed, to hit penalties and movement loss after being wounded, etc. * If you REALLY wanted to make shooting a gun a BIG BIG DEAL, make characters spend an action point draw and fire. Per shot might be too much, but per encounter. If you make it per encounter, it will encourage them to keep shooting, however (spent the action point, might as well make the most of it...). Not sure about this one... * If they work for a secret agency, they're going to have to justify their shooting and killing. Lot's o diplomacy (or bluff) checks, and possible sanctions like not being allowed to carry again, etc.
#11 nodaisho May 27, 2008 13:28:30	I think 4d6 for a 9mm would be too much, considering all of the places where it could hit you that wouldn't hit vitals (though it would still be unpleasant). Doomsought, a longer knife will go in and out of someone, does that mean it should have a higher threat than a smaller knife? Sure, it won't punch bone, but that is a function of damage, not critical range/multiplier. There is a damage chart floating around for changed gun damages, it needs a bit of tweaking (stabbist would probably remember what, he pointed the problems out), but for the most part it is good, it gives something like 2d20 for .50s, I suppose someone might argue it should do more dice with less damage each, but I suppose it is still possbile to get hit in the little toe with a .50.
#12 backstabbist May 27, 2008 15:15:11	I am a firm believer in the "LittleToe" / "Pinky" damage of anygun should be 2... not unrealistic to state 'minimum damage hit' is the same for all guns. Otherwise we would have to wonder about a little 2d2 .22cb doing Min2 Max4: Surely hit in the LittleToe with a 22cb would do less than hit n the same spot with a BMG. I just did the numbercrunch in another thread, but the idea is that there are very VERY few combinations of two d20's that add upto 2 (1 in 400?) whereas there are way more combinations that add upro 2 with a 2d6 gun (1:36). You are 10x more likely to do more than 2 with a BMG than with a 9mm: 399 vs 35 rolls that are more than 2. With a 2d6 gun, if you only did 2 damage you must have hit the "LittleToe" (1in36). With a 2d12 gun, for you to do just 2 damage you must have hit just the "Very Tip of the Little Toe" (1 in 400) Although, I also feel they should have gone with generic gun classes 2d8 Carbine / AR 2d10 Rifle 2d12 Magnum Rifle 2d20 BMG class and the Sqirr101 damages did ok with that.
#13 doomsought May 27, 2008 15:43:45	A fifty cal in the finger will likely remove the whole finger, A .20 might not even get through the bone. So by you logic Every weapon does 2Dx damage, even a massive lazer, or tank cannon? Hmm, doesn't quite work that way, Around the .50 you have weapons act more like small cannons than smaller guns. Fifties have been used as Anti-tank weapons, so the system definitely breaks down when you think about it.
#14 nodaisho May 27, 2008 16:50:29	Yes, a massive laser could do 2 damage, it just hits with the very edge, heck, no blood, it cauterizes. Maybe if the shock from the large amount of heat caused extra damage, or maybe convection causes the person to light on fire, I could see it doing more than 2d__, same with explosives, the explosive means it won't just hit the little finger. Course, at the very edge of the explosive's range, the damage could be only 1 or 2, because a tiny little fragment just barely nicked you, but getting directly hit with an explosive shell means that unless it just goes through you, it will hit you for a good amount of damage (barring a tiny little explosion).
#15 backstabbist May 27, 2008 20:05:35	So by you logic Every weapon does 2Dx damage, even a massive lazer, or tank cannon? Hmm, doesn't quite work that way, Yes, yes it does. If we give a Rhinemetal140 a 2d100 damage with APDS(xxxxx) then it will do 2-200 damage. How can a 40mm slug at mach4 do just 2damage? Same way a 30-06 does it, you didnt hit center mass. You hit off to the side of the target for less damage. You just have to closer & closer to the edge of the target to do 2 damage with the bigger slugs. Heck, I put a 2" crease on the front of a whitetail with a .35" 200gr SoftPoint. Did I miss? No. Clearly that barely bleeding crease was cause by my bullet. But I hit so close to the edge that it did just a 2" crease rather blowing the shoulder off the Louisana DogDeer (80lb in the hoof). I already explained that the frequency of actually doing just 2 damage is far lower for a 50BMG than a 9mm. But I'll do your tankgun too: 2d100 Rhinemetal140 means that for ever 2damage roll there shoule be 9,999 hits that do more than 2. For ever 9mm that does just 2 damage, there shgould be 35 hits that do more than 2. If you shoot 100 times with a 9mm, you would fairly expect to do just 2damage 3 times. If you shoot the tankgun 100 times, you would fairly expect not to get another 2damage for at least 5000 or 6000 more shots. You got just a .003 deep crease on the tip of your pinky, that may or maynot even bleed. Just because it was a 50BMG that barely nicked you doent NOT make your entire body above the belt explode. It doesnt rip your arm off at the shoulder. It doesnt blow all the fingers off your hand. It is a little nick that might not even bleed. Any KE projectile can hit you so close to missing that it leaves a little 2damage nick. It is just that for each 2point nick a tankgun gives, it gives 9999 hits that are not nicks. For each 2point nick a 9mm gives, it only gives 35 hits that are more than nick before it it becomes likely to give another 2pointer. Do not introduce extra dice of explosives in active ordinance munitions to a 2dX slug formula. If you are interested in the big boys, have Tema show you the WW2 cannon rules for guns where Caliber measures lengths rather than widths.
#16 akodo May 27, 2008 21:28:42	bah, I find it easier to call a "fail by 1" a 'inconsequential flesh wound' especially in those situations where the only way you can 'miss' is to roll a 1. It also makes for better storytelling, there are far more 'fail by 1 or 2' per game than 'snakeyes' i.e. a pair of 1s on damage. remember, not rolling high enough to do damage doesn't necessarily mean you missed. Same with melee combat, it just means your glancing blow didn't do any damage of consequence. It's like stubbing your toe, it might hurt, but you can never stub your toe enough to kill yourself.
#17 doomsought May 28, 2008 12:06:32	It's not the lazer boiling your flesh that kills you, its the Boiling flesh becoming superheated steam and ripping the rest of you flesh from your bones. Like wise the kinetic energy from those realy big guns is such that even if it just scratches you, you have a good large chunk of flesh gone. I have to be with akodo on the miss part. Back to the topic: roll a listen check with a low DC (that of hearing the gunshot at a certain distance) Based on the stats for your average Police officer. then a moral role, to see if they call backup before coming.
#18 backstabbist May 28, 2008 16:46:47	Miss by only 1 is a MISS. Sweat in your eye, bugs, target sneazed... could be any freakish circumstance that makes you miss. To call a miss by on a hit, you go against your earlier premiss that a 50BMG will blow torsos apart with a graze. The idea that it was a glancing blow comes from old D&D trying to explain why I can only stab a guy that is tied up once every 6 seconds. Lost of pokes & jabs, but only 1 is a damage doing hit. Funny thing though, that completely falls apart with magnun rifles & up. I'll roll tohit, you tell me if I hit or not, then we will read the paper that says if the ammo is contact fused explosive. Then you can backpedal that your barely scratched "missed by one" somehow scratched without coming in contact & detonating the warhead. If you didnt "hit" then you missed. It is even worse with the LeatherJacket making 16" naval guns "miss by 1". Either that 2700lb bullet hit, or it didnt.... and if it hit, it would do 2d900: No bloody likely to roll "2 damage". But we have to have the 2dX for rule compatibility. Consider the 5" Rapid Navalgun with a DoubleTap is it a 12d10 gun that does 12d10 +1d10 DTap, or is it a 2d60 gun that does 2d60 + 1d60 DTap, and 3" SuperRapid auto BurstFire for 2d45 +2d45
#19 nodaisho May 28, 2008 17:11:14	I think you would also need to check for someone else hearing the shot and calling the police, and then whether or not they can tell the dispatcher what they need to hear or if they just babble incoherently, not just checking for police hearing the shot. And I am pretty sure that they are supposed to report shots fired before going to check it out.
#20 nadaka May 29, 2008 0:42:21	I actually did a chart once to see how far I could push minimum damage = 2 without rerolling. I got up to 116 average damage using 6 dice or less. big table
#21 doomsought May 29, 2008 10:28:09	Moving Dice damage argument to new thread
#22 zeful May 29, 2008 16:12:47	Barret Light Fifty and Double Tap, that's all I'll say.
#23 nodaisho May 29, 2008 18:34:02	Yeah, but you are gonna need a pretty big case to hide that in, even a cello wouldn't work.
#24 doomsought May 29, 2008 20:33:27	Use a base instead... that also gives you room for some clean up equipment. That reminds me of a fun weapon I was thinking of. An Ionizing radiation Laser, instead of damage it provokes a save based on the radiation sickness table. It uses a ranged tough attack, and is the perfect assassins weapon, it has no sound unless there is blooming, and the target won't even know until it is too late. Even more important, Radiation poisoning won't induce a murder investigation.
#25 nodaisho May 29, 2008 22:55:22	That reminds me of a weapon in a book I read. It was the Starfist: Force Recon series, it was a maser or something, you had to be incredibly precise and hold it in the exact same spot for a good period of time, otherwise you would just give the target a bad sunburn. But it was silent and clean, so it worked. edit: Wait, do you mean a bass, like the instrument? Or do you mean just sniping from an area you set up with the gun previously? I guess a double bass might work, not sure the dimensions on one of those. All the room would be taken up by the gun, the scope, and extra magazines, though. .50s are big.
#26 doomsought May 30, 2008 12:15:12	It may be Base... its the really big string instrument... the one that is tall as the player. I may still have the name wrong but you could probably fit a small mortar in there too.
#27 brokenoakleys May 30, 2008 16:10:05	I agree that 4d6 is unrealistic for a 9mm. So is 1d6, 2d6, 1d4+2d12, etc. That's because, IMHO, the whole idea of HP is unrealistic. As anyone who has had a broken bone, fracture, serious cut, etc. knows, injuries don't just 'damage' you, they incapacitate and debilitate. Moreover, it isn't just the 'damage' that you take that impacts you, but also the shock and pain. Thus the whole idea that someone can take 20 out of 25 hp damage and still jump, run and fight as if they just had a bowl of wheaties isn't realistic at all. But I understand that HP, while not realistic, are a usable and playable system, and that it is designed with heroic action movie type characters in mind: the type that get shot 10 times and can stil fight. With that in mind, let me explain why I proposed doubling the damage: it isn't to add realism, but to make the use of firearms more significant and daunting, as Dead1ock is trying to do. Doubling ALL firearm damage is one way to move the game away from the 'action movie get shot more than once and keep going' style. So would adding consequences like fort saves against being stunned, etc. if hit.
#28 backstabbist May 30, 2008 18:49:08	No, stats remain the same. Ammo isn't really scarce. But the missions aren't run and gun oriented. The main focus is mostly still on terminating the enemy with a bullet, but there aren't large gun fights and things like that. The PCs aren't law enforcement for the most part, so we realize that lots of gun fire will attract unwanted police attention to the situation. Basically, we just play in a slightly more realistic setting were a group of people can't run around with assault rifles and other large firearms. Or, where such firearms aren't easily attainable. It's a little more difficult to explain than i thought. I recall a movie that kinda exposed what happens to PC parties that decide to go with the G3/Aug/AR/AK style of egressing an encounter. They did a wonderful job of geting to the car, but then Val Kilmer rolled well for Spot and decided the best way to tell DeNiro he saw a cop was to empty a magazine of rifle autofire at the cop. Their plan degraded rapidly from that point.
#29 nodaisho May 30, 2008 22:55:00	Yeah, probably should have stuck with just driving like hell, if they kept themselves surrounded by traffic the cops couldn't get a clean shot, and they don't want to risk shooting civilians. Pretty sure there weren't any AUGs, though, and the G3 was an HK91. The Galil was nice, though, you really got the feeling that Sizemore's character was knowledgeable about his guns.
#30 backstabbist May 15, 2009 15:38:18	There is also the big threat of the guys you need to talk to (and maybe the guys you need to kill) will panic / run away with the rest of the paniced sheep before you get to talk/kill them