Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 space_cadet Oct 23, 2009 17:33:06	I was in Target, and bought the first season on DVD at a very cheap price for $5. I was thinking, this would be a great setting for a D20 Campaign. The main characters are: Flash Gordon, Dale, Hans Zarkov, Aura, Ming the Merciless, it appears semi D&Dism with futuristic devices thrown in, or perhaps its a technological setting with a few elements of magic. What do you think of this concept? Lets hear your opinions.
#2 TheRealOrion Oct 23, 2009 18:34:59	Are you talking about the one from a few years ago where Flash is a teenager and it's inflected with 'boarding culture? Not a great cartoon but could be fun as a setting (a lot of less-than-stellar action/adventure stories are great for gaming). What you're looking at is that cheaky mix of fantasy and sci-fi called "space opera." Think of Buck Rogers or Jack Kirby's Fourth World, for example. It's basically a fantasy setting, with mystical powers and often melee weapons as the mainstay, but all the fantasy is explained in vaguely sci-fi terms, but with the occasional bit of mysticism thrown in. Something like the Green Lantern Corps is like that; ostensibly SF, but there's not even a pseduo-scientific explanation offered. Given all of that, I'd suggest using the in-game mechanics of magic items, but calling them "super science" or something like that. So instead of a "wand of Flamestrike," it's a "blaster." Instead of a "vorpal sword," it's a "lightsabre," and what have you. It'll take some rejigging. You can't just do it straight over, but you can get away with using a lot of the same stats and rules as for magic because space opera is such a fantasy-inflected kind of science fiction. If you find it's really giving you trouble, you're welcome to look at the supertech rules in Phoenix (check my sig!) and see if they'd be useful for your game. If you go that route, PM me with any questions or suggestions you might have. Not trying to plug my game, here. Just offering in case it's useful to you. Oh, check out the Pulp rules from d20 Past as well. Some of those Tesla-age SF rules might be useful for you.
#3 space_cadet Oct 24, 2009 8:50:23	Are you talking about the one from a few years ago where Flash is a teenager and it's inflected with 'boarding culture? Not a great cartoon but could be fun as a setting (a lot of less-than-stellar action/adventure stories are great for gaming). What you're looking at is that cheaky mix of fantasy and sci-fi called "space opera." Think of Buck Rogers or Jack Kirby's Fourth World, for example. It's basically a fantasy setting, with mystical powers and often melee weapons as the mainstay, but all the fantasy is explained in vaguely sci-fi terms, but with the occasional bit of mysticism thrown in. Something like the Green Lantern Corps is like that; ostensibly SF, but there's not even a pseduo-scientific explanation offered. Given all of that, I'd suggest using the in-game mechanics of magic items, but calling them "super science" or something like that. So instead of a "wand of Flamestrike," it's a "blaster." Instead of a "vorpal sword," it's a "lightsabre," and what have you. It'll take some rejigging. You can't just do it straight over, but you can get away with using a lot of the same stats and rules as for magic because space opera is such a fantasy-inflected kind of science fiction. If you find it's really giving you trouble, you're welcome to look at the supertech rules in Phoenix (check my sig!) and see if they'd be useful for your game. If you go that route, PM me with any questions or suggestions you might have. Not trying to plug my game, here. Just offering in case it's useful to you. Oh, check out the Pulp rules from d20 Past as well. Some of those Tesla-age SF rules might be useful for you. I think you are confusing Flash Gordon with The Flash from DC Comics perhaps. Flash Gordon is not a superhero, he is just a hero, he doesn't have any superpowers The Flash Gordon in this Cartoon does not look like a teenager, He arrives at the planet Mongo to try to prevent an imminent collision between it and Earth, its mostly science fiction with fantasy elements. The planet Mongo is very D&Dish in that its home to a myriad of intelligent races, monsters, and carniverous plants. There are a few spell casters, but mostly people deal with things using various types of science fiction rayguns, or in prince Barons case, a sort of bow that shoots arrows that freezes things. There is a Lion-like race with characters like Thun, there is a race of winged humans. Ming has his army of robots and so forth. This cartoon first appeared on saturday mornings in 1978.
#4 The_Silversword Oct 24, 2009 8:52:21	Flash! AHHHHHHH AHHHHHHH Savior of the Universe!
#5 space_cadet Oct 24, 2009 11:29:59	Quoted from Wikapedia Description The animated series first season follows, more or less, the traditional Flash Gordon mythos, opening with the launch of the rocketship carrying Flash, Dale Arden, and Dr. Zarkov from somewhere in the Eastern Hemisphere (or at least the opening scene shows the ship clearing Earth's atmosphere above Europe and the Middle East). The series actually opens with the crash of the Terran ship into an ocean on Mongo after being attacked during the final approach to the planet. In the opening scenes, after being captured by Ming's Gill Men, Gordon, Arden, and Zarkov meet King Thun the Lion-man and Prince Barin of the forest-kingdom of Arboria. This coincidence (meeting reigning royalty of two different realms by apparent chance) sets much of the tone of the series, in which it must be concluded either that logic is irrelevant, or that Destiny is at work in the arrival of Flash Gordon on Mongo. The remainder of the first season consists of the adventures of Gordon and company across the face of Mongo, in traditional pulp style passing from one near-death situation to another with a cheery disregard for probability or logic, and a definite sense of fun. The protagonists meet Emperor Ming almost immediately, and Ming is revealed as being the classic archetype of the Evil Overlord. Flash later gains the aid of King Vultan, ruler of the Hawk-Men as a friend and ally, and also gains the attention of many of Mongo's female monarchs, such as Queen Undina of Coralia, Queen Fria of Frigia, Azura, the Witch-Queen of Syk, and Queen Desira of Tropica. But the most notable of these admirers was, of course, Princess Aura. Mongo the Planet Mongo is Earth-like, and is portrayed as boasting a rich variety of biomes, ranging from the polar ice of Frigia, the domain of Queen Fria, to the lush jungle and hot desert of Tropica, Queen Desira's demesne. Vast forests give Prince Barin's realm of Arboria its name, and there are deep and shallow oceans inhabited by many life forms. Temperature and weather extremes are quite comparable to those of Earth, and the biology of Mongo appears to be based on the same biochemistry as that of Earth. Certainly Flash, Dale, and Hans ingest food from Mongo with no ill effects. Mongo's surface gravity appears to be a bit less than that of Earth, or at least there are comments on occasion that Terrans are stronger on Mongo than they are on Earth. The difference in surface gravity can not be too great, however, because Mongo is so Earth-like, and Terrans on Mongo are by no means superhuman. Mongo's crust is host to highly extensive underground tunnels and chambers, more so than Earth (as far as is known), including an entire underground realm, Syk, the "witch-kingdom". Peoples of Mongo Mongo is home to a variety of races of sapient life, though the most common breed appears, at least on the surface, to be classic H. sapiens. Along with the humans of Mongo, though, are the Lion-men, a race of humanoid cat-creatures, the Hawk-men, who have angel-like wings on their backs and are skilled aerial fliers, the undersea people of Coralia, a race of waterbreathers who are apparently descended from air-breathing Humans, a race of giants found (at least) in Frigia, Ming's infamous Lizard-men and Lizard-women, reptilian, tailed humanoids apparently dedicated to Ming, and a race of primitive humanoids kept artificially primitive by Ming. Additionally, Ming rules a race of 'Gill-men' who breathe water and who are separate from (and enemies to) the water-breathing Humans of Coralia. This huge variety of humanoid life seems an improbable result of purely Darwinian evolution. At the very least, it is known that the people of Coralia adapted themselves artificially to underwater existence, and in fact retain the technology to transform air breathers such as Flash and Dale and Hans into water-breathers, and back again. They do appear to be unable to create beings able to operate in both media, however, one is either an air or a water breather. It would seem likely, though of course unconfirmed, that many of the various races of Mongo are the result of genetic manipulation, eugenic projects, and other artificial means of inducing change, over the course of Mongo's vast history. Probably H. sapiens is the base stock for most if not all Mongo's living intelligent races, but the points of divergence would likely date very far back in the past. Ming the Merciless The chief villain of the series is Ming the Merciless, archetype of the Evil Overlord. Cruel, cold, arrogant, avaricious, ruthless, and Machiavellian, Ming is the epitome of the tyrant. Yet he is brilliant, referred to by some as the greatest scientist in the universe, and politically and diplomatically capable. He is skilled in personal combat, but feels no compulsion to engage in it when misdirection will work as well. His personal race is unclear, his ears are pointed, his teeth seem fanged, his frame oddly thin yet very strong...and he claims to be immortal, with some supporting evidence. He also appears to have some Asian features, a stark contrast to that of his daughter, Aura. His sexual tastes seem varied, to judge by the various types of female we see in glimpses of his harem, but he seems to find Dale Arden particularly attractive, and his daughter Aura seems to be a H. sapiens, so presumably Ming is not very alien. His origin may tie in to the nature of Syk, the Witch-Kingdom. His resources are immense, with armies of robots, armies of humans and other species, a fleet of armed rocket ships and spacecraft...and access to even more impressive technologies. However, he does seem to fear the possibility of a united rebellion on Mongo, because he seems to work to keep the races at each other's throats.
#6 space_cadet Oct 24, 2009 14:08:51	Flash Gordon Class: Strong Hero 3/Fast Hero 3/Charismatic Hero 3 Character Level: 9 Starting Occupation: Athlete Age: 24 Gender: male Height: 6 feet, 3 inches Weight: 200 pounds Eyes: Blue Hair: blonde Skin: light caucasian Abilities STR 18 Strength Mod +4 DEX 16 Dexterity Mod +3 CON 12 Constitution Mod +1 INT 13 Intelligence Mod +1 WIS 13 Wisdom Mod +1 CHA 20 Charisma Mod +5 Hit Dice 6d8+3d6+9 HP 42 hit points DEFENSE 20 = 10 + 2 Str Hero + 4 Fst Hero + +1 Cha Hero + 0 Eqp Bns + 3 Dex + 0 Size + 0 Misc Initiative +3 = 3 Dex + 0 Misc modifier Base Attack +6 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero bonus Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) Saving Throws Fortitude +6 = 2 Str Hero + 1 Fst Hero + 2 Cha Hero + 1 Con (Constitution) Reflex +8 = 1 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 2 Cha Hero + 3 Dex (Dexterity) Will +4 = 1 Str Hero + 1 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 1 Wis (Wisdom) Reputation +0 Action Points 27 Wealth Bonus +0 Attacks Melee +9 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 4 Str attack bonus Ranged +8 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 3 Dex attack bonus Weapon Attacks Laser pistol +8 Ranged Small 2d8/x2, Medium 2d10/x2, 100 ft., 2.5 pounds, heat, small Laser carbine +8 Ranged Small 3d6/x2, Medium 3d8/x2, 135 ft., 5 pounds, heat, small Laser rifle +8 Ranged Small 3d8/x2, Medium 3d10/x2, 180 ft., 8 pounds, heat, medium Crossbow with ice bolts +8 Ranged Small 1d8+1d8/19-20 cold damage, Medium 1d10+1d10/19-20 cold damage, 120 ft., 8 pounds, piercing+cold, Medium Ice Spear +8 Ranged Small 1d6+1d6/x3 cold damage, Medium 1d8+1d8/x3 cold damage, 20 ft., 8 pounds, piercing+cold, large Longsword +9 Melee Small 1d6+4/19-20, Medium 1d8+4/19-20, 4 pounds, slashing, medium Club +9 Melee Small 1d4+4/x2, Medium 1d6+4/x2, 3 pounds, bludgeoning, medium Dagger (thrown) +8 Ranged Small 1d3/19-20, Medium 1d4/19-20, 10 ft., 1 pound, piercing, small Dagger (held) +9 Melee Small 1d3+4/19-20, Medium 1d4+4/19-20, 1 pound, slashing, small Unarmed strike +9 Melee Small 1d2+4/x2, Medium 1d3+4/x2, bludgeoning Skills balance 3 (+3 dex) +6, bluff 2 (+5 cha) +7, climb 2 (+4 str) +6, craft 2 (structural ) (+1 int) +3, craft 3 (mechanical ) (+1 int) +4, craft 2 (visual art) (+1 int) +3, craft 2 (writing) (+1 int) +3, diplomacy 6 (+5 cha) +11, disguise 6 (+5 cha) +11, drive 4 (+3 dex) +7, escape artist 3 (+3 dex) +6, gather information 5 (+5 cha) +10, handle animal 6 (+5 cha) +11, hide 3 (+3 dex) +6, intimidate 3 (+5 cha) +8, jump 3 (+4 str) +7, knowledge 3 (current events) (+1 int) +4, knowledge 2 (popular culture) (+1 int) +3, knowledge 1 (tactics) (+1 int) +2, knowledge 1 (streetwise) (+1 int) +2, knowledge 3 (philosophy) (+1 int) +4, knowledge 3 (civics) (+1 int) +4, move silently 3 (+3 dex) +6, perform 4 (act) (+5 cha) +9, perform 4 (dance) (+5 cha) +9, perform 4 (sing) (+5 cha) +9, pilot 4 (+3 dex) +6, profession 4 (Athlete) (+1 wis) +5, read/write lang. 1 (German) (_), read/write lang. 1 (Russian) (_), read/write lang. 1 (Mongolese) (_), repair 2 (+1 int) +3, ride 3 (+3 dex) +6, sleight of hand 1 (+3 dex) +4, speak language 1 (German) (_), speak language 1 (Russian) (_), speak language 1 (Mongolese) (_), swim 3 (+4 str) +7, tumble 2 (+3 dex) +5.
#7 TheRealOrion Oct 24, 2009 21:52:22	No no, I know who The Flash is. The groaning and creaking of my bookcases stuffed with comics will attest to that. You didn't say which Flash Gordon series you were talking about, though; there have been many. The 'boarder teenager version is from the early 2000s maybe, and there was just a short-lived live-action show on Sci-Fi (I refuse to use their incredibly stupid new name). I think the character started in black-and-white serials, but he might go back to the pulps. I suggested my superhero game because that genre is actually very closely related to space opera. Space opera was a pulp phenomenon back in the 30s, and a lot of the pulps got translated into comics and then embelished. Anyway, I won't go into the publication history; I just thought you might find the ideas in Phoenix useful.
#8 space_cadet Oct 25, 2009 6:04:20	No no, I know who The Flash is. The groaning and creaking of my bookcases stuffed with comics will attest to that. You didn't say which Flash Gordon series you were talking about, though; there have been many. The 'boarder teenager version is from the early 2000s maybe, and there was just a short-lived live-action show on Sci-Fi (I refuse to use their incredibly stupid new name). I think the character started in black-and-white serials, but he might go back to the pulps. I suggested my superhero game because that genre is actually very closely related to space opera. Space opera was a pulp phenomenon back in the 30s, and a lot of the pulps got translated into comics and then embelished. Anyway, I won't go into the publication history; I just thought you might find the ideas in Phoenix useful. I just read part of the Phoenix Project, and I think you might be right, that said, the Flash Gordon I'm talking about doesn't have any overt superpowers, nothing really overt that you could point to and say is a superpower. One reoccuring theme in the animated series, however are all those princesses that keep on falling for him, most notably Ming's Daughter Princess Aura. Flash seems to do a lot with that "magnetic personality" of his, where would he be without Aura's quarelling with her father, or the occasional prison break she arranges for Flash. One of the elements of Flashes personality is his Charisma, after all the whole series is about him and his collegues organizing a planetary rebellion against Ming the Merciless and his Empire.
#9 space_cadet Oct 25, 2009 9:17:12	Just a side note. All those weapons I listed as Flash Gordon's attacks, aren't necessarily the weapons he carries along from adventure to adventure, in other words those are the weapons he might typically encounter, pick up, and use on the planet Mongo, its not that he's a "walking arsenal". The "freeze arrows and spears" and crossbows from from the Kingdom of Arboria, the realm of Prince Barin of course. In the cartoon, Flash Gordon seems to have a knack for picking up alien weapondry and using it, or operationg alien vehicles. Dr. Hans Zarkov is one of those geniuses that is so smart that even the leader of a technologically superior planet to Earth, that is Ming himself, respects his abilities. In comic book terms you could compare Zarkov's intelligence to that of Lex Luthor in DC comic books, he can pick up the alien technology of Mongo, and after a period of study, he can modify it to his own ends. As mentioned in the above Wikapedia quote, Mongo was a weaker gravitational field than Earth, lets say that is has 80% of Earth's gravitational pull. The cartoon seems to indicate also that Mongo is substatially larger than Earth as well, so much of this weaker gravity may be attributed to Mongo's lower density than Earth. The Terrans or Earthlings, that is Zarkov, Arden, and Gordon are consequentially stronger than they appear to most Mongol natives. Probably Dale Arden's strength is the equivalent to any one of Ming's human or humanoid male soldiers, and she can put up quite a fight if cornered. Flash Gordon typically bashes multiple opponents whenever he gets within melee range. Hans Zarkov is no slouch either.
#10 space_cadet Oct 25, 2009 13:59:40	Here's my latest Flash Gordon stats Flash Gordon Class: Strong Hero 3/Fast Hero 3/Charismatic Hero 3 Character Level: 9 Starting Occupation: Athlete Age: 24 Gender: male Height: 6 feet, 3 inches Weight: 200 pounds Eyes: Blue Hair: blonde Skin: light caucasian Abilities STR 18 Strength Mod +4 DEX 16 Dexterity Mod +3 CON 12 Constitution Mod +1 INT 13 Intelligence Mod +1 WIS 13 Wisdom Mod +1 CHA 20 Charisma Mod +5 Hit Dice 6d8+3d6+9 HP 42 hit points DEFENSE 20 = 10 + 2 Str Hero + 4 Fst Hero + +1 Cha Hero + 0 Eqp Bns + 3 Dex + 0 Size + 0 Misc Initiative +3 = 3 Dex + 0 Misc modifier Base Attack +6 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero bonus Speed 30 ft. (6 squares) Saving Throws Fortitude +6 = 2 Str Hero + 1 Fst Hero + 2 Cha Hero + 1 Con (Constitution) Reflex +8 = 1 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 2 Cha Hero + 3 Dex (Dexterity) Will +4 = 1 Str Hero + 1 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 1 Wis (Wisdom) Reputation +0 Action Points 27 Wealth Bonus +0 Attacks Melee +9 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 4 Str attack bonus Ranged +8 = 3 Str Hero + 2 Fst Hero + 1 Cha Hero + 3 Dex attack bonus Weapon Attacks Laser pistol +8 Ranged Small 2d8/x2, Medium 2d10/x2, 100 ft., 2.5 pounds, heat, small Laser carbine +8 Ranged Small 3d6/x2, Medium 3d8/x2, 135 ft., 5 pounds, heat, small Laser rifle +8 Ranged Small 3d8/x2, Medium 3d10/x2, 180 ft., 8 pounds, heat, medium Crossbow with ice bolts +8 Ranged Small 1d8+1d8/19-20 cold damage, Medium 1d10+1d10/19-20 cold damage, 120 ft., 8 pounds, piercing+cold, Medium Ice Spear +8 Ranged Small 1d6+1d6/x3 cold damage, Medium 1d8+1d8/x3 cold damage, 20 ft., 8 pounds, piercing+cold, large Longsword +9 Melee Small 1d6+4/19-20, Medium 1d8+4/19-20, 4 pounds, slashing, medium Club +9 Melee Small 1d4+4/x2, Medium 1d6+4/x2, 3 pounds, bludgeoning, medium Dagger (thrown) +8 Ranged Small 1d3/19-20, Medium 1d4/19-20, 10 ft., 1 pound, piercing, small Dagger (held) +9 Melee Small 1d3+4/19-20, Medium 1d4+4/19-20, 1 pound, slashing, small Unarmed strike +9 Melee Small 1d2+4/x2, Medium 1d3+4/x2, bludgeoning Skills balance 3 (+3 dex) +6, bluff 2 (+5 cha) +7, climb 2 (+4 str) +6, craft 2 (structural ) (+1 int) +3, craft 3 (mechanical ) (+1 int) +4, craft 2 (visual art) (+1 int) +3, craft 2 (writing) (+1 int) +3, diplomacy 6 (+5 cha) +11, disguise 6 (+5 cha) +11, drive 4 (+3 dex) +7, escape artist 3 (+3 dex) +6, gather information 5 (+5 cha) +10, handle animal 6 (+5 cha) +11, hide 3 (+3 dex) +6, intimidate 3 (+5 cha) +8, jump 3 (+4 str) +7, knowledge 3 (current events) (+1 int) +4, knowledge 2 (popular culture) (+1 int) +3, knowledge 1 (tactics) (+1 int) +2, knowledge 1 (streetwise) (+1 int) +2, knowledge 3 (philosophy) (+1 int) +4, knowledge 3 (civics) (+1 int) +4, move silently 3 (+3 dex) +6, perform 4 (act) (+5 cha) +9, perform 4 (dance) (+5 cha) +9, perform 4 (sing) (+5 cha) +9, pilot 4 (+3 dex) +6, profession 4 (Athlete) (+1 wis) +5, read/write lang. 1 (German) (_), read/write lang. 1 (Russian) (_), read/write lang. 1 (Mongolese) (_), repair 2 (+1 int) +3, ride 3 (+3 dex) +6, sleight of hand 1 (+3 dex) +4, speak language 1 (German) (_), speak language 1 (Russian) (_), speak language 1 (Mongolese) (_), swim 3 (+4 str) +7, tumble 2 (+3 dex) +5.
#11 TheRealOrion Oct 25, 2009 14:42:47	A lot of the stuff in that particular cartoon is also rationalising the original serials, where Flash just beat the snot out of all the "Mongo" bag guys (who, yes, were very much racist images of Chinese people, no question about that). Anyway, you could easily give him a temporary Strength bonus when he's on Mongo. I wasn't thinking of giving anyone powers, per se, but you can load powers into supertech devices. So an Energy Attack loaded into a gun-like device is a "blaster," and so on. One of the big differences between space opera and superheroes is that, as you say, they don't have powers, but they do have cool toys that might as well be magic. So using magic or "supertech" items can solve a lot of problems for you, rather than reinventing the wheel with technology rules. A really high Diplomacy score will get you most of where you want to go with Flash's ridiculous charm. Looks like it's shaping up, though. Have fun!
#12 space_cadet Oct 25, 2009 16:24:14	I think Ming was meant to be modeled on a Mongol such as Gengis Khan, the name of the planet Mongo is suggestive of that. Ming is called the Merciless, and so was Gengis Khan. Not all people of Mongo look Chinese, Prince Barin resembles a Germanic idea of Robin Hood with freeze arrows. I think we're past the point where its politically incorrect to have Chinese bad guys, we just have to remember to have non-Chinese bad guys as well. Aura does not resemble her father very much, probably because her mother wasn't Asian. Ming also appears to have some ancestry that isn't quite human, hence the fangs and the pointed ears. Many things shown in the Flash Gordon Cartoon seem to be quite plausible, rocket powered sleds on tracks seem to be one. Lasers are one type of ray gun. A lot of the spaceships shown in the cartoon are probably just aircraft with verticle landing and takeoff capability. Mings space capability seems to be rather short range as he has to maneuver the Planet Mongo close to Earth with his planetary drive in order to attack it. The planetary drive seems to be something else altogether, my guess is that its a sort of warp drive as I've never seen the planet go into hyperspace. Mongo has its own position in the Universe, the planetary drive seems to fold and stretch space around the planet Mongo in order to change the planet's position in the Universe, this position is maintained by the planetary drive which needs to expend energy in order to hold its position in Earth's Solar System, when Flash Gordon smashes the controls to the Planetary Drive, the planet "remembers" its original position when the tension in the space surrounding Mongo is released and the planet returns to its original star system at an FTL speed and resumes orbiting its own star. I think Ming has a number of planets under his thrall, that he periodically visits by moving Mongo around with his planetary drive, the planet spends very little time between the stars, so it doesn't freeze over due to a lack of a sun, that's how my interpretation of how the thing works in any case. This allows Ming to have a nomadic planet, and to visit all of his conquered planets in turn to exact tribute, if tribute is not offered, then he devastates the planet in question, much in the spirit of Gengis Khan.
#13 TheRealOrion Oct 25, 2009 16:57:03	I won't belabour the point past this post, but seriously, watch some of the old serials on YouTube. There was no question at the time that Ming and his people were "invading" Chinese immigrants. I remember one scene where they go on at length about how they will slowly take over the "Earth" (America) by establishing themselves in corner stores and dry-cleaning outlets. I am not making this up.If you look most representations of Ming, he has Chinese Imperial clothing and hair-style (long hair, long nails, long moustache). Of course there's a reference to Gengis Khan in there as well, because Gengis is a well-known historical villain, but that doesn't make all the references to Chinese culture suddenly disappear. I didn't say it was "bad" to have an Asian villain, by the way, just that the history of that particular villain is wrapped up in very specific anti-Asian xenophobia that was around in the late 1800s/early 1900s, and traces back directly to the Chinese labourers who helped us Americans and Canadians build our railroads, for which we repaid them by accusing them of "invading" our land even though us White people actually stole it from the Aboriginals. It's all tangled web of justifications for European colonialism, if you ask me. All that being said, if you've found a version that cancels for all that xenophobia, then have at it! Don't let me stop you. I'm just fascinated by how much period science fiction carries the beliefs and social values (including prejudices) of its day.
#14 space_cadet Oct 25, 2009 17:35:44	I won't belabour the point past this post, but seriously, watch some of the old serials on YouTube. There was no question at the time that Ming and his people were "invading" Chinese immigrants. I remember one scene where they go on at length about how they will slowly take over the "Earth" (America) by establishing themselves in corner stores and dry-cleaning outlets. I am not making this up.If you look most representations of Ming, he has Chinese Imperial clothing and hair-style (long hair, long nails, long moustache). Of course there's a reference to Gengis Khan in there as well, because Gengis is a well-known historical villain, but that doesn't make all the references to Chinese culture suddenly disappear. I didn't say it was "bad" to have an Asian villain, by the way, just that the history of that particular villain is wrapped up in very specific anti-Asian xenophobia that was around in the late 1800s/early 1900s, and traces back directly to the Chinese labourers who helped us Americans and Canadians build our railroads, for which we repaid them by accusing them of "invading" our land even though us White people actually stole it from the Aboriginals. It's all tangled web of justifications for European colonialism, if you ask me. All that being said, if you've found a version that cancels for all that xenophobia, then have at it! Don't let me stop you. I'm just fascinated by how much period science fiction carries the beliefs and social values (including prejudices) of its day. I think the author of the comic book wanted a villain that seemed foreign to his readers (Americans, and possibly British), the Asian Stereotype fit the bill well at the time, I think we've gone too far in the other direction in our current time period, though, and I feel it refreshing to find a comic book that doesn't appologize so much for western culture, Asians have demonized us aplenty after all and they're still doing it if you ask me. Our culture isn't perfect, but lately I feel we've been overly appologetic for it, and the Old Flash Gordon series tilt the scales in the other direction for a bit. The 1970s cartoon is what I go by, according to the Wikapedia entry, the original Flash Gordon was a Polo player, which makes me suspect that he was probably British, the 1978 cartoon has "Americanized" him basically by making him a football player. There was a Flash Gordon Cartoon feature which introduced the series which originally had Ming conspiring with Hitler to take over the world, but it got edited out. Well Hitler was a white European villain, so you'd think that would balance out Ming's Asian stereotype just a bit, so I don't understand why they cut out Hitler. Yes, according to the cartoon, Flash Gordon left an Earth in the Midst of World War II. Realistically the close pass of Mongo with respect to Earth would have disrupted quite a few historical events with all the gigantic tides that would have been produced. Mongo appears not to have a global ocean the way Earth does, so Earth's gravity would have just triggered alot of Earthquakes on Mongo. Which appears to have been shown in the cartoon as well. All those flooded cities on Earth, probably would have disrupted a lot of Hitler's plans and those of the Allies. I guess you could say that I'm not a big fan of the Sci Fi Channel's version of Flash Gordon. For one, they changed too many premises, so much so that to me, it wasn't Flash Gordon anymore. One of the changes they made was to make Ming the Merciless white, what was that all about, someone exorcising his guilty conscious about the past usage of the Asian villainous stereotype? I think it doesn't make amends, I didn't much like making Starbuck a female in the new Battlestar Galactica, I don't much like people inserting these liberal statements into the script or characterization of new versions of old science fiction because they feel its the politically correct thing to do or because they have to. For whatever reason good or bad, Ming is an "Asian" character, and I think we should keep with the authentic original without a good story reason, not a political reason, to change it. Santa Clause is a white fat guy with a beard, I see no reason to make him a "black skinny woman" for the purposes of equal opportunity. I think the setting could be made more scientifically plausible though, just a little tweak in that direction perhaps. Have some scientific explaination for how Ming moves the planet around, like I just added, have it consistent. Sword swinging aside, we could have a consistent principle by which the spaceships and aircraft operate. Most of the science is not all that way out there if you really look at what it is. I think even Prince Barin's freeze arrows could be built, I think it makes sense to fire them from abow rather than a gun, because the chemical explosive would generate too much heat in propelling the projectile out the muzzle of the gun, for example. Some things are superscience however so we just leave them as they are.
#15 TheRealOrion Oct 26, 2009 1:36:08	I think you're confusing and conflating a lot of different things, there. I don't know how deliberately using xenophobia somehow excuses it, and it's utter nonsense to claim that acknowledging systematic racism is somehow anti-Western. I'm anti-racism. It just so happens that colonialism is an inherently racist practise, and the West undertook a lot of colonialism. Yes, other cultures did it too (which is the next thing you'll say), but so what? Two wrongs (many wrongs, in this case) do not make a right. I'm not sure what "other direction" you're talking about either. The "other direction" away racism is not racism. To believe that anything even remotely like the systemic racism that people of colour in the West have had to face is now bearing down on Caucasians is to delude yourself. Anybody who makes that claim is either ignorant or trying to recruit you. And by the way, the very same wiki entry you read from states that Flash went to Yale, which is in America, so your assumption that he was originally British is very odd indeed.  Having a White villain next to a vicious stereotype of an Asian doesn't cancel for the racism. Firstly, you're assuming that the one just negates the other, and secondly, you're ignoring the virulent and powerful anti-German prejudice the Anglophone world has carried since WWI and WWII. There were internment camps for American and Canadian Germans during WWII, for example, just as there were for Japanese. "White" and "other" are not the only two races, and people of the same racial groups (Caucasians, Asians, Africans, etc.) are perfectly capable of forming racial prejudices against each other. Just ask the Koreans, the Nigerians, or the Irish. You seem to assume, furthermore, that writers and performers who alter the gender or race of characters do so only out of guilt or pressure from... somebody? I'm not sure who. I'm not sure you're sure who. Ronald D. Moore made his Starbuck a woman because it was fun to play that character with the gender flipped and because, if his podcasts are to be believed, he's a firm believer in gender equality. Voluntarily, I might add, and based on a lifetime of reading and observing humanity and deciding that we'd be better off as an egalitarian society. Can I say, also, that the only times I've ever heard "political correctness" invoked is as a strawman. It doesn't have a character of its own; it's just "bad thing" that people can denigrate in absentia. So taking a stand against this thing that has no definition is not brave or admirable. It's actually quite cowardly to puff your chest up in front of something that can't possibly hurt you. You also keep invoking the "authentic" original, as if that had inherent superiority to whatever reinterpretations came after, but the verion of Flash Gordon that you favour, this cartoon from the 70s, is just such an interpretation, and you seem to like some of those changes (making him a football player, for example). So it's really not that you want to stick to the "authentic" or "original" version of the character out of some sense of loyalty. I would venture to say that it's more likely that you simply are picking a version with which you're comfortable, one that you (spuriously) identify as more American, and one that includes a detectable level of background racism that doesn't happen to bother you. It's really telling that you want to sweep all that very real, socially-powerful racist imagery under a rug and claim "oh well, that's just the way it is," but you then turn around and express a desire to see the science rendered "accurately." Apparently, constructing and perpetuating racist stereotypes is less important than reasoning out how a 3/4's water planet's gravity would affect a planet without water, as if that were actually pertinant to a high-concept space-opera story where bipeds with wings can fly (look it up). Your sense of priorities is kind of baffling, to be frank, and seems more like a distraction ploy than anything else.  I'm sorry to have dragged the thread even further off-topic. I really didn't mean to. I made an off-hand comment about the blatantly obvious racist imagery in Flash Gordon and you ran with it, so this is me responding to you. I'm done now. If you want the last word, go right ahead: repeat a few more tired old right-wing talk-radio sound bites (whether you realise that's where you got them or now) and you can get back to setting up your game world.
#16 space_cadet Oct 26, 2009 11:19:12	... . I really didn't mean to. I made an off-hand comment about the blatantly obvious racist imagery in Flash Gordon and you ran with it, so this is me responding to you. I'm done now. If you want the last word, go right ahead: repeat a few more tired old right-wing talk-radio sound bites (whether you realise that's where you got them or now) and you can get back to setting up your game world. I think science is important, and I see no reason not to have accurate science where it does not disrupt the story. There is less bogus science in Flash Gordon than you may think. The early science fiction tended to focus on interplanetary adventures rather than interstellar. The fact that most of the stories in Flash Gordon happen on just one planet make the science a bit more realistic than say Star Wars for example. That brings me to the second topic If I was going to reimagine Flash Gordon, I would do it very conservatively, that is try to stick to the original themes as much as possibly while tweaking it towards more plausible science. A roving planet going from star system to star system is much in the spirit of that old science fiction show Space 1999. In Space 1999, the Moon escapes from Earth orbit due to an explosion of radioactive waste, and then embarks on a merry journey visiting one inhabited planet after the next. I think there must be a better way to do this. Imagine Mongo in its native solar system, it orbits a sunlike star admist a still forming solar system, orbiting further out are a number of planet-sized stargates that Ming controls, and one happens to have one end of it apparently on a collision course with Earth, the brilliant yet eccentric scientist means to stop it, and to that effect he builds a rocket ship at his secret base in Switzerland during World War II. Hans Zarkov is the son of a Russian Immigrant who was a member of the old Russian aristocracy who was fleeing the Bolshevik revolution to save his life, there he met a Swiss woman of German ancestry, the two got married and they had a son they named Hans. Hans Zarkov decided the best thing to do would be to remain in Switzerland as war raged outside his country between his two ancestral homelands. Hans detected the imminent collision of something he misidentified as a "cometary planet" with Earth, he further detected artificial signals coming from it, and so he built his rocket and lured Dale Arden and Flash Gordon onboard and basically kidnapped them on a mission to save Earth, as everyone at the time thought him to be a crackpot. the rocketship Hans Zarkov built was quite advanced for the 1940s, it sported an atomic rocket engine and it rained radioative fallout under its flight path to intercept the rogue planet, but he figured the cost was well worth it for saving Earth. The rocket ship entered the gigantic stargate and emerged into the Mongo star system, as it approached the planet Mongo itself, his ship was shot down by drone fighters and crashed into one of Mongo.s many oceans, there to be picked up by some Gilmen who also have captured various monachs of different realms on Mongo including Prince Barin and Thun, king of the lion-men, all entirely by coincidence.
#17 space_cadet Oct 26, 2009 11:29:56	This leads to another topic, that of where did the inhabitants of the planet Mongo originally arrive from? Some of them are obviously human, others appear to be of human stock modified to inhabit various environments. The answer is simple, most of them arrived through another stargate, humans from the distant future traveled through this gate and arrived on Mongol, in this system they discovered many other stargates, each one of them leading to the system of an inhabited planet. By examining the cosmic background radiation, they've surmised than Mongo resides in a system that is almost 5 billion years in the past. Mongo is an artificial planet, constructed by some now vanished alien race of unknown origin, and they have also built a number of stargates leading to various star systems in their relative future. Ming, sometime later took control of some of this alien apparatus and has ruled Mongo tyrannically ever since. At the time the campaign begins, Ming maneuvered one of the stargates into a near collision with Earth in the 1940s, he reasons that as this version of Earth is at war, and the tidal forces this massive stargate will further sow chaos such that no effective resistance could be mustered to oppose his invading robot army when he takes over yet another planet to add to his Empire.
#18 space_cadet Oct 28, 2009 9:25:22	I think you're confusing and conflating a lot of different things, there. I don't know how deliberately using xenophobia somehow excuses it, and it's utter nonsense to claim that acknowledging systematic racism is somehow anti-Western. I'm anti-racism. It just so happens that colonialism is an inherently racist practise, and the West undertook a lot of colonialism. Yes, other cultures did it too (which is the next thing you'll say), but so what? Two wrongs (many wrongs, in this case) do not make a right. I'm not sure what "other direction" you're talking about either. The "other direction" away racism is not racism. To believe that anything even remotely like the systemic racism that people of colour in the West have had to face is now bearing down on Caucasians is to delude yourself. Anybody who makes that claim is either ignorant or trying to recruit you. And by the way, the very same wiki entry you read from states that Flash went to Yale, which is in America, so your assumption that he was originally British is very odd indeed.  Having a White villain next to a vicious stereotype of an Asian doesn't cancel for the racism. Firstly, you're assuming that the one just negates the other, and secondly, you're ignoring the virulent and powerful anti-German prejudice the Anglophone world has carried since WWI and WWII. There were internment camps for American and Canadian Germans during WWII, for example, just as there were for Japanese. "White" and "other" are not the only two races, and people of the same racial groups (Caucasians, Asians, Africans, etc.) are perfectly capable of forming racial prejudices against each other. Just ask the Koreans, the Nigerians, or the Irish. You seem to assume, furthermore, that writers and performers who alter the gender or race of characters do so only out of guilt or pressure from... somebody? I'm not sure who. I'm not sure you're sure who. Ronald D. Moore made his Starbuck a woman because it was fun to play that character with the gender flipped and because, if his podcasts are to be believed, he's a firm believer in gender equality. Voluntarily, I might add, and based on a lifetime of reading and observing humanity and deciding that we'd be better off as an egalitarian society. Can I say, also, that the only times I've ever heard "political correctness" invoked is as a strawman. It doesn't have a character of its own; it's just "bad thing" that people can denigrate in absentia. So taking a stand against this thing that has no definition is not brave or admirable. It's actually quite cowardly to puff your chest up in front of something that can't possibly hurt you. Why "political correctness" is the Newspeak that George Orwell warned us about in his Novel 1984, basically someone wants to control the language to achieve some political end. People do things and say things to avoid offending a particular minority group, one example of which was the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to President Barack Obama for ... breathing and having a pulse I guess. As far as I can tell there was nothing he actually did to earn that award, he received it for what he was rather than for what he did, that is political correctness at its worst. You also keep invoking the "authentic" original, as if that had inherent superiority to whatever reinterpretations came after, but the verion of Flash Gordon that you favour, this cartoon from the 70s, is just such an interpretation, and you seem to like some of those changes (making him a football player, for example). So it's really not that you want to stick to the "authentic" or "original" version of the character out of some sense of loyalty. I would venture to say that it's more likely that you simply are picking a version with which you're comfortable, one that you (spuriously) identify as more American, and one that includes a detectable level of background racism that doesn't happen to bother you. The athletic background of Flash is just part of his background that is soon forgotten when the story starts, its not that Flash throws any football passes while he is on the planet Mongo, besides football is a more popular sport than Polo, which is rather English and somewhat elitist, for to play polo you need a horse. Most people can't afford to keep horses for the purpose of playing polo, a football game is easier to arrange as you need only shoulder pads, a helmet, a football and a place to play the game with your buddies. It's really telling that you want to sweep all that very real, socially-powerful racist imagery under a rug and claim "oh well, that's just the way it is," but you then turn around and express a desire to see the science rendered "accurately." Apparently, constructing and perpetuating racist stereotypes is less important than reasoning out how a 3/4's water planet's gravity would affect a planet without water, as if that were actually pertinant to a high-concept space-opera story where bipeds with wings can fly (look it up). Your sense of priorities is kind of baffling, to be frank, and seems more like a distraction ploy than anything else.  I really don't know how racist the original comic book or TV show was, my first exposure to it was that 1978 cartoon when I was eleven years old. I didn't live in the 1930s, I don't know much of what social prejudices existed back then, and it really is just so much history that is of little relevance to me today, and few people alive today remember the 1930s, my grandmother does and she's 93 years old. From what I gather from the history I've read of that period, asians didn't really have it so bad in America, perhaps they were made fun of in some comic strips and movie serials at the time, maybe their feelings were hurt a bit by the comical portrayals, but that was the extent of it really, other people in other countries suffered a lot worse than they did, particularly Jew in Germany. Asians to most American people were from some far away land with some strange customs. I'm sure the writers of Flash Gordon didn't really hate asians, they didn't want to go out and kill them as Nazis did with Jews. I think prejudices against Japanese Americans were inflamed by their relative's brutality in their treatment of American POWs they captured in the Phillipeans, and the Bataan Death March certainly didn't help improve relations at the time, but what does that really say? That Americans are human beings who learn from their experiences, a lot of returning GIs from World War II had a lot of bad experiences with the Japanese, and they brought those prejudices home with them when they returned from the War, why should that suprise you. Did you expect Americans to have been better that everyone else in the World? I'm sorry to have dragged the thread even further off-topic. I really didn't mean to. I made an off-hand comment about the blatantly obvious racist imagery in Flash Gordon and you ran with it, so this is me responding to you. I'm done now. If you want the last word, go right ahead: repeat a few more tired old right-wing talk-radio sound bites (whether you realise that's where you got them or now) and you can get back to setting up your game world. Well you did drag it on, I did not intend to get into a political discussion with you, I found it necessary to defend my viewpoints in this post, and I have done so. I admit my view points are right of center, but it is my right to have viewpoints that differ from yours, having the freedom of speech is an important one, and total conformity to the "politically correct" opinion is not to be desired as it squelches such discussions, you just have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you, and tolerate such dissent as I have tollerated yours, as we can move on from there.
#19 space_cadet Oct 28, 2009 10:26:51	Here's my latest character post. Flash Gordon Class: Strong Hero 3/Fast Hero 3/Charismatic Hero 3 Character Level: 9 Starting Occupation: Athlete Age: 24 Gender: male Height: 6 feet, 3 inches Weight: 200 pounds Eyes: Blue Hair: blonde Skin: light caucasian Abilities STR 18 Strength Mod +4 DEX 16 Dexterity Mod +3 CON 12 Constitution Mod +1 INT 13 Intelligence Mod +1 WIS 13 Wisdom Mod +1 CHA 20 Charisma Mod +5 Hit Dice 6d8+3d6+9