http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1130900
and
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1075786
I know I am very excited about these products. Hopefully some others on these boards will be too!
50BMG 2d12
If a "Modern II" gets put out with that GSL and doesnt fix the BMG, does that mean nobody is allowed to fix it?
50BMG 2d12
If a "Modern II" gets put out with that GSL and doesnt fix the BMG, does that mean nobody is allowed to fix it?
Yup :P
As I neither play Urban Arcana nor Cyberscape, I have no interest in either product.
we cant change that No Use skill to a Has Uses Skill ?
So, if they put out GSL core with Knowlege Tactics as a skill with no uses,
we cant change that No Use skill to a Has Uses Skill ?
At least not in any published products, no.
As I neither play Urban Arcana nor Cyberscape, I have no interest in either product.
I imagine that the products could easily be modified to run a post-apocalypse style setting as well. Or, a straight/normal modern style setting (without future or arcana elements). But, it would of course require modification.
"Hmm, this will be interesting to see how the limits of the "no redefining of core items" clause of the GSL are worked around."
50BMG 2d12
If a "Modern II" gets put out with that GSL and doesnt fix the BMG, does that mean nobody is allowed to fix it?
Mathematically, I long ago proved that the 2d12 BMG stats work "semi-realistically" in comparison to all other gun stats. :P The ratio of FTLB growth to die growth works. In fact, the "modified weapon damage" table floating around the boards is the one that doesn't fit with the ratio of FTLB growth in any explainable or logical mathematical progression.
But, aside from beating an old horse, you are sort of correct. What it means is that 3rd party published products can not change the core mechanics of the game. Of course, players can house rule whatever they want (as we always could).
It should also be noted that in 4e, the large die weapons are a good deal more effective then they were in 3e. Nobody knows what these weapons would finally look like in a 4e version of Modern, but I am pretty sure that Dia Ex Machina has not chosen to go with any damage dice that are quite so potent. In fact, I am pretty sure the weapon is a 1d12 weapon. With 4e mechanics, that can still lead to a 5+ d12 weapon attack when using some weapon powers, and at least a 2d12 weapon damage with your at-will powers at higher levels.
But yeah, lets not dwell on that one problem of Modern,
lets talk about the 3rd party stuff and the GSL (Game Stuff Limits?)
Your math is flawed in the fact that there is much more to ballistics than FTLB.
And yet there is little better, and nothing at all, to suggest that the "modified gun damage table" is in fact any better then the RAW. At least the RAW is based on some sort of real math... at least that is my point of view. ;) Each their own though. I understand the purpose of the modified gun damage... I just didn't agree with it. The only damage I felt needed to be adjusted was shotgun damage, and I just felt that shotguns should have had their damage counted in a larger number of smaller dice. For example, 4d4 instead of 2d8, 5d4 instead of 2d10.
Actually, I was going to reiterate how CD fit a logarithmic scale of damage to a very very linear metric of HitPoints.
No, no, no. I fit a logarithmic scale to a very, very ABSTRACT measurement of hit points. The thing with hit points is that sometimes they scale linearly, sometimes they scale logarithmically. For example, vehicle hit points and gun damage scale logarithmically, and yet heroes gain extra hit points per level in a linear mannor. I suppose that is just the nature of the (necessity of abstract game design) beast...
But yes, the new GSL does force 3rd party products to conform the the existing core mechanics. Pretty much, 3rd parties can produce new classes, but not new templates for level gain and class organization, new attacks, but not new defense scores. At least, that is how I understand it.
And all of this is really off-topic. The point was, for those (like me) who crave it, there will be some 3rd party 4e Modern support.
Yup :P
As I neither play Urban Arcana nor Cyberscape, I have no interest in either product.
But you are posting in the D20 Modern forum...so tell me what are you interested in? I may be able to help...
But you are posting in the D20 Modern forum...
There is FAR more to d20 Modern than just Urban Arcana (or as I like to call it, "D&D with guns and cars") and Cyberscape. Though I am a fan of cyberpunk. :P
As for what I like, it depends on my mood. Recently, well, I hate to use the word "realistic" because all the false connotations people like to attach to it, so I guess I'll say "Grim and Gritty" instead. My taste tends to lean more toward Tom Clancy than Die Hard in the spectrum.
Mainly what turns me off is the handholding vibe that I get from the mechanics every time my group plays a 4e game or I read a 4e book, and I just have a hard time envisioning the powers system for Modern being anything but off-the-wall stupid. This is all just me. :P
There is FAR more to d20 Modern than just Urban Arcana (or as I like to call it, "D&D with guns and cars") and Cyberscape. Though I am a fan of cyberpunk. :P
As for what I like, it depends on my mood. Recently, well, I hate to use the word "realistic" because all the false connotations people like to attach to it, so I guess I'll say "Grim and Gritty" instead. My taste tends to lean more toward Tom Clancy than Die Hard in the spectrum.
Mainly what turns me off is the handholding vibe that I get from the mechanics every time my group plays a 4e game or I read a 4e book, and I just have a hard time envisioning the powers system for Modern being anything but off-the-wall stupid. This is all just me. :P
Okay...good to know...Now, I know what to work on...
Let me address a few points:
A) Amethyst proposes a world which is intended to be our "actual" world. It forces us to acknowledge the implausibilities of a fantasy world and present one that could actually occur IF our dreams of it were realized. It’s a fantasy world where you would actually find old Tolkien and Lewis books on a shelf. Considering a human empire in Amethyst runs a elf sex-trade operation, I am pretty sure we got "grim" nailed.
B) NeuroSpasta is a cyberpunk setting but when you strip the layers off, you'll discover that you don't need cybernetics when you level, you can keep the weapons you started off with at level 1 throughout your entire character's life, and the race choices are quite optional. We hope to keep the game realistic at least until epic. You set the level of absurdity as you see fit as a DM.
C) I firmly believe the rules in Amethyst (coming in April) and in NeuroSpasta (coming after) can easily be used in most modern settings including any number of spy and military thrillers. When I was proposing NeuroSpasta, I compared it as the following: One part "Ghost in the Shell", one part "24", one part "The Interpreter" (just Wiki it) with a dash of "Bourne." It’s my goal to recreate what I love about all of these franchises in something I think still speaks as being original.
Just release Amethyst for 4e and port it to 3rd and to Modern as well.
A couple tweaks of how Amethyst deals with Unarmed and MAS, not a real stretch or a lot of work to get a d20Modern port off the version for 3rd D&D.
However, if Amethyst is really dependant on mook noobs having crazy powers and a gajillion HP for 4e Rollplaying(Fightclub).... then I'm not interested.
A good campaign setting can run with slight adjustment in almost any rpg rules. Heck, I can even port cyberpunk stuff to LEG: PCCS/Rhand if need be
As for what I like...[is]..."Grim and Gritty" ...My taste tends to lean more toward Tom Clancy than Die Hard in the spectrum.
I can relate. Many of my rules were designed to be "semi-realistic." Catching a "grim and gritty," a "dangerous and lethal" feeling is important to me. When my character gets hit I want them to feel hurt. When my players get hit I want them to feel hurt. I agree, the base 4e rules are not very grim or gritty. That being said, neither were the base 3e rules (especially 3e D&D). Now, when 4e goes Modern it will need some sort of rule (the equivalent of 3e d20 Modern's massive damage threshold) that makes the game feel more gritty then standard 4e D&D. Something like Saga's condition track would work great.
I don't know if Dias Ex Machina is allowed to create such a rule (because I don't know if creating it steps on the toes of the GSL). But, I certainly think it would be easier to write such a rule and successfully create a grim and gritty feeling in 4e. I mean, for all of d20 Modern's attempt to cater to the grim and gritty feeling, it largely failed. Saga does a much better job of it then d20 Modern ever did! Without house rules it was incredibly easy to make a character that would never succumb to massive damage, even in the most unbelievable situations. Standard d20 Modern was more Die-Hard then Tom Clancy.
On the other hand, turning 4e into a Tom Clancy game really doesn't seem that hard to do. I mean, in my 4e D&D games I already created a few rules to simulate this. A character only regains a number of healing surges per extended rest equal to 2 + their constitution modifier, and characters suffer a -1 to all d20 rolls (and maybe defenses, though I have not decided on that yet) when they are bloodied. I don't know if its enough for the sort of grim and gritty modern game I like, but I think its more then standard d20 Modern succeeded at doing as per RAW. I mean, getting hurt so bad over a course of a couple days that you just can't heal at all no matter what? That is pretty grim and gritty.
Mainly what turns me off is the handholding vibe that I get from the mechanics every time my group plays a 4e game or I read a 4e book, and I just have a hard time envisioning the powers system for Modern being anything but off-the-wall stupid. This is all just me. :P
I don't see any handholding in 4e. Maybe its because of my healing surge regeneration and bloodied house rules or something, I don't know. Certainly combat seems less swingy (accidental instant deaths based only on luck), but other then being less swingy I actually feel that they often hold a players hand less then the 3e rules did. Combat is won or lost based on a players decisions during combat. Make bad decisions and your character will get hurt, bad... I also don't see why "powers" have to be off-the-wall silly. I mean, martial weapon powers don't even start getting the hint of silly until epic levels. If you don't want to run an "epic modern" game, stop the game at level 20, just like we did with regular d20 Modern! And even many of the epic powers are not that silly. I mean, "your enemy strikes, and as you defend yourself with one blade, you [attempt to] drive the other deep into his gullet;" is that really so unbelievable? Or, lets look at a level 29 ranger daily: "You follow every strike with a backhanded swipe that breaks through your enemy's defenses." I don't really see anything unbelievable here...
Perhaps these new 3rd party settings of Amethyst & Neuropasta should follow the lead of videogames: Port it to other platforms.
Just release Amethyst for 4e and port it to 3rd and to Modern as well.
A couple tweaks of how Amethyst deals with Unarmed and MAS, not a real stretch or a lot of work to get a d20Modern port off the version for 3rd D&D.
Amethyst already existed in a 3e/d20 Modernesque format. That was the earlier edition of the game.
However, if Amethyst is really dependant on mook noobs having crazy powers and a gajillion HP for 4e Rollplaying(Fightclub).... then I'm not interested.
You know backstabbist, saying stuff like that without understanding how the rules work as a whole is a little closed minded and silly. As I pointed out with my above post, there is really nothing silly about the vast majority of 4e martial powers. A couple of the epic ones are a little over the top (though not more over the top then anything seen in Lord of the Rings for example), but those are EPIC powers. There is no need to take a Modern game into the realm of demi-gods. A DM would be quite in his right to stop the game at 20th level. I am hard pressed to find any silly fluff (or mechanics) for martial powers before epic level. And players in 4e hardly gain a "gajillion HP." Its true that they start out with more HP, but not by a whole lot. 3e/d20 Modern gains you max HP for your die at first level + your con modifier. 4e grants you pretty much the same amount of HP for your first level, except instead of adding your con modifier you add your constitution score. There is nothing wrong with that. Fact is, the 1st level of Modern and 3e games was a little too swingy. One shot kills or roe-sham-boe encounters are not fun. But, mobs got an increase in power as well. And, after this first level players don't even get to add their constitution modifier to their hit points gained per level (which are about the same amount as those gained in 3e and d20 Modern otherwise). So, players actually have less hit points then they did in 3e... Now, certainly players get healing surges (which heals 1/4th the character hit points with a use), but a character 1) has a finite amount of healing surges and 2) can only use one healing surge in a fight without some sort of magical healer. This is actually more gritty then 3e/Modern. In 3e/Modern someone with magical healing could heal you as much as they liked. Magic items of healing coupled with a healer could potentially heal you an infinite number of times. Now there is a set amount. If you take too much healing, that's it, you are done. No more healing for you. And, if you are playing without such healers, then its one healing surge per fight. Hardly unrealistic.
Seems to me, backstabbist, that you ate up a bunch of anti-4e propaganda (which unfortunately found place to roost here on the Modern boards) without actually looking at the 4e rules, or considering how these rules might be adapted for use in a Modern game. Less total hit points at higher level (because no constitution modifier as a bonus to hit points per level) and your constitution (modifier) instead granting you a fixed number of times in which one can be healed per fight? I mean, certainly, some sort of cap on the amount of healing surges regained with an extended rest needs to be implemented, but there is a lot of potential to use those mechanics to form an incredibly grim and gritty ruleset.
And 4e "rollplaying"? Fightclub? I agree that more non-combat utility powers need to be added to the game for some classes. Classes like the fighter really get the short end of the stick. But some other classes get very many such powers! Rogue, wizard, I'm looking at you. And, this is still better then what 3e D&D offered in this area of the game. I mean, lets face it, its not like the fighter class of 3e got very many non-combat abilities! What is interesting to notice is that 4e still managed to include a lot more about non-combat role-playing and encounters then 3e ever did. Experience gained for out of combat activities? Check in 4e, no check as per RAW in 3e. Rules for non-combat encounter skill challenges (which largly require heavy role-playing to be of any fun)? Check in 4e, no check as per RAW in 3e. Hell, skills are the primary mechanic used outside of combat, and classes like the fighter (which had no non-combat capability to speak of in 3e) are given quite a bit more use out of these mechanics then they ever were in the past! That intimidating fighter who scares people into telling him what he wants to know, and who uses his posture to avoid as many fights as possible, but also happens to be fairly athletic, is far easier to play in 4e then it was in 3e. Certainly a Modern version of 4e will require some work, but so did the Modern version of 3e... and lets be fair, most of us had to put some work into that to make that meet our expectations and requirements. This off hand waving away of 4e as nothing more then a fight engine is really closed minded and silly.
Also concerning powers, I should clarify that when I say "I can't see Modern powers being anything more than off-the-wall silly" I mean "I can't see powers that use guns being anything more than off-the-wall silly." :P
I mean, think REALLY hard about it, excluding BS like making it so I can only somehow doubletap or use the 3-round-burst setting on my AR once per encounter, how many not-"swing your arm as you shoot to CURVE THE BULLET!" gun powers can you think of? Even if you stretched the boundaries to include the stupid, can you think of enough for more than ONE class? My biggest fear is there only being one real "shooter" class, and everyone else being stuck with a few subpar shooting powers, if at all, and melee ONCE AGAIN dominating the game.
Ok, you've convinced me to change my stance from "not interested" to "we'll see." :P Which is as high as I get for any product until I see reviews and previews.
Also concerning powers, I should clarify that when I say "I can't see Modern powers being anything more than off-the-wall silly" I mean "I can't see powers that use guns being anything more than off-the-wall silly." :P
I mean, think REALLY hard about it, excluding BS like making it so I can only somehow doubletap or use the 3-round-burst setting on my AR once per encounter, how many not-"swing your arm as you shoot to CURVE THE BULLET!" gun powers can you think of? Even if you stretched the boundaries to include the stupid, can you think of enough for more than ONE class? My biggest fear is there only being one real "shooter" class, and everyone else being stuck with a few subpar shooting powers, if at all, and melee ONCE AGAIN dominating the game.
I think that burst and double tap would probably be handled via at-will powers. "Better versions" of burst or double tap would be handled via encounter or per day abilities. And yes, I can think of lots of powers that do not employ "curve the bullet" silliness. I am not a fan of Wanted. I did not like the action style. It is not what I am looking for in my games. But, there are plenty of "powers" or "exploits" I have seen performed in action movies that did not employ any of this silliness. Also, who said that one class would or should receive all the ballistic weapon powers? Different types of weapon powers should be divided among different classes. For example, I know in Amathyst there will be four techan classes. One class gains handgun gunslinger and sniper style powers. Another class gains heavy weapons cover fire and area fire weapon powers. Another class is more of a tactical leader (who, I am guessing, makes an attack with his weapon while simultaneously allowing a team-mate to perform some sort of action, perhaps an attack, of their own). There is plenty of room for a multitude of interesting weapon powers for each class. Nowhere do I see a need for Wanted reality bending style action.
there is really nothing silly about the vast majority of 4e martial powers.
if a game has Healing Surge, I'm not playing it.
if a game has Healing Surge, I'm not playing it.
To be fair, D20Modern's Tough Hero has the "Second Wind" ability, which is very similar to 4e's healing surges.
Do you not allow that talent in your games?
I'm not a fan of 4e, but I'd like to see your argument for Tough Hero when you bash 4e for using a similar mechanic.
if a game has Healing Surge, I'm not playing it.
That is totally ridiculous and arbitrary backstabbist, and you know it. May as well say "if a game has Hit Points, I'm not playing it." Or, "if a game uses the word 'and' anywhere it its rules, I'm not playing it." Hell, why stop there... "if a game is printed on paper, I'm not playing it."
As Master_Vega pointed out, d20 Modern had Second Wind in its rules. Second Wind is no different then Healing Surge. What is more, as I pointed out in one of my above posts, using Healing Surges to put a limit on the number of times a character can be healed during any given fight and day actually results in a more gritty, not less gritty, game. The use of healing surges is no more or less abstract then hit points already are, and it in no way, shape, or form, makes the rules any more or less believable.
To randomly pick a baseless hate on for healing surges, or any other random and arbitrary mechanic, doesn't indicate that the system does not show promise for a particular style of gaming, it indicates that you have a bit of a conceptual block surrounding the mechanic in question and have arbitrarily decided to refuse to give the mechanics a fair chance. Fair enough. You don't have to play the new system. Its a shame, but that is what it is. But lets call a spade a spade. The issue is not with the 4e system in this case. Moreover, nothing about the issue indicates that "4e is really dependant on mook noobs having crazy powers and a gajillion HP" or that "4e [is about] Rollplaying(Fightclub)....."
If you define a "a good campaign setting," or rather if you define the mechanics of a setting as good mechanics, as a set of mechanics that "can run with slight adjustment in almost any rpg" setting, then 4e meets the bill. It will require some adjustment. Some rules will have to be tweaked. Because of the way the GSL is written some house rules for more gritty mechanics might be required. But that is life, and its no different then the situation that we all faced with d20 Modern. d20 Modern is far from a perfect game. Hell, its not even the best d20 game anymore. It used to be, but Saga and 4e have, in my opinion, replaced it (depending on what sort of game and what sort of mechanical representation you prefer). Without house rules many types of Modern games don't run well with Modern mechanics.
In the end, there are perfectly good and legitimate reasons to choose to go with a more Saga/Modernesque system. If you prefer simulationist rules to narrativist rules no 4e based system game is likely to satisfy you. But the problem is not that 4e is not a good game system, or that its not a great role-playing system, or that 4e is not designed for out of combat role-playing. The problem is that you prefer simulationist rules and have conceptual blocks that stop you from accepting narrativist strategies. That is fair. We each have our own preferences. Some people love blue cheese. I can't go near the stuff without gagging. But the comments you originally made about 4e are a little close minded and silly (if you ask me). They are fairly empirical when your opinion is anything but...
Basically, what I am saying is, to those who hear "4e" and jump to say "no way am I interested, that is going to suck," without even giving the product a look, I urge you to look at what SerenaDawn and his peers at Dias Ex Machina have done with the setting. They have managed to do some pretty amazing stuff in regards to transforming 4e into a modern game within the space allowed them through the GSL. Maybe you will love it. Maybe you would prefer something more like Saga. But, does giving it a look and an honest chance, while avoiding attempts to colonize the tastes of others through empirical statement, really hurt our hobby? If anything, perhaps it might enrich your gaming experience. Perhaps it will open your eyes to a new possibility on the horizon. Or, perhaps, it will just give you some ideas that you can houserule into your own game. I mean, even it you still hate it after giving it an honest chance, at least then you can claim to dislike the game in an honest and not close minded manner!
So Sam I Am, will you try the green eggs and ham?
How does that have any bearing on what you play?
CD, you are coming across in your post as a little defensive & confrontational over what rules you like.... why, since you can play whatever rules you want regardless of how I feel about them.
Heres something I dont like:
Even without magical healing characters can spend any number of their remaining Healing Surges between encounters. Consider that a level 1 Fighter with a 13 Constitution has 28 Hit Points and 10 Healing Surges, effectively totaling up to 98 total Hit Points of damage he can sustain over a prolonged day of adventuring. Additionally, like adventurers in some computer role-playing games, every time a character gets a full night's rest, he heals from all wounds.
Characters which are at negative Hit Points and unconscious can't typically spend their healing surges of their own accord. However, the party healers can intervene to make sure those Healing Surges come into play. Magical healing actually works much better on a character with negative Hit Points than on a character with positive Hit Points. Consider a character with 28 Hit Points at maximum and a Healing Surge Value of 7. If the character is at 1 Hit Point and spends a Healing Surge he goes to 8. If he is at -13 (one point away from death, based on his maximum) then any healing resets his Hit Points to 0 and goes up from there (to 7 in this example). So, this example character heals only 7 points if conscious but can heal up to 20 points if on the very edge of death. This produces a bizarre yo-yo effect where a character is in danger of dying and suddenly stands up and is fighting a second later. Even characters untrained in the Healing skill can make a fairly easy skill check to allow another character to spend a Healing Surge.
If that stuff is how you want to play, ok.. nuthin wrong with that.
If that is how I DONT want to play, ok.. nuthin wrong with that either...right?
But this thread is about Amethyst & Neuropasta, right?
not the pros & cons of 4e
backstabbist: The GSL specifically says we can't release Amethyst and NeuroSpasta for any other system. Amethyst was available since April as a 3.5/D20 Modern Campaign setting (got some great reviews to). It went off the shelves on January 1st (psst, a local retailer still has copies for sale). We had to do so to be compliant with the GSL. NeuroSpasta never existed as another system (though it is based partially on an old Cyberpunk 2020 Campaign I did called Necropolis) but the current wording states not only can I not release another rule set, I can't even do that after 4.0 has gone (we assume alterations to the GSL in the future to ratify this but we honestly don't care). Would we if we could? Sure...anything to make you guys and gals happy, but that matter is out of our hands.
Cyber-Dave: Although we can add functions to rules, we can't alter their basic definition. Because we want NeuroSpasta and Amethyst to be 100% compatible with other GSL compliant products, we can't mess much with the rules. THAT being said, we tried to portray higher level powers as not being superpowers but more...I guess the words "cinematic" may seem overly-used nowadays. I mean, characters don't turn into Wesley Gibson from Wanted or Neo from the Matrix...maybe just into Chow Yun Fat's characters from John Woo films. There will always be power curves and questions asked with high level characters. I mean, people will be hit multiple times and still walk without a limp. My old Ghost in the Shell D20 game attempted to solve this by increasing AC across the board, and dropping everyone's hit points. If we are able to do something different as a set of optional rules, we'll try. We're in the early stages here. Good questions.
backstabbist: I am not about censoring any opinions here. I respect your thoughts and invite them here and anywhere else. 4ED got a lot of heat and I will defend it...especially since I was a huge critic of the system until I started playing it. I can see a lot of people's issues with it...but I feel 3.5, at higher levels, was far more broken.
narukagami: I suggest checking out the Amethyst development log, or the Amethyst updates posted on Gleemax's GSL forum (I still thank them for putting up with me). We avoid stupid crap like curving bullets and the like. Looking over our high level powers, we do have a few sniper abilities that allow you to ignore several squares of blocking terrain but I never thought of this as bullet curving as bullet penetration. We also have a magic bullet ability as well, but this is one of those bizarre accidents like what happened on the grassy null (, right). We have a few abilities based that allow a character to slide on his back and fire up at enemies but this is more cinematic than unbelievable. No techans walk on walls or curve bullets or freeze time. Looking over our epic abilities, the most flamboyant attack I can see is a Stalker ability that fires at all close targets, pushing them back, and following with another attack, which knocks them prone. There is another that is a sniper ability that does little damage but cripples the target and makes it helpless for a follow-up sniper attack. Stuff like that...
Cyber-Dave: Yes. Double Tap is at-will power most classes have as an option. Burst Fire is not. It is a feat that can be applies to powers. Hope that helps. And you are partially right. We have four classes with two builds with each. Again, check out the Amethyst post for details as I don't want to waist people's time here with it.
backstabbist: I would rather have healing surges than large hit points. It forces more strategy. And I never thought surges were magical powers where your wounds closed. I think we approach our game by saying rules can be interpreted in different ways and maybe you are not really struck with a bullet until you are bloodied or suffer a critical hit. There is a difference between hard-rules and the story you tell. The great thing about 4ED combat is that you can divide them really well.
backstabbist and cyber-dave: Let’s be civil. Anger does no one any good, especially my potential sales. CD, I know you mean well and I appreciate it. Its good having support from the fans. Backstabbist, you're right, I can't stand some of the ways some players push for unrealism out a system. With being able to "add definitions to rules without altering their end result" we hope to address this issue and make combat more realistic with NeuroSpasta. One of the points we are making is that we creating "episodes" rather than "dungeons" and regardless how many "days" pass in the episode, it is still counted as one day for the purposes of powers and healing surges. You see, it’s very careful wording like that I think we can get away with. It is also a rule you can totally ignore if you like.
Phewww... I'm hungry.
CD, you are coming across in your post as a little defensive & confrontational over what rules you like.... why, since you can play whatever rules you want regardless of how I feel about them.
I was being somewhat defensive, you are right. I certainly didn't want you to take any offense to anything I said, but I suppose I took a little offense to the following statement:
However, if Amethyst is really dependant on mook noobs having crazy powers and a gajillion HP for 4e Rollplaying(Fightclub).... then I'm not interested.
Its fine for everyone to have their preferences, but I took that line as being an empirical attempt to colonize my tastes... or in other words, as confrontational. I mean, its a blatant and baseless insult against the very edition I professed to enjoy with the topic header of this very thread! That's not very nice...
Anyways, I have always respected your input, and we have always got on well in the past, so I suppose we can just drop it or something.
I have some comments I would not mind posting on that example of what you don't like, and why the "healing surge" mechanic narratively works well due to the abstract nature of hit points and the cinematics of action films. There is even a video clip I have to back up my point... but I am not sure if you want to hear it. If you do, let me know.
And while this thread is about Amethyst & Neuropasta, it should be noted that both are going to be released as 4e games. Thus, in some regard, this thread does touch on the subject of the pros and cons of 4e in regards to d20 Modern gaming. Really, I just made this thread so that those who think 4e could be used to run great Modern games that there is a company out there that will be releasing exactly that, d20 Modern style 4e games.
And while this thread is about Amethyst & Neuropasta, it should be noted that both are going to be released as 4e games. Thus, in some regard, this thread does touch on the subject of the pros and cons of 4e in regards to d20 Modern gaming. Really, I just made this thread so that those who think 4e could be used to run great Modern games that there is a company out there that will be releasing exactly that, d20 Modern style 4e games.
...and we haven't even told you what the third one is...