Generic Firearms (d20 Modern) PEACH - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Generic Firearms (d20 Modern) PEACH

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
TheRealOrion
Sep 10, 2008 21:46:16 I've been developing this elsewhere for a while now, a system that has generic guns instead of brand-names. Now, you can buy a "heavy revolver" and then say it's a Magnum, or a Colt Python, or whatever you like.

I've been helped in this effort greatly by both Tema and Backstabbist:

Generic Firearms for d20 Modern
#2
tema69
Sep 11, 2008 2:59:13 Lookin' good. Glad to see the final product.
#3
AnimeSniper
Sep 11, 2008 12:03:48 Looks really good!
#4
akodo
Sep 13, 2008 20:31:27 I like the concept

some suggested changes:

You have derringer, but then list a non-derringer to represent it.
As you can get a derringer that can fire 45acp, I think you should treat the derringer like a class of gun, just like you do autoloaders and revolvers
derringer (light) derringer (medium) and derringer (heavy)

machine pistols, I'd place the range at equal to their standard counterpart. Really, a glock 18 or Beretta 93r isn't going to shoot any further than the glock 19 or beretta 92. Also, don't go from light to heavy, go from light to medium. I'd also introduce heavy machine pistol, ala the Mac-10 with damage the same as the heavy autoloader and 30 round box mag. It's a fine line between machinepistol and SMG, I know, but if the scorpion is a machinepistol then the mac10 definately fits, as would the styr TMP.

Further, for heavy autoloader, toss out the refrence to desert eagle. If anything the deagle and say a 454 casull revolver or something similar should be classed as an 'extra heavy' Stick with heavy representing a 45acp or 10mm or 45 super and equvialent semiauto.

Box ammo size, for autoloaders, put light and heavy at 8, medium at 15
Ranges, for revolvers up the range by 5, generally revolvers have better sights and better triggers even in DA mode, if you thumb back the hammer, even moreso. It also gives people a reason to pick them...slight range increase may come in handy.

I'd redo Revolver, light to represent a snubnose 38 or something, i;'d go
Revolver, Light (e.g., smith and wesson cheif's special) 2d6 20 ft. S 5 cyl. I'd stick at range 20 for this one. Maybe call it Revolver, Snubnose

If you want to introduce a .22 revolver I'd call it Revolver,Plinker (Kit gun) or revolver, target (kit gun) at 2d4 damage with range equal to the medium revolver

rifles
I'd never describe a light rifle as a remington 700, those things can be chambered in anything from 223 to 416 rigby

For the light rifle example I'd pick Winchester model 94 in 30-30, or simply call it a "30-30 lever action" the damage fits much better. Of course it would be used for anything from an SKS to a bolt action 223 coyote rifle, etc, but that's all close enough and a lever action in 30-30 is going to be the most prevelant. PDC 12, and move the weight to 6lbs

For medium, that would be a better place for the name remington 700 although giving the example of "30-06 deer rifle" would be fine too. And yes, about half of them have detachable box magazines now. I'd definately drop the PDC down to 12 or so, also use 8-10lbs

If you want a sniper type rifle call it a Rifle, Precision (M24 sniper rifle) same 2d10 damage as medium, range 120, PDC 20-21 or so

I'd add in heavy rifle but I am thinking more of somethign like a grizzly bear hunter or lion hunter would carry.
Rifle, Heavy (dangerous game rifle) 2d12 80 ft. S 4 box L2 large 10 lb. PDC 20

also add
Battle Rifle (e.g., FN-FAL, M-14) 2d10 80 ft. S, A 20 box L1 large 12 lb.

I'd pull the 50BMG both in rifle form and in heavy machinegun form from the game, or, use the term Rifle, Antimaterial (Barret M82) and stick it under exotic, with the same penalties for firing it without the use of a bipod as you do with the MGs listed there. I'd also increase the damage 2d20 sounds good based on your other stuff

The shotgun damage needs to be brought up to at least equal to the medium rifle, if not superior to it. I'd definately go with 2d10, but 4d4 or 5d4 can be a lot of fun. (I'd use 4d4 but allow the purchase of 5d4 ammo at the hinderance of reducing gun capacity by 1, minimum 2)

I'd remove Shotgun autoloader and replace it with two catagories
#1 Shotgun, combat and put ammo at 8 internal, that would cover anything from an Remington 870 police to a SPAS-12, there just aren't many box fed shotguns except for in video games.
#2 Shotgun, sporting put ammo at 5 internal, duplicating any standard duck shotgun, and increase the range to 40

Shotgun, heavy, also increase the damage, and go with 5 internal.

I don't think the light machinegun should be just large, it should also be huge, so firing it from anything but it's bipod should be giving -4

maybe even introduce bipod as an accessory, that can give any large weapon + something and can allow any huge weapon to be fired when prone with bipod extended (or kneeling with bipod on some sort of ledge or brace) to ignore the penalty for firing a too large of weapon.

Also, if you are keeping the Ma Duce heavy machinegun, i'd call it giant and introduce the tripod the only way to handle something that big shy of a pintel mount on a vehicle. tripod can be carried seperately but weighs 40 lbs, takes some time to mount the ma duce on the tripod, but when mounted, you can fire without penaty.

I'm not sure you want to get into buying extended magazines for anything, that ends up being more wrong than right. If anything, simply go with the note that a medium autopistol and medium machinepistol can purchase a 30 round magazine, and a heavy autopistol can upgrade to a 10 shot mag.

As far as the revolvers, no, you can't upgade to a 9 shot or 12 shot cylinder, especially not in medium or heavy.
I'd put in that a medium or heavy revolver can uprgrade to a 7 shot cylinder model for +1PDC, and that a target revolver could upgrade to 9 shot cylinder model for +1 PDC

Also for +1 PDC, upgrade the revolver to a 'moonclip model' with the rules of it can be considered a 7 box
#5
tema69
Sep 14, 2008 4:22:10
I don't think the light machinegun should be just large, it should also be huge, so firing it from anything but it's bipod should be giving -4

A 15 lb., 1 meter long M249 SAW is not Huge.
It is perfectly fireable from a standing or crouching position from what I've read.
#6
akodo
Sep 14, 2008 4:40:26 it all depends on how you define your terms. If you mean is it as big as a creature that is class huge, no.

Can you fire it from a standing position, yes, but it is fairly unweildy, you don't have good accuracy or control from that position, so the -4 for firing a weapon too large should definately apply. In the same manner people are physically capable of firing a barret M82 from a standing position...it's just not very accurate due to the imbalance of the weapon among many other factors.

It need not be size, but there should be SOME mechanism that makes it so a SAW is treated like a SAW and not a big assault rifle. There should be some mechanism to make the player desire to drop prone and deploy bipod if he wants to use the SAQ effectively.

Face it, if it could be carried easily and fired like an assault rifle, EVERYONE would be carrying one. However, compared to a fast handling light weight M-16, the SAW just can't be fired very well on the move or from standing or kneeling or basically any way other than with bipod deployed. Oh sure, you can definately send lead downrange in the general vicinity of the target, and standing with the SAW at your shoulder would work good enough against a target that popped up maybe half a block away (say 40-50 meters)
#7
tema69
Sep 14, 2008 5:55:02 I totally agree with you, but this does not make it Huge in d20 Modern terms.

In the variant system I'm working on, firing a Huge weapon as if it were a Large weapon (or firing a Large as a Medium) incurs a penalty to hit equal to it's weight in lb.
Perhaps I should make a second rule to that, for weapons like the M249, BAR, etc... that are fireable from standing position, but not as accurate - a penalty to hit equal to half its weight (in lb.).
#8
akodo
Sep 14, 2008 15:47:29 thing is, weight is just one factor. Rate of Fire is a big one. Often rate of fire is affected by the weight of the bolt, among many other factors, so light guns can often have higher rates of fire just for that alone, and for a 5.56NATO vs 7.62NATO weapon, the smaller, higher velocity cartridge that phyiscally weighs a lot less that is going to cause an increase in ROF as well.

Anyways, a light gun with high ROF is going to be damned uncontrollable too. In fact, weight adds to the controllability (especially if we are taking SMGs, but it would hold for hip-firing or shoulder-firing a true machinegun as well)

I think adding a trait like "supported weapon" might be the trick, so you can give a flat penalty of say -4 to any and all light and medium machineguns as well as anti-material rifles.

That still leaves the heavy machineguns like the Ma Duce in need of addressing. Maybe go "Carriage weapon" as these guns used to be situated on a pair of wheels for towing behind a jeep or pulled by a cart horse or pushed around by a few guys, and a tripod would simply be a modern, improved carrage that had no wheels...

But it would be great if there could be a term that would apply to say mortars as well, something where you basically carry the weapon in two halves, in case A, the M2 gun itself by one or more likely two guys and the 50 lb tripod seperately by an additional guy, or in case B, the mortar tube carried buy one guy, second guy brings the baseplate and leg, and the third guy hauls about 10 rounds of ammo around.

I am tempted to say 'crew served' as it isn't absolutely necessary to have a loader and guy linking belts for say an M60 (but it is nice) and I am also tempted to say 'support' but that is too close to 'supported'
#9
tema69
Sep 14, 2008 16:26:20 For automatic fire being uncontrollable, I refer to CyberDave's recoil rules. Nice, easy, and simple.
#10
akodo
Sep 16, 2008 16:07:23 I have not seem them, but even firing very short bursts or heck some of the SAWs with a semiauto switch, it still just doesn't work well, it would be like hanging a toaster oven off the end of your regular M-16.

But on the flip side, going prone and using a bipod gives you a LOT of improvements in controllability
#11
tema69
Sep 16, 2008 17:23:33 Basically, take a penalty to hit based on the weapon's size and damage. Your strength bonus might offset or reduce the penalty (a normal rifle is minus 3-4, manageable by most, but enough to give a slight penalty to hit).
#12
akodo
Sep 16, 2008 17:34:52 also, I was thinking, it would be easier to just dump the light and heavy machine pistols. Lumping the heavy machine pistols into the SMGs is just fine, and really is it worth having a light for just the scorpion? Not much else classifies.

Second, what I have always gone for is to use game reprucisions for carrying around big and obvious assault rifles and shotguns. Even a shotgun with a pistol grip in a trench coat is going to be screamingly obvious to anyone who isn't totally wrapped up in themselves. Now, I don't know how this would work in your world, but I have always gone for attempting to balance the hanguns the most.

I have always gone for a triangle approach, where each one has some good factors. You can see this in DnD 4th edition. You either get a +3 proficiency longsword that does 1d8 or you get a +2 battleaxe that does 1d10 and I am sure warhammer or some other weapon fits in there too. I think hammers do a little damage even if you miss.

Anyways, this is the triangle I always try for in modern games

#1 Medium Autoloader aka Wondernine aka Duty pistol aka 'Nine': Basic 9mm handgun be it a Glock 17, Beretta 92F, Wizbang 9inator, or whatever
2d6 damage 30 range 15 shot fast reload

#2 Heavy Autoloader aka Army Pistol, aka 'Forty-Five': basic 1911A1 Colt 45acp, also anything like a Sig220 in 45 or a smith and wesson 645 or 4506.
2d6+2 damage (note) 30 range 8 shot fast reload
Note: 2d6+2 gives the same average damage as 2d8, just more consistantly average.

#3 Combat Revolver, aka Python, aka 'a Magnum' aka Three-Fifty-Seven: basically a 357 revovler by any make, Colt Python, Smith and Wesson 686, Ruger GP100, whatever. While not exactly a dirty harry gun, it has that feel
2d8 40 range 6 shot slow reload

I see those as each good in different ways, and no one is clearly best. Instead it makes a character a bit more interesting.

Also, I then normally slide in some less great firearms, either in the hands of the enemy or easier to get ahold of at the beginning

#1 Security Guard Revolver aka Barny Fife Gun: your basic model 10 or equivalent fixed sight 38 special revolver
1d12 30 range 6 shot slow reload

#2 Ghetto-Gun, Gat, Tupperware Handgun: an inferior 9mm handgun cashing in on the glock's appearance and noteriety like a Hi-Point or somethign similar
2d6 25 range 8 shot fast reload Extra Drawback: jams (i.e. doesn't fire next round on a roll of X, be it rolling a 1 to hit rolling a 20 to hit, or rolling 12 damage or 2 damage, take whichever single condition like)

I then flesh out the handguns with 2 different small, highly concealed models. Sometimes it is good to restrict certain sneaky or nerdy or bookish characters to these, just say like a wizard isn't drawn to a battleaxe, if these guys want a gun, all they know is they want a gun, and are generally drawn to a smaller one when they went to the gunstore or in the trunk of some black market dealer.

#1 Small autopistol, aka James Bond Gun. your basic 380 handgun, such as a Walther PPK and the like.
2d4 range 25 8 shot fast reload Special Feature: High Concealability

#2 Small revolver aka Snubnose aka Saturday Night Special (although I don't use that term due to racist origins) basic 38 2" barrel small revolver ala the Ruger Sp101 or Smith and Wesson Cheif's special
1d12 range 25 5 shot slow reload Special Feature: High Concealability

#3 Mousegun, Vest Pocket Pistol, Duce-Duce, etc A small 25acp or 22LR handgun, like a baby browning, beretta jetfire, etc.
1d6 range 15 7 shot fast reload Special Feature: Extremely High Concealability
(you can make a jennings or locrin by adding in the jam trait)

Again, you either get low ammo capacity and slow reload with good damage or better ammo faster reload and lower damage...or extreme concealability.

Thats the basic framework, You can build rifles on top of that (30-30 lever gun, AK-47 type gun, M16 type gun) and you can cover pretty much all your options, but mainly those come out when your people are being attacked, or rarely when your guys grab some serious hardware throw caution to the wind, don't care about the cleanup, or law enforcment or security stepping in, etc. Basically when O-K Corral mode kicks in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheRealOrion Sep 10, 2008 21:46:16	I've been developing this elsewhere for a while now, a system that has generic guns instead of brand-names. Now, you can buy a "heavy revolver" and then say it's a Magnum, or a Colt Python, or whatever you like. I've been helped in this effort greatly by both Tema and Backstabbist: Generic Firearms for d20 Modern
#2 tema69 Sep 11, 2008 2:59:13	Lookin' good. Glad to see the final product.
#3 AnimeSniper Sep 11, 2008 12:03:48	Looks really good!
#4 akodo Sep 13, 2008 20:31:27	I like the concept some suggested changes: You have derringer, but then list a non-derringer to represent it. As you can get a derringer that can fire 45acp, I think you should treat the derringer like a class of gun, just like you do autoloaders and revolvers derringer (light) derringer (medium) and derringer (heavy) machine pistols, I'd place the range at equal to their standard counterpart. Really, a glock 18 or Beretta 93r isn't going to shoot any further than the glock 19 or beretta 92. Also, don't go from light to heavy, go from light to medium. I'd also introduce heavy machine pistol, ala the Mac-10 with damage the same as the heavy autoloader and 30 round box mag. It's a fine line between machinepistol and SMG, I know, but if the scorpion is a machinepistol then the mac10 definately fits, as would the styr TMP. Further, for heavy autoloader, toss out the refrence to desert eagle. If anything the deagle and say a 454 casull revolver or something similar should be classed as an 'extra heavy' Stick with heavy representing a 45acp or 10mm or 45 super and equvialent semiauto. Box ammo size, for autoloaders, put light and heavy at 8, medium at 15 Ranges, for revolvers up the range by 5, generally revolvers have better sights and better triggers even in DA mode, if you thumb back the hammer, even moreso. It also gives people a reason to pick them...slight range increase may come in handy. I'd redo Revolver, light to represent a snubnose 38 or something, i;'d go Revolver, Light (e.g., smith and wesson cheif's special) 2d6 20 ft. S 5 cyl. I'd stick at range 20 for this one. Maybe call it Revolver, Snubnose If you want to introduce a .22 revolver I'd call it Revolver,Plinker (Kit gun) or revolver, target (kit gun) at 2d4 damage with range equal to the medium revolver rifles I'd never describe a light rifle as a remington 700, those things can be chambered in anything from 223 to 416 rigby For the light rifle example I'd pick Winchester model 94 in 30-30, or simply call it a "30-30 lever action" the damage fits much better. Of course it would be used for anything from an SKS to a bolt action 223 coyote rifle, etc, but that's all close enough and a lever action in 30-30 is going to be the most prevelant. PDC 12, and move the weight to 6lbs For medium, that would be a better place for the name remington 700 although giving the example of "30-06 deer rifle" would be fine too. And yes, about half of them have detachable box magazines now. I'd definately drop the PDC down to 12 or so, also use 8-10lbs If you want a sniper type rifle call it a Rifle, Precision (M24 sniper rifle) same 2d10 damage as medium, range 120, PDC 20-21 or so I'd add in heavy rifle but I am thinking more of somethign like a grizzly bear hunter or lion hunter would carry. Rifle, Heavy (dangerous game rifle) 2d12 80 ft. S 4 box L2 large 10 lb. PDC 20 also add Battle Rifle (e.g., FN-FAL, M-14) 2d10 80 ft. S, A 20 box L1 large 12 lb. I'd pull the 50BMG both in rifle form and in heavy machinegun form from the game, or, use the term Rifle, Antimaterial (Barret M82) and stick it under exotic, with the same penalties for firing it without the use of a bipod as you do with the MGs listed there. I'd also increase the damage 2d20 sounds good based on your other stuff The shotgun damage needs to be brought up to at least equal to the medium rifle, if not superior to it. I'd definately go with 2d10, but 4d4 or 5d4 can be a lot of fun. (I'd use 4d4 but allow the purchase of 5d4 ammo at the hinderance of reducing gun capacity by 1, minimum 2) I'd remove Shotgun autoloader and replace it with two catagories #1 Shotgun, combat and put ammo at 8 internal, that would cover anything from an Remington 870 police to a SPAS-12, there just aren't many box fed shotguns except for in video games. #2 Shotgun, sporting put ammo at 5 internal, duplicating any standard duck shotgun, and increase the range to 40 Shotgun, heavy, also increase the damage, and go with 5 internal. I don't think the light machinegun should be just large, it should also be huge, so firing it from anything but it's bipod should be giving -4 maybe even introduce bipod as an accessory, that can give any large weapon + something and can allow any huge weapon to be fired when prone with bipod extended (or kneeling with bipod on some sort of ledge or brace) to ignore the penalty for firing a too large of weapon. Also, if you are keeping the Ma Duce heavy machinegun, i'd call it giant and introduce the tripod the only way to handle something that big shy of a pintel mount on a vehicle. tripod can be carried seperately but weighs 40 lbs, takes some time to mount the ma duce on the tripod, but when mounted, you can fire without penaty. I'm not sure you want to get into buying extended magazines for anything, that ends up being more wrong than right. If anything, simply go with the note that a medium autopistol and medium machinepistol can purchase a 30 round magazine, and a heavy autopistol can upgrade to a 10 shot mag. As far as the revolvers, no, you can't upgade to a 9 shot or 12 shot cylinder, especially not in medium or heavy. I'd put in that a medium or heavy revolver can uprgrade to a 7 shot cylinder model for +1PDC, and that a target revolver could upgrade to 9 shot cylinder model for +1 PDC Also for +1 PDC, upgrade the revolver to a 'moonclip model' with the rules of it can be considered a 7 box
#5 tema69 Sep 14, 2008 4:22:10	I don't think the light machinegun should be just large, it should also be huge, so firing it from anything but it's bipod should be giving -4 A 15 lb., 1 meter long M249 SAW is not Huge. It is perfectly fireable from a standing or crouching position from what I've read.
#6 akodo Sep 14, 2008 4:40:26	it all depends on how you define your terms. If you mean is it as big as a creature that is class huge, no. Can you fire it from a standing position, yes, but it is fairly unweildy, you don't have good accuracy or control from that position, so the -4 for firing a weapon too large should definately apply. In the same manner people are physically capable of firing a barret M82 from a standing position...it's just not very accurate due to the imbalance of the weapon among many other factors. It need not be size, but there should be SOME mechanism that makes it so a SAW is treated like a SAW and not a big assault rifle. There should be some mechanism to make the player desire to drop prone and deploy bipod if he wants to use the SAQ effectively. Face it, if it could be carried easily and fired like an assault rifle, EVERYONE would be carrying one. However, compared to a fast handling light weight M-16, the SAW just can't be fired very well on the move or from standing or kneeling or basically any way other than with bipod deployed. Oh sure, you can definately send lead downrange in the general vicinity of the target, and standing with the SAW at your shoulder would work good enough against a target that popped up maybe half a block away (say 40-50 meters)
#7 tema69 Sep 14, 2008 5:55:02	I totally agree with you, but this does not make it Huge in d20 Modern terms. In the variant system I'm working on, firing a Huge weapon as if it were a Large weapon (or firing a Large as a Medium) incurs a penalty to hit equal to it's weight in lb. Perhaps I should make a second rule to that, for weapons like the M249, BAR, etc... that are fireable from standing position, but not as accurate - a penalty to hit equal to half its weight (in lb.).
#8 akodo Sep 14, 2008 15:47:29	thing is, weight is just one factor. Rate of Fire is a big one. Often rate of fire is affected by the weight of the bolt, among many other factors, so light guns can often have higher rates of fire just for that alone, and for a 5.56NATO vs 7.62NATO weapon, the smaller, higher velocity cartridge that phyiscally weighs a lot less that is going to cause an increase in ROF as well. Anyways, a light gun with high ROF is going to be damned uncontrollable too. In fact, weight adds to the controllability (especially if we are taking SMGs, but it would hold for hip-firing or shoulder-firing a true machinegun as well) I think adding a trait like "supported weapon" might be the trick, so you can give a flat penalty of say -4 to any and all light and medium machineguns as well as anti-material rifles. That still leaves the heavy machineguns like the Ma Duce in need of addressing. Maybe go "Carriage weapon" as these guns used to be situated on a pair of wheels for towing behind a jeep or pulled by a cart horse or pushed around by a few guys, and a tripod would simply be a modern, improved carrage that had no wheels... But it would be great if there could be a term that would apply to say mortars as well, something where you basically carry the weapon in two halves, in case A, the M2 gun itself by one or more likely two guys and the 50 lb tripod seperately by an additional guy, or in case B, the mortar tube carried buy one guy, second guy brings the baseplate and leg, and the third guy hauls about 10 rounds of ammo around. I am tempted to say 'crew served' as it isn't absolutely necessary to have a loader and guy linking belts for say an M60 (but it is nice) and I am also tempted to say 'support' but that is too close to 'supported'
#9 tema69 Sep 14, 2008 16:26:20	For automatic fire being uncontrollable, I refer to CyberDave's recoil rules. Nice, easy, and simple.
#10 akodo Sep 16, 2008 16:07:23	I have not seem them, but even firing very short bursts or heck some of the SAWs with a semiauto switch, it still just doesn't work well, it would be like hanging a toaster oven off the end of your regular M-16. But on the flip side, going prone and using a bipod gives you a LOT of improvements in controllability
#11 tema69 Sep 16, 2008 17:23:33	Basically, take a penalty to hit based on the weapon's size and damage. Your strength bonus might offset or reduce the penalty (a normal rifle is minus 3-4, manageable by most, but enough to give a slight penalty to hit).
#12 akodo Sep 16, 2008 17:34:52	also, I was thinking, it would be easier to just dump the light and heavy machine pistols. Lumping the heavy machine pistols into the SMGs is just fine, and really is it worth having a light for just the scorpion? Not much else classifies. Second, what I have always gone for is to use game reprucisions for carrying around big and obvious assault rifles and shotguns. Even a shotgun with a pistol grip in a trench coat is going to be screamingly obvious to anyone who isn't totally wrapped up in themselves. Now, I don't know how this would work in your world, but I have always gone for attempting to balance the hanguns the most. I have always gone for a triangle approach, where each one has some good factors. You can see this in DnD 4th edition. You either get a +3 proficiency longsword that does 1d8 or you get a +2 battleaxe that does 1d10 and I am sure warhammer or some other weapon fits in there too. I think hammers do a little damage even if you miss. Anyways, this is the triangle I always try for in modern games #1 Medium Autoloader aka Wondernine aka Duty pistol aka 'Nine': Basic 9mm handgun be it a Glock 17, Beretta 92F, Wizbang 9inator, or whatever 2d6 damage 30 range 15 shot fast reload #2 Heavy Autoloader aka Army Pistol, aka 'Forty-Five': basic 1911A1 Colt 45acp, also anything like a Sig220 in 45 or a smith and wesson 645 or 4506. 2d6+2 damage (note) 30 range 8 shot fast reload Note: 2d6+2 gives the same average damage as 2d8, just more consistantly average. #3 Combat Revolver, aka Python, aka 'a Magnum' aka Three-Fifty-Seven: basically a 357 revovler by any make, Colt Python, Smith and Wesson 686, Ruger GP100, whatever. While not exactly a dirty harry gun, it has that feel 2d8 40 range 6 shot slow reload I see those as each good in different ways, and no one is clearly best. Instead it makes a character a bit more interesting. Also, I then normally slide in some less great firearms, either in the hands of the enemy or easier to get ahold of at the beginning #1 Security Guard Revolver aka Barny Fife Gun: your basic model 10 or equivalent fixed sight 38 special revolver 1d12 30 range 6 shot slow reload #2 Ghetto-Gun, Gat, Tupperware Handgun: an inferior 9mm handgun cashing in on the glock's appearance and noteriety like a Hi-Point or somethign similar 2d6 25 range 8 shot fast reload Extra Drawback: jams (i.e. doesn't fire next round on a roll of X, be it rolling a 1 to hit rolling a 20 to hit, or rolling 12 damage or 2 damage, take whichever single condition like) I then flesh out the handguns with 2 different small, highly concealed models. Sometimes it is good to restrict certain sneaky or nerdy or bookish characters to these, just say like a wizard isn't drawn to a battleaxe, if these guys want a gun, all they know is they want a gun, and are generally drawn to a smaller one when they went to the gunstore or in the trunk of some black market dealer. #1 Small autopistol, aka James Bond Gun. your basic 380 handgun, such as a Walther PPK and the like. 2d4 range 25 8 shot fast reload Special Feature: High Concealability #2 Small revolver aka Snubnose aka Saturday Night Special (although I don't use that term due to racist origins) basic 38 2" barrel small revolver ala the Ruger Sp101 or Smith and Wesson Cheif's special 1d12 range 25 5 shot slow reload Special Feature: High Concealability #3 Mousegun, Vest Pocket Pistol, Duce-Duce, etc A small 25acp or 22LR handgun, like a baby browning, beretta jetfire, etc. 1d6 range 15 7 shot fast reload Special Feature: Extremely High Concealability (you can make a jennings or locrin by adding in the jam trait) Again, you either get low ammo capacity and slow reload with good damage or better ammo faster reload and lower damage...or extreme concealability. Thats the basic framework, You can build rifles on top of that (30-30 lever gun, AK-47 type gun, M16 type gun) and you can cover pretty much all your options, but mainly those come out when your people are being attacked, or rarely when your guys grab some serious hardware throw caution to the wind, don't care about the cleanup, or law enforcment or security stepping in, etc. Basically when O-K Corral mode kicks in.