Any help would be appreciated: And for those curious, I plan on having the HK PSG1, and for non-sniping missions and situations using the MP5K and the Colt M1911 with a combat knife just in case. My character, like the other members of the party he will likely join, is a member of an international anti-terror, anti-crime organization hired to kill mob bosses, drug lords, and be used as supplementary forces on dangerous missions against this type of target (EDIT: Think Mithril from Full-Metal Panic, but without the Arm Slaves, Black Tech or Whispered.)
If you mean a long range guy that can actualy hit with 4 DTaps of a 2d10 gun:
High Dex & Int, Strong10 / MA10
DoubleTap, Farshot series
cc Stealth Skills
Use a Garand or a m14 with Bayonet.
Or forget the bayonet, and if anybody gets too close for the rifle
you can give an abject lesson to those poor souls in NGWDm10S10:
"Never Get Within Melee Distance of a MartialArtist10 / Strong10"
Requirements
To qualify as a Sniper, a character must fulfill the following
criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Skills: Concentration 4 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Feats: Dead Aim, Far Shot.
Special: Defensive position class feature.
As far as I know, the only class with Defensive Position is Gunslinger, which has Medium BAB.
as opposed to a guy that also is good at sniping
To get the fancy title,
give up some skill points to Concentration
and some BAB for Gunslinge rClass
It is not too bad to give up BAB,
as long as your plan is not to be able to hit things when you attack.
And those points in Concentration are gonna be Cross Classed too?
Like I said,
two schools of thought on making a sniper:
i) Any dude that can snipe well
ii) Fancy title class
Disarming a ClassSniper can be really bad for the sniper.
Disarming a Str10/MA10 sniper is actually worse for the badguys: Turns out that master marksman & sneak is just a hobby for KungFu Joe, the BuddaPalm Assasin (who carries a Scoped Garand)
Just say he needed to lose some weight, and spent the past 8 years taking TaeBo at the club.
Now he jumps around & hums while he beats people up.
One solution is to give the Gunslinger class full BAB.
Another solution is to rework the classes by splitting BAB into Ranged BAB and Melee BAB, so that some are better at one or the other, while others are good at both, like the Soldier Advanced Class.
Failure To BAB: Lose 1 AttackAction and all ToHit rolls at -6
a small price to pay for +2 concealment stuff and spending all those useful Concentration ranks as a crossclass, and something really cool you might get in just the right setup to do
What is setup you need to take advantage of high BAB?
Oh yeah, any fight anywhere any weapon or unarmed.
Gunslings can shoot without provoking someone close, but Str/MA can just get openpalm oldschool on anyone that gets close enough to threaten.... getting close enough to threaten is more dangerous than staying away from that snipey guy.
I think you guys missed the fact that he’s not using the Sniper Prestige Class; he/she is asking how to make a good sniper with just the core rules.My answer to that is that it depends on whether you mean: Sniper=Head Shot or Sniper=Long Range?
Unfortunately there are no Advanced Classes in the Core Rules to aid in the latter.
It depends on what you ultimately want; on one hand backstabbist is right in that the Martial Artist grants the highest possible Base Attack Bonus (along with 10 levels of Strong Hero), but doesn’t grant any abilities to ranged combat from them (though you’ll have a much easier time when the targets get too close).
The Soldier though it doesn’t grant full Base Attack Bonus, has more skill points and increases two saves moderately (;5+ Intelligence Mod Fortitude and Reflex) unlike the Martial Artist major focus in one save and lower skill points (reflex; 3+ Intelligence Mod).
Also the Soldier give you quite a bit over time: a free Weapon focus feat seems not like a lot but I does free up a slot for other feats you might want; Weapon Specialization and it Greater version increase the output of the chosen weapon and doesn’t require you to be within a certain range to benefit from it (if your long range it helps [reminds me of a debate about whether the rouge made a better sniper than the fighter…ended badly for the rouge once the range went past 30 feet]); Improved Reaction increases your Initiative, while Improved Critical and Critical Strike increases your odds of a critical hit (though firearms are still less likely to score a critical than most close-combat weaponry.)
The Gunslinger is a bit of a pain as it’s the only Advanced Class that can’t be entered completely with the help of occupation (there are no occupations with both: Tumble and Move Silently as selectable skills), though if you’re in no hurry it can be still taken at level 9, and occupation can at least cut the skills points in half.
Like the Soldier it doesn’t have full Base Attack Bonus but like the Solider it has two moderate saves over one major (Reflex and Will) and again, has more skill points. Its first ability is Close-combat Shot, which lets you use ranged weapons at close ranges without the fear of gaining Attacks of Opportunity; Like the Solider the Gunslinger gets Weapon Focus for free (at level 2, instead of level 1) and eventually Greater Weapon Focus (which eliminates some of the lose in BaB; you can see it as ending with a BaB of +9 over +7, though only with your chosen weapon); Defensive Positioning and Sharp-Shooting rely on the use of cover in the game (the former being your benefit, the latter for denying it to your targets) if the game makes no use of cover these won’t be very useful; Lightning Shot is useful but if you’re having a harder time shooting them in the first place avoid using it unless you like gambling (on the other hand if cant them in the first place [and can’t run away] Lightning away); Bulls-Eyes is better than Critical Strike since it can used more often but it does have the weakness in that it uses Action Points, so it should be used when you think the bonus outstrips the loss of the point.
The biggest thing a ‘Sniper’ should look for is denying his opponents Dexterity Modifier to cut down their defenses a bit, so consider the skills Move Silently and Hide.
Other than that it’s up to you to find what works ‘for’ you.
P.S.: The Sniper class is rather difficult to get to, but then again it is 'prestige' class.
I think the activity of sniping can be done just fine by guys that dont have fancy classes.
What I post below is the BAB build, that BAB can meet many combat styles well enough while it maintains a universal usefulness.
It is not the only way, there is much to be said for the SuperStealth style that relies more on the stalk than the shot. I just happen to like the Marksman style more
Weapon Focus is a +1 for one type of wepaon
BAB is +1 for ALL weapons and unarmed, as well as fuel for PowerAttack
Soldier is nice for the Specialization,
but again, that is only applied to 1 weapon you have Focus in.
Soldier gives up 3 BAB: you are 3 worse to hit.
Focus can gain back 1 of those, but only in 1 weapon: All Weapons -3 / m14 -2 (focus)
Specialization is nice, but it is only 1 weapon. Also, if you need to do more damage, use a bigger gun. However, most chaps dont take a plain 2d10 gun DTap in stride.
Tactical Aide is good for a team player. Other than the Spotter, snipey guys generally dont play in teams. But the ability to multitask is good to have, which also leads to not overfocusing in just being a longrange hiden sniper
Improved Critical sounds impressive, till we admit it really is only usable 5% of the time. Any plan that depends on getting a critical is a bad plan. Stick to plans for the other NonCritical 90% of the time
Improved Reaction is good. There really is not another side to consider, its just a good thing to have
Critical Strike is yet again something you wont be dealing with 90% of your shots. Any plan that requires a Critical is a bad plan.
Improved Reaction is good, and the Specializations are kinda handy but can be met with Hardware. Focus is just a finicky parttime BAB subsitute.
A StrMA guy with extra +6 BAB (20th)
Is +4/+0 Ranged, +4/+4 melee compared to a guy with TWF feat
Is +2 compared toa guy with the Precise shot feat
Is +2 compared to a guy with the Autofire feat
That means by having that BAB is better than not having that BAB and taking all 3 of those feats
Is +6 more fuel for Power Attacks
Has an extra attack each round, where as Gunslinger LightningShot is -2 on all attacks
Is not safe to shoot while threatened, but may dish out copius amounts of kungfu (while still holding a 2hand weapon).
Shooting from where you are not seen:
There is a -1 on the enemy's Spot roll for each 10' distance.
USE THAT INSTEAD OF HIDE SKILL!!!!!!!!!!!
What good is extra +6BAB? That can put you 3 more range incs out, and with a 90' gun that is another +27DC on the enemy Spot If you do your snipey guy work at 5 RI away, that is +45DC on the badguy Spot..... even if you have no Hide
A good plan for a SnipeyGuy is
MAX BAB, DTap & Farshot, 4 or 5 RI out for hiding, with a Garand/m1A/PSG1
might even buy into Burst feat & use m14 for 4d10 attacks
and like I've said, use a 44mag or Garand or m14 or Barret or your boot upside their head and it makes no difference.... all get the benefits from FullBAB so you are just as dangerous with rifles pistols or boots.
His only shortcoming in the close work is being 2 less Initiative than the soldier
If your GM is letting you use D20Future classes, other class choices are possible, and possibly more viable... but that's because D20Future has several (broken) full BAB classes.
If your GM is letting you take feats from Urban Arcana, Soldier might actually be worth taken to 10. Why? Power Critical. You spend an action point to threaten a critical hit, and with Critical Strike you're going to auto-confirm. All you need to do now is hit...
Another fun build utilizing only D20Modern and not MA, though it's not as effective of a build as Backstabbist's, involves taking at least a few levels of dedicated (enough to get faith, and Cool Under Pressure/Aware is nice to have, too). Put your high stats into Dex and Wis, Int is nice as well, but Dedicated Hero gets a decent number of skills per level so you can afford to not have it be stellar.
Take the Military Occ to get PFP and Hide/Move Silently as Perma-Class skills if you don't want to rely on distance like in the above suggestion. Heroic Surge is a good pick for your first feat, and if you've got a mean GM who likes to spawn enemies near you Point Blank Shot is also a good way to go.
It's also good because it lets you access Double-Tap at 3rd level.
Get AFP as your Dedicated Hero bonus feat, or if you're going to take Dedicated to 5, you can wait to get it until level 4, since you don't have the attack bonus to handle Burstfire yet, and get Far shot first.
Assuming you went Dedicated 5, now would be the time to cross-class into either Soldier or Strong, or take yet another level or in Dedicated Hero for a +1BAB, a Bonus Feat, and either Aware or Cool Under Pressure (whichever you didn't take).
Take Burst Fire as your 6th level feat.
If you're not going to take Strong, then I suggest you reach Dedicated 8 before going into Soldier, as the +2 BAB really is critical. You can use the extra two bonus feats to broaden your horizons a bit, maybe buffing up your with Medical Expert and Surgery, or giving your already insane Spot/Listen a boost via Alertness.
Take Dead Aim as your 12th level feat. You can either improve your Melee combat skills with your Soldier bonus feats, or gain proficiency with exotic firearms of whatever kind you desire.
For your remaining feats, Precise Shot is pretty useful when giving support fire. If you're getting that, you may consider Skip Shot for kicks. Improved Init is always nice, too, if you absolutely must be the first to act.
Last four levels of this build can be Dedicated/Soldier, or Strong. Dedicated will net you one more talent, feat, and BAB, and Soldier's benefits aren't that incredible either unless you have access to UA. Strong will get you up to 16BAB, which is just enough for your fourth attack.
This build leaves you 4 BAB short of Martial Artist. That sucks, but you're also more than a combat machine (or at least that's what you tell yourself to get to sleep at night). Weapon Focus will make the difference hurt a little less, and so will the Weapon Spec. duo. Faith will help when you absolutely must hit that heavily-armored SoB across the scene, especially if you have a Wisdom mod of +3 or more.
If the MA wasn't broken, this would be a viable way to go. :P
Oh yeah, its a whole other kind of game with d20Future brokenness
If your GM is letting you take feats from Urban Arcana, Soldier might actually be worth taken to 10. Why? Power Critical.
Yup, my point to not have plans that rely on Criticals is not so important if you can be sure to get that crit when you need it
Another fun build utilizing only D20Modern and not MA<...> involves taking at least a few levels of dedicated
Sure, that is a pretty good build too... a little different way to run it, but a good way if you stick to your strengths (& good that it is not a 1trick pony)
Whichever build you look at, there is a tier of style that decides whether or not to take Advanced Firearms Prof (Autofire Feat). If you plan to have access to full auto weapons, then taking Burst is THE way to go, and you need Autofire to get Burst. But if you dont think you will be able to procure full auto weapons, then why spend 2 feats on Burst. Remember, the Burst feat is required to do a burst, but you dont have to have Autofire feat to do an autofire (you just are -4Tohit an easy target). You can do pretty good with a 2d10 rifle and DTap.
will get you up to 16BAB, which is just enough for your fourth attack.
Amen to that.
Getting that 16/11/6/1 is where the scores can really change compared to 12/7/2
any way you go, it is important to get Hide or Spot as a permanent skill in StartingOcc
-DF
Alternative if you have a nice gm he can let you take the Gunslingers special ability needed for the Sniper prectige class as a feat. Couse I think it really sucks that you need to go 4 level gunslinger to become a "Sniper".
So then, Dedicated / Tracer / (nice GM)Sniper ;)
sniper: a guy that snipes well
Sniper: a fancy title PrC
Cause I still havent seen anyone add up the +ToHits from that PrC to offset the -6ToHit by not taking FullBAB. Isnt the core concept of to snipe to... you know... HIT the target when you shoot rather than missing with a really impressive fancy PrC shot?
Isnt the core concept of to snipe to... you know... HIT the target when you shoot rather than missing with a really impressive fancy PrC shot?
Not according to d20 Modern.
WotC in all their infinite wisdom apparently didn't think that shooter classes needed to actually hit their targets. :P
Are you saying that a character with 3/4 BAB cannot hit a target?
There are other ways to achieve attack roll bonuses other than 1-1 BAB progression. Allow me to present an option:
Dedicated Hero 3
Dexterity 15, Wisdom 14
BAB +2
Feats:
Simple Weapons Proficiency (class starting feat)
Personal Firearms Proficiency (occupation bonus feat)
Far Shot (level 1 feat)
Dead Aim (level 1 feat)
Weapon Focus (Barrett Light Fifty) (dedicated hero 2 bonus feat)
Talents:
Skill Emphasis (Hide?) (dedicated hero 1 talent)
Faith (dedicated hero 3 talent)
With a mastercraft +1 Barrett Light Fifty the character can get a +10+1d6 to the attack roll against an essentially flat-footed target up to 240 ft. away.
BAB +2
Dex bonus +2
Action point: 1d6+2 (Faith)
Attack from hiding +2 (negates target's Dex bonus to defense).
Weapon Focus +1
Equipment bonus +1
I'd say that's a pretty good result gained from a 3/4-1 BAB progression...
-DF
Please post the rest of that Non-FullBAB guy, the level 20 endgame results.
It is easy enough to say a 2nd level Smart is merely 1 ToHit behind a full BAB class, and that is pretty close..... but it is glaringly obvious at even just 10th level that the guy will be 5 Tohit worse than a full BAB guy.
What ToHit bonuses will the 20th level inferior BAB guys get
to make up for the > -6 ToHit All Attacks < they have compared to the full BAB guy
Lets not compare what happens WITH an action point
vs things the guy can do all day every day.
If you job is to shoot far from hiding, you shouldnt require a critical or action point to do your job.
Talents:
Skill Emphasis (Hide?) (dedicated hero 1 talent)
Faith (dedicated hero 3 talent)
With a mastercraft +1 Barrett Light Fifty the character can get a +10+1d6 to the attack roll against an essentially flat-footed target up to 240 ft. away.
BAB rate: Inferior . . . Full
Hide Ranks: ~6 . . . . . +0
Hide Focus: +3 . . . . . +0
Hide +Dex : +2 . . . . . +2
240' range: +23 . . . . +23
Hide 3rd lvl: +34 . . . . +25
But when a Full BAB guy has 6 more BAB than the 3/4BAB guy,
the shot is at the same odds 3 more Range Incs out.
Hide Range mod 2nd RI: +23
Hide Range mod 5th RI : +59
Strong/MA snipey with 1rank hide 15dex, final Tohit# X : +62
3/4 BAB snipey guy 23rank &Talent hide 15dex final Tohit# X : +51
With -2Tohit LightningShot,
the 3/4BAB guy gets closer to keep same ToHit odds: +39 total hide roll
while the FullBAB guy with 1 rank is +62 Hide
By just stepping back 3 more RI's, and taking the shot at the same odds as the 3/4 BAB guy, he get to translate that extra 6 points of BAB into +36 Hide.... why waste skill points and a Skill Focus Hide for just 3 points, when stepping back gives you +36?
And this aint just some excessive 50BMG only munchkin way,
it works almost the same with a plain ole GI newb M1 Garand as well
DF
Please post the rest of that Non-FullBAB guy, the level 20 endgame results.
Are you serious?
Hell, I guess you are. How stupid of me to consider that people would actually spend time playing characters below 20th level.
-DF
Some of us like to play past level five. ;)
I think Backstabbist's point is that, while at 3rd level characters attack bonuses aren't that big of a deal, if you get much higher up than that full BAB really starts to matter.
Some of us like to play past level five. ;)
And my point is that the BAB isn't the alpha-and-omega of a sniper character at any level. There are other ways to get bonuses to your to hit roll. Even a Smart Hero can pull all kind of weird modifiers out of nature's own pocket with Plan and Exploit Weakness.
-DF
Full 20 BAB+3dex+Weapon Focus+MCweapon > 15 BAB+3dex+Weaponfocus+MCweapon...+3wis/planning sometimes. The dedicated and/or Smart sniper is still a viable character, but the Strong/MA can put out more damage by hitting more often, especially when firearms damage bonuses involve taking penalties to hit.
Even if the dedicated and/or smart goes soldier for extra damage, on average that extra dice on a decent rifle is going to outdo the +4 from Weapon Spec.
I suppose you could try going Dedicated/Daredevil/Gunslinger for a double-action-point combo that gets you an extra 3d6 damage on that target you already needed an AP to hit...
A Sniper to me is "one shot one kill", Takeing victims with surprise. A sniper is one who can crawl through enemies lines to get to the position and take down importent persons with one shot before anyone can react.
Of course Higher BAB helps with "the shot". But what other benefit does the strong/Martialartist class get besides full BAB?
Why martial artist?, Go Tracer instead. (well I know that's a problem if you don''t have the future book)
The tracer get the extra dice of damage to take down people that are flatfooted, and they get full BAB. And choose Dedicated instead of the strong hero, you can become Tracer at 3 or 4th level of dedicated?, Then you suffer a total of -1 of the BAB compared to Strong/martialartist. to a level of 13th then you have to choose another class then tracer.
But why compare class combos at level 20th?, ok.. sure some combos are better then others at level 20, but its the way to that level that should be fun/good combo to me. And to that point the few extra BAB you get isn't much of a deal. Instead you get tons of extra skills and talents that I think is much more fun/interesting then the strong and martial artist combo.
Thats my opinion... and sorry for my bad english, I'm Swedish ;)
Hell, I guess you are. How stupid of me to consider that people would actually spend time playing characters below 20th level.
No, I have long been a proponant of the place to start a char is at level 1.... "First Level" should be your first level.
However, just because you are 1st level
doesnt mean its fine to take Smart then Ded then Tough then 2Fast and then a Charismatic,
if your plan is to have a +20BAB at the end. If one is planning to have a +20BAB at 20th, then what you take at 1st shouldnt preclude that from beiong availible later.
Where you want to finish should guid where you go at each step.
Including 1st level if you want the +20BAB.
And my point is that the BAB isn't the alpha-and-omega of a sniper character at any level
Right.
It is the ALPHA.
Guys will have other things besides Full BAB for the levels they take, and thats where you can slip in your omegas and mabe a epsilon or two.
Why martial artist?, Go Tracer instead. (well I know that's a problem if you don''t have the future book)
actually, its a problem because it is a cheeseball class, the only Sneak Attack class happens to be one of the few Full BAB classes? Even Gunslinger dont rate full bab but sneak attack Tracer does? Like most things in d20Future, the best use for that is to not have it in your game.
I just generally assume we all dont use broken gun Gadgets or classes, or just about anything else, from d20Future.
A Sniper to me is "one shot one kill", Takeing victims with surprise
Roll that beautiful bean footage from Saving Private Ryan: Sniper vs Sniper. The first guy hit was taken by suprise, then they all get to play the "crap, there is a sniper pinning us down because he can hit us while we are too far to hit him" game. All the riflemen that were no longer suprised just parked it till their got their own sniper to engage the distant target.
Sure 1Shot-1Kill would be nice.
A mook has 4-10 hp, and the first attack of a double tap Garrand is 3d10, avg 17 and bell curved far away from doing under 6
But you are trying to convert an class that specifies at melee combat to a longrange gunner class?!. Ofcource Tracer then does a better job on that point.
So the martialarists abilities in range combat? is ZERO, The class isn't supposed to be an ranged class. Martialartist is very good at what she's supposed to do, melee combat with her fists. And no other class can be compared to that.
And calling Tracers ability a "Sneak Attack" (asumed from the DnD) is wrong, couse of the loss of flanking.
Tracer can't use the swiftstrike ability when the target is not unaware of him, so I don't see that as a much of a problem.
But I still agree of that Tracer is one of the better advanced classes in the game.
Well if I would say that Tracer isn't a good class I would lie... ,ok the class have full BAB that's really nice indeed. And the class get the swiftstrike ability and better on move silently. It's a really good class and serves it's purpose to take down unaware targets, I agree.
But you are trying to convert an class that specifies at melee combat to a longrange gunner class?!. Ofcource Tracer then does a better job on that point.
You're missing the point. everyone agrees the tracer is a good class. Its just that its TOO good, its broken as hell, so we don't use it. You should know around here we generally avoid or ignore d20 Future material, because its almost all completely broken.
So the martialarists abilities in range combat? is ZERO, The class isn't supposed to be an ranged class.
Wrong on the first part, right on the second. The martial artist does have one good ability that makes it good in ranged combat: The ability to reliably hit a target, even while using feats that increase damage. Thats the value of full BAB, the fact that you take penalties for all those neat shooting tricks or abilities makes the ability to reliably hit with those attacks extremely important. The MA is one of those classes that turns out to be able to fill a role it wasn't supposed to, and does it very well.
Martialartist is very good at what she's supposed to do, melee combat with her fists. And no other class can be compared to that.
Yes, and it turns out its also better at shooting than the Gunslinger.
And calling Tracers ability a "Sneak Attack" (asumed from the DnD) is wrong, couse of the loss of flanking.
Tracer can't use the swiftstrike ability when the target is not unaware of him, so I don't see that as a much of a problem.
He's not saying that the ability is the D&D "sneak attack" mechanic. He's using the term "sneak attack" in a colloquial way.
Back in my day, there was no Flanking, and we called a sneaky backstab a "Backstab"
What part iof SNEAK Attack includes round after round of flanking bonus damage?
I would have figured after the 3rd or 4th time you get that FlankStab on a guy, you have to not consider it in any way Sneaky.
anyhoo
All you need it a enough BAB to get plenty of HideModifier,
enough BAB to get 4 reasonable chance attacks,
and either DTap Garand or BurstFire m14 fired 3 times with odds that dont stink
16BAB -2Lightningshot -2DTap= +12/+12/+7/+2/-3
20BAB -2DTap. . . . . . . . . . . = +18/+13/+8/+3
16BAB -2Lightning -4Burst = +10/+10/+5/+0/-5
20BAB -4Burst . . . . . . . . = +16/+11/+6/+1
20BAB -4Burst -2(+10Hide) = +14/+9/+4/-1
That is 3 4d10 attacks at your choice:
A) +16/+11/+6
B) +10/+10/+5
C) +14/+9/+4 from another range inc away for ~ +10Hide(15with FarShot)
10th Smart +5BAB Exploit<+AttribMod> +3 Plan = +8 & AttribMod
10th Strong +10BAB <+ Same# AttribMod> = +10 & AttribMod
by the time we get to adding in the WisMod for a dedicated, that means he just has to have a really high Int and a really high Wis and a high Dex too for AC....heck, lets just have really high numbers in all 6 stats.
Take a Starting Occ that gives Hide, Move, & PFP
Then level feats for Dtap and Farshot
Soldier can get decent with ONE weapon, and the cap ability is a 10% chance
20BAB works with all weapons as well as your Boot, never runs out of action points
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage.
in my opinion shooting in the modern d20 game is broken but fixable. First of let me state im no marksman or sniper ive got a military background and have qualified Expert by airforce standards as well as army standards. To start with the ranges increments are way off base.
Ballisticly we'll take the .308 150 grain Fullmetal jacketed round maintains its energy ie damage capability to 500 yards.
the reason ive used the .308 for my example it its been the standard sniper rifle round for years only recently partially replaced not completely.
500 yards in game increments would equal -2 per range increment so 80ft per increment.
500 yards = 1500ft divided by 80ft to get the range increments = 19 range increments or -38 to the roll. a shot not allowed by the rules
most deer / big game hunters myself included have pulled an easy 250yard/750ft shoot but in game rules thats still a -19 to the roll. Not to mention the damage the .308 rifle only does 2d10 so on an average roll of 10 points of damage.even on crit roll thats only 20points granted that forces a Massive damage roll, still... it doesnt work.
then you get into the area of called shots my players were constantly asking about them. I think back to the old school D&D / AD&D crititcal hit charts as one of the methods to handle this. as almost all roleplaying games have problems with this type of combat. Champions/ Hero Games has a great hit modifier/dmg chart for hit location, personally i use a modified version of it along with a different range system from shadowrun to handle ranged combat. At which point you get to the ability to hit the target, the character would need a good to high Dexterity bonus, and classes that affect it as ranged combat uses that instead of other stats. A decent Wisdom and Intelligence to be able to determine things that would affect the shot/offset range penalties. Knowledge Physical Sciences is a good example, a good set of optics to also offset range penalties, but incur penalties to detect things close.
after all that its just a dice roll and luck. yeah you can argue what class gives the best ability boosts and stat enhancements, but thats just powergaming.
some times in real life a normal person can pull off the amazing.
we must remember that the game rules are guidelines not written in stone, anyone who has ever made/used house rules understands this, and sometimes it just cool to do it.
Well, if you just play with the core content of d20 modern you're probably right about that strong/ma is the best choice. But to me it feel so wrong that an Martial artist is the best on longrange weapons. Isn't the MA too good then?, as you claim the Tracer is.
LIke Senko said,
the MA dont get the obscene bunch of other impressive stuff along with that BAB.
It is against common thought that Martial Artist would make for the best marksman,
but that is dwarfed by the way RAW has no Dex based class way to make a great marksman. Only Melee combatants are allowed to hit their targets in Modern, they even saddle the ranged classes with having to trade off the little BAB they get in oder to use ranged special goodies.
The difference is the martial artist is good at hitting things with long-range weapons they don't get any OTHER special benefits to the use of them e.g. increased range, increased damage, stun effects etc the Tracer does.
Yes, they do, anyone can get most of these things.
Increased range: feat
Increased damage: feat
Stun effects? Not necessary. A sniper's job is to kill. Period.
No one is denying the Tracer can do these things.
Yes the Tracer gets a lot from class features instead of feats, but we generally assume around here that DMs either ban or heavily houserule d20 Future because its a pile of garbage. So, we use the MA as the ultimate shooter as its more available to players in d20 Modern games.
.Still, I agree that, as is, sniping in d20 Modern is terrible. You may want to borrow elements from Spycraft 2.0 on how to do sniping right.
I thought about a talent/ability to an 3/4 BAB class that lowers the rangeincreasement cost from -2 to -1, That would make that class hitting better then one with full BAB at a rangeincreasment of 5 or more.
Ah, and do you think that the "Sniper" prestige class from the webenchantments to Urbanarcana is a balanced class?
Still just offhand using a scope, far shot feat and the Barret light fifty (2d12, 120 foot increment) you get 120 * 1.5 * 1.5 = 270'. If we take your 750 standard hunting and 1.5 sniper we get 2.7 repeating (round off to 3) and 5.5 repeating (round off to 6). That means an easy hunting shot (as you put it) is only at -4 (for someone trained to take long shots and using the right rifle with a scope subtracted from their to hit roll) while those 1.5 ones are at -10 a not unreasonable shot especially if you assume the sniper is reasonably high level (have to be at least 4th or 5th level to be classed as a "soldier).
Lets say a 5th level (moderately experienced adult) serving as sniper on a special-ops squad. With a starting dex of 15 (just rolled it). They've put their two increases into dex giving them 17 or +3, are a fast hero 4 (3 attack), soldier 1 (0 BAB, + 1 attack weapon focus). That means they're +4 to hit (a highly experienced one could be +7). Assuming a flatfooted target from 1,500 feet away they're making a die roll at -6 (or -3 for an 8th level character) to hit an AC 10 (unless you add class defense bonus for shooting at a person but I'm not sure of that personally I don't think it should be allowed since there's no way they'd be dodging a silenced shot from that range) not that good but not impossible and if you start adding other options e.g. masterwork rifle its -5 (or -2), higher level character it could be +x, variant scopes +x etc etc.
If for example they made it to 14th level (4 fast, 10 soldier not raising dex more than given) you could be looking at 3 (fast BAB) + 7 (soldier BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) + 1 (masterwork rifle) + 3 (dex) = 15 meaning at a range of 1,500 feat they're looking at + 5 to hit and do 2d12 + 4 criticalling automatically on a 19-20.
All of which is just using stuff off the top of my head without looking for bonuses or using stuff outside the corebook and which doesn't take into account a spotter calling the targets for them (a 4th level soldiers tactical aid can add their int bonus to the a nearby soldiers attack or defense) if we assumed a max int spotter (18 + 2 = 20, +5) and a max dex sniper (18 + 2 = 20, +5) this changes again to a + 11 to hit and do 2d12 + 4 criticalling automatically on a 19-20. Roll max damage and your looking at (12 * 4) + 8 = 56 which will take down a lot of people (almost anyone below 5th level (moderately experienced adult) as the highest hit die is d10). Assume an average of 6 you get a total damage of 28 which will kill anyone of first or second level (10 + 10 + 4 [con] + 4 [con]). On a non-critical you get 14 damage of course much less impressive but still such is life and I'm sure people have survived sniper shots on occasion.
Now of course most people aren't going to be 14th level but even a highly experienced one (8th level) can get 3 (fast hero BAB) + 3 (soldier BAB) + 2 (assuming a 14-15 dex which isn't unreasonable I think) +1 (weapon focus) + 1 (masterwork sniper rifle) +2 (spotter with int of 14-15) - 10 (1,500 foot shot) = +2 to hit. Spend an action point and add d6 +3 to +8.
Even using the 80 foot range increment for a hunting rifle you wind up with 180' (again asumming far shot training and a scope) which takes us to 4.16 repeating for its range increments round up to 5 and your looking at -8, not to mention some hunting rifles give a range increment of 90 which works out to a penalty of -6 Deer don't have a defense bonus so its essentially d20 -6 to hit AC 10 a 16 to 20 on the die roll not accounting for dex, masterworking etc.
As far as snipers go I've actually got a player in my current game who's so far only used the fast hero base class and is actually the longest lasting character in the game so far. He has great hiding skills so tends to find high places and concealing himself there while picking targets off.
As for the MA yes they can get increased range/damage but they still have to spend feats on it the tracer class doesn't. To return to my lengthy example at a range of 1,500 feat a 4th level tracer would instead of getting +1 to hit, +2 to damage would get +1d6 damage and could move at full speed while hiding and being a full BAB class essentially gets that +1 from weapon focus anyway. At 8th level they get +3d6 meaning for damage they're doing 2d12+3d6 = a maximum of 42 on a normal hit and 84 on a critical without spending on feats. A marital artist not spending on feats does 24 maximum and 48 on a critical a big difference you'll agree.
At 8th level they get +3d6 meaning for damage they're doing 2d12+3d6 = a maximum of 42 on a normal hit and 84 on a critical without spending on feats. A marital artist not spending on feats does 24 maximum and 48 on a critical a big difference you'll agree.
Well you forgot two things here. You never multiplies the extra dice of damage, either is's from doubletap, swiftstrike or elsewhere. And Tracer also got target spices wich ads +2 to damage if you choose human for an example.
So a critt with an Tracer (2d12+2)*2+3d6, maximum of that would be 46.
I'm personally play an dedicated/tracer with an chargerifle (future). And I doubletap.
So for a critt with doubletap chargerifle would be (2d10+2)*2+1d10+3d6=Maximum of 52.
An Martialartis who does the same thing don't get the extra damage from swiftstrike and target spieces, total 22 point's damage diffrense between tracer and MA. A great diffrence to me :P
Tracer (2d12+2Fav) x2crit +3d6Sneak ?
Average: (15) x2crit + 10.5Sneak = 41
Max: (26) x2crit +18Sneak = 60
now we're using future Charge Rifles?
Why not play the gadget game and make one of them 7d12+3d12 pistols if we are gonna start with the future sillyness?
total 22 point's damage difference between tracer and MA. A great difference to me
yes, now you've got it.
it is a grievously huge unbalancing difference in damage
and skills selection
and the rest of the stuff that makes Tracer the uber class.
Nobody will say that Tracer is not the most bestestest class evar,
and that should tell you something about its balance or lack there of.
What would we have if we copypasted the Tracer to "Hunter" AdC
and cut out the Favored Enemy
cut out the sneak attack bonus damage
cut out the fast sneaking
cut out the Tracking bonuses
... and whats left?
A really really good Full BAB class with a sweet set of bonus feats for ranged weapons, armors, melee, and more... along with a sweet set of skills for stealth and more. This abridged version of Tracer called Hunter is still better than the other full bab classes.
all because RAW decided to hamstring Gunslinger with 3/4BAB.
The beginning of the movie Shooter,
One guy in the reinforcement convoy was shot, maybe flatfooted,
then for the rest of the encounter he was eliminating the entire no longer flatfooted convoy one guy at a time
Show
1) With very little experience, I, too, can learn how to handle a Remington 700P in a matter of moments by shooting at watermelons.
2) The most wanted man in America can use sunglasses and a hat as an effective form of disguise and is freely able to buy napalm, no questions asked.
3) Pipe bombs have a 15 foot kill radius.
4) Nobody else can have the same tactical skills as a gunnery sergeant.
5) Evil US senators keep "1-800-HENCHMEN" on speed dial.
6) If your combat buddy talks about his girlfriend/wife, he will die.
7) Attack dogs are easily fooled into attacking their handlers.
8) If a man kills your dog and you bury him in a hill, the local sheriff will be totally understanding about it.
9) A car wash lasts a few minutes, but ten or so minutes when treating wounds.
10) Flashbacks that conveniently happen in the middle of battle in no way hinder you from completing your mission, but will inspire you to new heights.
11) Government agencies use Google Maps.
12) Overweight cops make poor assassins.
13) Before you kill yourself, remember to tell you enemy everything he needs to know.
14) Wal-Mart has all the essentials to wage guerilla warfare.
15) The best way to find out if there is a burglar in your house is to shout "Hello?"
16) Old men in the woods are better sources of knowledge than Wikipedia.
17) If you're being hunted by every law-enforcment organization in the country, a great disguise is a cap, hooded jacket and Eagles coat. Leaning against walls and acting as suspicious as possible helps too.
18) Apparently Swagger was in that tub, too, when Biff Tannen watched "A Fistful Of Dollars".
19) A .22 rifle with water bottle makes a fine sniper's weapon.
20) Sometimes Wild West justice is what we really need.
2) The most wanted man in America can use sunglasses and a hat as an effective form of disguise and is freely able to buy napalm, no questions asked.
3) Pipe bombs have a 15 foot kill radius.
4) Nobody else can have the same tactical skills as a gunnery sergeant.
5) Evil US senators keep "1-800-HENCHMEN" on speed dial.
6) If your combat buddy talks about his girlfriend/wife, he will die.
7) Attack dogs are easily fooled into attacking their handlers.
8) If a man kills your dog and you bury him in a hill, the local sheriff will be totally understanding about it.
9) A car wash lasts a few minutes, but ten or so minutes when treating wounds.
10) Flashbacks that conveniently happen in the middle of battle in no way hinder you from completing your mission, but will inspire you to new heights.
11) Government agencies use Google Maps.
12) Overweight cops make poor assassins.
13) Before you kill yourself, remember to tell you enemy everything he needs to know.
14) Wal-Mart has all the essentials to wage guerilla warfare.
15) The best way to find out if there is a burglar in your house is to shout "Hello?"
16) Old men in the woods are better sources of knowledge than Wikipedia.
17) If you're being hunted by every law-enforcment organization in the country, a great disguise is a cap, hooded jacket and Eagles coat. Leaning against walls and acting as suspicious as possible helps too.
18) Apparently Swagger was in that tub, too, when Biff Tannen watched "A Fistful Of Dollars".
19) A .22 rifle with water bottle makes a fine sniper's weapon.
20) Sometimes Wild West justice is what we really need.
now we're using future Charge Rifles?
Why not play the gadget game and make one of them 7d12+3d12 pistols if we are gonna start with the future sillyness?
Well as I said, I took an example from a character I have, couse i play future for most time, but if that seems silly to you I won't mention that again...
Things I learned from ShooterShow1) With very little experience, I, too, can learn how to handle a Remington 700P in a matter of moments by shooting at watermelons.
2) The most wanted man in America can use sunglasses and a hat as an effective form of disguise and is freely able to buy napalm, no questions asked.
3) Pipe bombs have a 15 foot kill radius.
4) Nobody else can have the same tactical skills as a gunnery sergeant.
5) Evil US senators keep "1-800-HENCHMEN" on speed dial.
6) If your combat buddy talks about his girlfriend/wife, he will die.
7) Attack dogs are easily fooled into attacking their handlers.
8) If a man kills your dog and you bury him in a hill, the local sheriff will be totally understanding about it.
9) A car wash lasts a few minutes, but ten or so minutes when treating wounds.
10) Flashbacks that conveniently happen in the middle of battle in no way hinder you from completing your mission, but will inspire you to new heights.
11) Government agencies use Google Maps.
12) Overweight cops make poor assassins.
13) Before you kill yourself, remember to tell you enemy everything he needs to know.
14) Wal-Mart has all the essentials to wage guerilla warfare.
15) The best way to find out if there is a burglar in your house is to shout "Hello?"
16) Old men in the woods are better sources of knowledge than Wikipedia.
17) If you're being hunted by every law-enforcment organization in the country, a great disguise is a cap, hooded jacket and Eagles coat. Leaning against walls and acting as suspicious as possible helps too.
18) Apparently Swagger was in that tub, too, when Biff Tannen watched "A Fistful Of Dollars".
19) A .22 rifle with water bottle makes a fine sniper's weapon.
20) Sometimes Wild West justice is what we really need.
As for disguises I've seen an occasional movie with a good disguise.
I liked that movie, though... :P
About the disguises and, by extension, all the problems related to them: it's hollywood.God(higher power, or winter solstice) forbid they don't make the actor unrecognizable in a scene!
I can't recall a movie where characters actually had decent disguises...
I like the movie too. Doesn't mean it isn't full of parts to be made of, though ;).
So do you think gunslinger should have full BAB?
Yes.
I am heavy weapons guy, and this is my weapon.
I run around mimbly-bimbly like a kitten,
I am a 375lb 6'15" neanderthal chain-gunner
that had to take "Fast" and "Gunslinger" levels to carry a chaingun effectively.
... 'effectively' being to mean 'cant actually hit anything other than spraying areas',
but it is my lot in life it is what I must do
....... is what I must do, TO YOU!!! Bwaaahahaa
Cry some more! Bwahahahahaa! Cry some more!
a) Catch enemy unaware of you at range
b) Catch enemy unaware of you at range with an extra +6 tohit
which do you choose?
Last I played most people you ran into in a mission weren't of insane high level that required a +20bab to hit anything.
4RI and a DTap means a -10 on your Tohit
+20BAB = +10/+5/+0/-5
+14BAB = +4/-1/-6
+14BAB & Lightning = +2/+2/-3/-8
So, what do you have to roll to hit a Def15 guy with 4 DTap at 4 RI at +2/+2/-3/-8?
13, 13, 18, cant hit
Or, 20BAB guy in the same situation, 4 DTap at 4 RI at +10/+5/+0/-5
5, 10, 15, 20
You dont need BAB if your long range sniper is going to be hanging out within Knife distance of the target. However, if you go out to half your range you are really gonna need that BAB to actually hit the target.
Yes, ROLE playing is a great thing.
But in d20Modern your class name does not define what role you play. What part of sitting still for 3 days after a 5' /rnd crawl for 30miles makes the word FAST come to mind? Snipers are in no way considered 'fast'. The reason someone would take Fast is in the metagaming look at the feats you get & PrC reqs
..... well, if folks think its ok to have a slow sniper take "Fast" just for the feats & PrC reqs, then it is obviously ok for the slow sniper to take StrongMA just fopr the BAB.
you say Role playing,
what role do you want this guy to play?
If you want to take shots at guys that dont know you are there, from far away so they cant return fire if they do spot ya.... then take your shots from 400-500' away and let them suck on a -40 Spot modifier... which you can only really do if you have a high ToHit: 6 extra BAB means 3 extra RI away means another -25 or -30 on their Spot. You need ranks in Hide if you want to hide from guys close to you, you dont need ranks in hide to hide from guys with a -40 distance mod on their Spot rolls
Why do the range combatants need a full BAB? The only one who has it is the Martial Artist and if played right is just an unarmed melee. If your a sniper isn't the goal to catch your enemy off guard from a range? Sure if you want to munchkin the game go ahead and get a martial artist/strong sniper, it is just Roll playing, though if you want to Role play instead why not just follow the classes to what would be best for your character? Last I played most people you ran into in a mission weren't of insane high level that required a +20bab to hit anything.
We're not arguing that ranged characters need full BAB. Some of us are ****** off at the fact that an MA who just happens to fall back on guns (took PFP) is a better shot than, you know, a character who devotes himself to shooting. >_>
Just give your StrMA character the Firearmes Prof feat and DTap feat & a WW2 Garand.
Thats it.
He is now a super 500' sniper, much better than the Fast/Soldier/SniperPrC specialized build guy.
You of course could minmax it and give him Farshot or maybe some StartOcc Hide
... but that is just metagaming icing on the cake
The problem is not that we are minmax exploit building a Str/MA to be a better sniper than SniperPrC,
the problem is RAW makes the SniperPrC Build to be so bad at actually hitting targets... he is a worse shot than KungFu Joe
What part of sitting still for 3 days after a 5' /rnd crawl for 30miles makes the word FAST come to mind?
Well, Increased Speed isn't the only Talent Fast Heroes have. There's also Evasion, which comes in handy should the enemy carpet bomb the area you're in
.I love the "if you want your character to be good at something you're a munchkin" argument. Its the classic fallback of someone who has no other argument but won't give up.
A sniper with full BAB? Are you KA-RAZY
?
When given the options
a) Catch enemy unaware of you at range
b) Catch enemy unaware of you at range with an extra +6 tohit
which do you choose?
a) I'll only miss on a 1 anyway.
-DF
a) I'll only miss on a 1 anyway.
-DF
Really?
So, what do you have to roll to hit a Def15 guy with 4 DTap at 4 RI at +2/+2/-3/-8?
13, 13, 18, cant hit
Or, 20BAB guy in the same situation, 4 DTap at 4 RI at +10/+5/+0/-5
5, 10, 15, 20
You get +18 ToHit from stuff other than BAB?
Could you list all the +tohit you use to make that happen
cause I dont see the 4th Dtap at 4RI away (-10) against a Def15 guy
needing only a 2 rolled tohit?
I dont see even the 3rd DTap at 4RI vs Def15 needing only a 2 rolled tohit.
And this is not some freakish special attack you make once a week at great penalty,
this is a pretty standard attack for a sniping guy: plain Doubletap at half max range
It depends if you mean "sniper" as an activity or a title.
If you mean a long range guy that can actualy hit with 4 DTaps of a 2d10 gun:
High Dex & Int, Strong10 / MA10
DoubleTap, Farshot series
cc Stealth Skills
Use a Garand or a m14 with Bayonet.
Or forget the bayonet, and if anybody gets too close for the rifle
you can give an abject lesson to those poor souls in NGWDm10S10:
"Never Get Within Melee Distance of a MartialArtist10 / Strong10"
and as for the occupation either Military or criminal to get some the skills into your class list:P
Why not choose a more utilitarian occupation?