Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 gordjohnson Feb 09, 2009 12:39:04	i dont see any critical failure rules. is there anything anywhere that says anything about guns jamming?
#2 Master_Vega Feb 09, 2009 12:45:16	I don't know of any particular rules, but my main group's GM uses the (IMO) stupid houserule of natural 1 = jammed. No weapon jams 1 out of 20 times... except maybe that French gun they gave the US troops in WWI. >_> For fairness sake, if you want to include jamming at all, I guess you could make them roll a d100 after a natural 1, and on a natural 1 from that d100 their gun jams?
#3 layla_minogue Feb 09, 2009 13:12:32	Check the Weapons Locker book for optional jamming and unreliability rules.
#4 TheRealOrion Feb 09, 2009 13:14:44	If you wanted to do a "critical miss," then logically you'd have to roll a natural 1 and then "confirm" the miss. That reduces the odds to more like 2%, which is still not in-line with reality, but it's about as consistent as a critical hit. By the same reasoning, you could assign a greater or smaller critical miss range. But you're basically stuck with 1 out of 20, and then a secondary roll.
#5 backstabbist Feb 09, 2009 13:24:37	Lets see if I can slap something together... Natural1 Gun Failure Table d10 6+ No Failure 2-5 Misfire, Attack fails, correction as FreeAction 1 goto Jam Table Jam Table d10 5+ Attack Action correction required 2-4 Full Round correction required 1 goto Critical Failure Table Critical Failure d10 5+ 1d3 rounds Disassembly correction 2-4 Simple Tools req 1d3r Disassembly correction 1 goto Catastrophic Failure table Catastrophic Failure d10 4+ Parts required, 50% gun PDC, +50% time for rarity 2-3 Gun Unrepairable 1 goto Unfrickin Believable Failure table Unfrickin Believable Failure d10 4+ Detonation, user takes 1d6 damage & hand disabled for 1d3 days 2-3 Magazine Detonation, User takes 1d3 (1d4 rifle) per ammo in gun 1 goto Unreasonable Failure table Unreasonable Failure d10 7+ Explosion, for all ammo left "A": 2xA radius 1dA damage RefDC 10+A 2-6 Explosion, for all ammo left "A": 3xA radius 2dA damage RefDC 15+A 1 Implosion, use random entry from Nukes For All Seasons thread
#6 Master_Vega Feb 09, 2009 15:05:14	I like that you can accidentally end a campaign with backstabbist's critical failure table. :P Who knew some jerk put plutonium on the charge, and/or accidentally replaced my normal shotgun shell with a nuke-shell? Drat the luck!
#7 TheRealOrion Feb 09, 2009 15:07:14	That's a fairly complicated progression, from one table to another. Why not load them all into a percenage table and then have one secondary roll on that one to get 1:10,000? (1% of 1%)
#8 backstabbist Feb 09, 2009 15:36:19	Its the drama of anticipation. If you blew a 5d10 roll, thats it... its done. But if you blow a roll, and then 2 more you really start to sweat over the next roll OMG My Luck Sux! NoNoNONONONO.... you are gonna hem & haw over that last roll that, and I figured nobody would actually use my joke jam tables so we could have some fun with them
#9 DwarfFighter Feb 09, 2009 16:07:31	While quality weapons of the kind a PC is likely to use tend to be unlikely to jam, player characters tend to be the at the center of dramatic situations where a critical failure will have the greatest effect. A one-in-twenty chance of having one's gun jam may not be representative of real statistics but it may never-the-less be dramatically appropriate. You could try it out and see if you like the effect. In one way it favours the PCs because the NPCs are likely to be making a lot more attack rolls against them and will experience critical failures more often. On the other hand, some players don't like to be subject to extraordinary failures. -DF
#10 TheRealOrion Feb 09, 2009 17:08:03	If you do that on every natural 1, then you should also have critical hits on every natural 20. It's only fair.
#11 nodaisho Feb 09, 2009 20:56:38	Needing a natural one after a natural one would mean a 1 in 400 chance, if I have done my math right. How is that for a realistic amount of jamming? What is the guideline for how many rounds to put through without a failure before trusting the gun for self defense? Requiring 3 natural ones in a row would mean 1 in 8000, two natural ones and a 10 or less would be 1 in 800, two natural ones and a 5 or less would be 1 in 1600. You could do a coin toss or a 1d4 for the 10 or less and 5 or less, as well.
#12 narukagami Feb 09, 2009 21:43:23	You should easily be able to run a few thousand rounds through a decent gun before it starts to become unreliable. The problem I have with this "natural 1 PUNISHMENT" bullcrap is how it punishes characters for getting better at combat. More attacks per round = more chances of rolling a 1. I don't see how its logical or even fun for a 15th level character to risk some kind of critical fumble crap (be it drop a weapon or gun jams) and end up looking like a fool more often than the 1st level rookie. You shouldn't be punishing your players for leveling.
#13 TheRealOrion Feb 09, 2009 23:30:49	I'm not sure how you're translating this into "punishment," but it's fascinating how that word comes out when people don't like a rule that's not in the PC's favour. I'm not saying you're wrong (it's not a rule I'd put into my games), but "punishment"? It's a little dramatic, don't you think? Personally, having now played a few games with Paizo's critical fumble deck, I'm not a fan. I didn't sign up for this game to look like one of the Keystone Cops. I was just suggesting a way to make it fair. A natural 1 by itself is ridiculous enough, but compared to the way that critical hits are resolved, it's just plain unfair.
#14 backstabbist Feb 10, 2009 1:05:53	More frequent jamming for higher level guys? Lets look at the Natural1 Jam rule applied to different level guys: 1st level, 1 attack per round, 5% of shots jam 16th level, 4 attacks per round, 5% of shots jam The odds of jamming are fixed, If you take 20 shots there are 20 5% chances. That is independant of the 1st level guy taking those 20 shots in one day while the 16th level guy could take all week to eventutually need to fire that 20th shot at something. Does it kinda favor the HIgh Level guy? Sure. 1st level guy will roll 20 ToHits with his m14, and that is 20 5% chances to Jam. 16th level guy will roll 4 ToHits with his BurstFire M14, that is only 4 5% chances for the same 20 ammo If you guys want to keep it kinder than 5% of shots detonate the magazine, just have a big slice of the Natural1 rolls result in "Misfire, corrected as Free Action", so there is no detriment. That way some Natural1 are not actually bad, but a small slice of them waste some time, and a miniscule spec of those Natural1's convert the party to a vapor cloud the size of Nebraska... or not, whatever I'm cool.
#15 shinobi_guyver Feb 10, 2009 1:19:52	If you guys want to keep it kinder than 5% of shots detonate the magazine, just have a big slice of the Natural1 rolls result in "Misfire, corrected as Free Action", so there is no detriment. That way some Natural1 are not actually bad, but a small slice of them waste some time, and a miniscule spec of those Natural1's convert the party to a vapor cloud the size of Nebraska... or not, whatever I'm cool. That'd be an interesting take on the critical 1 everyone seems so worried about. Only instead of a free action, why not make it a minor action to correct a jammed gun? That way there is still an obvious effect that occurs from rolling poorly but it's not a game-ender. In my old group, the DM would have fun with a critical fumble. One incident had the guy's character trip and shoot his toe off. Nothing game breaking, but still funny to hear.
#16 backstabbist Feb 10, 2009 2:13:00	Depending on how Cinematic your game is You could have a Natural1 require the shooter to say some witty quip about the Misfire to avoid having it develope into a Action spent clearing the jam. Yo momma must be Medusa, one look and you petrified my gun. That would let the guy off the hook for the bad roll. <1...click> Yo momma so fat... you... uh.. she made my gun jam See, now that would jam up the gun so bad you might as well pawn it as a paperweight and buy a new one
#17 narukagami Feb 10, 2009 8:37:46	I'm not sure how you're translating this into "punishment," but it's fascinating how that word comes out when people don't like a rule that's not in the PC's favour. I'm not saying you're wrong (it's not a rule I'd put into my games), but "punishment"? It's a little dramatic, don't you think? You answered your own question: Personally, having now played a few games with Paizo's critical fumble deck, I'm not a fan. I didn't sign up for this game to look like one of the Keystone Cops. I was just suggesting a way to make it fair. A natural 1 by itself is ridiculous enough, but compared to the way that critical hits are resolved, it's just plain unfair. Lets look at the Natural1 Jam rule applied to different level guys: 1st level, 1 attack per round, 5% of shots jam 16th level, 4 attacks per round, 5% of shots jam Your math is wrong. The 1st level guy is making 1 roll per round with a 5% chance to jam. The 15th level guy is making 4 rolls a round with a 5% chance to miss per roll. 4x 5% chances vs 1x 5% chances, how is that equal at all?
#18 TheRealOrion Feb 10, 2009 9:49:03	You answered your own question: Actually, my question was "That's a little dramatic, don't you think?" My objection is to the word "punishment." It implies some kind of organised conspiracy to make your life worse, going out of their way to make something unpleasant happen to you because you have the gall rise in levels. That's clearly not the case. It's just a dumb rule that no one really thought through. There's a big difference between maliciousness and thoughtlessness. If we assign malicious intent, even implicitly or unconsciously, to the GM/DM, then we're going to spend all our time angry and focused on ourselves. If we recognise it as an honest mistake, we can try to help correct it, in good-faith. The statement "You're punishing me for rising in levels" is almost impossible to address, as a GM. The statement "This rule is unfair/inconsistent/not enhancing my fun" is something the whole table can actually address.
#19 backstabbist Feb 10, 2009 11:42:52	Lets look at the Natural1 Jam rule applied to different level guys: 1st level, 1 attack per round, 5% of shots jam 16th level, 4 attacks per round, 5% of shots jam Your math is wrong. The 1st level guy is making 1 roll per round with a 5% chance to jam. The 15th level guy is making 4 rolls a round with a 5% chance to miss per roll. 4x 5% chances vs 1x 5% chances, how is that equal at all? On Tuesday the 1st level guy shoots his gun 10 times. Wednesday the 16th level guy shoots his gun 10 times. Which is more likely to have a jam? There are 4 fish in a barrel to be shot. 1st level guy fires 4 shots to kill 4 fish... what are the odds of jamming during the shooting? 16th level guy fires 4 shots to kill 4 fish... what are the odds of jamming during the shooting? Noob: "My gun jams about once for every 20 times I shoot" Veteran: "Me too" There are 4 badguys to fight, Which is more likely to jam while shooting them: The 4x 5% Noob, or the 4x 5% Vet? Do not confuse a gun that is shot once a day with a 50% jam chance, with a gun that is shot 4times a round with a 5% jam chance, to think the 5% jams more frequently than the 50%. You just get to that same frequency of jams more rapidly. To think there should be a jam based on time passage rather than shots fired is silly. You will end up with some freakish rule that will make no sense based on Jams Per Time 1% JamChance per round, regardless of # shots fired "crud, my gun just jammed itself while I was crawling past the guard tower" "Yeah, I was negotiating with the witness when mine jammed." "Ha!, Mine jammed 25 times last night while I was sleeping" "Stop your whining guys, I can now run 80rnds thru the m16 with just 2 Jam Chances
#20 TheRealOrion Feb 10, 2009 12:42:38	Well okay, here's a question: when guns do, occasionally, jam (in the real world), what causes it? You say it mostly happens to guns that are old and/or not cared for. So it literally just crud building up in the parts? Does it have anything to do with over-heating? If jamming rules could be made that address the ways that guns actually misfire/jam, then that could possibly be more fun than "I rolled a 1 three times in a row." Just a thought.
#21 backstabbist Feb 10, 2009 13:18:14	Got to keep in mind that we are talking about two different things in one here. Misfires & Jams. However, Jams can be as simple as a stovepipe Failure To Eject jam Short cycles of both misfire and feedjam dirty gun feed jams Magazine failure doublefeed Extraction Failure jam etc Buddy of mine had a new pristine match grade M1A that was a jam monster. The company told him to stop using junk surplus ammo in a Match chamber. Problem went away with quality ammo. Which taps the old addage of striking a balance between tight parts for accuracy and loose parts for reliability. Some failures to fire easy to clear with a swipe of the palm or just rack the slide for a new round. But some need to rod the bore or pry a stuck shell from the chamber with a salad fork Use the coarseness of d20 to your advantage. When a Natural1 comes up for Gun Malfunction, have a simple d10 table with high likelihood of just a simple no lost time misfire and progressively less likely and more time wasting results 1 Critical Jam, 1d6-4 (min1) rounds to clear 2-3 Feed Jam, MEA to clear 4-6 Stovepipe, Attack Action to clear 7+ Misfire, cleared by cycling the action... no time lost
#22 johannixx Feb 10, 2009 23:02:50	Well okay, here's a question: when guns do, occasionally, jam (in the real world), what causes it? You say it mostly happens to guns that are old and/or not cared for. So it literally just crud building up in the parts? Does it have anything to do with over-heating? If jamming rules could be made that address the ways that guns actually misfire/jam, then that could possibly be more fun than "I rolled a 1 three times in a row." Just a thought. Lots of things will cause a malfunction. Ammo-related: Bad primer (click, no bang) Hard primer, light strike (click, no bang) Bad powder charge (click, no bang) Burr on the bullet itself (failure to feed, failure to go into battery) Squib charge (primer detonates, underpowered powder charge leaves bullet lodged in barrel) Squib charge + second shot (full-power second shot fires second bullet into first bullet still stuck in the barrel, with anything from a bulged barrel to a fragmented barrel) The first three can be remedied with a tap-rack-assess-bang drill, or just pulling the trigger again on a revolver. Failures to feed can often be remedied the same way. Squibs require a rod to drive the bullet out of the barrel, not something you want to do in combat. Firing a second shot after a squib will render your gun defunct, and may or may not hurt you. Magazine-related: Deformed feed lips: Failure to feed (nosedive, or perhaps a double feed) Weak magazine spring: Failure to feed (bolt-over-base failure) Dented magazine tube: Failure to feed (rounds stuck in magazine) Sand/dirt/gunk in magazine: Failure to feed (bolt-over-base failure) Bad follower: Failure to lock back on an empty magazine, failure to feed. Most of these will render a self-loading weapon inoperable, except by manual cycling of the action. Some prevent feeding of any ammunition until the situation is resolved. Weapon-related: Poor chamber geometry: Dangerous pressures, failure to extract, failure to feed Poor extractor geometry and/or extractor tension: Failure to extract, double-feeds, failure to go into battery, failure to feed. Insufficient lubrication: Failure to feed, failure to go into battery, failure to extract Excessive fouling: Failure to feed, failure to go into battery, failure to extract, failure to fire Damage to components: Failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to fire, failure to cycle Worn recoil/action/operating springs: Failure to feed, failure to go into battery Excessively worn components: Take a wild guess. I've seen a lot of malfunctions, and most of them are due to bad magazines, bad designs, bad manufacturing tolerances, bad gunsmithing, bad maintenance or bad ammo. I've seen M4s jam from lack of lubricant, AKs jammed from excessive fouling, 1911s jam from too much tension on the extractor, a Remington 870 double-feed from the magazine because the shell stops were worn out, and a Beretta 92 that broke a trigger return spring and needed the trigger to be manually flipped forward to re-engage the sear after each shot. I've seen a bad round stick in the barrel of a Mosin Nagant rifle and need to be pounded out with a cleaning rod and a hammer. I've seen a Glock 23 blow up in a shooter's hand because of a combination of factors that individually wouldn't have caused a problem. Guns are just complicated, and anything complicated can screw up. Even simple guns like an AK will jam. Even revolvers will jam. I've seen STENs jam repeatedly because the feed lips and springs of the magazines were crap.
#23 TheRealOrion Feb 10, 2009 23:11:01	So I'm getting that "real-world" jamming is probably not a great way to go. Just a percentage change and some flavour text will do the job. That said, some flavour text like the above could be quite useful. "You have a two-bullet jam because of a bag magazine spring" is a lot more dramatic than "You have a jam. Spend a standard action to clear it." So thanks for that!
#24 backstabbist Feb 11, 2009 11:04:57	I would watch out for being too detailed on the Failures, cause folks will focus on their particular gun features to get out from the situation. I am still suggesting a less specific text, but like you said... not so super bland that you bore folks with 'You have a MEA Clear jam' umm, lets say we want 3 tiers of pain, plus the No Problem tier, for Natural1: Misfire: The hammer fell, but no bang. Cycle the gun to correct without spending any actions Ejection Failure: There is a stovepipe or other case blockage, Attack Action to correct Feed Jam: Either a doublefeed or failure to feed, MEA to correct Extraction Failure: 1d6-4 (min1) rounds to pull stuck case from chamber by not being very specific, they cant try to specificly weasle out of it. hmmm We could make the corrections be a BAB check, pass and it takes XXX time, fail is longer
#25 johannixx Feb 11, 2009 22:28:25	I agree, specifics probably aren't supportable in Modern. Most issues are cleared by a tap-rack-bang drill, which should be a move-equivalent action for most people. Anything worse than that, and I'm going for a secondary weapon. At a training class a few years ago, we demonstrated this. At first, we arranged spent casings in the chamber. Draw, click, tap-rack-bang. Then repeat the setup, draw, click, ditch pistol and draw backup gun. Tap-rack-bang was generally faster than drawing a well-concealed backup piece from a pocket or ankle holster. Then we set up a true double-feed, something that requires stripping the magazine and repeated slide cycling to fix. Ditching the primary and going to a backup gun shaved 3-6 seconds off the timer, on average. That's a lifetime in a firefight. So I'd say, do three stages of malfunctions. On a natural 1, roll to confirm a critical fumble. On a natural 2, 3 or 4, you get a simple malfunction that can be cleared with a MEA (unless it's a revolver, in which case you simply lose the shot, and continue firing). On a natural 1, you get a serious malf, and have to re-roll the confirmation. On a natural 1-4 of the re-roll, you get a broken gun that requires serious repair and spare parts. Anything higher just means it's a 1-round action to get the weapon back in the fight. Of course, you may not be able to immediately diagnose the issue. A trained shooter will immediately go for a tap-rack-bang drill, and if that fails, will transition to a secondary weapon. Deal with the down weapon once the fight's over.
#26 nodaisho Feb 13, 2009 0:28:20	If you were worried about more experienced people seeming to get jams all the time, you could have it so that only the first attack in a round could cause a jam. It isn't realistic, but then again, by the natural 1 = jam rules, you get a 1 in 20 chance of jamming, unless you are blazing away with constant auto-fire, in which case you have a 1 in 200 chance. Perhaps a greater chance of jamming the longer you have been going without cleaning it? Assume that it is cleaned during downtime, before intended missions, but you have to specifically say you are cleaning it if you are going to do it during a few clear moments between battles. Maybe a specific amount of rounds, and figure out when it is you get there, or when you get attacked, and how long it will take to put it back together. Because if you hear warning from your scout when you have just put the upper receiver back together, you just have to slap it back together, put the pins in, and load the gun before you are back in business, but if you are currently detail-cleaning the BCG or something (never cleaned an AR, myself), you are better off sticking with your pistol, or going to help feed the gunner. Just throwing that idea out there, so your gun is more likely to jam up if it hasn't been cleaned for a while, rather than having the same chance of jamming when you have just finished lubing it up and finished putting it back together as when you have been firing off enough rounds that the barrel is glowing red and the snow on the ledge you have been using for support has been melted by the handguards, with a 3 foot section to your right cleared by your brass.