Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Master_Vega Jan 25, 2009 11:38:34	So I'm making a new melee engine for D20Modern/D&D with the intent of making melee combat (and possibly ranged eventually, though I'm not sure how) more entertaining for everyone involved. I also intend to use a non-d20 version of this mechanic for a personal project I might want to publish someday, so I can't post this directly onto the boards. I can, however, give you guys a link. So here's Hand 2 Hand. Keep in mind that it's still in development, and just about everything in there isn't concrete yet. Any comments, complaints, constructive criticism, etc... would be appreciated. Thanks for reading.
#2 nclanceman Jan 26, 2009 8:15:40	Why does the Blocking Pool start at zero? It would seem like it'd start higher and that reaching zero would be time to panic. Otherwise, it just looks like people go into varying amounts of BP debt over the course of the fight.
#3 iron_stomach Jan 26, 2009 8:50:42	so would feats like combat martial arts or brawl increase your blocking points, or are there specific feats that you plan to make to determine the amount of BP?
#4 Master_Vega Jan 26, 2009 10:47:41	Thanks for the question. Combat Martial Arts under this system allows unarmed attacks to deal lethal damage, which makes things less brutal when the character draws an AoO for reducing their BP to low. I'm not sure if I'll add any other effects to the feat, though. I'm going to have to re-work brawl. I might actually make it its own martial art [which doesn't make much sense], or devote it to granting extra BP. I was intending to make combo-feats that allowed a character to start out at a higher BP, but also do something else. Another feat I was intending to make is one that allows a faster regeneration of BP for sacrificing an action (perhaps making a concentration check or a more universal roll). I'll get to work on those.
#5 iron_stomach Jan 26, 2009 11:22:17	what about things like defensive martial arts? or are the only feats that affect BP going to be homemade?
#6 Master_Vega Jan 26, 2009 11:43:58	NCLanceman - I'm getting really good at missing people's replies. Sorry about that. :P As for why it starts at zero, I guess it's because I didn't plan on having zero BP have any significance. I pictured it more like a tennis game after both players get past 30. It becomes something like +Add for the guy who has higher BP, and -Add for the guy with lower... or deuce when the scores are even. I suppose everyone could start at something like 10+whatever from feats (and possibly the bonus from their highest physical stat), and we could figure out some way for the crap to hit the fan at 0 and below. Iron_Stomach - I'm actually starting on the feats right now. One thing I've considered - and only thought of a few minutes ago - is having all martial arts and weapon style feats grant 1BP. Defensive Martial Arts does need some love, though. I'll try and figure out something. Anyhow, I added some feats for BP recovery, and modified toughness.
#7 TheRealOrion Jan 26, 2009 13:01:48	So your concept is that both parties start at 0 and then gain BP over the course of the fight, and as soon as your opponent has fewer BP than you, you get attacks of opportunity. But then letting loose on those AO's means that you'll lose BP again. That's the dynamic you envision? You also mention other factors that might raise your default BP. Could you tell us more about those?
#8 Master_Vega Jan 26, 2009 13:31:46	I haven't gotten all of this hammered out, though with the confusion surrounding the starting point of zero (a few others I've shown this to IRL found it confusing as well), I may change the ruleset to start everyone's starting BP by 10+highest physical modifier... and possibly + # of Martial Arts/Weapon Style feats. The original idea was to have feats devoted solely to increasing the starting BP of a character, and feats that increased it as a side-effect. I'm starting to lean toward the idea above, and have going below zero BP have some nasty side-effects... I'm just not sure what. I suppose fort saves vs fatigue, and then exhaustion might do. On your comment about losing BP to an attack of opportunity: technically, you could simply jab at the guy, and then you wouldn't lose BP. It's just that the heavier-hitting and sometimes more worth-while stuff takes more time to complete, and therefore takes BP to execute. One flaw I'm already seeing in this system, unless you want groups of 2+ to kick the crap out of individual combatants, is that groups will always end up with the higher BP. I suppose I could fix this by creating feats for fighting multiple combatants (maybe I'll tack that onto brawler), but does anyone else have a suggestion?
#9 TheRealOrion Jan 26, 2009 14:12:58	Honestly, I'm still kind of unclear on what the point of it all is. I don't say that to imply that I think it's bad, just that I don't understand. Are you essentially trying to layer another bit of complexity on top of hand-to-hand fights? If so, then I don't think I'd be interested (the mechanics are plenty complicated enough as it is), but I can see the appeal if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty. As for starting at 0 or starting at 10+whatever, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. It's a fluid number that going to go up and down over the course of a fight, right? So the only problem with starting at 0 is that some people find working with negative numbers to be less easy than positive numbers. Other than that, it's basically the same, I think.
#10 Master_Vega Jan 26, 2009 14:24:00	Part of the project is to add another layer of complexity to melee, kind of like how 4E or ToB does it, but less magical/vancian-y (SP?) as the case may be... and with a realistic explanation of why Joe-bob the strong hero can't spam his most powerful moves (without consequences). It's made for people who dislike that a punch and a kick are the same mechanically, and for people who are tired of "Okay, so I've closed with the guy? I'm going to attack..." and then next turn "I'm going to attack again," repeating without any really exciting variation. Gunfighting, at least with my group, doesn't have this problem as cover and location add depth to combat. But once melee guys close, they have so few tricks that it gets boring (at least for us) very quickly. Oh, another use for this system is to, hopefully, combine grappling into the same system as melee combat. That way you don't have a five stage process everyone has to remember. Instead, each player has a set of moves you can perform in a grapple, and as soon as they have enough BP over the enemy, they can try to choke him out with a special move. I guess it's not simplifying it so much as unifying it with melee combat.
#11 AnimeSniper Jan 26, 2009 17:34:55	How about if the character can access forms of various combart styles by allowing access to them if the character trains or the GM says after looking over character background allow for a fighting style i.e. the PC, an orphan, grew up in a bad neighborhood/starport sector and had to learn to fight with his hands and improvised weapons... this gives the PC say a Street Brawl style with the Improvised Weapons i.e. piece of Plas-steel with tape wrapped around for a handle knife... or the player expends build points to select a combat style I have an Alterntiy PDF that a poster at the site converted from Blood & FIsts to fit the Alternity game system if you would like to see it master Vega for ideas your Hand 2 Hand system... drop me your e-mail in a PM if you are EDIT I also have the D20 Martial Arts PDF if you would like it!
#12 TheRealOrion Jan 26, 2009 22:53:21	It's made for people who dislike that a punch and a kick are the same mechanically, and for people who are tired of "Okay, so I've closed with the guy? I'm going to attack..." and then next turn "I'm going to attack again," repeating without any really exciting variation. Ah, okay. Personally, I find flavour text does that job just fine. I'm quite happy for the mechanics to be relatively simple: roll to hit, hit!, roll for damage, 15! "I step inside his reach and tie up his left hand with a joint-lock and then deliver a low jab to his stomach, just below the solar-plexus. He almost crumples from pain as I spring back to a safe distance."
#13 Master_Vega Jan 27, 2009 0:53:55	How about if the character can access forms of various combart styles by allowing access to them if the character trains or the GM says after looking over character background allow for a fighting style i.e. the PC, an orphan, grew up in a bad neighborhood/starport sector and had to learn to fight with his hands and improvised weapons... this gives the PC say a Street Brawl style with the Improvised Weapons i.e. piece of Plas-steel with tape wrapped around for a handle knife... or the player expends build points to select a combat style That'd be up to the GM. Personally, I prefer that characters are statted to reflect their backgrounds instead of gaining boons off of their background. If he's level three, he's not going to gain stuff he'll have by level four by writing a background. My entire group of power/RP-gamers would have uber-characters if I allowed background to affect their stats. :P However, I may make up an unorthodox brawler moveset to explain those kinds of characters. I have an Alterntiy PDF that a poster at the site converted from Blood & FIsts to fit the Alternity game system if you would like to see it master Vega for ideas your Hand 2 Hand system... drop me your e-mail in a PM if you are EDIT I also have the D20 Martial Arts PDF if you would like it! I'm actually not very familiar with Alternity. Is the PDF open source? Same question about the MA PDF. Thanks for the ideas and reply. If the PDFs are open source, I'd like to look at them. TheRealOrion - Yeah, that works for some people. Others, like me, enjoy having a bit more variety in our crunch so that we can actually decide what our characters try to do beforehand, rather than after the roll.
#14 AnimeSniper Jan 27, 2009 15:36:52	The MA PDF has the OGL on it at the end and so does the Alternity Martial Arts one I believe... the latter is in their Resources page with a lot of other stuff The Alternity PDF one has no OGL or other type of disclaimer stating such...
#15 iron_stomach Feb 03, 2009 15:27:21	I have a suggestion for your starting BP. Maybe you could make it equal to the characters' wisdom bonus or maybe give a bonus to BP for having so many ranks in spot or listen to reflect a character's awareness? just a suggestion but it could work.
#16 TheRealOrion Feb 03, 2009 17:05:07	I wouldn't suggest using an ability score/bonus as starting BP actually. It'll just allow certain classes to double-dip. Make it a class bonus, like BA. Hell, make it equal to your highest Base Attack or something exceedingly simple like that.