Robot armor adds to Defense
Mecha armor adds to Defense, Structure determines Hardness
Starship armor adds to Hardness, SubType determines Defense
Why? I have some rules regarding armor used on people that include hardness.
I had discussed with my players regarding the equipment bonus to defense vs. hardness to armor that their characters can wear. Having some hardness on armor worn by a character I think makes for more realistic defense.
Defense: Your ability to avoid damage
Hardness: Your ability to absorb damage
So why not have hardness for people? Also I am confused as to why armor for mecha adds to defense while armor on starships adds to hardness..why the cross over.
In looking over the d20 rules and how they use armor, there are some questions I have..
Robot armor adds to Defense
Mecha armor adds to Defense, Structure determines Hardness
Starship armor adds to Hardness, SubType determines Defense
Why? I have some rules regarding armor used on people that include hardness.
I had discussed with my players regarding the equipment bonus to defense vs. hardness to armor that their characters can wear. Having some hardness on armor worn by a character I think makes for more realistic defense.
Unless the PC's salvage a Mecha's Autocannon arm, jerry-rig a fire control box, and goodbye lead tank!
Defense: Your ability to avoid damage
Hardness: Your ability to absorb damage
So why not have hardness for people? Also I am confused as to why armor for mecha adds to defense while armor on starships adds to hardness..why the cross over.
My own veiw is this; Hardness not only absorbs but will deflect smaller caliber munitions, i.e. 9mm against a tank armor/etc, and Defense can asborb damage i.e. Kevlar but only to a certain caliber round unless augmented with steel pates/etc.
but Mecha get their hardness from their frames that you pick when you build them..
Yet starships get hardness from their armor..
Seems to me a conflict...nothing new from the d20 rules. The more I write for it the more mixed up it seems to become. Especially when you compare things between the human/mecha/starship size ranges.
So I can understand why they dont put hardness on people..cuz they want them to be squishy...
but Mecha get their hardness from their frames that you pick when you build them..Me thinks that WOTC writers were going for the honey comb/lattice effect or they never read a Mecha based book/TV show. Honey comb/lattice type framework tend to deflect explosions away from the interior... I think... Also the stronger the frame the less likely your mecha collapses under its own weight!
Yet starships get hardness from their armor..Of course my hardness/defensive standpoint view on this is... you don't want your crew to be suddenly vaccuumed out into space because the enemy hit you with a higher caliber weapon?
Seems to me a conflict...nothing new from the d20 rules. The more I write for it the more mixed up it seems to become. Especially when you compare things between the human/mecha/starship size ranges.
Follow along the logical path of current body armor; police wear light/medium padded armor to withstand smaller munitions, while SWAT/Military wear heavier with steel plates for higher caliber rounds and Bomb Disposal guys wear the heaviest of all... BD's can't run when they FUBAR the disarm but merely hope that bulky armor they wear saves them?
Hardness also entails the designer are hoping the attacking round squashes or deflects when it hits the tank... but like the SABOT round of M1 Abrahms if it can pierce the hardness then the crew still dies!
My current mindtrack...sorry if I am sounding offensive?
People use Damage Reduction (Kevlar, Flak Jackets, even Leather jackets...). They are thus... 'squishy'... (i.e. Damage Reduction doesn't apply to fire, acid, etc...).
Stuff use Hardness (plates of armour, ceramic power armour, etc...). Exception to this is futuristic battle armour (which might also absorb fire, acid, etc...), which might use Hardness instead of (or in conjunction with) Damage Reduction.
Defense only represents your ability to get out of the way. So a Kevlar vest does not help at all.
To bring an example of the f*cked up system used now, a character in bomb disposal suit (say, Defense +14?), who accidentally detonates a bomb only gets to make a reflex save to avoid damage (and remember, a BombDisposalSuit isn't Light Armour - Evasion doesn't work). His armour won't help him the least. Even though it was built to save his life from exactly such an attack.
Weapon Penetration Value
Weapons have a penetration value. All weapons. CR 5 pistol cartridges should have around 0, while intermediate rounds have 1, and rifle round have 2. Heavier weapons will have higher Pen.
AntiTank weapons or ArmourPiercing rounds will ignore more Damage Reduction/Hardness.
AntiTank weapons or ArmourPiercing rounds will ignore more Damage Reduction/Hardness.
My take on this.
People use Damage Reduction (Kevlar, Flak Jackets, even Leather jackets...). They are thus... 'squishy'... (i.e. Damage Reduction doesn't apply to fire, acid, etc...).
Stuff use Hardness (plates of armour, ceramic power armour, etc...). Exception to this is futuristic battle armour (which might also absorb fire, acid, etc...), which might use Hardness instead of (or in conjunction with) Damage Reduction.
Defense only represents your ability to get out of the way. So a Kevlar vest does not help at all.
To bring an example of the f*cked up system used now, a character in bomb disposal suit (say, Defense +14?), who accidentally detonates a bomb only gets to make a reflex save to avoid damage (and remember, a BombDisposalSuit isn't Light Armour - Evasion doesn't work). His armour won't help him the least. Even though it was built to save his life from exactly such an attack.Weapon Penetration ValueWeapons have a penetration value. All weapons. CR 5 pistol cartridges should have around 0, while intermediate rounds have 1, and rifle round have 2. Heavier weapons will have higher Pen.
AntiTank weapons or ArmourPiercing rounds will ignore more Damage Reduction/Hardness.
It seems you contradict yourself in your statements though. You agree with me that wearing armour should reduce damage taken (and thus doesn't work as a Defense bonus - since Area effects bypass Defense), yet you state that Kevlar should grant a bonus to Defense.
Also, what do you mean by Kevlar being Light Armour?
I was only using that as an example in name..I know nothing about Kevlar personally.
You are right I am contradicting myself because the d20 rules do as well! So Im trying to sort out a clarification.
I think its important to think of Defense as not only the ability to avoid being hit, but also the fact that you are being hit but the armor is preventing it. This takes the form of your Equipment bonus vs a d20 attack roll.
Here is an example: Human Soldier Defense: 10 + armor (Equipment bonus 4) = Defense 14
An attack roll is made and its 13. Thats a MISS in the game, but I like to explain to my players that since its over 10, it actually hit them but their armor shrugged it off (or a glancing blow).
So an actual HIT (a roll of 18 for example), would get through that armor and hurt.
I believe thats fine for crap armor like leather or chain or primitive stuff. But for modern armors designed to prevent ballistic penetration that dosn't fly with me. As this armor is designed to SOAK up the bullet and reduce its impact on the wearer. You still get hit, but you dont suffer as much damage. Even bullet-proof vests can cause cracked ribs..this is an example.
So, what I'm confused is why dosn't all armor provide hardness? Any modern armor would be designed to prevent ballstic damage and would be designed to soak some of it. Therefore, it should have a hardness factor.
Yet the d20 SRD dosn't even touch this on the human scale...
So assuming a regular 'human' soldier. Assuming he has Dex 14 and +2 Class Defense bonus, he has Defense 14 (+2 Dex, +2 ClassDefense). An attack roll of 13- is a miss, but an attack roll of 14+ is a hit.
IF he is wearing armour, that armour should then provide Damage Reduction against the attack. Assuming he's wearing a Light Undercover Kevlar vest and get's hit by a 7.62Nato. That's not gonna help much, so assuming the 7.62Nato has a Penetration value of 2, and the Undercover Kevlar vest grants DR 4. Then, the UndercoverKevlarVest reduces the damage taken by 2 against that attack. If he gets hit by a 88mm Flak, the UndercoverVest won't help him at all, yet in d20 Modern (where Armour grants a bonus to Defense), the Undercover Vest would 'soak' up the 88mm Flak round on a 'miss' (assuming an attack roll of 13).
The Defense system in d20 Modern works on small scale. As soon as you start shooting with rifle rounds and larger, the system breaks apart.
"So, what? My leather jacket deflected or absorbed the tank shell?"
Hell no! A leather jacket vs. tank shell should result in Leather Jacket: 0, Tank Shell: Win!...
Armour doesn't provide Hardness, because most modern armour wouldn't help against Fire, Acid, etc... Thus, it can provide Damage Reduction (which only protects against Melee or Ranged attacks - normally Piercing, Bludgeoning, Slashing and Ballistic), as a lot of realism-minded players use.
A Tank has hardness because it doesn't really matter what you attack it with, it's armour is gonna protect it. A Kevlar vest vs. a flamethrower = Kevlar vest: 0, Flamethrower: Win!...
As I've stated above, Hardness is for stuff or very futuristic armour, and Damage Reduction is for personal armour (kevlar etc...).
Defense should ONLY represent the character's ability to avoid damage by not getting hit.
Recap:
Defense (the value that needs to be beaten to hit) - dodging attacks
Damage Reduction (personel with armour) - soaking up attacks
Hardness (vehicles, stuff, etc...) - soaking up anything
It seems reasonable to me that armor could provide both Defense and damage reduction.
so what to do? reduce the defense values and assign a DR to each piece of armor? (I was thinking maybe assign half the defense value as DR)
I believe equipment bonus reflects the armors ability to deflect damage.
I believe that Hardness reflects the armors ability to absorb damage.
Therefore, it should have both. I'd keep the existing equipment bonus but add a very small amount of hardness ...like Hardness 1-5 max. for all basic armor types ranging form light to heavy.
Beyond that the players would have to buy into advanced armor upgrades which would be costly due to the customization they are requesting but possible!
To me, thats how it boils down. But there are other schools of thought, specifically as to how armor can provide its "equipment" bonus to defense at all since it dosn't help the character avoid damage.
Does that make sense cause it popped into my head
?And for the last time, how does Kevlar absorb Fire? It doesn't, and thus shouldn't have Hardness. Hardness is for hard stuff, not soft stuff like modern body armour.
How does armor deflect, well say you are near something that explodes and there is shrapnel. Armor would keep that from hurting you. Its not absorbed..but its deflected. Thats the kind of lack of penetration that equipment bonus reflects. Other than that, I dont know what equipment bonus means or does.
Hard stuff, soft stuff I dont care what it is...if it absorbs a bullet it should be hardness value. If it somehow helps you from getting shot and not specifically absorbing damage it should be equipment bonus to defense.
How else do you do it? The SRD dosnt give ANY hardness. Is that broken?
Look up the Hardness rules, will ya. There is a DIFFERENCE between Hardness and Damage Reduction.
Hardness absorbs any damage (falling, fire, cold, acid, ballistic, bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, etc...).
Damage Reduction absorbs damage from melee or ranged weapons (not including energy or 'special' damage).
Thus, since a Kevlar Vest protects against direct attacks, but not fire, acid etc... (not any better than a thick jacket, that is), it should grant Damage Reduction.
--
Assuming your character is carrying a bazooka. Assuming your character fires his bazooka at a guy wearing a Kevlar Vest. You roll an attack roll of 17. The GM tells you, "no, sorry, you miss, the guy's armour deflects your bazookashot".
Assuming that the Badguy has Def 10+2Dex+3Class+3Armour...
I'd be ****** and ask why my bazookashot didn't just rip him apart if I managed to actually hit the guy.
No, the guy should have a
Defense seems to be able to mean a lot of things, from simply avoiding the injury (like dodging) weaponry and equipment designed to eliminate threats (anti aircraft guns and radar stations) or a type of armor or structure that can absorb damage, but gets used up in the process (wooden baracades, sandbag walls, armor that gets blown off)
to me, hardness seems to be a stat that would revolve around certian attacks not being able to do any damage, and other attacks having their damage severly limited.
Defense seems to be able to mean a lot of things, from simply avoiding the injury (like dodging) weaponry and equipment designed to eliminate threats (anti aircraft guns and radar stations) or a type of armor or structure that can absorb damage, but gets used up in the process (wooden baracades, sandbag walls, armor that gets blown off)
I agree, but this seems to be confused by the d20 SRD in places. Some argue (like my players)...How does armor help you dodge attack??
If Hardness was abalative (gets used up), then its value would decrease. Car Wars did this with metal armor on their cars, every time the armor was penetrated the value of the armor would go down 1 point, to simulate a hole in the metal.
I agree, but this seems to be confused by the d20 SRD in places. Some argue (like my players)...How does armor help you dodge attack??
It doesn't. Armor helps prevent an attack from landing solidly enough to do harm.
d20 Combat is abstract. A miss doesn't necessarily mean you missed the target, mearly that you failed to damage the target. A hit doesn't even necessarily mean a hit, it mearly means that the target looses hit points, which are themselves abstract... after all, it's difficult to imagine that a human being can really take a directly hit from a missile launcher and survive but a PC with enough hit points and a good enough Fort save certainly can.
Now, some people do house rule armor as DR, or even armor as mixed defense bonus and DR. I've tried that myself. I like it conceptually but I ultimately gave up on it because, in the heat of battle, my players never remembered to actually apply their DR.
My $.02.
Now, some people do house rule armor as DR, or even armor as mixed defense bonus and DR. I've tried that myself. I like it conceptually but I ultimately gave up on it because, in the heat of battle, my players never remembered to actually apply their DR.
My $.02.
Could you send or direct me to where I can find the mixed rule? Cause I would like to compare it to some thoughts of mine!
Also, armor after being hit sometimes needs replacing... either a full swap at a repair yard or minor in the field repairs!
You subtracted the 2nd highest from the highest and used a table to get the bonus. The third highest was subtracted from the 2nd & the same table used. Any other layers don't add to your armor rating, but you still take penalties to agility and movement.
There was a table used to determine where you were hit and each area had it's own armor rating.
Finally, for every 10 points of damage done, the armor rating drops by 1.
Could you send or direct me to where I can find the mixed rule? Cause I would like to compare it to some thoughts of mine!
Armor as Damage Reduction, Unearthed Arcana (3e) page 111-112.
Short version, armor gives DR equal to 1/2 (round down) of it's normal defense bonus. Subtract that DR from the normal defense bonus to determine it's new defense bonus.
Ex. an Undercover Vest normally gives a defense bonus of +3. Half of +3 rounded down is 1. So an Undercover Vest gives DR 1 and defense bonus +2 (+3-1 = 2).
Armor as Damage Reduction, Unearthed Arcana (3e) page 111-112.
Short version, armor gives DR equal to 1/2 (round down) of it's normal defense bonus. Subtract that DR from the normal defense bonus to determine it's new defense bonus.
Ex. an Undercover Vest normally gives a defense bonus of +3. Half of +3 rounded down is 1. So an Undercover Vest gives DR 1 and defense bonus +2 (+3-1 = 2).
Unearthed Arcana has been added to my 'Books 2 Buy' list... I'll look at the pages when my group meets next week cause I'm sure one player has it!
That seems like a perfectly reasonable system. Where can I find this? Does there exist an SRD?
I don't know if it has an srd, Cyberpunk 2020 was several versions (and years) ago.