Heroes Creation

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

jaywolfe82

Mar 12, 2008 19:01:21		For those of you who love making D20 Modern characters I could use a little help. My wife loves the televeision show on NBC called Heroes (heard of it...yea just pretend like you haven't) Anyway, I'm going to try to build a few of the said characters, and would love some help. Mostly because while I'm an avid D&D player I know little and have never played Modern. So any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
jay
#2

TheRealOrion

Mar 12, 2008 19:06:46 		I'm pretty sure this has come up before. We have a few "make fictional characters" threads. Not that I think that should stop you! Carry on. Have fun.

If you're looking for a superhero version of Modern to help you with this task, then there is no shortage of choices! I have one in my sig and there are at least a few others, floating around. Enjoy.
#3

ranger_reg

Mar 13, 2008 1:36:50
For those of you who love making D20 Modern characters I could use a little help. My wife loves the televeision show on NBC called Heroes (heard of it...yea just pretend like you haven't) Anyway, I'm going to try to build a few of the said characters, and would love some help. Mostly because while I'm an avid D&D player I know little and have never played Modern. So any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
jay

Any help?

Get Mutants & Masterminds.

But if you're limited to running a d20 Modern game, get the Blood and Vigilance Supers sourcebook.
#4

TheRealOrion

Mar 13, 2008 2:58:08 		Blood and Vigilence is pretty good, but it's a very slim book and the rules are written kinda vaguely some times. Don't get me wrong. You could do a supers game with it, but you'd have to fill in a lot of the details with your own judgement calls. It's just not a robust system.

Phoenix, my game, is three times as much material, many many more powers, and rules that, I think, are written with more precision in mind. It's obviously up to you what you prefer, but just to put the cherry on top: mine's free and probably always will be.

Just sayin'.
#5

battles14

Mar 13, 2008 12:37:34 		Orion, with all due respect (read: to call you on your shameless plugs ;) ), there are two problems that I see with Phoenix. The first is that it's built on a 20-level progression, which isn't provided for (or balanced) for d20 Modern. However, this might be better for you, Jay, if you're used to D&D rules. Second, it introduces a complex point buy system that offers an inherent learning curve in itself.

Jay, it's funny that you bring this up, because I'm a huge Heroes fan, and I was working on a specialized d20 Modern hero system with the secret goal of being able to stat all the characters from that show. It works through the mechanic of an advanced class (much in the way a power manifests itself), and as the player gains more levels in the advanced class, their power gets stronger. So, for example, Peter Petrelli would be a Dedicated Hero 3/Empath 8.

Unfortunately, I forgot to copy the files before I deleted one of my XP users, and I think the information is lost. I'm still trying to see if they're saved somewhere in the depths of my hard drive, and I remember most of what I had before everything got erased. If you want to focus on certain characters, I can try to re-write some of the mechanics that pertain to them.
#6

jaywolfe82

Mar 13, 2008 17:49:23 		I have skimmed through a great deal of Phoienix, and am utterly impressed. Enough so, to actually consider running a game with it. Only one question though, what do you use for a character sheet?
#7

jaywolfe82

Mar 13, 2008 17:57:50
Orion, with all due respect (read: to call you on your shameless plugs ;) ), there are two problems that I see with Phoenix. The first is that it's built on a 20-level progression, which isn't provided for (or balanced) for d20 Modern. However, this might be better for you, Jay, if you're used to D&D rules. Second, it introduces a complex point buy system that offers an inherent learning curve in itself.

Jay, it's funny that you bring this up, because I'm a huge Heroes fan, and I was working on a specialized d20 Modern hero system with the secret goal of being able to stat all the characters from that show. It works through the mechanic of an advanced class (much in the way a power manifests itself), and as the player gains more levels in the advanced class, their power gets stronger. So, for example, Peter Petrelli would be a Dedicated Hero 3/Empath 8.

Unfortunately, I forgot to copy the files before I deleted one of my XP users, and I think the information is lost. I'm still trying to see if they're saved somewhere in the depths of my hard drive, and I remember most of what I had before everything got erased. If you want to focus on certain characters, I can try to re-write some of the mechanics that pertain to them.

Yea I'm definetly more used to D&D...in fact never played D20 Modern, I'm looking for a PbP for D20 Modern that will teach me about character creation and the like.

Also, I agree with you on the learning curve for Phoenix. It will require a great deal of retraining and learning, but you are talking to someone who struggled to learn how to play the Star Trek Role Playing game built on the d6 system despite having no interested friends to play it with.

However, I would be interested in working with anyone who will aid me in learning how to use the D20 Modern/Future System. I feel like I'm missing out on something awesome!!!

Thanks everyone for the support, feel free to keep sending it my way.
#8

TheRealOrion

Mar 13, 2008 18:28:50 		That posted version of Phoenix is not, in fact, the most recent. I have added many things to it since then. If you want an updated version, email me. It's not generally released yet, but I could throw one together for you. Also, I have a character sheet that's posted on our Yahoo! group, but if you want, I can send you a copy. PM me!

As for the flaws, I deliberately use the 20-level progression model. I do so because, frankly, I see a bigger market of D&D players who want to try a different kind of high-fantasy game than I do of d20 Modern players who want to add super-powers to their Modern games. Sorry if that seems harsh, but that's my niche. Also, I play way more D&D than d20M, so it was easier for me to design it on that template.

The classes are, absolutely, a lot more powerful than Modern classes, and that's on purpose! It's a super-powered game and we wanted classes (archetypes) to match, which tend to be very powerful.

All that having been said, the whole system is modular. By no means do you have to use the character classes included in Phoenix. In fact, I have alternate rules in Chapter 8 for running Phoenix with the standard Base/Advanced classes.

The learning curve is, yes, I admit, kinda steep. I didn't want that to be the case, originally, but I just couldn't come up with a standardised way to implement powers, which is ultimately why we kept the Character-Point system that we inherited from Deeds Not Words.
#9

battles14

Mar 13, 2008 21:13:19
As for the flaws, I deliberately use the 20-level progression model. I do so because, frankly, I see a bigger market of D&D players who want to try a different kind of high-fantasy game than I do of d20 Modern players who want to add super-powers to their Modern games. Sorry if that seems harsh, but that's my niche. Also, I play way more D&D than d20M, so it was easier for me to design it on that template.

Precisely, and Phoenix is great at what it's designed for. I get a little more uptight about mixing D&D and d20 stuff with Modern because my group always wants to bring in outside stuff, and I've had some bad experiences with things being really broken. So when it comes to designing outside products, I err more on the side of keeping Modern in mind when I write. It's just a difference of opinion, that's all.
#10

TheRealOrion

Mar 13, 2008 21:36:32 		I can understand that. d20M is designed at a particular power level for a series of very good reasons. The thing is, though, a superhero game is right up there at the power level of a high-fantasy game, so in some ways, superheroes have more in common with D&D than they do d20M.

That said, I still haven't quite solved the damage problem. In Phoenix, you take damage as normal (although in theory, more people are doing non-lethal damage), but there's no "healing" per se, even though I have a power called "Healing Touch." The genre just doesn't include outside healing, at least not all that much. Instead, almost any power set includes some kind of fast healing, and those who don't have powers just miraculously don't take all that much damage. I'm still playing with it.
#11

jaywolfe82

Mar 13, 2008 23:25:16
I can understand that. d20M is designed at a particular power level for a series of very good reasons. The thing is, though, a superhero game is right up there at the power level of a high-fantasy game, so in some ways, superheroes have more in common with D&D than they do d20M.

That said, I still haven't quite solved the damage problem. In Phoenix, you take damage as normal (although in theory, more people are doing non-lethal damage), but there's no "healing" per se, even though I have a power called "Healing Touch." The genre just doesn't include outside healing, at least not all that much. Instead, almost any power set includes some kind of fast healing, and those who don't have powers just miraculously don't take all that much damage. I'm still playing with it.

Well it's very simple...Heroes never die unless they are killing the BBEG in the process or to sell more comic books.
#12

TheRealOrion

Mar 14, 2008 12:27:33 		But how do you implement that rule in a game and not lose all sense of risk?
#13

aspiring_lichlord

Mar 14, 2008 22:08:31 		It's not risk, it's storytelling, I'd say that superheroes are just so super-heroic that it's really hard for them to actually die (extend death to -20 hitpoints instead? or just allow the GM to fudge the way he likes?)

And I'd like to say that D&D and D20 are practically the exact same system, except for some feats/skills additions and changes and the Action points, which may be implemented in 4e (dunno, just a guess). Essentially D20 builds upon the D&D rules.

if you want some super power generation system, check out the BESM core rulebook, Big Eyes Small Mouth, it uses character points like the Pheonix system seems to have, and also has some nifty mecha construction/weapon creation and epic battle rules as well as character weaknesses (some are anime/manga-themed).

EDIT: and about the healing issue, you always stitch some rules in, like the D&D/D20 healing mechanics, and tweak them so they fit the math
#14

TheRealOrion

Mar 15, 2008 2:03:01 		Actually, extending negative hit points isn't a bad idea. It allows people to get "killed" but miraculously survive. I'll think about that one.

Yes of course D&D and d20M are practically the same system! That's the whole point! But if I understand you correctly, I think what you're saying is that you'd need a truly different rule system to even handle the ridiculous levels of destruction and carnage that superheroes imply?

I haven't looked at BESM, and I really really should, but it seems to me that D&D is created with "epic-level battles" in mind, and it actually took some monkeying with the rules to ratchet it down enough to work for d20M. That's partly why Phoenix is build on the D&D model in many ways, the power level. From my observation, a fully kitted-out 10th-level superhero is about as ass-kicking as a fully kitted-out 10th-level D&D character.

I have made a power called "Healing Touch," but it's not the kind of thing that heroes gravitate towards. Also, there's no such thing as healing potions. The most common kind of healing in the genre is spontaneous, which means maybe I should reduce the price of Rapid Healing. Something to think about.
#15

TheRealOrion

Mar 15, 2008 2:12:37 		double post
#16

aspiring_lichlord

Mar 15, 2008 10:47:25 		really? they ratcheted down the D&D rules for Modern? I didn't notice anything different, perhaps because I was too enthralled by the Talents of the basic classes and Action Points rules (wow, that sounds really sarcastic)

How has it been nerfed?
#17

jaywolfe82

Mar 15, 2008 11:31:31 		We actually play with Action points in my D&D games, so that wouldn't be that different for my players. I've also been reading through Mutants and Masterminds and I think with a few tweaks that system might work really well too.
#18

aspiring_lichlord

Mar 15, 2008 11:54:13 		I wonder if 4e D&D will have Action Points...

but, aside from... Pheonix, Mutants and Masterminds, BESM, are there any other good sources for superheor rules/powers ideas

btw, is MaM a D20 product or something more like BESM and Pheonix?
#19

TheRealOrion

Mar 15, 2008 17:53:52
How has it been nerfed?

Perhaps I over-stated it, but there are a couple of key differences.

Massive Damage equals your Con score, not 50HPs. In d20M, if you fail a Massive Damage save, you are reduced to -1HPs. In D&D, if I recall correctly, you just die. The idea here is that people will often take damage and "fall over" but not die, which gives you enough time to rush them to the hospital, which they will have to stay at for, presumably, quite some time. In a world without easy access to healing potions, they needed some way to keep people from just getting killed all the damn time.

Spells don't go above 5th level. This speaks for itself, I think.

So it's not that the whole system was nerfed, I think. It's that without access to lots and lots of magic, as a matter of course, some things about the game had to be changed or else every single adventure would result in party fatalities, and that's not much fun. That being said, d20M also requires a very different strategic approach. You can't just barrel in, as if it were a video game. If you take damage during an adventure, there's really no way to cure it and keep moving. You have to plan ahead. You have to take threats more seriously. I like it, actually.
#20

TheRealOrion

Mar 15, 2008 17:59:16
but, aside from... Pheonix, Mutants and Masterminds, BESM, are there any other good sources for superheor rules/powers ideas

There are quite a few, actually. A lot of people saw d20 and thought "superheroes! I can play superheroes!" There's Blood and Vigilance which is pretty good but a little thin on rules. There as something just called d20 Superheroes, but it was, frankly, kind of clunky. There was Foundation, that was a fairly meaty book, but still kind of thin on details. It never really took off. Very early attempt. And then there was Deeds Not Words, which I effectively inhireted the rights to and on which I based Phoenix. A lot of DNW ended up in Pheonix, although I've also edited, adjusted, and tweaked it to the point where it's hard to say that it's really the same game.

btw, is MaM a D20 product or something more like BESM and Pheonix?

M&M is even less like d20M than Phoenix. I can't speak for BESM. They went their own way, and by all accounts, the changes they made work beautifully. I tried to write Phoenix with maximum compatibility with d20M and/or D&D. Aside from the fundamental point-buy system, I like to think I achieved that with only a few exceptions.
#21

jaywolfe82

Mar 15, 2008 18:28:24 		After mere quick glances through both M&M and Phoenix (0.1) I see many similarities. By the by I got your email Orion and plan on looking through the files. Then I'll see if my RL group would like to play test it.
#22

aspiring_lichlord

Mar 16, 2008 11:34:58 		Ah, I see, but in the GM section of Modern it gives three levels of adventure, anemly how many points you get when buying stats (if you choose) and the rference point of Massive Damage (Realistic: 10, Heroic: Con, Super-Heroic: 50)

Personally, I'm a zombie gamer, that is, I like pulling together multiple rule sets and settings. It's especially tempting when the rule sets are made to transfer over, like D20 and BESM.
#23

TheRealOrion

Mar 16, 2008 13:02:18 		Wouldn't that be a Frankensteiner? Anyway...

I hadn't ever noticed that table in the core book. Thanks for pointing it out. I do find it interesting that "super Heroic" is basically D&D-style rules. I think, though, that the fact that they separate the words "super" and "heroic" indicates that it's just an intensifier, "more heroic," rather than a reference to actual superheroes (one word). The superhero genre has other set elements in it that d20M, as fun as it is, just doesn't cover.

It really is sad that they didn't just pump out Spectaculars when they had the chance.
#24

new_fashion_guy

Mar 21, 2008 8:42:45 		Orion, I have a Phoenix question. I'm working on making up an old team from DC Heroes using your rules. Do characters get skills x 4 at first level, like in D20 Modern/D&D, or do they have to spend CP to get more than the alloted "skills + Int". I assume it's skills X 4, but I wanted to double check what you intended it to be, first.
#25

cpvest

Mar 21, 2008 9:48:27 		If I ran this I would just have the players make standerd characters, and just give them special abilities. In the show you have flight, strength, invisibility, illusions, etc. Just scale it to level like every 4 levels in increases, and they have to spend action points to use and once per game can be used in a special way.
Strength: +4 base (+1 per 4 character levels), and increase by +10 to damage material objects and none combat effects for 1 action point/round.
Flight: fly 30' +5'/4 levels, and non-combat at x4. Spend 1 action point to fly at super-sonic speeds for 30 mins, this is how they escaped combat.
Telekentic Push: 1D6 +1D6/4 levels damage, Reflex save to stay standing DC 10 +Int mod +1 /2 levels. Spend 1 action point to move a car or blast down a door.
I'd do it that way so you have control, and the action point abilties the characters can help with (that always makes them happy) and maybe let them gain more as they go up in level. This would make normals with special abilties who can still get hurt from some security guard.
#26

jaywolfe82

Mar 21, 2008 10:53:36 		That's not a bad idea, but the one thing I see as a potential problem is a balancing issue. The characters on Heroes do not have balanced powers. The ability to pick up a car and throw it doesn't balance with the ability to stop time. Or flying vs. being able to use the abilities of anyone you've ever met. That was the one reason I was looking for some sort of balanced super-hero system that already existed.

However perhaps a melding between your idea and the power acquisition in phoenix or M&M.
#27

new_fashion_guy

Mar 21, 2008 10:58:53
For those of you who love making D20 Modern characters I could use a little help. My wife loves the televeision show on NBC called Heroes (heard of it...yea just pretend like you haven't) Anyway, I'm going to try to build a few of the said characters, and would love some help. Mostly because while I'm an avid D&D player I know little and have never played Modern. So any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
jay

One problem you might run into is level of power. I'm not far enough into Phoenix to know how well it represents this, but I know you can't deal in movement rates of 30' + 5'/level, as an example. The "Flying Man" in Heroes could fly in the hundreds of miles per hour, at least. You would need to treat speeds in terms of Type of speed, like Modern's Street speed vs. Highway speed. You might need "City" Flight speed, "National" Flight speed, "International" Flight speed, etc.

Also, realize that the characters in "Heroes" aren't anywhere near the same power level. One can read minds, which is fairly easy to do in D20 Modern. One's a tough fighter, also fairly easy. One has several different powers with no real drawback (read VERY powerful), and one can travel in time and space, stop time, etc (EXTREMELY powerful). If someone asked me if I wanted to be able to read minds or control time and space, I know what I'd pick.
#28

jaywolfe82

Mar 21, 2008 11:44:55 		I just said that in hte post right before yours...I understand the balance problem hence the reason I'm looking for a system that already has the mechanics built into it.
#29

TheRealOrion

Mar 21, 2008 13:45:42
Do characters get skills x 4 at first level, like in D20 Modern/D&D

Yes, they do. I wrote Phoenix with the assumption that it will run just like d20M (except for the classes), but I think I have to spell that out more clearly. Thanks for the tip!

You would need to treat speeds in terms of Type of speed, like Modern's Street speed vs. Highway speed. You might need "City" Flight speed, "National" Flight speed, "International" Flight speed, etc.

That's it exactly! When you buy Flight, you get a tactical speed (for use while in combat) and a cruising speed (for travel). If I recall correctly, you can also increase just your cruising speed, for travel.

The power-point cost is also different. In tactical, it's per round. In cruising, it's either per hour or every 10 minutes (can't recall exactly off the top of my head). And you regenerate power points ever few hours, so you can effectively fly for travel for as long as you like, but if you use it combat, you eat up your points. That's the idea, anyway.

Also, realize that the characters in "Heroes" aren't anywhere near the same power level.

Yes and no. The only one with crazy super-strength is actually crazy (multiple personality). The one with telepathy has low-level power (at least he did in season 1). The space/time jumper requires a lot of concentration. He's been cold-cocked a couple of times because he couldn't stop time fast enough.

Most of those things could be translated into game terms. Every time you fall asleep, you could switch to your other personality. Your telepathy is surface thoughts only and creates "feedback" with certain other kinds of powers. Teleportation and/or time travel require a Concentration check and a full-round action. Yadda yadda. Limiting factors aren't hard to invent. They're just hard for writers to stick to because they like making characters ridiculously powerful.
#30

ranger_reg

Mar 22, 2008 22:41:36
btw, is MaM a D20 product or something more like BESM and Pheonix?

It's not a d20 System [labeled] product. Steve Kenson took the SRD and turn it into a completely different yet innovative standalone ruleset. It's innovative because the entire rules and game uses just one die: a d20.

He kept many of the familiar game terms used in d20 System products, but it's all point-based.