I need clarification on a nonlethal damage rule - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

I need clarification on a nonlethal damage rule

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
undead_jed
Nov 04, 2008 19:13:17 I think I originally posted this in the wrong place so I'm putting it here since it involves the Modern books. A session I'll be running soon will very likely end up in a fist fight between some NPC's and one or more of my players. In reference to nonlethal damage, the Modern core rulebook says:

[INDENT]"Nonlethal damage doesn't affect hit points. Instead, if a single attack deals nonlethal damage that equals or exceeds the target's current Constitution score, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). On a successful save, the target is dazed for 1 round. On a failed save, the target is knocked unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds."[/INDENT]

Here's my problem. If a medium sized (human) only deals 1d3 + Strength modifier in nonlethal damage, how could anyone ever knock a guy out? Even with a STR of 18, affording a bonus of +4, the most anyone could hope to do is 7 points. That's not enough to knock out someone with even an average CON score. How would you resolve a fight in this way? It would go on indefinately until someone opted to deal lethal damage or picked up an object that deals more damage than fists.

Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm totally stumped. Can anyone help me out?
#2
nobodez_here
Nov 04, 2008 23:43:48 Most people, who don't have any training, aren't going to knock someone out (unless on a high damage crit, even then, it's iffy). Instead, they'll strike to actually deal damage, break bones, damage organs, deal lethal damage.

Now, someone who's trained in boxing (brawl and the like) can easily knock someone out. 1d6+str, max of 20 with a crit. With Improved Brawl, it goes up to 1d8+ str, max of 24 on a crit. Knockput punch auto-crits, and Improved Knockout does a x3 crit (max of 3d8+12 or 36 with an 18 str).

That's how you do it. Either you're lucky (high damage on a crit with a low damage threshold) or skilled (high initial damage, and greater chance of crits), or start dealing hard blows (lethal damage).
#3
undead_jed
Nov 05, 2008 11:26:31 Thank you. I didn't take all that into account.
#4
tema69
Nov 05, 2008 12:56:26 Although I do agree with NobodezHere, I did create this additional rule for our campaign. It, and other "realism" oriented houserules can be found here: http://www.megaupload.com/dk/?d=Q0DCCBZ5

Unarmed Combat [addition to the nonlethal system]
For every successive consecutive hit, the attacker gains a stacking +1 to overcome the defender's MAS. An attacker loses one of these bonuses per round if he does not hit the character that round (this can only remove the bonuses already received for hitting the character).

So basically, even though you might not deal much damage, if you hit your opponent a few times, it might start to wear him down. If the opponent gets a few moments without getting hit, he freshens up again.
#5
undead_jed
Nov 05, 2008 19:51:37 Sorry I'm still kind of new with these rules. What does MAS stand for?
#6
nclanceman
Nov 05, 2008 20:35:07
Sorry I'm still kind of new with these rules. What does MAS stand for?

Massive Damage Threshold. My personal favorite rule.
#7
tema69
Nov 06, 2008 5:40:53 Yea, MASsive Damage Threshold. It's in the rulebook/MSRD*.

Hey, NCLanceman, long time no see.
If you like the MAS rules, why don't you have a look at my Wounds & Vitality rules (found in the above link in post #4), where your MAS follows the amount of Wounds you have. So your MAS isn't fixed - if you are already severely wounded, chances are, you won't appreciate another hit.

*online reference document for d20M.
#8
layla_minogue
Nov 06, 2008 9:51:10 As an alternative, you could use D&D 3.5 nonlethal damage. When your NLD equals your current hit points you become staggered (only one action per round, either move or standard), and when it exceeds your current hit points you lose consciousness. That's the system I prefer, anyway.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 undead_jed Nov 04, 2008 19:13:17	I think I originally posted this in the wrong place so I'm putting it here since it involves the Modern books. A session I'll be running soon will very likely end up in a fist fight between some NPC's and one or more of my players. In reference to nonlethal damage, the Modern core rulebook says: [INDENT]"Nonlethal damage doesn't affect hit points. Instead, if a single attack deals nonlethal damage that equals or exceeds the target's current Constitution score, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). On a successful save, the target is dazed for 1 round. On a failed save, the target is knocked unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds."[/INDENT] Here's my problem. If a medium sized (human) only deals 1d3 + Strength modifier in nonlethal damage, how could anyone ever knock a guy out? Even with a STR of 18, affording a bonus of +4, the most anyone could hope to do is 7 points. That's not enough to knock out someone with even an average CON score. How would you resolve a fight in this way? It would go on indefinately until someone opted to deal lethal damage or picked up an object that deals more damage than fists. Unless there's something I'm missing, I'm totally stumped. Can anyone help me out?
#2 nobodez_here Nov 04, 2008 23:43:48	Most people, who don't have any training, aren't going to knock someone out (unless on a high damage crit, even then, it's iffy). Instead, they'll strike to actually deal damage, break bones, damage organs, deal lethal damage. Now, someone who's trained in boxing (brawl and the like) can easily knock someone out. 1d6+str, max of 20 with a crit. With Improved Brawl, it goes up to 1d8+ str, max of 24 on a crit. Knockput punch auto-crits, and Improved Knockout does a x3 crit (max of 3d8+12 or 36 with an 18 str). That's how you do it. Either you're lucky (high damage on a crit with a low damage threshold) or skilled (high initial damage, and greater chance of crits), or start dealing hard blows (lethal damage).
#3 undead_jed Nov 05, 2008 11:26:31	Thank you. I didn't take all that into account.
#4 tema69 Nov 05, 2008 12:56:26	Although I do agree with NobodezHere, I did create this additional rule for our campaign. It, and other "realism" oriented houserules can be found here: http://www.megaupload.com/dk/?d=Q0DCCBZ5 Unarmed Combat [addition to the nonlethal system] For every successive consecutive hit, the attacker gains a stacking +1 to overcome the defender's MAS. An attacker loses one of these bonuses per round if he does not hit the character that round (this can only remove the bonuses already received for hitting the character). So basically, even though you might not deal much damage, if you hit your opponent a few times, it might start to wear him down. If the opponent gets a few moments without getting hit, he freshens up again.
#5 undead_jed Nov 05, 2008 19:51:37	Sorry I'm still kind of new with these rules. What does MAS stand for?
#6 nclanceman Nov 05, 2008 20:35:07	Sorry I'm still kind of new with these rules. What does MAS stand for? Massive Damage Threshold. My personal favorite rule.
#7 tema69 Nov 06, 2008 5:40:53	Yea, MASsive Damage Threshold. It's in the rulebook/MSRD. Hey, NCLanceman, long time no see. If you like the MAS rules, why don't you have a look at my Wounds & Vitality rules (found in the above link in post #4), where your MAS follows the amount of Wounds you have. So your MAS isn't fixed - if you are already severely wounded, chances are, you won't appreciate another hit. online reference document for d20M.
#8 layla_minogue Nov 06, 2008 9:51:10	As an alternative, you could use D&D 3.5 nonlethal damage. When your NLD equals your current hit points you become staggered (only one action per round, either move or standard), and when it exceeds your current hit points you lose consciousness. That's the system I prefer, anyway.