Leadership: is it in d20M anywhere? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Leadership: is it in d20M anywhere?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
TheRealOrion
Nov 19, 2009 17:54:38 I'm looking for a version of the feat that takes Reputation into account. Is there one floating around somewhere? Has anyone actually played it?
#2
psininja
Nov 19, 2009 22:08:27 It's in d20 Past. Kind of. It's split into two seperate feats: the Minions feat for henchmen and the Sidekick feat for cohorts.

I think the numbers and levels work out the same. Your leadership score is character level + charisma bonus + reputation.
#3
TheRealOrion
Nov 20, 2009 0:45:23 Thank you. That makes sense, actually. Leadership is a hell of a feat, really. For the low price of one feat, you get a second character and a whole retinue. Two feats starts to approach reasonable.
#4
psininja
Nov 20, 2009 16:39:51
I've never been a fan of the Leadership feat. Sure, it' cool to have dozens of flunkies to boss around, but the level gap makes them pretty useless. The Sidekick feat gives you a better class of help, but it's still hit with a level cap.
#5
AnimeSniper
Nov 20, 2009 17:21:19 Only time I have ever seen Leadership truely useful, maybe cause he played it well and made good followers, was during a D&D campaign where the player had a limited three minions/cohorts each with different classes and helped the main party finish I believe it was a shadow dungeon in a pocket dimension... and he did lose two minions which the GM said he could resurrect but chose to get new cohorts.

Truthfully if its planned i.e. cohort 1 Heavy Weapons Specialist, Cohort 2 Driving/piloting, cohort 3 Demolitions, then it works.

Personally as a GM I feel limiting cohorts to a set number works out especially in the initiative roster...
#6
TheRealOrion
Nov 20, 2009 19:39:17 I'm really shocked to hear people call Leadership an under-powered feat. To my mind, as I said, you spend one feat and get a loyal sidekick, one who might even sacrifice his/her/hir life for you, and who is then replaced within three months game-tie, and you get a small and ever-growing army of people who, at least implicitly, will fight for you and will be replaced within one month. For one feat, you get an army. Compare that to, say, Dodge, just for perspective. A player who understands tactics can put a Sidekick and Minions to an incredible amount of use. Just having multiple bodies on the board is strategically invaluable. Hurling them at a powerful villain is the dumbest thing you could do with them, but if you use them to set up traps, distract opponents, and generally cause other kinds of mayhem, that is when you're thinking like a mastermind. If anything, those feats should be curtailed.

And in fact, I'm in the process of doing just that right now for Phoenix. I'll post the results when I have them.
#7
psininja
Nov 20, 2009 21:13:45
Did a little math and I take it back. The Minions feat isn't a worthless as it look on first glance.

With the 20 auto success rule, you get your 135 1st level mooks shooting at some guy get you 6 hit per round. With AK-47s, they're gonna do 9 point of damage each or 54 point of damage total. With burst fire, it's 18 points of damage each and a whopping 108 damage per round. Sure, you're running through 675 round of ammo per round, but you can't put a price tag on that kinda pwnage.
#8
TheRealOrion
Nov 20, 2009 22:45:26 Again, though, the primary utility of Minions is not how much damage they can do per round. It's getting them to do other things that make an attack more effective: having all lines of fire covered, keeping enemies from easily leaving/entering an area, having a living early-warning system, etc. etc. etc. Anyone who knows anything about tactics/strategy can put that to great use.
#9
backstabbist
Nov 21, 2009 9:25:40 Orion just hit the point:
You get to have a guy covering that back door, and that ever important Snipernest guy that gives intel... and maybe even unjam you when you get in a jam with a longball potshot at guys pinning you

Did you see those 2 mooks go out the back door to circle around and flank you at the front?
You Minion sniper did, and he has that nice digital headset comm you gave him.
He doesnt have to be able to kill them, he just needs to make them think about walking thru fire to flank you... oops looks like a Morale/Loyalty check for them flankers, and we all love them WillSaves.... ahh, the flankers decided to turn back uh ummm to tell the boss about the guy outback, yeah, they arent running away, they are doing a retrograde debriefing
#10
nobodez_here
Nov 27, 2009 0:09:42 I take Leadership with every D&D character I can. Even if my Charisma isn't that high, that extra character makes all the difference. I've never been tempted to bring Sidekick or Minions into my d20 Modern games because, aside from one game in the first year or so after release, and one just last year with an inexperienced GM, I've always been the GM.

Of course, my favorite tactic is actually organizing the Minons/Followers into squads. In d20 Modern it's fairly easy to put together a basic tactical package for a unit of 10 or so 1st level ordinaries. Radios, Light Duty Vests, Mesh Vests, MP5K's, NVGs, and Smoke Grenades. Pull out a M2 or two if you really want to lock down an area (or a few dozen RPGs).

Remember, the bad guys don't know they're mooks. All they see is a Company rolling in with coordinated uniforms, firearms, and every plan of attack or retreat covered.
#11
backstabbist
Nov 29, 2009 9:39:06 Minions are also handy for getting the site prep done prior to a job:
You tell the GM that you dont want to game the boring prep work so you'll have the minion lay the radio-grenades and tripwires and IRsensors around the badguy lair to avoid wasting a bunch of gaming night time. This has the advantage of not only saving everyone gaming time, but protects you from Epic Fail blowing a mission during "Step 0: Prep" because you get caught by their lawnmower guy or paperboy setting up a camera in their window at 5am
.... we just say 'The minion does that while we game the important xxx'

minions succeed where PCs have to roll and risk getting a 1
#12
Ragitsu
Nov 29, 2009 15:40:22 They can also take care of children.
#13
TheRealOrion
Nov 29, 2009 19:08:40 Sure, if that's important to your PCs at the time. The point is that they can do anything. Give that ability to a creative player and he or she will run with it. Having a few luke-warm bodies to do your work for you is how most powerful people in history gathered their power.
#14
ashtagon
Nov 30, 2009 8:01:24
...minions succeed where PCs have to roll and risk getting a 1

This is exactly the situation that take 10 was written to cover. Minions have their uses, but avoiding a roll of 1 isn't one of them. Any time a PC might risk rolling a 1, a minion would too.

#15
MechaPilot
Dec 16, 2009 18:59:50
Leadership is awesome. My favorite character had it (a D&D character, but that doesn't matter) so she could start her own cult. The cohort she got was a priest that worshipped her. The idea that a single feat can turn a narcisist into a Jim Jones, or a street thug into an Ernst Stavro Blofeld is simply incredible. It's also great for filling out the red-shirted ranks of the U.S.S. Enterprise.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 TheRealOrion Nov 19, 2009 17:54:38	I'm looking for a version of the feat that takes Reputation into account. Is there one floating around somewhere? Has anyone actually played it?
#2 psininja Nov 19, 2009 22:08:27	It's in d20 Past. Kind of. It's split into two seperate feats: the Minions feat for henchmen and the Sidekick feat for cohorts. I think the numbers and levels work out the same. Your leadership score is character level + charisma bonus + reputation.
#3 TheRealOrion Nov 20, 2009 0:45:23	Thank you. That makes sense, actually. Leadership is a hell of a feat, really. For the low price of one feat, you get a second character and a whole retinue. Two feats starts to approach reasonable.
#4 psininja Nov 20, 2009 16:39:51	I've never been a fan of the Leadership feat. Sure, it' cool to have dozens of flunkies to boss around, but the level gap makes them pretty useless. The Sidekick feat gives you a better class of help, but it's still hit with a level cap.
#5 AnimeSniper Nov 20, 2009 17:21:19	Only time I have ever seen Leadership truely useful, maybe cause he played it well and made good followers, was during a D&D campaign where the player had a limited three minions/cohorts each with different classes and helped the main party finish I believe it was a shadow dungeon in a pocket dimension... and he did lose two minions which the GM said he could resurrect but chose to get new cohorts. Truthfully if its planned i.e. cohort 1 Heavy Weapons Specialist, Cohort 2 Driving/piloting, cohort 3 Demolitions, then it works. Personally as a GM I feel limiting cohorts to a set number works out especially in the initiative roster...
#6 TheRealOrion Nov 20, 2009 19:39:17	I'm really shocked to hear people call Leadership an under-powered feat. To my mind, as I said, you spend one feat and get a loyal sidekick, one who might even sacrifice his/her/hir life for you, and who is then replaced within three months game-tie, and you get a small and ever-growing army of people who, at least implicitly, will fight for you and will be replaced within one month. For one feat, you get an army. Compare that to, say, Dodge, just for perspective. A player who understands tactics can put a Sidekick and Minions to an incredible amount of use. Just having multiple bodies on the board is strategically invaluable. Hurling them at a powerful villain is the dumbest thing you could do with them, but if you use them to set up traps, distract opponents, and generally cause other kinds of mayhem, that is when you're thinking like a mastermind. If anything, those feats should be curtailed. And in fact, I'm in the process of doing just that right now for Phoenix. I'll post the results when I have them.
#7 psininja Nov 20, 2009 21:13:45	Did a little math and I take it back. The Minions feat isn't a worthless as it look on first glance. With the 20 auto success rule, you get your 135 1st level mooks shooting at some guy get you 6 hit per round. With AK-47s, they're gonna do 9 point of damage each or 54 point of damage total. With burst fire, it's 18 points of damage each and a whopping 108 damage per round. Sure, you're running through 675 round of ammo per round, but you can't put a price tag on that kinda pwnage.
#8 TheRealOrion Nov 20, 2009 22:45:26	Again, though, the primary utility of Minions is not how much damage they can do per round. It's getting them to do other things that make an attack more effective: having all lines of fire covered, keeping enemies from easily leaving/entering an area, having a living early-warning system, etc. etc. etc. Anyone who knows anything about tactics/strategy can put that to great use.
#9 backstabbist Nov 21, 2009 9:25:40	Orion just hit the point: You get to have a guy covering that back door, and that ever important Snipernest guy that gives intel... and maybe even unjam you when you get in a jam with a longball potshot at guys pinning you Did you see those 2 mooks go out the back door to circle around and flank you at the front? You Minion sniper did, and he has that nice digital headset comm you gave him. He doesnt have to be able to kill them, he just needs to make them think about walking thru fire to flank you... oops looks like a Morale/Loyalty check for them flankers, and we all love them WillSaves.... ahh, the flankers decided to turn back uh ummm to tell the boss about the guy outback, yeah, they arent running away, they are doing a retrograde debriefing
#10 nobodez_here Nov 27, 2009 0:09:42	I take Leadership with every D&D character I can. Even if my Charisma isn't that high, that extra character makes all the difference. I've never been tempted to bring Sidekick or Minions into my d20 Modern games because, aside from one game in the first year or so after release, and one just last year with an inexperienced GM, I've always been the GM. Of course, my favorite tactic is actually organizing the Minons/Followers into squads. In d20 Modern it's fairly easy to put together a basic tactical package for a unit of 10 or so 1st level ordinaries. Radios, Light Duty Vests, Mesh Vests, MP5K's, NVGs, and Smoke Grenades. Pull out a M2 or two if you really want to lock down an area (or a few dozen RPGs). Remember, the bad guys don't know they're mooks. All they see is a Company rolling in with coordinated uniforms, firearms, and every plan of attack or retreat covered.
#11 backstabbist Nov 29, 2009 9:39:06	Minions are also handy for getting the site prep done prior to a job: You tell the GM that you dont want to game the boring prep work so you'll have the minion lay the radio-grenades and tripwires and IRsensors around the badguy lair to avoid wasting a bunch of gaming night time. This has the advantage of not only saving everyone gaming time, but protects you from Epic Fail blowing a mission during "Step 0: Prep" because you get caught by their lawnmower guy or paperboy setting up a camera in their window at 5am .... we just say 'The minion does that while we game the important xxx' minions succeed where PCs have to roll and risk getting a 1
#12 Ragitsu Nov 29, 2009 15:40:22	They can also take care of children.
#13 TheRealOrion Nov 29, 2009 19:08:40	Sure, if that's important to your PCs at the time. The point is that they can do anything. Give that ability to a creative player and he or she will run with it. Having a few luke-warm bodies to do your work for you is how most powerful people in history gathered their power.
#14 ashtagon Nov 30, 2009 8:01:24	...minions succeed where PCs have to roll and risk getting a 1 This is exactly the situation that take 10 was written to cover. Minions have their uses, but avoiding a roll of 1 isn't one of them. Any time a PC might risk rolling a 1, a minion would too.
#15 MechaPilot Dec 16, 2009 18:59:50	Leadership is awesome. My favorite character had it (a D&D character, but that doesn't matter) so she could start her own cult. The cohort she got was a priest that worshipped her. The idea that a single feat can turn a narcisist into a Jim Jones, or a street thug into an Ernst Stavro Blofeld is simply incredible. It's also great for filling out the red-shirted ranks of the U.S.S. Enterprise.