Modern Classless idea - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Modern Classless idea

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
backstabbist
May 19, 2009 12:50:42 d20 Point Individual Classes
You roll a d20 to see how many Points you can spend, or Take20

Each BAB per 10 levels costs a point
Each ClassDef per 10 levels costs a point
Each 'Medium' save costs a point, 'High' save costs 2
Each Skill/Level costs a point (dont worry about creation x4)
Each Talent Tree costs a point
Free d8 HitDice, d10 costs 2 points, d6 recoups 1 point, d4 recoups 3
XP bonus: points² = % XP bonus (25% XP bonus costs 5points)

Why XP bonus?
MOO-][ gave a score bonus to custom races that didnt spend all their points.
I put in the XP bonus to reward classes made with fewer point... buying less features leavs spare points to convert into XP bonus
#2
penchant
May 19, 2009 13:10:38 Is this at character creation and you just keep what you have from then on? or does it change from level to level.

I think it would be best, for a classless system, to have a certain amount of points to spend each time you level up to buy BAB, saves, class features, etc. This allows the flexibility of mulitclassing without having a more complicated system.

For example, scientist guy starts out his career and goes mimimum on combat skills and saves but loads up on skill points and class features. Then later, when the gunfighter dies in a horrible acid pool accident (de goggles do nussing!) he has to pick up the slack and lays aside his studies picking up full BAB, HD and saves. This, all without leaving the same points system he started the character with.
#3
backstabbist
May 19, 2009 13:34:18 I was gong for something along the per character Custom Class kind of thing,
not a true 'classless'.
At creation, you make your fate... and then have to deal with it for the rest of your life
#4
TheRealOrion
May 19, 2009 14:51:05 That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that.
#5
MechaPilot
May 19, 2009 16:14:16
That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that.

The best classless version I've ever seen for the v3.5 of the d20 system was in BESM d20. 40 discretionary points for ability scores (1 pt gets you a +2 on an ability score) and special abilities, with an extra 10 points per character level (to buy skill points, Hit dice, and special abilities). That book also contains a point-based breakdown of the d20 modern and 3.5 D&D classes.
#6
atanakar
May 19, 2009 16:17:46
That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that.

What I like about class systems is that you get new stuff at every level. But having «character points» to spend, as you wish, when you rise in level that's sweet. Opens up all kinds of avenues. «Superpowers» could be built with increments. Each step giving more flexibility of use as you spend CPs to level them up!
#7
backstabbist
May 19, 2009 16:36:31 Both plans have their advantages.

The big problem is trying to balnce the +1 of Saves vs the BAB+1 / Def+1 / Skill Rank.
I put an entire High/Med/Weak save progression as a single buy to lower their true point cost:
+1 BAB is worth 1 point
The +2 dif between saves progressions is worth 1 point

What I did is a fast and esay custom class generation,
but to balance Skills/BAB/Saves/Def takes a lot of thought & experimenting

Not saying to do so would be bad, but its more involved.

Leading Edge Games went with Rank & XP in each skill (combat is a skill)
That way, the more you shot & hit the better you get at shooting, but if you dont gather any experience in LockPicking you will stay at 1st in it
#8
TheRealOrion
May 19, 2009 18:12:05
What I like about class systems is that you get new stuff at every level. But having «character points» to spend, as you wish, when you rise in level that's sweet. Opens up all kinds of avenues. «Superpowers» could be built with increments. Each step giving more flexibility of use as you spend CPs to level them up!

You've looked at Phoenix right? You just described pretty much exactly how it works. Free too. Just sayin'.
#9
atanakar
May 19, 2009 20:19:41
You've looked at Phoenix right? You just described pretty much exactly how it works. Free too. Just sayin'.

:OMG! Clearly a case of cryptophagia! Posting an idea you think original when it actually comes from somewhere else... My apologies
#10
TheRealOrion
May 19, 2009 20:55:33 Oh, no need to apologise at all! I'm just saying that if that's what you're looking for, then I have it for you in a convenient PDF. Please, feel free to download and play it. Or just download and mine it for ideas. S'funny, actually, my original impulse was to strip it way down, just the "expansion" parts that would layer on top of d20M, but once I had classes, I knew it was practically a standalone game. I almost want to cut it down sometimes, just bonus feats, powers, and the rules to use them. I mean, I'm saying, I just love the idea of d20M as a modular system. You want fantasy rules? Plug 'em in. You want superhero rules? Got 'em right here. You want cyberpunk? Here ya go.

Anyway, I digress. Classless system you say?
#11
backstabbist
May 19, 2009 22:12:09 One problem with a truely caseless character progression is extracting misfires

oh... CLASSless... thats different

I think we can refer to the two plans as Classless Creation, and Classless Advancement.
Neither has a book full of classes to pick from.

Yeah, the modular nature is good stuff,
you just have to watch out for adding on the broken future modular stuff ;)
#12
atanakar
May 20, 2009 9:51:13
Oh, no need to apologise at all! I'm just saying that if that's what you're looking for, then I have it for you in a convenient PDF. Please, feel free to download and play it. Or just download and mine it for ideas. S'funny, actually, my original impulse was to strip it way down, just the "expansion" parts that would layer on top of d20M, but once I had classes, I knew it was practically a standalone game. I almost want to cut it down sometimes, just bonus feats, powers, and the rules to use them. I mean, I'm saying, I just love the idea of d20M as a modular system. You want fantasy rules? Plug 'em in. You want superhero rules? Got 'em right here. You want cyberpunk? Here ya go.

Anyway, I digress. Classless system you say?

Actually at this point I'm looking at all options while I develop my take
on 4E Modern... but this discussion is not for this thread.
#13
backstabbist
May 20, 2009 10:28:27 well, you're right that this particular thread is not the place to delve & tangent into your project,
but its not like we cant pass a reference to it or suggest stuff for your project.

If you were to run a brainstorming session for applying my Classless Creation idea in your project, you'd have to consider
point value of the 1/2Level in Combat Saves and Skills... separate them out to buying BAB/Def/Save/Skill 'per 10level' progressions: Weak3 Med5 Strong7
Given the +5 nature of taking skills, the increased buying power in BABetc is offset by the +5skill
Given the No New Skills nature, this too makes buying skills more valuable, so maybe 2points per skill... maybe even turn the +5 into a Weak3-Med5-Strong7 progression like the others

thats some stuff to consider discussing in your project thread:
Change all the '1/2 Level' stuff and the skill+5 to Weak3-Med5-Strong7 10level progressions

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 backstabbist May 19, 2009 12:50:42	d20 Point Individual Classes You roll a d20 to see how many Points you can spend, or Take20 Each BAB per 10 levels costs a point Each ClassDef per 10 levels costs a point Each 'Medium' save costs a point, 'High' save costs 2 Each Skill/Level costs a point (dont worry about creation x4) Each Talent Tree costs a point Free d8 HitDice, d10 costs 2 points, d6 recoups 1 point, d4 recoups 3 XP bonus: points² = % XP bonus (25% XP bonus costs 5points) Why XP bonus? MOO-][ gave a score bonus to custom races that didnt spend all their points. I put in the XP bonus to reward classes made with fewer point... buying less features leavs spare points to convert into XP bonus
#2 penchant May 19, 2009 13:10:38	Is this at character creation and you just keep what you have from then on? or does it change from level to level. I think it would be best, for a classless system, to have a certain amount of points to spend each time you level up to buy BAB, saves, class features, etc. This allows the flexibility of mulitclassing without having a more complicated system. For example, scientist guy starts out his career and goes mimimum on combat skills and saves but loads up on skill points and class features. Then later, when the gunfighter dies in a horrible acid pool accident (de goggles do nussing!) he has to pick up the slack and lays aside his studies picking up full BAB, HD and saves. This, all without leaving the same points system he started the character with.
#3 backstabbist May 19, 2009 13:34:18	I was gong for something along the per character Custom Class kind of thing, not a true 'classless'. At creation, you make your fate... and then have to deal with it for the rest of your life
#4 TheRealOrion May 19, 2009 14:51:05	That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that.
#5 MechaPilot May 19, 2009 16:14:16	That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that. The best classless version I've ever seen for the v3.5 of the d20 system was in BESM d20. 40 discretionary points for ability scores (1 pt gets you a +2 on an ability score) and special abilities, with an extra 10 points per character level (to buy skill points, Hit dice, and special abilities). That book also contains a point-based breakdown of the d20 modern and 3.5 D&D classes.
#6 atanakar May 19, 2009 16:17:46	That's two really interesting ideas, actually. A custom-class option and a classless option in which you can buy new class-based attributes at every level. It's the custom class + multi-classing, really. I like both, actually. I have a custom-class option in Phoenix, but I hadn't really thought through the implications of buying new attributes at every level. I'll have to play with that. What I like about class systems is that you get new stuff at every level. But having «character points» to spend, as you wish, when you rise in level that's sweet. Opens up all kinds of avenues. «Superpowers» could be built with increments. Each step giving more flexibility of use as you spend CPs to level them up!
#7 backstabbist May 19, 2009 16:36:31	Both plans have their advantages. The big problem is trying to balnce the +1 of Saves vs the BAB+1 / Def+1 / Skill Rank. I put an entire High/Med/Weak save progression as a single buy to lower their true point cost: +1 BAB is worth 1 point The +2 dif between saves progressions is worth 1 point What I did is a fast and esay custom class generation, but to balance Skills/BAB/Saves/Def takes a lot of thought & experimenting Not saying to do so would be bad, but its more involved. Leading Edge Games went with Rank & XP in each skill (combat is a skill) That way, the more you shot & hit the better you get at shooting, but if you dont gather any experience in LockPicking you will stay at 1st in it
#8 TheRealOrion May 19, 2009 18:12:05	What I like about class systems is that you get new stuff at every level. But having «character points» to spend, as you wish, when you rise in level that's sweet. Opens up all kinds of avenues. «Superpowers» could be built with increments. Each step giving more flexibility of use as you spend CPs to level them up! You've looked at Phoenix right? You just described pretty much exactly how it works. Free too. Just sayin'.
#9 atanakar May 19, 2009 20:19:41	You've looked at Phoenix right? You just described pretty much exactly how it works. Free too. Just sayin'. :OMG! Clearly a case of cryptophagia! Posting an idea you think original when it actually comes from somewhere else... My apologies
#10 TheRealOrion May 19, 2009 20:55:33	Oh, no need to apologise at all! I'm just saying that if that's what you're looking for, then I have it for you in a convenient PDF. Please, feel free to download and play it. Or just download and mine it for ideas. S'funny, actually, my original impulse was to strip it way down, just the "expansion" parts that would layer on top of d20M, but once I had classes, I knew it was practically a standalone game. I almost want to cut it down sometimes, just bonus feats, powers, and the rules to use them. I mean, I'm saying, I just love the idea of d20M as a modular system. You want fantasy rules? Plug 'em in. You want superhero rules? Got 'em right here. You want cyberpunk? Here ya go. Anyway, I digress. Classless system you say?
#11 backstabbist May 19, 2009 22:12:09	One problem with a truely caseless character progression is extracting misfires oh... CLASSless... thats different I think we can refer to the two plans as Classless Creation, and Classless Advancement. Neither has a book full of classes to pick from. Yeah, the modular nature is good stuff, you just have to watch out for adding on the broken future modular stuff ;)
#12 atanakar May 20, 2009 9:51:13	Oh, no need to apologise at all! I'm just saying that if that's what you're looking for, then I have it for you in a convenient PDF. Please, feel free to download and play it. Or just download and mine it for ideas. S'funny, actually, my original impulse was to strip it way down, just the "expansion" parts that would layer on top of d20M, but once I had classes, I knew it was practically a standalone game. I almost want to cut it down sometimes, just bonus feats, powers, and the rules to use them. I mean, I'm saying, I just love the idea of d20M as a modular system. You want fantasy rules? Plug 'em in. You want superhero rules? Got 'em right here. You want cyberpunk? Here ya go. Anyway, I digress. Classless system you say? Actually at this point I'm looking at all options while I develop my take on 4E Modern... but this discussion is not for this thread.
#13 backstabbist May 20, 2009 10:28:27	well, you're right that this particular thread is not the place to delve & tangent into your project, but its not like we cant pass a reference to it or suggest stuff for your project. If you were to run a brainstorming session for applying my Classless Creation idea in your project, you'd have to consider point value of the 1/2Level in Combat Saves and Skills... separate them out to buying BAB/Def/Save/Skill 'per 10level' progressions: Weak3 Med5 Strong7 Given the +5 nature of taking skills, the increased buying power in BABetc is offset by the +5skill Given the No New Skills nature, this too makes buying skills more valuable, so maybe 2points per skill... maybe even turn the +5 into a Weak3-Med5-Strong7 progression like the others thats some stuff to consider discussing in your project thread: Change all the '1/2 Level' stuff and the skill+5 to Weak3-Med5-Strong7 10level progressions