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Need GM Advice

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
maninthehat
May 20, 2010 22:54:18 Alright, I am running a D20 Future campaign; and I am having a small issue with one of my players. This issue is summed up simply with; Law Enforcment.

This player has DM/GM'd various games (World of Darkness, D20 Modern, Ad&D 3rd/3.5 and 4th edition, Savage World, etc.) and in his campaigns law enforcment; police, town guard - whatever are kind of non-responsive. Just outside of shooting someone in front of a cop, which would result in a brief fight that if you won would end the entire situation, and they would never pursue or investigate. You might have to take the initive to burn the building to destroy all evidence (doesn't work that way, I know.) and there would naturally be no witnesses.

Well thing is he is playing in a campaign I'm running and I'm fairly certain I failed to get it accross tho him that law enforcment isn't blind, retarded and useless. I say this because he is playing a murderous cultist. I'm not sure how he'll fit into the group for one thing and second I'm dreading the inevitable 'you're under arrest'.

In a D&D 3.5 game I ran, in the middle of a tavern and city watchmen hesliced the cheek of the innkeeper for insulting his friend. Challenged him to the death, and was shocked that he was being arrested.

In a previous D20 Future game a merchent called his character insane; so to prove he wasn't he snuck into the shop after hours and planted explosives inside it.

He was amazed he was arrested for attempted murder, and the illegal detonation of an explosive, damaging personal property, reckless endangerment etc.

So how do I handle the characters he plays to g because he always plays in a style of I am the law.

Or am I just doomed to arrest him?

Any other GM with this style of player?
#2
DwarfFighter
May 21, 2010 6:47:57
Perhaps you could bring the point home by running a one-off encounter where the PCs work alongside local law-enforcement to solve a mystery?

Even if he just hangs around you can at least have the law enforcement personnel report in with statements from witnesses, forensic evidence and even do som deductive reasoning right in front of him.

GM (Lt. McCracken): "Ok, from what we've gathered your friend was murdered. Our perp is a 6 ft. to 6 ft. 2 in. tall Caucasian male in with a prominent facial tattoo and likely wore a black raincoat. We're checking the dumpsters in the area in case he ditched this. The motorcycle he used was found in the same area it was stolen, so we've got people checking for witnesses in that area. We've got finger-prints and are running them right now. Oh, here it comes. Our prime suspect is one Noah "Ironface" Antvil. Here's his last known address: a block away from where we found the motorcycle. SWAT is on the way - he's considered armed and dangerous. We'll keep you posted."

-DF

#3
backstabbist
May 21, 2010 9:48:10 the primary difference between d20 modern and d20Future regarding law,
is that d20 Future has the entire modern CSI TVshow lab in a case in the back of the patrol car,
and all tests get answers in 1-10 rounds.

FUTURE: stuff is better
including law enforcement forensic science

if the cops need a warrant to review the satalite tapes of your house and where you drove the night of the murder, including the IR tape of you going into a buiolding with 3 hot bodies and leaving with 3 cold ones.... well, they can get that warrant and watch the tape of you killing them folks

Why are you being taped?
YOU are not, EVERYONE is because the capability of the future satalites affords such economy of scan that there is really no reason NOT to just tape everywhere at all times. What about your privacy? Thats where the warrant to SEE the tapes comes in

you dont have to play the future as having an insanely more efficient law enforcement science,
but we shouldnt assume that the future cops will be without what we have now.

Right to Privacy is assuming one already has Right To Rights,
such a terran thing to think...
"Welcome to mars, on your knees peasant when Skycaste enter the room"
#4
maninthehat
May 21, 2010 20:35:12 He has experienced law enforcment; in a previous future campaign where he was arrested. He ended up making a new character because he was givin like 48 years.

And as for the 'right to rights'; everyone is clear that the alien species who has the most influence on the galactic policy in regards to law enforcment and police work are highly militirzed. Litterly to the point that they uhave the military patrol in each system double as the primary overwatch of each colony and stations police force. Space Stations and colonies employ a small sercurity force for general peace keeping, but homocides are handled by each colony or stations appointed military investigator. Even the local magistrates and judges recieve final approval by the fleet commander in each sector.

And the set policy is very similar to earth; innocent until proven guilty. Except if you resist arrest or flee from an officer; in which case a special session is held to determine if you are automatically guilty of the crimes in question or just guilty of the offense of failure to abide a superior/officers instruction and 'fleeing'.

Despite the fact that privacy laws are also more relaxed, to the point that camera footage and overhead sattelite imagery is all public domain. Unless it happens on your private property (exceptionaly small areas on most Space Stations) the police can use it against you without a warrent.

Of course the exact law and punishment depend on what speices territory you are in.

For the Administration and Thorion territories whipping and various other beatings are legal punishments for certain crimes.
#5
TheRealOrion
May 21, 2010 21:11:23 I would encourage you to seek a solution to this problem outside the game. Talk to your friend directly, person to person. Tell him that he consistently plays characters that force you, as a GM trying to run a vaguely consistent world, to arrest his murdering ass. If his power fantasy Sin City: Future, then he has every right to indulge that fantasy, but not in your game. You're not running that kind of game. Don't criticise his fantasy of choice. Don't make it personal. Just make it about the way you run your game: with enough verisimilitude that cops aren't, as you say, blind, deaf, and stupid.

It is my humble opinion that trying to solve a problem like this in the game is basically passive-aggressive. As GM, you don't quite have the stomach to look your friend in the eye and appear to criticise his personal behaviour or, even worse, his morality, so you try to subtly pursuede him to change his behaviour in the game by having the game world come down around his ears, but that just feeds his "me against the world" attitude, and on and on it goes. Believe me, I have lived what you're describing and heard it described a million times by other gamers. This is just a thing that some players do, and the only way to end it is to talk to the guy directly. Just be honest and clear. He seems to want to play a kind of game that you don't want to run, that isn't fun for you.

Give that a shot.
#6
maninthehat
May 21, 2010 22:37:39 Well I had an in depth discussion with my player; and have decided to allow the character to be run. Apparently the idea behind the entire character is a struggling psycopath seeking some form of redemption. To most outward apperance an entierly sane person.

This player and one of my others apparently paired up and spent a solid week perfecting the backstory for their sibling characters. Its a pretty in depth idea, with the sane sibling looking out for the crazy one. I've taken sometime as well, and shouldn't have diffculty with his character since I have discovered he doesn't intend to kill indiscrimnatly.

Of course now I get a whole new, and worse, problem. Apparently one of the other players has become quite outspoken and beligerent in regards to this character. He seems to have gotten excessivly opinated in regards to this character idea being stupid. That its a stupid idea, and that for someone to acctually play it is stupid.

Even so far as to say openly that I am stupid for letting the character be played. It breaks the mold and doesn't fit in the group. (This from the guy who pleaded to be a shadowkind werewolf, techno mage, mad scientist, feral crazed Russian engineer. Seriously.)

This game is REALLY starting to get off to a bad start.

Oh as for the new problem; rational discussion is falling apart as he refuses to be wrong, right or anything other then a problem until a character more to his liking is selected. The problem is, is that he is the ride to and from the game for the player of the character he hates.

Ever just feel like canceling a game out of fear of the overwhelming neanderthal antics?
#7
maninthehat
May 21, 2010 22:49:58 Also I figured out the OOC reason for the character; its the most challenging archtype for my player to be. Basically he is trying to expand his roleplaying experience by attempting to balance a psycho.

A psycho by as near as I can tell suffers from a sever case of Borderline Personality Disorder and Disassociation Disorder.

Now if only my new problem player would get off his "my characters are so much better".
#8
TheRealOrion
May 21, 2010 22:55:31 Sounds like you need to tell your players to find a way to play nice with each other or else you refuse to run the game. It's up to them; find a compromise or find another GM.
#9
maninthehat
May 21, 2010 23:22:56 I just found out that in the previous game P1 (the cultist in this game) and P2(the verbal fellow) didn't see eye to eye on P1's character from that game as well.

Apparently P2 has a habit of sorts of looking down at P1's characters and ideas. He is also apparently very verbal and outspoken with his opinions about P1's characters.

Yet when P1 GM's P2 gets along perfectly and enjoys all the NPC characters, no matter what. Its like P2 is damned determined to be the better RP'er between them and will not let it up if their both players.

Annoying part is; P1, P2 and myself are high school buddies. I 've always known that P2 could be competitive even a little childish if things don't go his way, but this is getting really out of hand. Problem is P2 demands to be heard and 'respected'(by respect he means have it his way it would seem) or he'll stop coming. That cuts P1 out of the game since he depends on P2 to get to the game.

So does anyone have any advice? Mediating between these two is failing; and I have no way to pick up P1, meaning I need P2 to get P1 to the game and then back home. (Over an hour drive)
#10
TheRealOrion
May 22, 2010 0:33:56 It sounds like one of those guys (I can't tell who is who) is being a manipulative prick. He knows he's someone's ride, and he knows that everyone wants to play, so he's threatening to kill the game if you don't comply with his preferences. I say, call him on it. Tell him that if he wants to ruin everyone's fun, he can. He has that ability and he can make that choice, but it'll be him doing it, not that other player. He also can't dictate other players' choices. He simply doesn't have that ability, no matter how much he stamps his feet and holds his breath.

It sounds like he has a particular "vision" of how role-playing should be done, and he's pissed off that someone else is doing it a different way. I've had to deal with players like that, and I was a GM like that (sad but true). If he can let go of his "vision" and just let other people have their fun their way, then he might enjoy the game, but while he's policing everyone else's choices, he's just ruining his own experience.

That's how I see it, anyway.
#11
maninthehat
May 22, 2010 12:44:39 This game isn't getting off to a very good start at this rate; but I have managed to get the 'douche' player to suck it up and deal with it.
#12
maninthehat
May 24, 2010 2:27:15 Well I no longer need GM advice; after a lot of thinking and one to many problems stimming from like 5/6 of my players, it just isn't worth doing anymore. At least not at this time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 maninthehat May 20, 2010 22:54:18	Alright, I am running a D20 Future campaign; and I am having a small issue with one of my players. This issue is summed up simply with; Law Enforcment. This player has DM/GM'd various games (World of Darkness, D20 Modern, Ad&D 3rd/3.5 and 4th edition, Savage World, etc.) and in his campaigns law enforcment; police, town guard - whatever are kind of non-responsive. Just outside of shooting someone in front of a cop, which would result in a brief fight that if you won would end the entire situation, and they would never pursue or investigate. You might have to take the initive to burn the building to destroy all evidence (doesn't work that way, I know.) and there would naturally be no witnesses. Well thing is he is playing in a campaign I'm running and I'm fairly certain I failed to get it accross tho him that law enforcment isn't blind, retarded and useless. I say this because he is playing a murderous cultist. I'm not sure how he'll fit into the group for one thing and second I'm dreading the inevitable 'you're under arrest'. In a D&D 3.5 game I ran, in the middle of a tavern and city watchmen hesliced the cheek of the innkeeper for insulting his friend. Challenged him to the death, and was shocked that he was being arrested. In a previous D20 Future game a merchent called his character insane; so to prove he wasn't he snuck into the shop after hours and planted explosives inside it. He was amazed he was arrested for attempted murder, and the illegal detonation of an explosive, damaging personal property, reckless endangerment etc. So how do I handle the characters he plays to g because he always plays in a style of I am the law. Or am I just doomed to arrest him? Any other GM with this style of player?
#2 DwarfFighter May 21, 2010 6:47:57	Perhaps you could bring the point home by running a one-off encounter where the PCs work alongside local law-enforcement to solve a mystery? Even if he just hangs around you can at least have the law enforcement personnel report in with statements from witnesses, forensic evidence and even do som deductive reasoning right in front of him. GM (Lt. McCracken): "Ok, from what we've gathered your friend was murdered. Our perp is a 6 ft. to 6 ft. 2 in. tall Caucasian male in with a prominent facial tattoo and likely wore a black raincoat. We're checking the dumpsters in the area in case he ditched this. The motorcycle he used was found in the same area it was stolen, so we've got people checking for witnesses in that area. We've got finger-prints and are running them right now. Oh, here it comes. Our prime suspect is one Noah "Ironface" Antvil. Here's his last known address: a block away from where we found the motorcycle. SWAT is on the way - he's considered armed and dangerous. We'll keep you posted." -DF
#3 backstabbist May 21, 2010 9:48:10	the primary difference between d20 modern and d20Future regarding law, is that d20 Future has the entire modern CSI TVshow lab in a case in the back of the patrol car, and all tests get answers in 1-10 rounds. FUTURE: stuff is better including law enforcement forensic science if the cops need a warrant to review the satalite tapes of your house and where you drove the night of the murder, including the IR tape of you going into a buiolding with 3 hot bodies and leaving with 3 cold ones.... well, they can get that warrant and watch the tape of you killing them folks Why are you being taped? YOU are not, EVERYONE is because the capability of the future satalites affords such economy of scan that there is really no reason NOT to just tape everywhere at all times. What about your privacy? Thats where the warrant to SEE the tapes comes in you dont have to play the future as having an insanely more efficient law enforcement science, but we shouldnt assume that the future cops will be without what we have now. Right to Privacy is assuming one already has Right To Rights, such a terran thing to think... "Welcome to mars, on your knees peasant when Skycaste enter the room"
#4 maninthehat May 21, 2010 20:35:12	He has experienced law enforcment; in a previous future campaign where he was arrested. He ended up making a new character because he was givin like 48 years. And as for the 'right to rights'; everyone is clear that the alien species who has the most influence on the galactic policy in regards to law enforcment and police work are highly militirzed. Litterly to the point that they uhave the military patrol in each system double as the primary overwatch of each colony and stations police force. Space Stations and colonies employ a small sercurity force for general peace keeping, but homocides are handled by each colony or stations appointed military investigator. Even the local magistrates and judges recieve final approval by the fleet commander in each sector. And the set policy is very similar to earth; innocent until proven guilty. Except if you resist arrest or flee from an officer; in which case a special session is held to determine if you are automatically guilty of the crimes in question or just guilty of the offense of failure to abide a superior/officers instruction and 'fleeing'. Despite the fact that privacy laws are also more relaxed, to the point that camera footage and overhead sattelite imagery is all public domain. Unless it happens on your private property (exceptionaly small areas on most Space Stations) the police can use it against you without a warrent. Of course the exact law and punishment depend on what speices territory you are in. For the Administration and Thorion territories whipping and various other beatings are legal punishments for certain crimes.
#5 TheRealOrion May 21, 2010 21:11:23	I would encourage you to seek a solution to this problem outside the game. Talk to your friend directly, person to person. Tell him that he consistently plays characters that force you, as a GM trying to run a vaguely consistent world, to arrest his murdering ass. If his power fantasy Sin City: Future, then he has every right to indulge that fantasy, but not in your game. You're not running that kind of game. Don't criticise his fantasy of choice. Don't make it personal. Just make it about the way you run your game: with enough verisimilitude that cops aren't, as you say, blind, deaf, and stupid. It is my humble opinion that trying to solve a problem like this in the game is basically passive-aggressive. As GM, you don't quite have the stomach to look your friend in the eye and appear to criticise his personal behaviour or, even worse, his morality, so you try to subtly pursuede him to change his behaviour in the game by having the game world come down around his ears, but that just feeds his "me against the world" attitude, and on and on it goes. Believe me, I have lived what you're describing and heard it described a million times by other gamers. This is just a thing that some players do, and the only way to end it is to talk to the guy directly. Just be honest and clear. He seems to want to play a kind of game that you don't want to run, that isn't fun for you. Give that a shot.
#6 maninthehat May 21, 2010 22:37:39	Well I had an in depth discussion with my player; and have decided to allow the character to be run. Apparently the idea behind the entire character is a struggling psycopath seeking some form of redemption. To most outward apperance an entierly sane person. This player and one of my others apparently paired up and spent a solid week perfecting the backstory for their sibling characters. Its a pretty in depth idea, with the sane sibling looking out for the crazy one. I've taken sometime as well, and shouldn't have diffculty with his character since I have discovered he doesn't intend to kill indiscrimnatly. Of course now I get a whole new, and worse, problem. Apparently one of the other players has become quite outspoken and beligerent in regards to this character. He seems to have gotten excessivly opinated in regards to this character idea being stupid. That its a stupid idea, and that for someone to acctually play it is stupid. Even so far as to say openly that I am stupid for letting the character be played. It breaks the mold and doesn't fit in the group. (This from the guy who pleaded to be a shadowkind werewolf, techno mage, mad scientist, feral crazed Russian engineer. Seriously.) This game is REALLY starting to get off to a bad start. Oh as for the new problem; rational discussion is falling apart as he refuses to be wrong, right or anything other then a problem until a character more to his liking is selected. The problem is, is that he is the ride to and from the game for the player of the character he hates. Ever just feel like canceling a game out of fear of the overwhelming neanderthal antics?
#7 maninthehat May 21, 2010 22:49:58	Also I figured out the OOC reason for the character; its the most challenging archtype for my player to be. Basically he is trying to expand his roleplaying experience by attempting to balance a psycho. A psycho by as near as I can tell suffers from a sever case of Borderline Personality Disorder and Disassociation Disorder. Now if only my new problem player would get off his "my characters are so much better".
#8 TheRealOrion May 21, 2010 22:55:31	Sounds like you need to tell your players to find a way to play nice with each other or else you refuse to run the game. It's up to them; find a compromise or find another GM.
#9 maninthehat May 21, 2010 23:22:56	I just found out that in the previous game P1 (the cultist in this game) and P2(the verbal fellow) didn't see eye to eye on P1's character from that game as well. Apparently P2 has a habit of sorts of looking down at P1's characters and ideas. He is also apparently very verbal and outspoken with his opinions about P1's characters. Yet when P1 GM's P2 gets along perfectly and enjoys all the NPC characters, no matter what. Its like P2 is damned determined to be the better RP'er between them and will not let it up if their both players. Annoying part is; P1, P2 and myself are high school buddies. I 've always known that P2 could be competitive even a little childish if things don't go his way, but this is getting really out of hand. Problem is P2 demands to be heard and 'respected'(by respect he means have it his way it would seem) or he'll stop coming. That cuts P1 out of the game since he depends on P2 to get to the game. So does anyone have any advice? Mediating between these two is failing; and I have no way to pick up P1, meaning I need P2 to get P1 to the game and then back home. (Over an hour drive)
#10 TheRealOrion May 22, 2010 0:33:56	It sounds like one of those guys (I can't tell who is who) is being a manipulative prick. He knows he's someone's ride, and he knows that everyone wants to play, so he's threatening to kill the game if you don't comply with his preferences. I say, call him on it. Tell him that if he wants to ruin everyone's fun, he can. He has that ability and he can make that choice, but it'll be him doing it, not that other player. He also can't dictate other players' choices. He simply doesn't have that ability, no matter how much he stamps his feet and holds his breath. It sounds like he has a particular "vision" of how role-playing should be done, and he's pissed off that someone else is doing it a different way. I've had to deal with players like that, and I was a GM like that (sad but true). If he can let go of his "vision" and just let other people have their fun their way, then he might enjoy the game, but while he's policing everyone else's choices, he's just ruining his own experience. That's how I see it, anyway.
#11 maninthehat May 22, 2010 12:44:39	This game isn't getting off to a very good start at this rate; but I have managed to get the 'douche' player to suck it up and deal with it.
#12 maninthehat May 24, 2010 2:27:15	Well I no longer need GM advice; after a lot of thinking and one to many problems stimming from like 5/6 of my players, it just isn't worth doing anymore. At least not at this time.