New melee feat for brawlers - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

New melee feat for brawlers

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 16:04:00 My understanding of melee combat is this: If an 'unarmed' person is attacking an armed person, the armed person gets an attack of opportunity.

I understand the rationale behind this, but wouldn't persons highly trained in unarmed combat be able to fight in a manner to avoid that AO? My proposed is a new feat, and wanted to get input from more experienced gamers:

Defensive Streetfighting. Prerequistes: Brawl, Base attack bonus +3, Streetfighting. Person knows how to block and avoid blows from deadly weapons.

Benefit: a character with this feat is not subject to an attack of opportunity from an armed opponent in melee, i.e., character is considered armed for AO purposes. This feat does not allow character to avoid AO's from other actions, such as spellcasting in melee, etc. A character with this feat still only deals non-lethal damage unless armed with a deadly weapon and/or has a feat that allows them to deal lethal damage with bare hands.

Thoughts?
#2
TheRealOrion
Mar 15, 2008 17:43:24 Unless I'm missing something, this problem is covered by Combat Martial Arts.

Combat Martial Arts

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks.

Normal: Without this feat, a character deals only 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Unarmed attacks normally provoke attacks of opportunity, and unarmed combatants cannot normally make attacks of opportunity.

Yes?
#3
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 18:20:40 It is, but can you combine brawling with combat martial arts, and if so, how? The two feats seem to have different abilities:

Brawling allows 1d6 damage, but that is NON-lethal. It also gives +1 on unarmed attacks, but armed opponents get an AO.

Combat Martial arts 'only' allows 1d4 damage, but that is lethal, and no attack bonus. It is considered armed, so no AO for opponents.

Also, each feat is on a different tree and leads to different improved abilities and feats.

If someone who had brawling took combat martial arts, would they also get an extra +1 on attack rolls, be able to deal 1d6 LETHAL damage AND be considered armed for attack purposes? If they took improved brawling, would their LETHAL damage then go up to 1d8, and would they also get +2 on attack rolls?

If the answer is yes, you can combine them, then my feat is not needed.

However, I got the impression that brawling and combat martial arts are supposed to be separate. While a character may be able to have both feats, I was under the impression you can't combine the abilities: doing so seems to create a very powerful character and potentially unbalance the game.

Thoughts and comments?
#4
brokenoakleys
Mar 15, 2008 19:37:32 This quote from the 8/31/06 bullet points suggests that I was right about the brawling and combat martial arts feats not 'stacking':

"The Brawl feat is separate from Combat Martial Arts, and the two don't stack. Things that boost unarmed damage that are not related to Combat Martial Arts or the martial artist class can boost the base damage of a Brawl attack in the same way they boost normal, unarmed attacks."
#5
TheRealOrion
Mar 16, 2008 13:16:00 Of course they don't "stack." They refer to entirely different things. Brawl is for dealing non-lethal damage; Combat Martial Arts is for dealing 'real' damage. The only function of your proposed feat is to combine two feats into one. A trained hand-to-hand fighter should probably have both of those feats. Simple as that.
#6
brokenoakleys
Mar 16, 2008 15:39:25 Actually, Combat Martial Arts allows you to deal either 1d4 lethal damage or
1d4 non-lethal damage, and you are always considered armed for AO purposes. Thus a Combat martial artist can do non-lethal damage and have the extra benefit of not being subject to AO's from their opponent.

The function of my proposed feat is to allow brawlers, who can deal non-lethal damage only (unlike CMA's who can deal either one) to avoid opponent's AO's. I am NOT proposing that they be able to deal lethal damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 16:04:00	My understanding of melee combat is this: If an 'unarmed' person is attacking an armed person, the armed person gets an attack of opportunity. I understand the rationale behind this, but wouldn't persons highly trained in unarmed combat be able to fight in a manner to avoid that AO? My proposed is a new feat, and wanted to get input from more experienced gamers: Defensive Streetfighting. Prerequistes: Brawl, Base attack bonus +3, Streetfighting. Person knows how to block and avoid blows from deadly weapons. Benefit: a character with this feat is not subject to an attack of opportunity from an armed opponent in melee, i.e., character is considered armed for AO purposes. This feat does not allow character to avoid AO's from other actions, such as spellcasting in melee, etc. A character with this feat still only deals non-lethal damage unless armed with a deadly weapon and/or has a feat that allows them to deal lethal damage with bare hands. Thoughts?
#2 TheRealOrion Mar 15, 2008 17:43:24	Unless I'm missing something, this problem is covered by Combat Martial Arts. Combat Martial Arts Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1. Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks. Normal: Without this feat, a character deals only 1d3 points of nonlethal damage. Unarmed attacks normally provoke attacks of opportunity, and unarmed combatants cannot normally make attacks of opportunity. Yes?
#3 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 18:20:40	It is, but can you combine brawling with combat martial arts, and if so, how? The two feats seem to have different abilities: Brawling allows 1d6 damage, but that is NON-lethal. It also gives +1 on unarmed attacks, but armed opponents get an AO. Combat Martial arts 'only' allows 1d4 damage, but that is lethal, and no attack bonus. It is considered armed, so no AO for opponents. Also, each feat is on a different tree and leads to different improved abilities and feats. If someone who had brawling took combat martial arts, would they also get an extra +1 on attack rolls, be able to deal 1d6 LETHAL damage AND be considered armed for attack purposes? If they took improved brawling, would their LETHAL damage then go up to 1d8, and would they also get +2 on attack rolls? If the answer is yes, you can combine them, then my feat is not needed. However, I got the impression that brawling and combat martial arts are supposed to be separate. While a character may be able to have both feats, I was under the impression you can't combine the abilities: doing so seems to create a very powerful character and potentially unbalance the game. Thoughts and comments?
#4 brokenoakleys Mar 15, 2008 19:37:32	This quote from the 8/31/06 bullet points suggests that I was right about the brawling and combat martial arts feats not 'stacking': "The Brawl feat is separate from Combat Martial Arts, and the two don't stack. Things that boost unarmed damage that are not related to Combat Martial Arts or the martial artist class can boost the base damage of a Brawl attack in the same way they boost normal, unarmed attacks."
#5 TheRealOrion Mar 16, 2008 13:16:00	Of course they don't "stack." They refer to entirely different things. Brawl is for dealing non-lethal damage; Combat Martial Arts is for dealing 'real' damage. The only function of your proposed feat is to combine two feats into one. A trained hand-to-hand fighter should probably have both of those feats. Simple as that.
#6 brokenoakleys Mar 16, 2008 15:39:25	Actually, Combat Martial Arts allows you to deal either 1d4 lethal damage or 1d4 non-lethal damage, and you are always considered armed for AO purposes. Thus a Combat martial artist can do non-lethal damage and have the extra benefit of not being subject to AO's from their opponent. The function of my proposed feat is to allow brawlers, who can deal non-lethal damage only (unlike CMA's who can deal either one) to avoid opponent's AO's. I am NOT proposing that they be able to deal lethal damage.