Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 04, 2008 19:59:41	Well, actually, I'm not sure if it's new or if I saw it somewhere else and now I just think I thought of it. :P Anyhow, here was a general idea for the system: Whenever a character takes non-leathal damage, he must make a fortitude save equal to the non-lethal damage dealt to him or be dazed for the next round. For every two consecutive rounds a character is struck for non-lethal damage, the DC raises by an additional +1 until the character rests for one minute. Once a character is dazed, he must make a save following all the same rules as before except that if he fails he is knocked unconscious. Critical hits automatically daze the target, and the target must instead make a fortitude save against falling unconscious. Naturally, this begs the question: why doesn't lethal damage threaten a knockout on every single hit? My answer is that I'm lazy right now. I just finished my shift at work and I'm kind of tired... Things would also get kinda bogged down if every hit triggered a fortitude save against dazing and unconsciousness. Alternatively, you could give this effect to all bludgeoning weapons, but that'd still slow things down. This system also makes Knockout Punch kind of powerful, but at the same time, it also makes it more easily possible to enact that wonderful scene from so many stealth movies/games, where the hero drops down on his enemy and neutralizes him in one hit. What do you think? If you guys have any other ideas, I'd like to see them.
#2 winternova Apr 06, 2008 17:25:10	I like the cumulative +1 modifier, but I myself have thrown that out in favor of another system that someone suggested on the board. Damage works as usual, but heroes have a non-lethal HP total equal to their massive damage threshold. After about a minute of rest, they recover these HP.
#3 tema69 Apr 06, 2008 17:43:09	I like the cumulative +1 modifier, but I myself have thrown that out in favor of another system that someone suggested on the board. Damage works as usual, but heroes have a non-lethal HP total equal to their massive damage threshold. After about a minute of rest, they recover these HP. So, guyA has MAS12 and 32 hit points. I have my trusty 1911 .45 cal, which deals 2d6. I have Brawl, which deals 1d6. Why would I wan't to shoot at him when I can simply hit him in the face a few times and them blow his head of as he lays unconscious on the floor? What's wrong with the D&D nonlethal? I think we oughta make a good system that allows characters to use melee attacks to subdue enemies silently (as we see in all movies). I think Master_Vega's is a good idea. It just needs a little work.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 06, 2008 18:01:17	So you think that my idea is probably best saved for sneak-attacks, or did you mean it has potential as a non-lethal combat system? As the latter, it seems a bit powerful to me, unless everything else is improved similarly. Any ideas on balancing my system? Thanks for the feedback, by the way.
#5 winternova Apr 06, 2008 18:17:19	So, guyA has MAS12 and 32 hit points. I have my trusty 1911 .45 cal, which deals 2d6. I have Brawl, which deals 1d6. Why would I want to shoot at him when I can simply hit him in the face a few times and them blow his head of as he lays unconscious on the floor? If you can get to him, then by all means, clobber him. Hell, it'll save you a few bullets. Vega, the +1 cumulative bonus system and the threshold = nonlethal HP systems are both quite viable. I use the latter, and one of my players (and would be DM) is preparing to test the two of them to see which one feels better in his campaign. For some reason, I just don't like the stock D&D nonlethal rules any better than I like the d20m nonlethal rules.
#6 brokenoakleys Apr 07, 2008 21:47:04	Sounds like an interesting system. A couple of questions: How do you plan on mixing lethal and non-lethal damage, or do you? If a character takes 6 pts. non-lethal from a brawler and 5 pts. lethal from being hit with a crowbar in the same round, is the save 11 or 6? One possible solution is to say anyone who has taken ANY lethal damage takes -2 on their save. I understand the +1 is cumulative if you get hit in consecutive rounds. How about the damage? If I get hit in round one for 2 points non lethal and 2 points non- lethal in round two, is my save a 3 (2 non-lethal + 1 for being hit twice in a row) or 5 (4 points cumulative damage plus 1 for being hit two times in a row)? What would you think of modifying your rule to say anyone who failed their save by five or more has more severe penalties, like: dazed 1d4 rounds, being stunned, or even going unconcious? I know you said you hadn't thought about this yet, but if you are going to make people do saving throws for non-lethal or be daze, shouldn't the same apply for lethal damage? Taking a bullet to the arm can't be fun, and I could see it throwing people for a loop. Wouldn't that change the entire concept of hit points?
#7 brokenoakleys Apr 07, 2008 21:48:54	To answer Tema69's question: uh...because he's 40 feet away, and has a katana in one hand and a desert eagle in the other?
#8 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2008 0:00:44	Sounds like an interesting system. A couple of questions: How do you plan on mixing lethal and non-lethal damage, or do you? If a character takes 6 pts. non-lethal from a brawler and 5 pts. lethal from being hit with a crowbar in the same round, is the save 11 or 6? One possible solution is to say anyone who has taken ANY lethal damage takes -2 on their save. Under the current system, you would make a save each time you were hit. If that applied to lethal damage, in your case the character would have to make a DC6 fortitude save for the brawler's hit, and then a DC5 fortitude save from the crowbar. I understand the +1 is cumulative if you get hit in consecutive rounds. How about the damage? If I get hit in round one for 2 points non lethal and 2 points non- lethal in round two, is my save a 3 (2 non-lethal + 1 for being hit twice in a row) or 5 (4 points cumulative damage plus 1 for being hit two times in a row)? Two consecutive rounds raises the DC by one. Put plainly: each individual DC only goes up after the second round of taking non-lethal damage. If the character were to get hit the next round after that, the DC would not raise until after the next round, if he was struck for non-lethal damage in the next round. This is so that characters aren't worn out too quickly; he's already going to need to make a few saves per round in a brawl. Anyhow, this system is based off of the typical Modern non-lethal damage system, where non-lethal damage goes away at the end of the round. I wanted to give it a more boxing-esque feel, where stamina comes into play early and is pressed hard from the beginning of the match, so this system came to mind. Come to think of it, this system reminds me of Call of Duty 4, Halo 2&3, Gears of War, and just about every other game that forgoes a healthbar in favor of semi-(or very)-unrealistic regeneration. What would you think of modifying your rule to say anyone who failed their save by five or more has more severe penalties, like: dazed 1d4 rounds, being stunned, or even going unconcious? Depending on how vicious of a GM you are, that's fine. However, I'm a bit more forgiving (though I do challenge my players), so I'd probably set the critical failure line at 10 below. Insta-knockouts could be the result of an auto-failure, as critical hits in this system already skip the possibility of dazing and threaten to knockout right off the bat. I know you said you hadn't thought about this yet, but if you are going to make people do saving throws for non-lethal or be daze, shouldn't the same apply for lethal damage? Taking a bullet to the arm can't be fun, and I could see it throwing people for a loop. Wouldn't that change the entire concept of hit points? And this is why I stopped here. I didn't want to break my brain. :P I suppose you could run an entire game like this without keeping track of hitpoints, and instead rolling fortitude saves against damage. It'd certainly make for a much more lethal game, despite the fact that you could technically hold out a lot longer than with an HP system... It'd also give Tough Hero, as well as save-bolstering feats some much-needed attention. If we could find a way to mix both systems, an HP system and the progressive save system, we could come up with something very fun for the people of this board who enjoy a grittier game. Come to think of it, it'd make face-offs against the (currently-underpowered) 2d12 M82 somewhat more realistic. Every shot would provoke a fortitude save that is, on average, 13 and can get as high as 24. Does Backstabbist have anything to say about making guns more lethal? :P EDIT: The other way to use this system, without it becoming a Pandora's Box, is to make it a feat: Sneak Attack Prerequisites: BAB 4, Knockout Punch or Advanced Combat Martial Arts Benefit: Attack a flatfooted foe and force him to make a fortitude save equal to your damage. Extra damage from Feats such as Power Attack, and other abilities adds to the save. Critical hits double the save DC.
#9 tema69 Apr 08, 2008 2:53:31	To answer Tema69's question: uh...because he's 40 feet away, and has a katana in one hand and a desert eagle in the other? TWF with a Large and a Medium weapon should grant enough penalties so I shouldn't have to worry about him hittinh me. - Anyway, we use Blood & Guts Combat Procedures to make our game more grittier (guns do more damage, the save against MAS is equal to the damage you took, you can actually have your leg blown of, etc.)... But we still need a nonlethal system. I think you guys have a good idea here.
#10 backstabbist Apr 08, 2008 3:08:25	Does Backstabbist have anything to say about making guns more lethal? We dont have to make guns lethal. Guns are plenty lethal, we just need to make the game reflect this. ;) The Vega plan of Dazed has some merit. If we apply the Always FortSave DC = Damage, or Dazed that can lead to some harsh fights. Once you get hit you are looking at 30-50% that you lose your next attack... and it can get worse as the brawler combo's you for harder saves. We cant really put this in for guns, it sucks to be a spectator at your own fight... but the kind of spectator that gets shot repeatedly without any counter-action. Perhaps SHAKEN would work, you can do stuff, you just do it poorly (-2). Hows about Non-MAS gunshots, FortSave DC = damage, else Shaken MAS gunshots, FortSave DC= damage to be Dazed/Shaken, Fail = normal MAS penalties This way, anytime you get hit you risk getting some -2's(dazed rymes with phased), but everytime you roll MAS it results in -2's or some personal time with the floor. Does that give you some ideas you can work into your system?
#11 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2008 10:14:48	Tema -- Thanks. Here's hoping we can make this thing work. Backstabbist -- That's a great idea. Not that I have any experience in the matter, but Shaken sounds like a good way to represent shock. I think the rules you made work just fine as they are... and if no one minds the idea of rolling a fort save against every attack, then I suppose we're okay. This does kinda screw over the mental classes, though, 'specially Smart Hero. I suppose they'll have to get trickier in combat.
#12 backstabbist Apr 08, 2008 11:53:29	I cite Razoreface: Try getting shot less. I really dont feel compelled to ease combat for the non-combat classes. Besides, Smarts are not mandated to make Con their dump stat ;), that would be Str. Smart: I designed a little machine to open tight jar lids. Charismatic: Oh, I asked Mongo to open it for me. Dedicated: I can open jars with my mind. Charismatic: Oh shut up with that already! Yes it was a good movie, but its time to let it go. and if no one minds the idea of rolling a fort save against every attack, then I suppose we're okay. Just point out that they just took a bullet that would flat out kill average folks (9mm~7), and they think it shouldnt even have a 1 in 3 chance of 'bothering' them a little? I'm no physiological giant, but getting shot should at least disturb you for 5 or 6 seconds. Just be glad I'm not suggesting making it a -2 Morale penalty and WILL SAVE.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2008 16:02:35	Oh, I didn't mean it wasn't realistic to imply that getting shot would mess you up. That comment was simply for the fast-play folks who enjoy simplicity and speed over realism... though I suppose this system is about realism, which would mean fast-play doesn't matter as much. :P If I were to play a Smart Hero, or any mental class, with this system, I'd be all about flashbangs and IEDs. You think a bullet messes you up, try explosives. :P Anyhow, see anything else we need to work out rules-wise, or do you think it's ready for playtesting?
#14 backstabbist Apr 08, 2008 20:04:45	Just to be clear on what you're saying: You just want to go with the Shaken MAS thing of mine for guns AND punches? Below MAS: Fort Save DC = Damage, Fail = Shaken Above MAS: Fort Save DC = Damage to be Shaken, Failure = Zero & Unconc Cumulative +1DC for consecutive rounds hits resulting in Shaken We might need some detail text on the Cumulative DC, and duration, but it seems survivable and yet winable at the same time. The more you get hit the worse off you are, but you probably wont be failing MAS all the time at low levels (low damage threat)
#15 zombiegleemax Apr 08, 2008 22:55:15	No, I meant your rules for guns, and my rules for non-lethal (and possibly bludgeoning)... if that doesn't seem too wonky. What do you mean by detail text? Do you mean that we need to make what all affects the accumulative DC clear?
#16 backstabbist Apr 08, 2008 23:52:06	meh.. It could use some fleshing out, but it does seem kinda obvious, and yet open to interpretation to fit any given campaign style. Sure, try a few test fights to see how it plays. I think it will be pretty good, but let us know if you find any hiccups we didnt consider. It will be intersting to see what gaming will be like with easier to save (as well as harder later on in levels) gun MAS, but more detriment from lighter hits & when you make the MAS saves. Fewer mid & high level fights will be quick MAS victories, they're gonna be a couple of shot to bits guys on their last dozen HP and penalties up the wazoo from all the hits
#17 zombiegleemax Apr 10, 2008 10:13:28	Alright, I'll hopefully test it within a week and get back to you guys. Thanks for the help!