New rules for sniper rifles

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

johannixx

Jul 19, 2009 11:40:09
I'm setting up a Weird War II game for my group, and finally getting a chance to playtest all the neat little houserules I came up with, as well as weapon stats. One thing that's always bugged me was how to deal with sniper rifles. Modern simply adds 10' to the weapon's range increment. That sounds good, but when you look at it, there are only little 10' gaps where the 'sniper' rifle shoots better than the 'normal' rifle. Most of the time, they shoot just the same. How should we deal with this? Well, within close range, the accuracy difference just isn't enough to matter, but once you get a little distance, things start to turn in favor of the more accurate rifle.

So, I came up with the following: Sniper rifles ignore the first point of range penalty. In the 2nd range increment, the shooter has only a -1 penalty to hit. In the 3rd, a -3. At the 10th increment, they have a -17 to hit instead of -18. This way sniper rifles will ALWAYS be slightly better than normal infantry rifles, but only at distances where their accuracy and tuning come through.
#2

TheRealOrion

Jul 19, 2009 12:14:48
Isn't a sniper just a rifle built for long-range shooting? I didn't think there was anything inherently different about a "sniping" rifle at all. In which case, just take the rifle with the longest range. Then you add things like a scope and the Far Shot feat, and suddenly now you have a sniper rifle and a sniper using it. The real power of that weapon should be in the person using it, shouldn't it?
#3

johannixx

Jul 19, 2009 13:24:14
Depends on the era. In WWII, a 'sniper' rifle was simply a standard service rifle that was hand-picked for accuracy. Such rifles were fitted with scopes and sent to the front to be issued to snipers. Thus, it should be more accurate than the 'normal' versions of those rifles.

In the modern era, most sniper rifles are still built on the chassis of a normal rifle, but with specialized, precision components and hand-tuned for accuracy. So, a US Marine Corps M40A3 is just a finely-crafted rifle built on a Remington 700 action. But it'll out-shoot an off-the-shelf 700.
#4

TheRealOrion

Jul 19, 2009 16:43:06
This is where we get into problems with the bluntness of d20 rules versus the kinds of precision that come into ballistics technology. If there is no inherent difference between the design of a "rifle" and a "sniper rifle," other than fine precision and some extras (scopes, tripods, etc.), then I don't see why "sniper" rifles should get +10 ft. RI or a lesser range penalty or something like that. Just get a mastercraft rifle and you're done. It's like the never-ending debates about the katana. It's just a masterwork sabre. The part where you make it uber cool is when your character wields it with skill and in the name of justice and niceness and all that good stuff.
#5

Master_Vega

Jul 19, 2009 17:12:00
Though I often err on the side of the gun nut on this sort of discussion, I think Orion is right as far as your weird war campaign goes. If it's the exact same rifle, but just happens to be made better than most others, give it an appropriate mastercraft bonus (+1 seems to be right for most sniper rifles of the era) and call it a day.

Just my PDC2.
#6

johannixx

Jul 19, 2009 17:34:46
Though I often err on the side of the gun nut on this sort of discussion, I think Orion is right as far as your weird war campaign goes. If it's the exact same rifle, but just happens to be made better than most others, give it an appropriate mastercraft bonus (+1 seems to be right for most sniper rifles of the era) and call it a day.

Just my PDC2.

But it's not been made any better, so no masterworking comes into play. Plus, there are no ergonomic improvements to make hitting at close range any easier. I generally consider those to be 'masterworking' a weapon. This is just a normal service rifle that happens to be a little more accurate.
#7

TheRealOrion

Jul 19, 2009 18:19:33
I think you're working with a perhaps too-literal notion of "mastercraft." If the rifle is a little more accurate because of the way it was built, then that's mastercraft. A flat +1 to attack represents that accuracy much more simply than removing a point of range penalty. I'm also unclear on how a gun could be more accurate only at range.

So that's why I think just calling it "mastercraft" is easier.
#8

DwarfFighter

Jul 19, 2009 18:28:43
Well, a character built for sniping will likely take the precision-improving feats such as Weapon Focus, Far Shot and Dead Aim. Add in a custom "sniper" variant of a rifle (e.g. a scope and some mastercraft) you will have +100% Range Increments and anywhere from +1 to +3 mastercraft bonus. Let's asume a +3 bonus and you're already at +6. You'd be making attacks at +0 in the fourth range increment, which is eight times the reach of the standard verions and none of the precision feats. Thats great.

None of these options improve your damage out-put, which is kind of a shame. In fact, having to take a full-round action to aim seriously crams your style.

It's a sad fact that you need to use doble-tap or burst-fire to achieve an increased damage per attack. These are the way to go to deal enough damage to trigger a massive damage check, which is kind of the effect you are looking for with a sniper.

I guess you could apply some sort of house rule that would allow the sniper to convert the "excess" precision into an improved effectiveness of that shot.

How about this: A feat that allows you to apply an effect like Power Attack to a ranged attack. Limit the effect to single-shot attacks against flat-footed opponents (and perhaps those that are denied their Dex bonus to defense?).

Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic included a Sniper Shot feats with a somwhat different effect (increasing crit range instead) at the cost of defense. I guess the idea is that if you stand still aiming, you're gonna get hit when they shoot back.

So how about this:

Sniper Shot
Prerequisites: Defense bonus +1, Dead Aim, Far Shot, Wisdom 13.
On the character’s action, before making attack rolls for a round, the character may choose to subtract a number from defense and add the same number to certain ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed the character’s class bonus to defense. The penalty to defense lasts until the character’s next action. The bonus damage applies to targets that are more than 30 ft. away, and are denied their Dex bonus to defense against the character's attack.

-DF
#9

TheRealOrion

Jul 19, 2009 22:04:47
Here's a thought: sniping makes you flat-footed.

It takes so much concentration and visual focus that you cannot pay attention to anything else at all. Would that be too much?
#10

DwarfFighter

Jul 20, 2009 11:22:00
Interesting proposal. What benefit would you add to the sniper shot?

-DF
#11

TheRealOrion

Jul 20, 2009 13:23:56
How about an instant crit? That might bump the damage up enough to be able to kill with a shot, which is ultimately the goal of a sniper. So while you're nice and comfy in, say, your book depository, lining up your shot, someone could sneak right up behind you and you'd be all but defenseless.

That said, you might not want to bring that option into a game because as soon as PCs can do it, so can vilains. And it's just not much fun to be standing around minding your own business when someone shoots you in the head.
#12

dbay

Jul 20, 2009 15:34:12
D20: Enemy at the Gates. That would be so cool. I mean, it would end as soon as someone landed a hit, but still. For a one-shot it could be epic.

As for a regular campaign, I think there just around enough sniper feats and such. the UA web enhancement includes a sniper PrC, and weapons locker gives small bonuses for things like bipods and adjustable settings. Add it all up and you can seriously kill Nazis (or whatever) from a continent and a half away. The old 2d10 7.62 weapons usually have a really high range inc too.

Also, what's weird war 2? is it ww2 with aliens or psionics or something?
#13

shinfen

Jul 20, 2009 16:51:40
In my opinion you can never really get realistic with sniper combat in a RPG. Killing simple NPCs of low level are the best one might get. Allowing higher damage single shots opens a door that leads to player death to easy. "What is good for the Goose is also good for the Cobra" is my philosophy. More importantly Snipers tend to be mission specific and traditionally loners. Not the best team players. Yes I know many modern armies deploy sniper teams. But if running a game where the players run around and one shots everyone and not do anything else is the plan. I'd rather my players and I go play Halo or some other fps.

One of my players does employ sniper techniques. Using a Anti-material rifle like the Berret .50. He usually uses it against vehicles to a very useful and devastating effect. Otherwise he just pulls out the old trusty MP-5. I do like the Urban Arcana Spec Ops and Sniper classes. I think they are rounded out well. ( I am currently playing a Spec Ops character where I act as the group's point man and scout).

Most importantly beware of mini-maxing. If you look at the sample NPCs in the core book even most of the level 9 NPC's have an average of 45-70 hit points. Definitely one shot one kill if you know what your doing. I have seen over 80 crits from the .50 on good rolls. So as long as players and gm's keep things reasonable a sniper could be effective. I have seen too many groups try and change the damage rules. There is nothing wrong with the damages.

The ranges, however are terrible, if you have ever fired a rifle or any firearm at the range you would know what I mean.

Personally I thinkEnemy at the Gates was a good movie, but it revolved around 2 or 3 central characters who where not all on the same team. I play in groups of 4-6. And remember your only as quiet as the worst person in the groups Stealth checks lol.
#14

TheRealOrion

Jul 20, 2009 17:18:27
The ranges, however are terrible, if you have ever fired a rifle or any firearm at the range you would know what I mean.

I haven't and don't. Care to fill us in?
#15

shinfen

Jul 20, 2009 17:36:39
Only if you give me a cookie!
#16

backstabbist

Jul 20, 2009 22:53:50
What if weapons designated with the Sniper attribute grant the shooter the Pwned Attack feat / feat tree

Depending on the degree of carnage the weapon can inflict,
an appropriate tier Pwned effect could be granted
#17

johannixx

Jul 20, 2009 23:12:50
D20: Enemy at the Gates. That would be so cool. I mean, it would end as soon as someone landed a hit, but still. For a one-shot it could be epic.

As for a regular campaign, I think there just around enough sniper feats and such. the UA web enhancement includes a sniper PrC, and weapons locker gives small bonuses for things like bipods and adjustable settings. Add it all up and you can seriously kill Nazis (or whatever) from a continent and a half away. The old 2d10 7.62 weapons usually have a really high range inc too.

Also, what's weird war 2? is it ww2 with aliens or psionics or something?

Weird War II is a d20 game made by Pinnacle Entertainment Group (PEG). It came out in 2001, and wasn't very successful. Basically, it's similar to Hellboy or Return to Castle Wolfenstein, in that it has basic WWII small-unit combat combined with magic. Magic is commonly thought to be bogus, just as in the real world, but the PCs quickly find out differently after they encounter a Nazi SS Blood Mage during a routine mission...

The game's basically built on the 3.0 D&D engine, with appropriate tweaks for using firearms. I liked the atmosphere, I liked the ruleset better than Modern, and I overhauled it to my liking with a mess of houserules and weapons stats. Now I get to playtest my rules!

Unfortunately, Pinnacle doesn't do d20 games anymore. They went with their own system, Savage Worlds, which I have not examined yet. I like d20.

Weird War II actually has a pretty slick set of sniping abilities, but IMHO they're too overpowered. Basically, the sniper PrC studies a target for one round, then gets to make an attack as a full-round action in the next round. If it hits, it's treated as a coup de grace. That's just too brutal. I changed it to be similar to the Assassin's death attack. There's also an overpowered feat that lets you add your character level to damage if you take a full attack action. I'm going to nerf that to half your character level, and only if you make a single shot as a full-round action.

Cover becomes very important as well, since the max AC benefit you can get is +3 (+1 for a helmet, +2 for a flak jacket that weighs more than it's worth). To keep the PCs alive, I implemented a Modern-type class-based AC progression.

A lot of the abilities in the book are overpowered, I'm guessing to compensate for the lack of magical gear. There is limited spellcasting available via PrCs, but only up to 5th-level spells. Item creation is also extremely limited, basically only charged items are available, and spell selection is also limited. The PCs are going to be hard-pressed to bypass any kind of DR/magic or DR/adamantine, though DR/cold iron and DR/silver are more manageable. Then again, who cares if the critter's got DR when you can nail it with a Panzerfaust that deals 7d8 fire damage
#18

johannixx

Aug 02, 2009 13:32:41
Well, I ran the first adventure, and the first guy to take a shot was the Scout (3rd level Scout, looking towards going for the Sniper PrC). He had a must-hit sniper shot from 305', against a target briefly illuminated by a lit match but otherwise hidden in darkness (German sentry in the woods, lighting a cigarette). I gave the sentry some serious cover bonuses, since he was in teh trees and only visible from the shoulders up. The sniper made an epic shot, but only did 4 damage (rolled 2 and 2 on the 2d10). This allowed the sentry to drop into the brush, climb into the back of the SdKfz-251/1 halftrack and grab the MG-34 mounted on the bow. Before he could fire, the 'French farmer' (a non-military PC) threaded the needle with a WWI-vintage Lebel rifle and nailed the sentry, despite 9/10 cover from the gun shield.
#19

nobodez_here

Aug 04, 2009 0:10:30
Well, I ran the first adventure, and the first guy to take a shot was the Scout (3rd level Scout, looking towards going for the Sniper PrC). He had a must-hit sniper shot from 305', against a target briefly illuminated by a lit match but otherwise hidden in darkness (German sentry in the woods, lighting a cigarette). I gave the sentry some serious cover bonuses, since he was in teh trees and only visible from the shoulders up. The sniper made an epic shot, but only did 4 damage (rolled 2 and 2 on the 2d10). This allowed the sentry to drop into the brush, climb into the back of the SdKfz-251/1 halftrack and grab the MG-34 mounted on the bow. Before he could fire, the 'French farmer' (a non-military PC) threaded the needle with a WWI-vintage Lebel rifle and nailed the sentry, despite 9/10 cover from the gun shield.

Hey, sometimes you're lucky, and sometimes you're not. Of course, real sniper shots (from news stories, movies, and TV) take longer than six seconds to line up anyway (so the extra round of aiming is rather good).