"Non-lethal damage does not affect the target's hit points. Instead, compare the amount of non-lethal damage from an attack to the target's Constitution score. If the amount is less than the target's Constitution score, the target is unaffected by the attack." (page 141 Core Rulebook) (if it exceeds, then you have to make a saving throw or be knocked out).
If I am reading this correctly, you can smack someone all day and do nothing. Given even an 18 strength character with improved brawling can only do a maximum of 12 points of non-lethal damage (assuming no knockout punch), the odds of anyone actually getting knocked out are slim to none.
This doesn't seem to take into account that repeated jabs to the chin and other body parts are going to eventually wear someone out put them down.
Am I reading this correctly? If so, any solutions for the apparent problem? Would it be better to use the DnD rules for non-lethal damage? Any other solutions?
1. I considered non-lethal damage to be applied the same as real damage, only it would knock you unconcious and never kill you. This would sometimes require annotating two different injury tracks (one for lethal and one for non-lethal). When knocked unconcious you are out for 1d4+1 rounds, after which you come back with one fewer non-lethal damage than you have available hit points.
2. When non-lethal damage was dealth that exceeded MDT the character rolls a Fortitude Save, fail and it would knock you unconcious for 1d4+1 rounds, succeed and you are dazed for 1 round. Still apply non-lethal damage as normal.
3. Recovering from non-lethal damage requires 1 full round at rest and a Fortitude Save (DC 15), succeed and remove a number of non-lethal damage equal to the amount by which the save was successful (minimum 1 point), fail and remove no non-lethal damage. After 8 hours of rest all non-lethal damage is automatically removed.
4. A normally non-lethal attack can be made lethal by taking a -4 to attacks made in this way. Alternately a normally lethal melee attack can be made non-lethal but this likewise takes a -4 attack penalty.
At least this is the way I ruled non-lethal damage in my games, but honestly it only rarely came up as the players were more interested in killing their opponents than simply disabling them.
perhaps institute a subual damage attempt (-2 atk mod, deal subdual damage instead of nonlethal) that's more difficult to hit because you're aiming for pressure points and soft spots and you're only hitting to incapacitate, not kill
characters with the brawl feat may choose to deal subdual damage or nonlethal damage with your unarmed attack without taking any penalty to attack (sort of like combat martial arts allows you to deal lethal/non-lethal unarmed damage)
Suppose each successive whack does a cumulative extra point of damage.
Under this system, enough good conks to the head will put you out, even if the individual blows are less than spectacular.
Strong folk will be at an advantage in that it'll likely take them less punches to put their opponents out; likewise, tough folk will also be at an advantage in that they'll be able to take more punishment before finally crossing eyes, and flopping over.
Suppose resting for a good minute, or so, will let you get your head back together, and sober up from that unpleasant punch drunk sensation.
Am I reading this correctly? If so, any solutions for the apparent problem? Would it be better to use the DnD rules for non-lethal damage? Any other solutions?
Even in real life it's hard to disable people without actually damaging them. People tend to lose consciousness due concussion, which is pretty serious. But this is a game, so perhaps it's better to look at what works and what does not rather than what is realistic.
It is true that non-lethal damage is just about a non-option for characters that have not specialized in that direction. That's the harsh truth. If you feel that's unreasonable you can add house rules to fix that.
However, bear in mind the positive effects of the non-lethal damage rules.
1) There is no need for book-keeping: tracking temporary hp damage separate from actual hp damage.
2) Non-lethal damage isn't a shortcut to victory. Getting knocked out is pretty much the same process as failing a massive damage check: The damage needs to beat the target's Con, and the target then needs to fail a Fortitude save (DC 15 in both cases).
There is also a different kind of benefit to non-lethal damage: If your damage beats the target's Con, then he will at the very least be dazed.
Building a good Brawler is pretty hard actually. The key feats are Brawl, Improved Brawl, Power Attack and Street Fighting. All these feats should be available to a Strong Hero 5, who should also have completed the Melee Smash talent tree. This results in +2 to attack rolls and 1d8+1d4+8 damage (full Power Attack), and this is even before adding Strength modifiers.
Suggested build:
Strong Hero 1: Brawl (occupation or starting feat), Melee Smash. (+2/1d6+1)
Strong Hero 2: Power Attack (class bonus feat). (+1/1d6+3, full Power Attack)
Strong Hero 3: Streetfighting (character level 3), Improved Melee Smash. (+1/1d6+1d4+5, full Power Attack)
Strong Hero 4: Improved Brawl (class bonus feat). (+2/1d8+1d4+6, full Power Attack)
Strong Hero 5: Advanced Melee Smash.(+2/1d8+1d4+8, full Power Attack)
-K
For starters not everyone is going to have a 20 Constitution and a Fortitude Save of +15, even at the higher levels. Also take into the account that if someone (non-Tough Hero) fails the save they get knocked out, which can lead to a coupe de grace…if desired.
…wait one minute
! The common complaint I’ve heard in the Fantasy side of forums is how hard it is “Not’ to kill the party. They site that non-lethal damage is impractical (for non-spell caster) because its ridiculously hard to knock characters out at the mid-to-high levels, due to hit points.At least in Modern you knock someone out regardless of level.
Plus I've been hit, four times bare-knuckle, in face by a boxer twice my age and who works with his hands daily; and was not knocked unconscious. Does that make me high-level or tough as hell?
Plus I've been hit, four times bare-knuckle, in face by a boxer twice my age and who works with his hands daily; and was not knocked unconscious. Does that make me high-level or tough as hell?
Depends... Were you 15 or 30 years old?
At this point I usually post a suggestion for a house simple house rule to support attacks designed to injure rather than kill:
Take a -4 penalty to the attack roll. The attack deals hp damage as normal, but the target will not be reduced to less than 0 hp, even on a failed massive damage check. That should satisfy players that don't want to mess around with the non-lethal damage rules but still wants to take the enemy alive.
-K
How's this for a fix, then: Massive Non-Level Damage? You take your Con score or more in non-lethal damage and you to save against unconsciousness, but you also keep a running total of your non-lethal damage and can get knocked out if you take enough of it. Best of both worlds, yes?
kjakan, Phoenix has a feat called "Mercy Blow" that does almost that exact thing. With it, you can choose to reduce your enemy to -1 HPs and stabilised instead of killing him/her/it. It's a good "hero" feat.
We also dumped critical threat ranges. Roll a critical (or a natural 20) and it hits - no threat - just a critical. Roll twice to confirm and get a second crit? Instant kill.
I haven't seen unarmed (non-lethal) damage play out on a critical, but eagerly await the first punch that kills.
Depends... Were you 15 or 30 years old?
I was 20 and I would probably have a Con of 8-12 Max, besides how many fights that rely on non-lethal damage (like boxing) end in one-round. Pointing out another thing using boxing, it sometimes take almost a dozen rounds sometimes before one fighter knocks the other out...and sometimes not even then. People shouldn’t be too surprised on much of a beating they can take before going down...but just cause you take a few hits from someone’s fists, don’t mean you take a baseball bat to the head.
Besides the unarmed combat at the upper-lower-to-high levels, in fantasy, is meant more for 'legendary' brawls; the people participating can slug each other for days before dropping...not really something for modern.
Plus dont forget Regeneration which nullifies non-lethal damage entirely and heals a little bit ever turn. Though its a mostly monster-trait rules changes like this must take in good consideration before applying.
Not sure if this has already been said but here goes. What if you make the amount of non-lethal damage a hero can take equal to their con score and just keep track of those hit points since their con is not ever going to be that big anyway.
I like that. I'm gonna have to test drive it alongside my own. Might actually end up using it.
Someone with improved knockout and improved brawling can do 8-24 plus bonuses with a knockout punch, which is usually going to be enough to overcome someone's CON regardless of level.
If you use 3.5 DnD rules, that same punch on a mid to high level opponenent may inflict of lot of HP, but it probably won't knock them out.
So I think RealOrion's suggestion of keep a non-lethal massive damage threshold in place is a good one: it keeps the knockout feats at their intended power.
Here is how I think it should be.
Non-lethal damage DOES inflict temporary Subdual damage. If the damage adds up to the characters present hit points, He is beaten down and disabled. He is capable of partial actions only. (He is on the ropes!... He's swaying!...)
Every point of damage beyond the characters hit point total becomes Lethal damage. (A determined attacker could eventually beat you to death)
If the damage equals or exceeds the target’s massive damage threshold, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 15 + the Str. mod. of the attacker). If the target succeeds on the save, the target is dazed for 1 round. If the target fails, he or she is knocked unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.
(The above preserves the value of the Knockout punch feat)
Non-leathal damage is recovered at 1 point per minute of non-strenuous action (No running, fighting etc. Walking, driving, searching is OK). Lethal damage is recovered at the normal rates.
Just my 2 cents.