Occultist - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Occultist

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
suburbaknght
Mar 09, 2008 19:08:24 First off, I searched the boards and couldn't find an answer to this question.

Second, the question: Does the Occultist advanced class in Shadow Chasers get this listed scrolls only s/he goes up in level or does s/he get the ability to create those scrolls? I thought it was the former (you've found a trove of scrolls! Use them wisely; they need to last you long enough to get another 10,000 xp) but upon re-reading the class description I was no longer sure.

Third, some background and game suggestions. I'm considering running a Masque of Red Death game, though with the d20 Modern/d20 Past rules rather than the atrocious MotRD rules White Wolf published in what is otherwise an amazing setting book, though keeping a few things such as Fear, Horror, and Madness checks. One of the things I'd definitely be keeping would be Powers Checks for using magic (the Red Death has corrupted all magic which in turn eventually corrupts anyone who uses said magic). As such the Occultist class suffers an even greater power penalty than it currently does, as it's penalized for using its signature abilities (being the go-to knowledge guy is still good, but that's something that effects everybody). Do people have any suggestions for slightly beefing up the class? Maybe a one-time Wealth and Reputation bonus for archaeologically or academic discoveries, ala the Field Scientist?

Fourth, what do people think of allowing the Occultist to progress to the Artificer prestige class from Urban Arcana. Yes, I'm deliberately mis-interpreting the rules as far as the "must be able to cast arcane spells" requirement goes by allowing casting from scrolls to count. Any attempt to use a scroll to make a magic item would use the scroll just as casting would, and would require a powers check to an even greater extent. Also the +1 to casting level business would apply to discovering new scrolls instead. Would this undermine the "magic items are rare and each is unique" feel of MotRD? Would it unbalance the game by allowing the PCs access to custom magic items? For that matter, what about allowing Spiritualists to progress as Ecclesiarchs or Shadow Slayers to Holy Knights?

Thank you for your help.
#2
j0lt
Mar 13, 2008 5:39:45 I don't think they can create their own scrolls, but in order to get more the GM can place them as "random treasure" or what not during the adventure.
#3
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 15, 2008 11:15:03 I always saw the Occultist as the one who had to discover the scrolls and magic tomes, but you make a good point: could they copy scrolls? Perhaps at the expense of destroying the old one, meaning they'd have to successfully copy two at once for the ability to be worth anything, or maybe they can't cast spells from magic tomes and instead need to copy it onto a scroll, the spell can be copied... 50 times before the magic on the page dissipates and the page is consumed.

Maybe allow an x-level (10~20?) Occultist to take the scribe scroll mage ability at the cost of a feat, but to scribe a scroll an Occultist requires a tome of magical spells, each spell can be scribed up to x times before the pages containing the spell turn to dust, where x is the Occultist's class level. Should a multi-class Mage/Occultist scribe scroll, the mage ability works first.
#4
j0lt
Mar 15, 2008 11:19:39 I'm pretty sure you can't create a scroll from a scroll.
A scroll is a 99% completed spell in material form. To create one, you have to cast the entire spell into the scroll.

The Occultist Advanced Class (like all other AdCs) only goes up to level 10, but either way, that is WAY unbalanced.
#5
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 15, 2008 11:32:46 It may only go up to ten, but you can still acquire additional levels in the class, IMO, but you don't gain any more abilities, just attack bonuses, class bonuses, and save bonuses (wealth and rep too I guess)

At least, that's the way I'm going to run it.

EDIT: how exactly is it unbalanced? and Occultist can only cast spell from a scroll (or copy a spell onto a scroll with the feat above), enabling them to gain more scrolls through personal expense and time is not IMO unbalanced.
#6
j0lt
Mar 15, 2008 11:39:04 How about you explain how sitting around duplicating an intentionally limited item isn't unbalanced?
The Occultist AdC wasn't meant to be used in Urban Arcana, it's meant to be used in the Low-Magic Shadow Chasers setting.
#7
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 15, 2008 11:49:25 um, yes, but I'm not bound by the author's intention. If I wished I could give every character class 20d6 AP per level.

My intent is to slightly de-limit the Occultist when combined with the UA classes, after all the player still has to find a tome of magic as well as purchase the materials to copy the scrolls, and find the time to do the copying in between saving the world/universe from BBEGs.

think about that for second before saying: "But you can't do that, it's not in the rulebook!!!" or "Who do you think you are, a GM?!"
#8
j0lt
Mar 16, 2008 18:35:22 No, you're not bound by anything, but a little politeness would help.
If you want to bump the Occultist's power level to suit a UA game, there are much more elegant ways to do it than completely changing the game mechanic for scrolls.
Allowing them more scrolls per level, for example.
#9
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 17, 2008 13:48:45 Or perhaps removing "scrolls per level" and allowing an OOC to research/scribe scrolls from spellbooks? (at least it's not both)

and FYI, I'm not running an SC campaign, nor am I running a UA campaign, so the "it's supposed to be a limited resource" rule doesn't exactly apply

now consider the requirements for an Occultist to scribe scrolls: Level 10+ in the Occultist Advanced Class; items and such to scribe a scroll; a tome of spells to copy the spells from (which are, FYI, very rare); the time to scribe a scroll

add to this that the speels in the spellbook are destroyed after a number of copyings equal to the Occultist's current class level (10+, max of 50), which means when the number of times the spell has been copied equals the Occ's current level those pages are wiped clean of magical writings and there is a 50% chance that the pages will be destroyed too.

now aside from the fact that an Occultist gets x scrolls per level, some of which may be chosen by the player, how is this modification unbalanced?
#10
j0lt
Mar 17, 2008 22:04:39 The scrolls per level is only a defined minimum. Nothing prevents the GM from introducing scrolls as treasure. In a UA-style game, that'd be pretty common too.

Now you're giving them a spellbook(tome)? How are they any different from a wizard now?

It's not so much unbalanced as completely unmanagable now (I hate using the word broken, but this comes pretty close).

What is it you want the Occultist to do? What other classes may already fill the role? If there's too much overlap, it's not so good.
#11
aspiring_lichlord
Mar 18, 2008 13:23:54 nonono, you misunderstand, the Occ doesn't GET a spellbook, they use them to COPY SPELLS FROM, but they have to FIND A SPELLBOOK to do so

so... it's a more resource intensive version of "scrolls as rewards", but it allows more scrolls over a longer period of time...

It just seems more logical that spellbooks would be more... "commonplace" than scrolls, though both are still extremely rare
#12
j0lt
Mar 18, 2008 22:24:57 So... Once they find a spellbook, then they get one? And since this is the main mechanic of your revised Occultist, I'm wondering how many sessions that'll take.

Or by spellbook, do you mean an old book that may contain a handfull of spells?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 suburbaknght Mar 09, 2008 19:08:24	First off, I searched the boards and couldn't find an answer to this question. Second, the question: Does the Occultist advanced class in Shadow Chasers get this listed scrolls only s/he goes up in level or does s/he get the ability to create those scrolls? I thought it was the former (you've found a trove of scrolls! Use them wisely; they need to last you long enough to get another 10,000 xp) but upon re-reading the class description I was no longer sure. Third, some background and game suggestions. I'm considering running a Masque of Red Death game, though with the d20 Modern/d20 Past rules rather than the atrocious MotRD rules White Wolf published in what is otherwise an amazing setting book, though keeping a few things such as Fear, Horror, and Madness checks. One of the things I'd definitely be keeping would be Powers Checks for using magic (the Red Death has corrupted all magic which in turn eventually corrupts anyone who uses said magic). As such the Occultist class suffers an even greater power penalty than it currently does, as it's penalized for using its signature abilities (being the go-to knowledge guy is still good, but that's something that effects everybody). Do people have any suggestions for slightly beefing up the class? Maybe a one-time Wealth and Reputation bonus for archaeologically or academic discoveries, ala the Field Scientist? Fourth, what do people think of allowing the Occultist to progress to the Artificer prestige class from Urban Arcana. Yes, I'm deliberately mis-interpreting the rules as far as the "must be able to cast arcane spells" requirement goes by allowing casting from scrolls to count. Any attempt to use a scroll to make a magic item would use the scroll just as casting would, and would require a powers check to an even greater extent. Also the +1 to casting level business would apply to discovering new scrolls instead. Would this undermine the "magic items are rare and each is unique" feel of MotRD? Would it unbalance the game by allowing the PCs access to custom magic items? For that matter, what about allowing Spiritualists to progress as Ecclesiarchs or Shadow Slayers to Holy Knights? Thank you for your help.
#2 j0lt Mar 13, 2008 5:39:45	I don't think they can create their own scrolls, but in order to get more the GM can place them as "random treasure" or what not during the adventure.
#3 aspiring_lichlord Mar 15, 2008 11:15:03	I always saw the Occultist as the one who had to discover the scrolls and magic tomes, but you make a good point: could they copy scrolls? Perhaps at the expense of destroying the old one, meaning they'd have to successfully copy two at once for the ability to be worth anything, or maybe they can't cast spells from magic tomes and instead need to copy it onto a scroll, the spell can be copied... 50 times before the magic on the page dissipates and the page is consumed. Maybe allow an x-level (10~20?) Occultist to take the scribe scroll mage ability at the cost of a feat, but to scribe a scroll an Occultist requires a tome of magical spells, each spell can be scribed up to x times before the pages containing the spell turn to dust, where x is the Occultist's class level. Should a multi-class Mage/Occultist scribe scroll, the mage ability works first.
#4 j0lt Mar 15, 2008 11:19:39	I'm pretty sure you can't create a scroll from a scroll. A scroll is a 99% completed spell in material form. To create one, you have to cast the entire spell into the scroll. The Occultist Advanced Class (like all other AdCs) only goes up to level 10, but either way, that is WAY unbalanced.
#5 aspiring_lichlord Mar 15, 2008 11:32:46	It may only go up to ten, but you can still acquire additional levels in the class, IMO, but you don't gain any more abilities, just attack bonuses, class bonuses, and save bonuses (wealth and rep too I guess) At least, that's the way I'm going to run it. EDIT: how exactly is it unbalanced? and Occultist can only cast spell from a scroll (or copy a spell onto a scroll with the feat above), enabling them to gain more scrolls through personal expense and time is not IMO unbalanced.
#6 j0lt Mar 15, 2008 11:39:04	How about you explain how sitting around duplicating an intentionally limited item isn't unbalanced? The Occultist AdC wasn't meant to be used in Urban Arcana, it's meant to be used in the Low-Magic Shadow Chasers setting.
#7 aspiring_lichlord Mar 15, 2008 11:49:25	um, yes, but I'm not bound by the author's intention. If I wished I could give every character class 20d6 AP per level. My intent is to slightly de-limit the Occultist when combined with the UA classes, after all the player still has to find a tome of magic as well as purchase the materials to copy the scrolls, and find the time to do the copying in between saving the world/universe from BBEGs. think about that for second before saying: "But you can't do that, it's not in the rulebook!!!" or "Who do you think you are, a GM?!"
#8 j0lt Mar 16, 2008 18:35:22	No, you're not bound by anything, but a little politeness would help. If you want to bump the Occultist's power level to suit a UA game, there are much more elegant ways to do it than completely changing the game mechanic for scrolls. Allowing them more scrolls per level, for example.
#9 aspiring_lichlord Mar 17, 2008 13:48:45	Or perhaps removing "scrolls per level" and allowing an OOC to research/scribe scrolls from spellbooks? (at least it's not both) and FYI, I'm not running an SC campaign, nor am I running a UA campaign, so the "it's supposed to be a limited resource" rule doesn't exactly apply now consider the requirements for an Occultist to scribe scrolls: Level 10+ in the Occultist Advanced Class; items and such to scribe a scroll; a tome of spells to copy the spells from (which are, FYI, very rare); the time to scribe a scroll add to this that the speels in the spellbook are destroyed after a number of copyings equal to the Occultist's current class level (10+, max of 50), which means when the number of times the spell has been copied equals the Occ's current level those pages are wiped clean of magical writings and there is a 50% chance that the pages will be destroyed too. now aside from the fact that an Occultist gets x scrolls per level, some of which may be chosen by the player, how is this modification unbalanced?
#10 j0lt Mar 17, 2008 22:04:39	The scrolls per level is only a defined minimum. Nothing prevents the GM from introducing scrolls as treasure. In a UA-style game, that'd be pretty common too. Now you're giving them a spellbook(tome)? How are they any different from a wizard now? It's not so much unbalanced as completely unmanagable now (I hate using the word broken, but this comes pretty close). What is it you want the Occultist to do? What other classes may already fill the role? If there's too much overlap, it's not so good.
#11 aspiring_lichlord Mar 18, 2008 13:23:54	nonono, you misunderstand, the Occ doesn't GET a spellbook, they use them to COPY SPELLS FROM, but they have to FIND A SPELLBOOK to do so so... it's a more resource intensive version of "scrolls as rewards", but it allows more scrolls over a longer period of time... It just seems more logical that spellbooks would be more... "commonplace" than scrolls, though both are still extremely rare
#12 j0lt Mar 18, 2008 22:24:57	So... Once they find a spellbook, then they get one? And since this is the main mechanic of your revised Occultist, I'm wondering how many sessions that'll take. Or by spellbook, do you mean an old book that may contain a handfull of spells?