Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nadaka Apr 22, 2008 13:42:33	I am trying to figure out for myself the better of the two methods for building a d20 game. I am planning heavily modifying d20 modern as a base for my own games. Old D20: The qualities of a class such as BAB, Saves are divergent. New D20: The qualities of a class such as BAB, saves are linear. For simplicity sake, I will assume a poor/average/good setup for progressions and assume that "AC/Defense" scales with level. Old system: poor = 0 to +10 over 20 levels average = 0 to 15 over 20 levels good = 1 to 20 over 20 levels. new type system: poor = +0 at level 1 average = +1 at level 1 good = +2 at level 1 all bonus go up at a fixed rate (one that doesn't really matter when comparing similar level characters). issues: with the old divergent system the point is rapidly reached where to challenge a good attack character the defence has to be so high that a poor attack character will never be able to hit. Likewise to allow the poor BAB character to hit means the good BAB character will be unable to miss. This does not even count the fact that the High BAB character is more likely to seek means of increasing its attack even more. Examples: at level 20 (10/15/20) good BAB vs good defence = 50% hit good BAB vs average defence = 75% hit good BAB vs poor defence = 100% hit average BAB vs good defence = 25% hit average BAB vs average defence = 50% hit average BAB vs poor defence = 75% hit poor BAB vs good defence = 0% hit poor BAB vs average defence = 25% hit poor BAB vs poor defence = 50% hit at level 10 (5/7/10) good BAB vs good defence = 50% hit good BAB vs average defence = 65% hit good BAB vs poor defence = 75% hit average BAB vs good defence = 35% hit average BAB vs average defence = 50% hit average BAB vs poor defence = 60% hit poor BAB vs good defence = 25% hit poor BAB vs average defence = 40% hit poor BAB vs poor defence = 50% hit However, this setup makes sense. someone multiclassing to a good BAB class often gets an immediate benifit and staying with a good higher BAB class longer results in overall improved performance. While switching to a lower BAB class produces no immediate gain and over time will continue to degrade your performance. Now with the new type systems seen in SW:SAGA and presumably 4e: switching from a +2 class to a +1 class improves your bonus rather than hindering it. This promotes multi-classing out of the class with a good bonus to further improve your overall bonus. Not only that but a multi-class 9 good/1bad character has exactly the same attack as the 9bad/1good character despite having spent far more time and xp focused on that ability. On the other hand. This does allow both good and poor characters to contribute against the foes of the same quality and the tendancy for to max out effectiveness for intentionally good characters will continue. Though I have noted that in SAGA its possible to max out ones defence so that not even a GOOD BAB character with all possible bonuses can hit you except for a natural 20. thoughts opinions?
#2 j0lt Apr 23, 2008 0:58:12	I'm really happy with a lot of what they did with the SAGA edition. I really like d20 Modern, but a lot of the things you've picked out are where the d20 3.x system falls apart. It works well at low-medium levels (I find the range between 3rd and 12th to be the most balanced), but at high levels and especially epic levels, it's just broken, while at level 1, the PCs are in danger of being killed by an ordinary rat.
#3 cinanev Apr 23, 2008 8:38:28	Now I am wondering what 4e will introduce in terms of progression concepts. For now it appears that you get all of your bonuses at 1st level in a class, then progression is even after that; gaining a +1 bonus to BAB and Defenses (i.e. saving throws/defense (AC)) every other level. (I could be wrong). That would mean: Right off the bat Strong heroes will be excelent in melee because they will have a high Strength bonus. Right off the bat Fast heroes will be excelent in ranged becasue they will have a high Dexterity bonus. In order to improve further from this a character will have to take Talents/Feats/Powers; meaning a character that wanted to maximize BAB would potentially have to go light on gaining other abilities. Examples (using Saga as a basis) Strong Hero Level 1: +1 BAB, +1 Fortitude Defense Key Ability: Strength Talents: Strength check bonus, Melee BAB bonus, Damage bonus, Ignore hardness. Fast Hero Level 1: +2 Reflex Defense Key Ability: Dexterity Talents: Dexterity check bonus, BAB bonus (ranged or melee, choose one), Evasion, Speed, Reflex defense bonus. Tough Hero Level 1: +2 Fortitude Defense Key Ability: Constitution Talents: HP bonus, Damage reduction, Unbreakable, Energy resistance, Fortitude defense bonus. Smart Hero Level 1: +1 Reflex and +1 Will Defenses Key Ability: Intelligence Talents: Knowledge bonus(s), Strategist, Intelligent fighting (BAB bonus), Intelligent defense (Reflex Defense bonus). Dedicated Hero Level 1: +1 Fortitude and +1 Will Defenses Key Ability: Wisdom Talents: Empathy, Healing, Insight, Will defense bonus. Charismatic Hero Level 1: +1 Reflex and +1 Will Defenses Key Ability: Charisma Talents: Charm, Fast-talk, Leadership, Subterfuge (BAB bonus/attacks against Will Defense). Remove extra attacks based on BAB, instead require either Two-Weapon fighting or taking a Feat to gain additional attacks. Some existing Talents probably need to be dropped or reworked or added to give an actual advantage, especially at 1st level. Advanced classes probably need to be reworked so they provide Talents and class Features rather than a linear progression of features. Specific abilities for a given class should focus on what that class does (Controller, Defender, Leader, Striker).
#4 doomsought Apr 23, 2008 18:33:31	Bah the old way is better, the only thing that needs fixed it the Genetic engineering (just use templates with LA) I mean it. if you use the divergent system, there is a definite benefits for being a heavy combat type, while the others have side benefits (such as spells or abilities). this really just makes the heavy combat type just that much worse.
#5 nadaka Apr 26, 2008 13:57:08	Well, I am thinking of either using the old divergent method (but a little less divergent). Good = +.7 per level (+2 at character level 1) Average = +.6 per level (+1 at character level 1) Poor = +.5 per level Or: offer better talents for the physical classes that give much better attack bonuses.
#6 nadaka Apr 27, 2008 13:11:28	While I am at it? What do people prefer in terms of level 1 bonus expansion? In modern/3.5 the effect of a classes skill points and to a lesser degree HP are amplified if selecting a class with a high value at character level 1. Saga actually amplifies this decision because you do not gain class skill proficiencies when multiclassing into a class, only at character level 1 and by offering 3* max HP at level one instead of just max HP. The reason I am offering the conditional + bonuses to other statistics is to bring parity to the choice of first class assuming that these amplified values are in place. No longer will a multiclass build with smart hero demand smart hero be taken first, a decision must be made on what set of abilities is most important to get that unique level one set of bonuses. The other direction is taken by the new Pathfinder RPG, where the specific bonuses for choosing a class at level one are reduced in importance, IE no x4 skill point modifier. I see merit in both methods, but only if taken in totality. Either special level one bonuses for each quality of a class, or none at all.