Is it a matter of years? Does it take having used a certain system, possibly for a certain length of time? Do you need to have Dm'd? Would it require a certain event to happen in a game? How about a cane, is that needed?
If it helps, i've been playing PnP RPGs for about ten years now.
"Old School" probably varies depending on who you ask. I consider myself an "oldschool" gamer for starting with 2nd ed AD&D, and playing a bunch of systems that were all written before WotC even existed. However I know people who started with the original D&D box sets of the 70s, so they're "more oldschool" than me.
The way I see it, if 3rd edition D&D was your first RPG experience, you're not oldschool.
The way I see it, if 3rd edition D&D was your first RPG experience, you're not oldschool.
Good thing I started with AD&D then
.If you know what THAC0 is and how to calculate it. :P
-- know there is a number THAC0
-- can define TSR & GDW & WEG
-- were playing pencil&paper before DnD3ed/d20Modern
If you know what THAC0 is and how to calculate it. :P
"Old School" probably varies depending on who you ask. I consider myself an "oldschool" gamer for starting with 2nd ed AD&D, and playing a bunch of systems that were all written before WotC even existed. However I know people who started with the original D&D box sets of the 70s, so they're "more oldschool" than me.
The way I see it, if 3rd edition D&D was your first RPG experience, you're not oldschool.
I have nothing to add. This sums up my thoughts. I would emphasise that it really is subjective, though, depending on when you started, what's older than your experience, and what you started with.
- If you still call rogues "Thiefs",
you might be OldSchool. - If you miss the days your archer didnt have to "take a free 5ft step back",
you might be OldSchool. - If you didnt plan out a 5 class 20 level "build",
you might be OldSchool - If you keep forgetting Flanking gets BackStab damage bonus,
you might be OldSchool - If you still call it BackStab rather than SneakAttack,
you might be OldSchool
Old School RPG for me is a RPG that could be played for years with minimal investment. So with that in mind anything after OAD&D is new school. 2AD&D herald a new era in RPG with Complete "insert class here" books that offered new options to previoulsy published classes. It can be argued that you never have to by any books accept the starting ones but players have a tendency of buying anything that will give them that extra edge...LOL
Then there are those who rage quit....
- If you still call rogues "Thiefs",
you might be OldSchool.
Did the name get changed due to Political Correctness, or some other reason?
Did the name get changed due to Political Correctness, or some other reason?
My guess is that it was due to people assuming that class=profession, thus giving douchebag players the excuse to steal from anyone and everyone because "I'm a thief, that's what I do." Given the stories I've heard from other people on this forum, if that was the intent, it failed.
Did the name get changed due to Political Correctness, or some other reason?
My guess is that it was due to people assuming that class=profession, thus giving douchebag players the excuse to steal from anyone and everyone because "I'm a thief, that's what I do." Given the stories I've heard from other people on this forum, if that was the intent, it failed.
So why isn't this a problem with Fighter, Bard, Cleric and the like?
This irks me along the lines that people solely play into the Chaotic Neutral stereotype as either totally stupid or horrific murderers, when neither is what the alignment is all about.
So why isn't this a problem with Fighter, Bard, Cleric and the like?
This irks me along the likes that people solely play into the Chaotic Neutral stereotype as either totally stupid or horrific murderers, when neither is what the alignment is all about.
I agree 100%.
Yes, "thief" was changed to "rogue" to soften it, make it sound less criminalish. It doesn't bug me, actually, because there always were lots of ways to play the "thief" class. The name change just made that a little more clear. Even "sneak attack" doesn't bug me too much; it turns something that seems inherently immoral to something that is tactically useful.
Luckily, not my players.
1st Ed. had the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and Wilderness Survival Guide, so system expansion has been with us for quite some time. I don't think it was nearly as severe, though, as Hasbro telling Wizards that they have to put out a new book every month. Why they didn't just put out a new adventure every month is still beyond me. That's sustainable. Power creep really isn't. I digress.
Yes, "thief" was changed to "rogue" to soften it, make it sound less criminalish. It doesn't bug me, actually, because there always were lots of ways to play the "thief" class. The name change just made that a little more clear. Even "sneak attack" doesn't bug me too much; it turns something that seems inherently immoral to something that is tactically useful.
Oh boy! I had forgotten about Survival Guides. Did they offer new options to the core classes? I can't recall. My point is about giving new and more powerful options to previously published classes. That's when everything changed from Old school for me.
Remember the assassin? Its obvious why they were pulled. 3rd edition did a face scrub to demons and devils also. Remember all the name changes? It was ridiculous. We all new what they were in the end.
I also like the old ways of demons and devils better. Though I'm not opposed to the recent reclassification of the succubus, honestly.
Also, if the first time you open the 3e phb you were confused as to what class the experience table was for, and even more confused when you couldn't find the tables for the other classes, you might be oldschool.
I forgot how to calculate THAC0
Your THAC0 - opponent's AC = number on the d20 you have to meet or beat to hit.
Example: Your THAC0 is 18, and your opponent has an AC of 8, you have to roll a 10 or higher to hit. (18-8=10)
For all the youngins: THAC0 stands for "To-Hit Armor Class 0." And back in those days AC went down, and a good AC was a negative number. It really wasn't as hard as it sounds (and many people make it out to be) to calculate.
It was needlessly complicated, though. The BA system is exactly the same numbers just using positive numbers instead of negative.
Yup, exactly. It was carryover from the old days of Chainmail and wargaming, and isn't missed beyond nostalgia. :P
Its unintuitiveness is exactly why every other game system on the market in those days did things like the BA system.
Reminds me of whatever rendition of Battletech (with the Mechwarrior additional ruleset) I tried out with my main group's GM. Your gunnery score went up as it got better, which made your "to hit" go down. But your to hit changed depending on whether or not you had moved, how far you had moved, what method of movement was used, how far your enemy moved, what his method of movement was, whether or not he had electronic interference...
This was not easy for me to grasp at 2AM in the morning. It still seems ridiculous today. lol
Anyhow, I can't call myself an oldschool gamer - at least not by the requirements listed here. I started with D20Modern (well, a heavily rule 0'd D20Future) and though I've wanted to try out 2nd Edition, I have never done so.
When D&D6E comes around, I plan on grumbling about Base Attack Bonus and skill points. :P
I forgot how to calculate THAC0
Your THAC0 - opponent's AC = number on the d20 you have to meet or beat to hit.
Example: Your THAC0 is 18, and your opponent has an AC of 8, you have to roll a 10 or higher to hit. (18-8=10)
For all the youngins: THAC0 stands for "To-Hit Armor Class 0." And back in those days AC went down, and a good AC was a negative number. It really wasn't as hard as it sounds (and many people make it out to be) to calculate.
Ah, it's all coming back to me now... Including the headaches.
Armor class of opponent: 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10
Weapon held (hand axe) : -3 -2 -1 -1 00 00 +1 +1 +2
Weapons also had speed factors: A lance had a speed of 8 (slow) while a dagger had a speed of 2 (fast)
Weapons also had speed factors: A lance had a speed of 8 (slow) while a dagger had a speed of 2 (fast)
Oh man, THESE I remember.
I do NOT miss these at all. :P
But your to hit changed depending on whether or not you had moved, how far you had moved, what method of movement was used, how far your enemy moved, what his method of movement was, whether or not he had electronic interference...
welcome to Marksmaship 101
By ignoring the movement penalties (or stationary bonuses)
we can more accurately model the way snipers take their 1000m shots while running a 50Dash at the track,
and still enforce the concept that a moving target is no harder to hit than one standing still
If you played characters that couldnt take a 50AE pistol
because they werent invented yet,
you might be an OldSchool gamer
welcome to Marksmaship 101
By ignoring the movement penalties (or stationary bonuses)
we can more accurately model the way snipers take their 1000m shots while running a 50Dash at the track,
and still enforce the concept that a moving target is no harder to hit than one standing still
Oh, I'm very aware of this. It's just a pain in the butt the way they calculated it. You could model it a whole lot more gracefully in an Attack vs Defense system, though.
To Hit combat model looked something like this on paper. Note, this is after calculating your normal to hit:
T= Mu+Lu+Me+Le+R+C
An efficent defensive model would look like this:
D= 10+Me+Le+C
A= Mu+Lu+R
A+1d20 >= D is a hit
While the second one is admitedly a slightly bigger math problem than the first, because the defensive factors only need to be calculated once per turn and then simply stacked against the attack numbers to determine a hit, the game flows a bit more smoothly. In the Battletech model, you had to do the entire equation every time not because factors changed, but because of how the equation worked.
By ignoring the movement penalties (or stationary bonuses)
we can more accurately model the way snipers take their 1000m shots while running a 50Dash at the track,
and still enforce the concept that a moving target is no harder to hit than one standing still
I know it's a little unrelated, but I like how GURPS handles moving targets,
Example: Erin the archer shoots at a dragon. It is 40 yards away and flying at Move 15 (30 mph): 40 + 15 = 55 yards. Erin rounds up to 70 yards, for a speed/range modifier of -9. The dragon is 6 yards long, which rounds up to 7 yards, for SM +3. Erin’s final modifier to hit is -6.
And wouldn't the title of Old School also apply to you having played and being knowledgeable of a games previous incarnations... AD&D, Etcetera
I agree that knowledge is part of it, but still, you can't ignore attitude and little touches (such as sayings)
I totally and lividly miss Weapon Speed / Spell Cast Time modifiers to init.
Me too. Most people hated them, I loved them. They actually made knife specialisation mean something. You get good at wielding a tiny weapon because it means you get to make the first attack most of the time. It made perfect sense to me, and it could still be implemented in 3e/d20M. Same goes for spell-casting. I hated losing those, I really did.
What were the rules exactly?
When I saw "attack speed", I though it had to do with iterative attacks instead of initiative. Init penalties are a good idea, though. So long as shields didn't contribute (much) to attack speed, it'd make running a sword and board PC not suck.
If they had a less clunky implementation of it, like Fuzion does (small, one handed, two handed) then I'd be all for it again, probably. (Though then again, Fuzion has this Rock, Paper, Scissors, thing going on with weapon sizes that also effected your to-hit, depending on the size of your weapon and your opponent's weapon...)
Edit: Though now that I think about it, even if different weapons had different speeds, it probably wouldn't be that much more difficult to implement than an armor's Armor Check Penalty.
Maybe I was just an impatiant little man...
Does anyone know if someone out there in D&D land created a 3e version of those rules?
Aaand we should probably get back on topic. >_>
And I like guns. I figure if an action game like Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 can give every gun a unique (and mechanically important) feel, a RPG based in the Modern era should have similar depth in firearms mechanics.
Note before someone jumps on this and tears into it: I understand Call of Duty is a videogame and therein not exactly realistic. It is, however, an example of frantic and fun combat in a game and therefore something we might want to examine for the benefit of our own games.
. But DAMN it seems like I missed the fun stuff!Now I have been educated and know better that it simply will never occur
Oh it wasn't all fun. Saves were very dangerous. One missed d20 roll and you were dead regardless of level. We had Save VS Poison or die, Save VS Turn to Stone or die and the famous Save VS Death Ray or die !!! I lost a 12 level Magic-User like that. At the time you needed 750 000xps to get there. That's when I decided it was better to be the DM...LOL
Other old school stuff (1978 basic):
- Spells had no casting time, just range and duration
- The combat sequence was very rigid: 1)Moral check, 2)Movement, 3)Missile fire, 4) Magic Spell, 5)Melee
- Maps in modules were printed in light blue to prevent photocopy. In those days "Xerox machines" couldn't detect light blue...
- Maps in modules were printed in light blue to prevent photocopy. In those days "Xerox machines" couldn't detect light blue...
Now that's old school.
- Maps in modules were printed in light blue to prevent photocopy. In those days "Xerox machines" couldn't detect light blue...
Which also meant that you could hand-draw your own maps on graph paper, to keep the scale, and then photocopy them. The blue lines wouldn't appear in the copy and you looked like you had a pristine map. It helped the illusion. Of course, if you wanted the grid lines, you were out of luck. You had to buy graph paper with darker lines, and that was pretty hard to do, actually.
Old School: from Chainmail to AD&D2E. WotC is far from old school. However, I just read that WotC is rereleasing the red box. lol, what'll be next - blue box? Looks like Wizards is tryin' to modernize old school gaming. Best of luck.
Actualy the redbox was an excellent product. A low cost entry into D&D. Rules, one module and a set of dei. That's how most us the old timers started. Not everyone is willing to dish out $100+ just to try a game.
If your d20 has 1-0 printed on it twice, you roll it with a d6 when making d20 rolls, and you don't have a d10, you might be oldschool. :P
Actualy the redbox was an excellent product. A low cost entry into D&D. Rules, one module and a set of dei. That's how most us the old timers started. Not everyone is willing to dish out $100+ just to try a game.
How much did it cost in mid-70s dollars? Adjusting for inflation, is that around $100? Just curious.
Actualy the redbox was an excellent product. A low cost entry into D&D. Rules, one module and a set of dei. That's how most us the old timers started. Not everyone is willing to dish out $100+ just to try a game.
How much did it cost in mid-70s dollars? Adjusting for inflation, is that around $100? Just curious.
LOL... I think its was around $20 at the time. The price of a hard cover book. I'm "guestimating" the new red box should be around $40-45. Over that less fortunate kids should find someone who has the hardcover books or go to the librairy.
The general increase of the price of books is a factor here, too. When I was a kid, I could buy a pulp novel for $5, and that's $5 Canadian. Today, a paperback that costs less than $20 is rare.
WOW where do you live? In Montreal prices are around $10-$12 CDN+taxes at the book store.
Old School: from Chainmail to AD&D2E. WotC is far from old school. However, I just read that WotC is rereleasing the red box. lol, what'll be next - blue box? Looks like Wizards is tryin' to modernize old school gaming. Best of luck.
Actualy the redbox was an excellent product. A low cost entry into D&D. Rules, one module and a set of dei. That's how most us the old timers started. Not everyone is willing to dish out $100+ just to try a game.
Ahh yes, good times back when - I still got my original sets. Nothing beats the first time around. I'll pass on picking them up again.
you might be OldSchool
If you look at what a character brings to the party beyond what they do in Combat/CombatAssist,
you might be OldSchool
If you can play a character that still allows Self Preservation to influence their choice of actions,
you might be OldSchool
If you can roleplay character types other than Combatants,
you might be OldSchool
If you look at what a character brings to the party beyond what they do in Combat/CombatAssist,
you might be OldSchool
If you can play a character that still allows Self Preservation to influence their choice of actions,
you might be OldSchool
Did Character Optimization exist back then?
At least, that was my experience of it. I can only speak for myself, really.
If you have ever "lost your paladin status", you are probably old school.
If negatives to your character's AC get you excited, you're probably old school.
If your D12 has rounded edges, you're probably old school.
If you've ever planned an ambush based on rounds till your spell goes off, you're probably old school.
If your first instinct as a spellcaster is to stay as far away from the enemy as possible, you're probably old school.
If you've ever asked if the DM allowed parrying, you're probably old school.
If you've ever played a character with a 18/xx strength value, you're probably old school.
If you instinctively want to make a Bend Bars/Lift Gates roll when your character is captured, you might be old school.
And, if you've ever rolled on a table for punching and wrestling effects, you're probably old school. Bonus points if you got a KO in one round.
Did Character Optimization exist back then?
Yeah. If you thought your character was going to live long enough to break the level cap, play a human. And...pick the weapon that does the most damage if you're a fighter-type. That's all I can think of unless you're talking 2e and playing with some or all of the various supplements.
Oh wait. You could just make sure every character of yours that you don't like dies in the first fight, then roll a new one. Eventually you will break the curve with abnormally high ability scores. Then you will try to keep him and he will die anyway, and then you start the process all over. Would that be considered powergaming?
You ARE old school if you still give out XPs for treasure...!
I forgot how to calculate THAC0
Your THAC0 - opponent's AC = number on the d20 you have to meet or beat to hit.
Example: Your THAC0 is 18, and your opponent has an AC of 8, you have to roll a 10 or higher to hit. (18-8=10)
For all the youngins: THAC0 stands for "To-Hit Armor Class 0." And back in those days AC went down, and a good AC was a negative number. It really wasn't as hard as it sounds (and many people make it out to be) to calculate.
We always played with
THAC0 - Attack Roll = AC that you hit
Much more fluid during play.
The intention existed even if the rules didn't allow much of it.
AD&D Bard.
Fighter/Thief/Druid with all the strengths of each class and no drawbacks or gimp in power thanks to the nutty multiclassing rules.
The intention existed even if the rules didn't allow much of it.
AD&D Bard.
Fighter/Thief/Druid with all the strengths of each class and no drawbacks or gimp in power thanks to the nutty multiclassing rules.
Well before you could attain any form of uberpower with the OAD&D Bard you need before hand to suffer through at least 5 levels of fighter (18,000xps)+5 levels of thief (10,000xps). Quite a slow process with many chances to die before becoming a Bard.
Power gamers aren't that patient usualy...LOL
Actualy the redbox was an excellent product. A low cost entry into D&D. Rules, one module and a set of dei. That's how most us the old timers started. Not everyone is willing to dish out $100+ just to try a game.
How much did it cost in mid-70s dollars? Adjusting for inflation, is that around $100? Just curious.
LOL... I think its was around $20 at the time. The price of a hard cover book. I'm "guestimating" the new red box should be around $40-45. Over that less fortunate kids should find someone who has the hardcover books or go to the librairy.
We we wrong. The NEW RedBox will sell for $20USD. That's certainly a marketing decision to bring younger players into the game.
www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
Old school is 36+, with soft polyhedrons so scarce and low-budget you had to color the numbers in with a wax crayon and wipe away the access with a rag. Old school is a handful of chits in a styrofoam cup in place of dice. Old school is a worn out copy of DEITIES & DEMIGODS with Cthulhu and Melnibonean deities intact.
New School is a "role playing game" with no friends. Computers, messageboards, and PbP's in lieu of just "a pencil and your imagination". Neither is really wrong, they're both extensions of the same shared love. You can be 16 and still be "old school". If you have a solid ebay buying account, you too can be old school. If you train, practice and dedicate yourself you can teach yourself "old school" values. If you've ever taken the time to play through a D&D book by somebody named "Gary Gygax" that's old school. If you've ever played TEMPLE of ELEMENTAL EVIL or I6:RAVENLOFT... in their original forms... you too are old school.
In conclusion, it's not just a matter of numbers or experience. Old school is paying your dues, respecting your elders and learning the history of the game. But whether new school, old school, true school or somewhere in between - the love remains the same.
peace,
MSD
Old School is measured in years, but by the same token "old school" is a state of mind.
Old school is 36+, with soft polyhedrons so scarce and low-budget you had to color the numbers in with a wax crayon and wipe away the access with a rag. Old school is a handful of chits in a styrofoam cup in place of dice. Old school is a worn out copy of DEITIES & DEMIGODS with Cthulhu and Melnibonean deities intact.
New School is a "role playing game" with no friends. Computers, messageboards, and PbP's in lieu of just "a pencil and your imagination". Neither is really wrong, they're both extensions of the same shared love. You can be 16 and still be "old school". If you have a solid ebay buying account, you too can be old school. If you train, practice and dedicate yourself you can teach yourself "old school" values. If you've ever taken the time to play through a D&D book by somebody named "Gary Gygax" that's old school. If you've ever played TEMPLE of ELEMENTAL EVIL or I6:RAVENLOFT... in their original forms... you too are old school.
In conclusion, it's not just a matter of numbers or experience. Old school is paying your dues, respecting your elders and learning the history of the game. But whether new school, old school, true school or somewhere in between - the love remains the same.
peace,
MSD
Nice post. Brings back a LOT of memories. As I was reading through this thread, the first thing that came to mind were my original dice from the magenta D&D boxed set. Very ugly pea green, with a yellow crayon to fill in the numbers.
I've played I6: Ravenloft twice myself and run it at least 7 times. None of those parties finished it.
I was lucky enough to start with D&D in about '78, since some friends had it. I got my first AD&D hardcovers right when they came out, followed by the magenta Basic set. With no internet, we had no way of knowing the two were very different games, which added to our confusion. And we LOVED it. By junior high school, we had figured it out and were playing semi-regularly. We played in the same campaign for nearly 10 years, ravaging Greyhawk as we went along. About half of the starting characters made it through, mostly intact.
Over 30 years later, the guys I started gaming with back in elementary school are still my best friends.
D&D to me will always mean 1st or 2nd edition. 3rd Ed. I avoided. 3.5 I tried out simply because some co-workers asked me to play (it was okay). 4E seems WAY too dumbed-down for me to even attampt to play (I partially read through the books).
4E seems WAY too dumbed-down for me to even attampt to play (I partially read through the books).
I am glad to see both old school and new school gamers can agree on this
.That's right...no minis. That is the essence of what pen and paper gaming means.
I remember those oh-so "out of it" adults would walk into the room while we kids were playing and ask "Where is the game board?" to which we would reply "There is no board."
"Well how do you play it without a board, you know, like Monopoly?"
"We don't need a board. It's all in our imagination!"
The unspoken truth about old schoolers is that we are all the beneficiaries of circumstance, we were born at the right time. So it's not fair to say "you can't be because you didn't." Any and all newer gamers would be old schoolers too if only you were born a decade or two earlier. What's more, it isn't too late! Just as it's not too late for Led Zeppelin to become your favorite band, newer gamers can become old schoolers too if you give the old rules a try. There is no shortage of original D&D material from any edition you have interest in on eBay. Just do some research www.acaeum.com/ and start bidding.
My first (and still my favorite) D&D experience was Moldvay Basic D&D and The Keep on the Borderlands. Yet at the same time, I have no claim to the bragging rights others enjoy as I didn't enter the hobby with the Little Brown Box edition (I was only 3) , nor the Holmes Basic D&D rules.
Funny thing is, I've played every edition of D&D from 81 onwards... and like them ALL!
Yes, I admit it, I play 4e and ENJOY it. I played 3e and ENJOYED it. But as I've stated, none of it compares to the original red box Basic Set and the Caves of Chaos!
......and NO MINIS!
If you have played D&D WITHOUT MINIATURES, you might be Old School.That's right...no minis. That is the essence of what pen and paper gaming means.
I remember those oh-so "out of it" adults would walk into the room while we kids were playing and ask "Where is the game board?" to which we would reply "There is no board."
"Well how do you play it without a board, you know, like Monopoly?"
"We don't need a board. It's all in our imagination!"
Actually, D&D was designed for use with minis from the get-go. (In AD&D the numbers for movement rate were inches/squares/hexes you moved in the table/grid/hexboard). It was spawned from miniature wargaming and that was one of the elements it retained. The difference is they weren't as nessecary, and so since a lot of gamers didn't use them, they forget it WAS designed with them in mind.
If you have played D&D WITHOUT MINIATURES, you might be Old School.That's right...no minis. That is the essence of what pen and paper gaming means.
I remember those oh-so "out of it" adults would walk into the room while we kids were playing and ask "Where is the game board?" to which we would reply "There is no board."
"Well how do you play it without a board, you know, like Monopoly?"
"We don't need a board. It's all in our imagination!"
Actually, D&D was designed for use with minis from the get-go. (In AD&D the numbers for movement rate were inches/squares/hexes you moved in the table/grid/hexboard). It was spawned from miniature wargaming and that was one of the elements it retained. The difference is they weren't as nessecary, and so since a lot of gamers didn't use them, they forget it WAS designed with them in mind.
Yep! We used pennies, nickels and dimes from the get go until we could afford our first set of Ral Partha pweter miniatures. A box of 8 Orcs ! We must have killed them a 1000 times each. We also used Squad Leader's hexagone board tiles for "wilderness" combat.
You ARE old school if you remember that the range of spells and range weapons tripled when you were outside the dungeon.
You ARE old school if you remember that the range of spells and range weapons tripled when you were outside the dungeon.
*hangs his head in shame*
You ARE old school if you remember that the range of spells and range weapons tripled when you were outside the dungeon.
Yep.
Same number, only the unit changed.
Indoor ranges were in feet... outdoor ranges were in yards.
"Get me my walker, DAMNIT!"