One interesting element of the 4e rules is that the various bonuses are improve in parallel to each other rather than diverging. By adding a bonus based on your level (e.g. half level in almost all cases) as a common progress mechanic each the relative difference in the characters' abilities remain mostly the same regardless of level.
(If this has already been discussed in the "4e for Modern" thread, then read on at risk of seeing me try to reinvent the wheel...)
I was thinking something along the lines of the following: Each class gets a basic bonus to their attack, defense and saves and these all have linear level progression adding the character's level, or half, or one third or whatever fits the limit of the system.
For example: Instead of the Strong, Fast and Smart heroes progressing their base attack bonus at different speeds (+1, +3/4 and +1/2 per class level, respectively) the characters instead gain a basic class bonus to their attack rolls (e.g. +2, +1 and +0, respectively) and also add a common bonus derived from their character level.
-DF
but I dont follow what you are proposing
the characters instead gain a basic class bonus to their attack rolls (e.g. +2, +1 and +0, respectively) and also add a common bonus derived from their character level.
I dont get it....
just once the Combat class gets a +2 where the Non-Com gets a +0
so at 15th level the combat guy is only 10% better at combat than the librarian
(if I understand that they each would get the same as they level)
ok, maybe I'm still waiting for the coffee to kick in,
but I dont follow what you are proposing
I dont get it....
just once the Combat class gets a +2 where the Non-Com gets a +0
so at 15th level the combat guy is only 10% better at combat than the librarian
(if I understand that they each would get the same as they level)
First off, "10% better" is a bit misleading. Against a DC of 10, a +0 to the roll will succeed 55% of the time (10-20 success range) and a +2 to the roll will succeed 65% (8-20 sucess range). While the difference here is 10 per-centage points, the +2 expands the success range by approximately 18%.
The higher the DC the more impact the improved bonus has. In the most extreme situation, i.e. DC 20, the character with a +2 bonus is three times as likely to succeed (18-20 success range).
Anyway: the preconception here isn't that the soldier character should be better at fighting than the librarian. It's obvious that in this area the soldier should have an advantage as represented in this case by a difference in attack bonus. I don't think it's fair to say that this advantage is diminished even if it remains the same at level 1 as it does at level 10.
I feel it may be better to see the character's advantage in light of the current challenge rather than his current character level.
-DF
and the guy is +20
your analysis is out the window
A guy with a +2 has odds of success 10% more likely than the guy with +0
It is more a problem with Librarians getting better at gunplay by gaining librarian XP & levels at the same rate as Stabby McGee or Sarge. After years of stabbing folks, you are +12 at it, and the librarian is +10... and later you are a murderous expert vet with +22 and MsRogers is +20 from all that DeweyFiling XP
You have made the observation that noncombat classes dont gain combat value at the same rate as combat classes.
well, yeah... they are noncombat classes
the big problem is that folks these days think that all gaming must be combat
whereas there is nothing wrong with having a party of a Librarian, a Nurse, a Mechanic and a NetworkAdmin. And not one of them carrys a weapon or armor. And that is still role playing gaming.
the big problem is that folks these days think that all gaming must be combat
whereas there is nothing wrong with having a party of a Librarian, a Nurse, a Mechanic and a NetworkAdmin. And not one of them carrys a weapon or armor. And that is still role playing gaming.
Yes, this. Seriously. My resistance to 4e is precisely this kind of thinking, that everyone has to be equally effective in combat, as if combat is the only important part of the game. If you want to play a combat-simulation game, then please do so, with my compliments, and just don't bother taking any class that isn't combat-competent. There are lots to choose from. In a combat-focused game, there isn't much point in giving the librarian combat skills when you can, instead, just build a combat character with some research skills (difficult by not impossible under the present rules).
If, however, you want to play a game with other elements, then you might as well leave the various non-combat classes as they are.
When playing d20 Gilligans Island,
why would we give the professor a +18BAB, that we have never seen him even consider using? Would MaryAnne get a +19BAB from Rural cornfed classes being heartier than Harvard classes? Which means Skipper would have a +20BAB as a old navy man.
+1 vs. +3/4 vs. +1/2
or
+2 vs. +1 vs +0?
That's evening out the numbers, which I guess is cool if you live in a world where Tables don't exist, and nothing wrong with some simplification, but the actual significant difference is what?
If the argument is that the Smart Hero should suddenly be getting the same BAB as a Strong Hero, then I would tell you no, that is crazy good sir?
If the argument is that the Smart Hero should suddenly be getting the same BAB as a Strong Hero, then I would tell you no, that is crazy good sir?
That is not what I am saying.
The idea is that the at level 1 the Smart Hero has a +0 BAB and the Strong Hero a +X BAB. At a higher level the Smart Hero has a BAB of +5 and the Strong Hero adds +(5 + X): the diff remaining constant. So we're not talking about giving them the same BAB, just that they improve at the same rate.
With this in mind the GM can scale the to allow the librarian to still have a meaningful chance of contributing and still make it a meaningful challenge to the soldier. There's a difference betwwen hanging back and taking pot-shots at the enemies and just hanging back, twiddling your thumbs.
Remember that the soldier will have lots of soldiering abilities like proficiencies and weapon focus, and also be equipped appropriately. These will make him a better combat character simply by expanding his repertoire. The librarian won't even have the personal firearms proficiency. Unless you've made some sort of combat librarian, in which case it makes sense for the character to actually be able to do some damage.
-DF
With this in mind the GM can scale the to allow the librarian to still have a meaningful chance of contributing and still make it a meaningful challenge to the soldier. There's a difference betwwen hanging back and taking pot-shots at the enemies and just hanging back, twiddling your thumbs.
and the difference between standing guard out by the van while we work on the mystery,
or just sitting in the van playing with your machinegun while the rest of the team developes the antidote to the plague / cyberstalks the BBG / researches the Templars code (note: no, you dont fight Templars, they have been dead for centuries)
it seems you are trying to make noncombat classes become combat classes,
and they have already ruined Burgler that way with Fast
That is not what I am saying.
The idea is that the at level 1 the Smart Hero has a +0 BAB and the Strong Hero a +X BAB. At a higher level the Smart Hero has a BAB of +5 and the Strong Hero adds +(5 + X): the diff remaining constant. So we're not talking about giving them the same BAB, just that they improve at the same rate.
With this in mind the GM can scale the to allow the librarian to still have a meaningful chance of contributing and still make it a meaningful challenge to the soldier. There's a difference between hanging back and taking pot-shots at the enemies and just hanging back, twiddling your thumbs.
Remember that the soldier will have lots of soldiering abilities like proficiencies and weapon focus, and also be equipped appropriately. These will make him a better combat character simply by expanding his repertoire. The librarian won't even have the personal firearms proficiency. Unless you've made some sort of combat librarian, in which case it makes sense for the character to actually be able to do some damage.
-DF
You're right, a standard librarian won't have combat skills. A standard librarian will have the skills to tell the combat monster that non-silvered bullets will be useless, and the research skills to figure out where the BBEG lives, and other stuff that is relevant outside of combat. You're trying to turn straight-up librarians into multi-class fighter-librarians. Fine, if that's your game, create your character as a fighter-librarian. But don't remove the option of playing a librarian for the rest of us.
A lot of the d20 Modern non-combat classes also tend to have ways to buff allies or debuff enemies, which isn't a function of BAB either. Being useful in a fight isn't just about being able to stick lead or steel into something.
It appears that the OP is looking for the consistency in relative power that the parallel bonuses gives. From a certain perspective (when you're doing a combat medium to combat heavy game for instance) this is preferable since then you can give the gun nut a challenge while not relegating the civvies to lobbing grenades and making plans.
I can also see how in a combat medium to combat light game, you'll want the combat guy to be able to shine when it's combat and hot have the civvies crowding in on their spotlight (since they're going to just be muscle for the rest of the adventure).
Of course, in most of the games I've played almost everyone has been at a 1/2 BAB rate anyway. It's only the Charismatic Hero who invested in Dexterity, PFP, and Precise Shot that excels in combat (well, the grenades don't hurt), everyone else isn't as good (and being a Chaismatic, he's also got skills).
In our party,
Princess can take one enemy out of the fight in the first round, almost every time.
As a Charismatic hero, she Surrenders to one of them, and then 1 or 2 of them have to hold her while the rest of us fight. BigAl is far less dependable with his Axe for taking guys out in the first round. By the time the fight is over, Princess has already mentioned the rate that her captors team have been dieing, and usually has him surrender to her
The gal with no weapon or armor hardly ever gets attacked, cause she surrenders before they can attack her.... why should she need BAB?
You have made the observation that noncombat classes dont gain combat value at the same rate as combat classes.
well, yeah... they are noncombat classes
the big problem is that folks these days think that all gaming must be combat
whereas there is nothing wrong with having a party of a Librarian, a Nurse, a Mechanic and a NetworkAdmin. And not one of them carrys a weapon or armor. And that is still role playing gaming.
This is it. The truth is that the classes are balanced in total abilities, and a good GM will balance the game to take advantage of everyone's respective abilities. There should also be some discussion between the GM and the players before the first play session to determine how everyone wants to balance skills and kicking in the door.
The gal with no weapon or armor hardly ever gets attacked, cause she surrenders before they can attack her.... why should she need BAB?
Lets see...
GM: Four thugs in balaclavas toting MP5 burst in through the window. Roll for intiative.
Captain McStrong: Grarr! I start shootn' back.
Princess: I surrender!
GM: A thug grabs Princess and forces her to her knees. "Drop your gun, Captain McStrong, or your girl gets it!"
Princess "I'm not his-"
GM: 4 points of damage as the thug rudely interrupts your interjection by ramming you head into the concrete floor.
Captain McStrong: Grarr! Never give up! Never surrender!
GM: The thug shoots Princess dead.
Princess "But I'm not his-"
GM: Hush. Dead characters don't speak, they leak.
----
I take it this *doesn't* happen a lot in your games then.
-DF
Princess "I'm not his-"
GM: 4 points of damage as the thug rudely interrupts your interjection by ramming you head into the concrete floor.
oh, I see the way you play Charismatic Heros is that they suk at negotiation & diplomacy
well, there's your problem right there
If your negotiatiors cant even talk a thug out of shooting her, according to Darwin she should get shot so she wont pollute the gene pool with her bad negotiation/diplomacy genes.
No wonder you need to give noncombat classes combat ability,
you skip the noncombat stuff & just shoot the skilled negotiator PCs.... making Diplomacy skill as valuable as Knowlege Tactics
"These are not the driods y.."
Call HQ, tell them we shot the guy with the droids we are looking for.
yeah, I see how combat skills are soo important now
1) Princess and here friend are assaulted by hostiles.
2) Princess surrenders.
3) Rather than killing Princess outright the thugs offer to let her live if her companion surrenders as well.
4) MacStrong declines.
5) Princess dies.
I cant say I see much room for excercising diplomacy in this rather protracted situation.
Regardless, it seems to be a pointless excercise since you obviously feel the Smart/Charismatic Heroes' place is in the kitchen and making the fighter jocks look good at homecoming.
-DF
2) Princess surrenders.
3) Rather than killing Princess outright the thugs offer to let her live if her companion surrenders as well.
4) Princess for some unkown reason fails a negotiation with a dumb mook fighter and lets herself be killed rather than do her job?????
She doesnt fight, she doesnt sneak, she doesnt build... she is wholey centered on just talking folks into doing what she wants.... and yet you fail to accept that maybe she wont suk at it.... vs some dumb gunbunny!!!!
again, why do you asume the Charismatic hero is INCAPABLE of talking her way out of a situation? I understand if you are used to playing combat classes that have horrible negotiating and diplomacy skills, but have you ever considered that just maybe the charismatic PC doesnt suk at the one thing that class is built for?
Regardless, it seems to be a pointless excercise since you obviously feel the Smart/Charismatic Heroes' place is in the kitchen and making the fighter jocks look good at homecoming.
hardly
Why fight our way into the corporate headquarters, when she can get us invited.
First you charm guys for info, THEN interrogate them as a prisoner (the other way round dont work so good)
What is she doing with a party of thugs in the first place? Campaign PLOT. Most of the time, she is the leader (and no, she doesnt Heal for you 4e folks)
BigAl: Well, thats it, game over.... with the hellgate open its the end of the world. You know what that means?
Jimmy: Apocalypse Party?
BigAl: Sure, why not. You get the booze, I'll go tell everyone... uh, everyone still alive that is.
Princess: I can now say just how much I have hated getting stuck with you guys.
Jimmy: Hey, dont let the end of the world get to ya. Lighten up for cryin out loud.
She doesnt fight, she doesnt sneak, she doesnt build... she is wholey centered on just talking folks into doing what she wants.... and yet you fail to accept that maybe she wont suk at it.... vs some dumb gunbunny!!!!
Oh, I'm quite sure that she could have them all dancing and bringing her gifts if this was successfully turned into a social encounter rather than combat encounter. And the PCs do get to make that choice: Surrender or Fight. And Princess figures she can talk to these guys.
However, Princess isn't operating in a vaccum here. While the player would like to use her Dimplomacy skill to defuse the situation that opportunity evaporates as soon as the Captain turns the situation into a combat encounter.
-DF
-that it's in their interest to help her
-that she is clearly a superieor force, and they should give up
-that she'll shower cash and prizes on them if they let them go
-that the people they're working for are vile monsters (or whatever)
And that's just Diplomacy. Toss Bluff and Intimidate on there, and you've got some stuff to work with. The problem here seems to be that you're assuming that as soon as a fight starts, all the Charisma-based stuff is utterly useless, and therefore (my guess is that) you have your villains ignore all such attempts. Shoot first and silence the Charismatic hero. If you're doing that, then you're metagaming and short-circuiting the point of a Charismatic.
Now, all that being said, if you want to play a pure combat game, then by all means! Do not let any of us stop you. The rules are all in place for you to do that. No need to change a word of them. Just do us all a favour and warn your players first that it's that kind of game, or else someone might very well take a Charismatic and find that he or she really is useless in the world you've created, and that's just no fun.
Actually, no. That's not true.
It may be that our GM styles differ, but this is my take on it: When dealing with a group of PCs the NPCs aren't naturally disposed to open negotiations with one PC while the other PCs are doing their very best to kill them.
If the PCs act in a unified manner and pull together for a diplomatic solution then things are a lot easier for the Charismatic Hero, but it usually only takes one trigger-happy player to turn an encounter into a combat encounter.
What should Princess have done different? Well, nothing really. If the player's intentions were indeed to attempt to resolve the situation peacefully then surrendering would put her in the right position: a non-threat.
What should the GM have done differently? Well, he could have ignored the consistency of the scen and broken it down to a character-vs-character interaction where each group member acts isolated from the consequences of the other's actions. This doesn't really fit my personal GM'ing style, and I think most would agree. Instead he had the bad guys do bad-guy things, such as threatening to kill a hostage unless their enemies complied with their demands.
What could the Captain have done differently? Well, he could have surrendered as well, or at the very least taken actions that did not escalate the conflict.
-DF
Now, all that being said, if you want to play a pure combat game, then by all means! Do not let any of us stop you. The rules are all in place for you to do that. No need to change a word of them. Just do us all a favour and warn your players first that it's that kind of game, or else someone might very well take a Charismatic and find that he or she really is useless in the world you've created, and that's just no fun.
yeah, what he said
If you are in a combat centered campaign, dont play noncombat classes
Noncombat classes intentionally trade away combat ability to be better at noncombat activities. If you dont want to make that trade, welcom to the world of CrossClass and StartOcc skills, or Multiclassing so your dumb fighter aint quite as dumb as the other dumb fighters when it comes to anything other than fighting...... which apparently doesnt happen in your games.
I reccomend you switch to 4e
they have done away with noncombat and roleplaying anything other than killers,
your group should do well in it
It may be that our GM styles differ, but this is my take on it: When dealing with a group of PCs the NPCs aren't naturally disposed to open negotiations with one PC while the other PCs are doing their very best to kill them.
Then, all due respect, you're the one making Diplomacy useless. The whole point of the skill is to convince someone who's hostile that they shouldn't fight you. If, as a GM, you've simply decided that they're hostile and that's not going to change, then I don't see why anyone in one of your games would ever bother taking ranks in that skill, in which case you're playing a pure combat game. Just admit, embrace it, and have fun.
Then, all due respect, you're the one making Diplomacy useless. The whole point of the skill is to convince someone who's hostile that they shouldn't fight you. If, as a GM, you've simply decided that they're hostile and that's not going to change, then I don't see why anyone in one of your games would ever bother taking ranks in that skill, in which case you're playing a pure combat game. Just admit, embrace it, and have fun.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery ;)
remind not to take hte following if i play with DF:Charm Talent Tree and Fast-Talk Talent Tree..better yet tell me that I shouldn't take the THE CHARISMATIC HERO class
But perhaps I'm repeating myself at this point.
we can help get him on track for better non-combat classes
Yes, give Strong Full BAB +2, and Charismatic get FullBAB+0
Give Charismatics 2 skill / level
Give Charismatics the Gun bonus feats
and we no longer have a Charismatic that is the suk at fighting.... we have the class that will replace Strong/MA as the ultimate BAB sniper
and that is what we are trying to make, cut the non-combat anchors of Charismatic and make him a SuperSniper ala BAB king: we now have a +18BAB with Gunfeats class with 2skill/lvl
Smarts get Savant Combat, Savant MeleeToHit, and Savant RangedToHit
to go with the Smart FullBAB+0
and the new Smart 2Skill / level
Even the Dedicated class will be cool once again when we add the Dedicated Hero
WankerSlap harm effect Talent Tree
.... 1Damage/level - 2dmg/L - 3dmg/L Touch Attack
and just give up the skills down to 1/level and no other Talent trees to choose
No more laughing at the non-combat classses
so they can kick copious amounts of ass compared to some dumb fighter
Seriously, though, it's not about "recovery."
it was a lame attemp at humor...
EDIT: What about the talents..should hte be kept or re-done?
Are you quite on the level here? Look again:
1) Princess and here friend are assaulted by hostiles.
2) Princess surrenders.
3) Rather than killing Princess outright the thugs offer to let her live if her companion surrenders as well.4) MacStrong declines.
5) Princess dies.
4) Gunbunny takes advantage of the thug being effectively locked in a grapple with Princess, and since he has the Precise Shot feat he shoots the bastard dead with ease. Mango Smash charges the thugs that weren't grappling Princess. Since Princess isn't grappling anymore, she isn't pinned anymore... and probably gains a defense bonus if she's smart and drops prone.
Fixed.
I think that's called teamwork, but maybe I'm wrong >.>
Then, all due respect, you're the one making Diplomacy useless. The whole point of the skill is to convince someone who's hostile that they shouldn't fight you. If, as a GM, you've simply decided that they're hostile and that's not going to change, then I don't see why anyone in one of your games would ever bother taking ranks in that skill, in which case you're playing a pure combat game. Just admit, embrace it, and have fun.
There is a difference between simply having a hostile attitude and being commited to fighting. If a person you considered your best friend in the whole world starts shooting at you, the proper course of action is to deal with the immediate threat. First make sure he can't hurt you, then attempt to open a dialog.
As a rule of thumb: If the group makes an effort to resolve a social encounter then they are certainly entitled to make an attempt. If they are involved in a fight and the group makes an effort to calm things down and talk, that's good too. But if that one jerk decides to keep fighting, then they're back to square one.
I mean, what sort of credibility does Princess have if the Captain is going berserk 30 ft. away? "Don't mind him, he'll calm down when you're all dead!"
-DF
Fixed.
I think that's called teamwork, but maybe I'm wrong >.>
Sounds like a great plan. Surprisingly similar to the one you "fixed".
Oh, wait. they're the same and somebody needs to roll up a new character through no fault of her own.
-DF
As a rule of thumb: If the group makes an effort to resolve a social encounter then they are certainly entitled to make an attempt. If they are involved in a fight and the group makes an effort to calm things down and talk, that's good too. But if that one jerk decides to keep fighting, then they're back to square one.
Just what do you think the army & police do when 1 member of the opposition surrenders while the others keep fighting? The cops just keep shooting at the unarmed and hands up guy? The US army just shoots the unarmed white flag guy standing around cause the other guys in a foxhole are shooting at them?
It is exactly what we are talking about, but done by the other side.... by the guys that DONT have a bunch of levels in a charisma class. How can a white flag possibly work on the battlefield in your world, just because a fireteam is waiving a white flag & throwng away their weapons is not going to stop the US forces from gunning them down cause there are still active enemy in that fireteams brigade.
You have not tried to play the They're Evil card,
you have been saying diplomacy can not work after shots fired. And that is entirely the wrong way both reality and the game are setup. The game IS setup for charismatic to do their charismatic thing even in combat, rather than as you sugest that they sit down and read a book in combat cause they have a low BAB
I mean, what sort of credibility does Princess have if the Captain is going berserk 30 ft. away? "Don't mind him, he'll calm down when you're all dead!"
Yeah, something similar to that
"You do realize Mongo had to kill the previous 3 squads your size to get here, and he wants to kill the next few squads we will encounter after he kills your sqaud.... maybe you should think about how committed you are to your boss vs how much you'd like us to just tie you up rather than have Mongo gut ya with his JerseyAxe when he is done killing your coworkers"
note, Mongo is not his name, its BigAl.
But part of being a successful Charismtic is Disinformation too. The function of not killing everyone is to leave one to tell the tale.... you just have to be sure you are the one taking poetic license with the tale he tells. We are from 'detriot', but MrMook will tell his bosses it was Mongo from Jersey
How much disinformation can one perform when it is a blackflag campaign?
Again, seems your campaign is just removing yet more role playing that would interfere with the wargaming you do. Sometimes 30-50% of our game night time has been spent on character dialog without dice, and that is a good gaming session: our PCs actually have character and interact as such in playin their roles.... the role of non-combat clssed Princess is not to be Queen Of Death
Sounds like a great plan. Surprisingly similar to the one you "fixed".
Oh, wait. they're the same and somebody needs to roll up a new character through no fault of her own.
-DF
Really? The only guy I see making new characters is the BBEG, rolling up a new thug. ;)
On the "talk to the badguy front".
I don't think you understand that a charismatic hero makes a very GOOD diversion because she's very convincing at it. Even if the badguy puts up the "Do this or the girl dies" scenario, she SHOULD be able to talk at him to stall him (Charm+Favor), or cause him to make a mistake (Fast-Talk+Dazzle). That's why she's a charismatic HERO, not the useless princess. If you're making your enemy's attitudes static, you're gimping the charismatic hero. End of story.
Finally: The guy, because he's holding onto the girl, is in a grapple with her. He can't use anything bigger than a ligh(small) weapon to attack her while doing this, SO he can't use a McAwesome gun to execute her. Also, she isn't helpless, so he can't insta-kill her.
If the CH is any higher than, say, 3rd level, the only way the littlegun threatens her is the possibility of breaching her MDT. The shot doesn't automatically hit, so it's a far cry from the CH's fate being sealed.
Note: Bait'N'Switch isn't the only tactic in the Charismatic Hero's arsenal. She can also buff her allies with the Inspiration talent tree. Backstabbist's example above might also become a use of "Inspiration" next round (because the only effect it achieves the first round is making the mook crap his pants.)
If Princess happens to be a Charismatic/Personality of decent level, she has a chance of simple eliminating one guy at a time from the fight (Winning Smile+high charisma= a very convincing "Get out of here!")
BBEG and thugs had had the good guys surrounded so, the Charismatic Hero who had a 20 in the charisma stalled everyone long enough for the good guys to slip down into the sewer system by using Charm+Favor mainly saying how pretty she is and how one single bullet would destroy her beautyand how the thugs should target the BBEG cuz in her words "he's too ugly to let live and you all know it"
btw Nice CT back ;)
Thanx TS
.... I should stat something to celebrate ;)
Maybe a Synergy table for Computer Use & Reputation/CharismaBonus for YouTube Divas and Podcast V-Bloggers
This reminds me of the second game I ever ran with D20 modern, I wasn't totally sure on how a charismatic hero would work in combat,but it was awesome.
BBEG and thugs had had the good guys surrounded so, the Charismatic Hero who had a 20 in the charisma stalled everyone long enough for the good guys to slip down into the sewer system by using Charm+Favor ...
From this I understand that while the Charismatic Hero was doing her thing the other PCs were retreating rather than attacking. Is this correct?
-DF
From this I understand that while the Charismatic Hero was doing her thing the other PCs were retreating rather than attacking. Is this correct?
-DF
nope
2) Princess surrenders.
3) Rather than killing Princess outright the thugs offer to let her live if her companion surrenders as well.
4) MacStrong declines.
5) Princess dies.XXX No, princess comes up with a well crafted story about how MacStrong is taking her hostage, and she's so greatfull to be rescued her father will reward everyone handsomly if they'll take her alive and she'll be very.. VERY greatfull to the one who rescues her from this muscle bound brute...
Actually, no. That's not true. You can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action (by taking a -10), and as such, you can do it in combat...
You can do that?
*looks up skill on page 57*
You can do that! Oh, that's cool.:evillaugh
than to call for Parley
You can do that?
*looks up skill on page 57*
You can do that! Oh, that's cool.:evillaugh
Yes it is, especially considering how blinkin' powerful Diplomacy can be. You might even need to nerf it if you start using it in combat "too much" (whatever qualifies as "too much" for your table, obviously).
That said, you could also think of it as the Charismatic's offensive weapon in combat! Her "full-round attack" is "Don't you think I'm charming? Wouldn't you just hate to kill someone as awesome as me?"
That said, you could also think of it as the Charismatic's offensive weapon in combat! Her "full-round attack" is "Don't you think I'm charming? Wouldn't you just hate to kill someone as awesome as me?"
I had a player say that..see my above posting for what went down...
here is my agents card, call him for a photo shoot next week.... can we talk somewhere quieter about this?"
If the main stat bonuses became parallel, would we have to nerf non-combatant special abilities?
Of course I can't really use combatant and non-combatant anymore if stat bonuses are parallel. It's more like Guy and Guy+1. :P
The problem is multi-classing - the divergent class bonus tables do a better job at averaging the bonuses of a character with a a mix of combatant/non-combatant classes. In this, parallel progression is certainly better applied to fixed classes as is the case in D&D or even Star Wars.
-DF
Actually, no. That's not true. You can make a Diplomacy check as a full-round action (by taking a -10), and as such, you can do it in combat. Therefore, it's possible that a Charismatic hero, one who is specifically specialised in that sort of thing, could stare down a villain and convince him/her:
-that it's in their interest to help her
-that she is clearly a superieor force, and they should give up
-that she'll shower cash and prizes on them if they let them go
-that the people they're working for are vile monsters (or whatever)
Well, from what I can see in my book there is no mention of that sort of option, i.e. to take a Diplomacy check as a full-round action at a -10 penalty.
Perhaps you are thinking of the option to take 10 on Diplomacy checks rather than rolling the dice?
Edit: Ah, never mind. From the D&D 3.5 SRD:
Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a –10 penalty on the check.
So it's kinda an option.
-DF